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1st July 2018, 02:00 PM | #481 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Usual irrelevant ignorance of your citations.
The point of 29 June 2018 The Atheist: Do you really think that psychiatrists are in charge of psychiatric hospital security? was that your source was about hospital security, not psychiatry or psychiatrists ! 27 June 2018 The Atheist: Ignorance about "burden of proof" which is on the proposer, especially in science. Your assertion = you produce your evidence. |
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1st July 2018, 08:01 PM | #483 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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Haha!
I knew it. You go back and make the same erroneous assertions about what I've posted, while simultaneously not providing a scrap of evidence as to the effectiveness of the psychiatric industry. Legendary. |
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3rd July 2018, 03:35 PM | #484 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Does not understand I will not obey a totally ignorant demand
The repetition of ignorance is getting to be not a laughing matter.
27 June 2018 The Atheist: Ignorance about "burden of proof" which is on the proposer, especially in science. 4 July 2018 The Atheist: Does not understand I will not obey a totally ignorant demand for evidence for the effectiveness of psychiatry. Totally ignorant because the evidence for effective psychiatry is everywhere on the Internet and widely known. For example: Psychiatric medication
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People with bipolar disorder are helped by psychiatric medication and psychotherapy. etc. etc, Of course, it would be stupid to think that psychiatry is 100% effective. There are successes and failures of effectiveness, e.g. it is possible that antidepressants are only really effective against chronic depression. If we were to play the numbers game, I would guess that psychiatric treatment helps more people than it does not helps. |
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3rd July 2018, 05:16 PM | #485 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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Admission of defeat noted.
Cheers. (We all know some drugs work to an often-limited degree. A Wikipedia link is the best you can come up with pretty well says it all. No peer-reviewed studies, no comparisons...nothing.) Let me know if you ever decide to make a point rather than simply running off a load of ad hominems. Otherwise, I'd say my job is done. |
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4th July 2018, 06:11 AM | #486 |
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4th July 2018, 12:21 PM | #487 |
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4th July 2018, 03:44 PM | #488 |
Penultimate Amazing
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An "Admission of defeat noted" lie
5 July 2018 The Atheist: An "Admission of defeat noted" lie when my post has no such admission.
I even give easily found sources for the effectiveness of psychiatry. 5 July 2018 The Atheist: An obvious lie by quote mining my post to change its meaning. After I give the easily found sources for the effectiveness of psychiatry, I make a guess that the numbers of patients helped by psychiatry is greater then the number of patients not helped. It is a guess because I do not know the actual numbers. 27 June 2018 The Atheist: Ignorance about "burden of proof" which is on the proposer, especially in science. 4 July 2018 The Atheist: Does not understand I will not obey a totally ignorant demand for evidence for the effectiveness of psychiatry. |
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4th July 2018, 03:52 PM | #489 |
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4th July 2018, 05:30 PM | #490 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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He didn't make it, obviously, but I figure if he's going to make false quotes, I'll play.
In your case, all I did was remove the ad hominem, so there's no problem there. In case you hadn't noticed, this is getting beyond absurd, and all because you refuse to post evidence. I'm over it. |
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4th July 2018, 05:40 PM | #491 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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They do no such thing.
Just in case you ever decide to post some actual evidence, here is the list of questions for nth time. I'll do it in bold - your continued unnecessary use of bolding makes me think you might attach some kind of importance to bolding, so I'll try it: A comparison of the advances in psychiatry, treatments and outcomes with the advances made in other medical fields in the past 50-70 years. That simple. Away you go. |
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4th July 2018, 06:40 PM | #492 |
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The probable violation of forum rules that jrhowell might report is making up an entire post from him.
Quote mining is not making up a false post. Quote mining is quoting parts of text so that the context is lost and the meaning distorted. He illustrated the lie by quote mining that you committed on my post. He distorted the meaning of your post by quote mining it. His text You left out a few key words while quoting Reality Check in your post above. cannot be quote mined to become your "I make up deceitful posts". |
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4th July 2018, 06:56 PM | #493 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Wrong. This is my post.
