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Old Yesterday, 05:42 AM   #121
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
What matters is appearing to care. But clearly, the best strategy is not really caring, but simply appearing to do so.
That depends upon the difficulty of doing so. It may be easier to care than the pretend to care, either in the sense of the amount of effort involved or in the sense of the likelihood of success at convincing others.
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Old Yesterday, 07:12 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That depends upon the difficulty of doing so. It may be easier to care than the pretend to care, either in the sense of the amount of effort involved or in the sense of the likelihood of success at convincing others.
Certainly. I agree.

But this would require clear evidence that caring is easier.

Last edited by phiwum; Yesterday at 07:13 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 07:28 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Certainly. I agree.

But this would require clear evidence that caring is easier.
I think I lost the thread of the discussion. What would require clear evidence?
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Old Today, 07:21 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think I lost the thread of the discussion. What would require clear evidence?
It was suggested that the self-interested position might be to actually care about others, rather than merely pretend to do so, since the pretense might come with significant costs.

Which could be so, but is not obviously so.
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Old Today, 07:32 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It was suggested that the self-interested position might be to actually care about others, rather than merely pretend to do so, since the pretense might come with significant costs.

Which could be so, but is not obviously so.
I think it would be very situation-dependent. And entirely subjective. I do not need to have conclusive objective evidence that caring is more self-interested. I only have to believe that is the case, and act accordingly. Ethics isn't about acting with evidentiary certainty. It's about making the best decision we can, based on the (always limited, often insufficient) information we have, according to the values we hold at that time.
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Old Today, 08:10 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it would be very situation-dependent. And entirely subjective. I do not need to have conclusive objective evidence that caring is more self-interested. I only have to believe that is the case, and act accordingly. Ethics isn't about acting with evidentiary certainty. It's about making the best decision we can, based on the (always limited, often insufficient) information we have, according to the values we hold at that time.
If your goal is self interest, then it isn't ethics.

Yes, I know that there's a pathological theory of ethics called egoism. But I think it's an abandonment of ethics.
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Old Today, 08:54 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
If your goal is self interest, then it isn't ethics.

Yes, I know that there's a pathological theory of ethics called egoism. But I think it's an abandonment of ethics.
It sounds like you're firmly in the "moral value that transcends self interest" camp, when it comes to defending human rights.
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Old Today, 09:29 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It sounds like you're firmly in the "moral value that transcends self interest" camp, when it comes to defending human rights.
Only to the degree that there are transcendental rights.

Arguing that we ought to get along because it's in our interest to do so is fine, I suppose, but I don't think it works and it's certainly not a moral argument.
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