That Wikipedia text with references is the evidence that psychiatry is effective at decreasing the need for long-term hospitalization. The "leading treatments" text implies that psychiatric medication is more effective then other treatments. Your demand is ignorant because it is your assertion that psychiatry is effective and it is up to you to produce your evidence. 27 June 2018 The Atheist: Ignorance about "burden of proof" which is on the proposer, especially in science. Your demand is ignorant because the existence of the Wikipedia article with some psychiatry effectiveness is evidence that you have missed out basic research. |
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4th July 2018, 07:51 PM | #494 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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Here, I'll even show you how easy it is:
Quote:
And you complain about comparisons to another pseudoscience, Scientology. They seem to have more similarities than differences.
Quote:
Not Scientology this time, but the American Psychiatric Association. |
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4th July 2018, 09:20 PM | #495 |
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A lie about a "Effectiveness of Psychotherapy" paper
It is easy to see a lie and irrelevant rant.
5 July 2018 The Atheist: A lie about a "Effectiveness of Psychotherapy" paper when the paper states psychotherapy is effective ! What Research Says About the Effectiveness of Psychotherapy
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ETA: I was puzzled about the comment about meta-analysis being a new technique since I thought it had been around for a while. It turns out this is an on-line publication of a 1982 paper. That link is to PubMed which lists similar articles. Here are the first 2: Cognitive-behavioral therapy and psychodynamic psychotherapy: techniques, efficacy, and indications. (2006)
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5th July 2018, 04:22 PM | #496 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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Ad hominem replies on special out your way?
Claiming that short-term gains show the efficacy of the psychiatric industry, is nonsense, because it shows the opposite is in fact true. An advance would be creating long-term gains. Note the word "intensive". The industry wouldn't even exist if it couldn't do that. And what percentage of loonies do you think qualify for that kind of therapy, and more importantly, the cost of it? All for some short-term relief. Yippee! Unless you've been asleep for the past decade, you have to be aware that the NZ psychiatric industry isn't able to provide that kind of service, which is why over half the people in jail are actually just crazy. I have to say it astonishes me the attempted defence of the industry you're trying to put up. If you're not employed in the industry in some way, I'll be even more astonished, because the facts are well known that the industry is an immense failure.
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5th July 2018, 04:34 PM | #497 |
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A statement of fact about what you wrote is not ad hominem.
5 July 2018 The Atheist: A lie about a "Effectiveness of Psychotherapy" paper when the paper states psychotherapy is effective ! This is the paper and its abstract (the body needs paying for): What Research Says About the Effectiveness of Psychotherapy
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5th July 2018, 04:50 PM | #498 |
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A lie that "short-term" is short-term gains and shows ineffectiveness of psychiatry
7 July 2018 The Atheist: A lie that "short-term" is short-term gains and shows ineffectiveness of psychiatry.
It would be just ignorance if there was not the follow up lie. Even short-term gains would be some effectiveness of psychiatry because treatments can be repeated. It would be ignorant to label the cancer "industry" as ineffective because cancers recur! Intensive short-term dynamic psychotherapy The study shows that patients having as quickly as possible (short-term) psychodynamic psychotherapy benefit from the treatment. That is effective psychotherapy. That makes the use of STPP within psychiatry effective. The efficacy of short-term psychodynamic psychotherapy in specific psychiatric disorders: a meta-analysis.
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5th July 2018, 04:54 PM | #499 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The Atheist's evidence that psychiatry is effective is mounting
The evidence that you are providing that psychiatry is effective is going well. I am not providing any evidence:
27 June 2018 The Atheist: Ignorance about "burden of proof" which is on the proposer, especially in science. From The Atheist: What Research Says About the Effectiveness of Psychotherapy Similar articles: Cognitive-behavioral therapy and psychodynamic psychotherapy: techniques, efficacy, and indications. (2006) The efficacy of short-term psychodynamic psychotherapy in specific psychiatric disorders: a meta-analysis. (2004) |
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5th July 2018, 05:07 PM | #500 |
Penultimate Amazing
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A fantasy that the NZ prison system is the NZ psychiatric industry
7 July 2018 The Atheist: A fantasy that the NZ prison system is the NZ psychiatric industry and 2018 is 1999!
Psychiatrists have no control over the level of prison inmate care. The NZ government legislates and budgets prison inmate care. This is a 1999 study that recommends changes that may be in place making it irrelevant to 2018. National Study of Psychiatric Morbidity in NZ Prisons (1999) is an analysis of the mental disorders in NZ prison inmates done in 1999. Followed by recommendations for the prison system in 1999, including "a significant increase in mental health provision"" to be dome by the prison system. |
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6th July 2018, 02:34 AM | #501 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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You are disgustingly dishonest.
The fact that it was '99 has no relevance at all - the numbers are the same now and you know it. I imagine Corrections are too embarrassed to update it. I made no comment that the prison system is part of the psychiatric industry, but the number of mentally ill prisoners does exemplify the total and ongoing failure of the psychiatric industry. Your lack of evidence continues... |
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6th July 2018, 02:40 AM | #502 |
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Yep, that is very noticeable.
It seems pretty clear that you think the state of mental health is fine. It's equally clear you haven't got a clue, and are happy to see failure as success. Next up, you can show that black is white. Just don't cross any pedestrian crossings. |
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6th July 2018, 02:43 AM | #503 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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And just to show how dishonest you are, you quote a study and don't mention the conclusion:
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8th July 2018, 04:39 PM | #504 |
Penultimate Amazing
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A delusion that I know the current mental disorder in prisons statistics
Insults in relpy to
7 July 2018 The Atheist: A fantasy that the NZ prison system is the NZ psychiatric industry and 2018 is 1999! 2018 is not 1999. A recommendation in 1999 of "a significant increase in mental health provision" means that the numbers may have changed. I do not know whether the recommendation(s) were implemented or what effect they may have had. It is the citation of a report on the NZ prison system in a thread about psychiatry that makes a "fantasy that the NZ prison system is the NZ psychiatric industry". But if he wants it to be bad reading comprehension I will change it. The Atheist? 9 July 2018The Atheist: A delusion that I know the current statistics of mental disorders in prisons. I looked thru the web site he linked to and a later, related report is about the combination of drugs abuse and mental disorders. |
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8th July 2018, 04:50 PM | #505 |
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6 July 2018 The Atheist: The Atheist's evidence that psychiatry is effective is mounting
It is up to you to provide your evidence to support your assertion. I do not have to provide any evidence for or against your assertion. That you are doing that is your problem. |
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8th July 2018, 05:00 PM | #506 |
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A "don't mention the conclusion" lie
9 July 2018 The Atheist: A "don't mention the conclusion" lie
On the same page as his post: 5 July 2018 The Atheist: A lie about a "Effectiveness of Psychotherapy" paper when the paper states psychotherapy is effective !
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20th July 2018, 06:30 AM | #507 |
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Lauren Slater's new book __Blue Dreams__ might be a good reference for a critic of the practice of psychiatry -- not Scientologists.
What I can't tell on skimming this is whether there are finer points that she gets wrong. |
1st August 2018, 08:02 PM | #508 |
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1st August 2018, 08:59 PM | #509 |
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We have an inability to understand a news report.
A grieving mother tried to remember what she and her son were told about clozapine over a 20 year period since he was first given clozapine. She thinks that they were not told. Her son was an adult schizophrenic and may have not communicated the side effect details to her:
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If we look at the stories linked to the article then we find that this may be a problem stemming from the manufacturers, ...the manufacturers' official drug safety data sheets are completely out of date |
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1st August 2018, 09:32 PM | #510 |
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1st August 2018, 11:50 PM | #511 |
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Quote:
This is a bit like a psychiatrist saying take this tablet it will make you feel better. It does not matter what is in the tablet, how many you take or for what you take it. Of course we do know this approach works; the placebo effect is real. The huge market for homeopathic drugs prove this. This is why drugs have to be shown to work by double blind studies. Talking therapies are much less regulated than drug therapies. Talking therapies can be harmful; recovered memory therapy would be an example of a very harmful talking therapy. Talking therapies have a huge placebo effect, deliberately ineffective interventions designed to be placebos make people feel better. It is hard to design trials of talking therapy that avoid the placebo effect. To be clear I do think that e.g. cognitive behavioural therapy is effective and the evidence is that there is synergy between CBT and drug therapy. They should not be seen as mutually exclusive but as options to be chosen as appropriate. |
2nd August 2018, 02:34 AM | #512 |
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2nd August 2018, 02:39 AM | #513 |
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2nd August 2018, 05:48 AM | #514 |
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2nd August 2018, 03:29 PM | #515 |
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It is worse than that. No one knows who failed, if anyone. The article is on the perceived failure of maybe unknown practitioners, maybe drug manufacturers, maybe health agencies.
A mother does not recall being warned about the side effects of a drug. The word psychiatrist appears once in a list of health workers. The linked stories show that the side effects of the drug are not well documented by the drug manufacturers. |
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2nd August 2018, 03:40 PM | #516 |
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An irreverent to the thread news article about a perceived failure of unknown people
It was "we" as in everyone who can read and understand the article.
You linked to a news article that is not about the thread topic. There is no stated failure of psychiatry in that article. If only I had known my son's medication could kill To emphasize this: 3 August 2018 The Atheist: An irreverent to the thread news article about a perceived failure of unknown practitioners, drug manufacturers, or health agencies. 'Urgent action' needed over anti-psychotic drug clozapine following deaths
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2nd August 2018, 03:57 PM | #517 |
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A "held in a small cell in solitary confinement for 5 years" lie
3 August 2018 The Atheist: A "held in a small cell in solitary confinement for 5 years" lie.
8 June 2016: The reality of Ashley Peacock's seclusion (about half the day in his room) The news article states that Ashley Peacock spent more than half his time during those 5 years locked in his room. That is called seclusion. Ashley was placed in seclusion for his and staff safety when his frequency of psychotic episodes increased. The amount of time in seclusion was excessive also because of a lack of staff. This is solitary confinement:
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2nd August 2018, 03:59 PM | #518 |
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No question about that, but it's not an excuse any more when drugs haven't improved since the 1950/60s and treatment hasn't improved since the first ECT in 1938.
The industry itself must own that. Sorry, now I see the problem - I have to presume English isn't your first (or second) language, because I have no idea what that means. I thought you might have meant "irrelevant", but dismissed it because the idea that a psychiatric patient dying from taking a prescribed psychiatric drug, wouldn't be relevant to the psychiatric industry is nonsensical. |
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2nd August 2018, 04:14 PM | #519 |
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A "no improvement in psychiatric drugs since the 1950/60s" lie
3 August 2018 The Atheist: A "no improvement in psychiatric drugs since the 1950/60s" lie.
There has been research and new drugs in the last 60 years. Psychiatric medication, for example, alprazolam released in 1981, the first serotonin–norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor released to treat depression in 1986 (Prozac). Psychopharmacology |
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11th August 2018, 02:53 AM | #520 |
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Anti psychotic drugs have made big advances since the 1960's. I was on a handful of drugs for schizophrenia in the late 60.s and they were just knock out drops that turned you into a zombie. I weaned myself off them after a ten year struggle, but decided I needed medication again a few years ago because I was self medicating with alcohol which was doing me more harm. So I went on a low dose of abilify which is a modern drug that targets the deficiency of brain chemistry. I only have to take one 15mg tablet in the morning and up till recently, have not had side effects. But now I find I am getting dizzy when I stand up, and this is listed as a side effect. Never the less its a small price to pay rather than suffering all day with my nerves.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God. Sri Ramakrishna Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six. Leo Tolstoy |
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