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Old 19th June 2018, 12:56 PM   #361
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I agree, hence my comment that WE men have a lot to atone for, if only 1% are bothering to empathize with women. I don't think the number is that low, but it probably is very low, given the deplorable state of affairs that were allowed to go on for so long.

Women are guilty of this too, which is why an all-male run government is just as dumb and unrepresentative as an all-female run government.
The only way I can make any sense of this is if I take you to mean that *I* have to atone for not making sure *you* have been sufficiently empathetic towards women.

Which still doesn't make sense at all, really. Sorry.

ETA: Though I guess it does support the idea that it's not a gendered problem. Playing along with your formulation: WE ALL (men AND women) have a lot to atone for, if only 1% aren't bothering to empathize with the rest of us. And that problem of empathy is something we see a lot of in politicians generally, regardless of gender.

Last edited by theprestige; 19th June 2018 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 19th June 2018, 12:58 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If neither gender is bothering to empathize with the other, it would be a bad idea to allow either gender to accrue too much power, wouldn't you say?
Your gendered distinction is a red herring. Humans don't always empathize as much as we'd like. But we still have to put humans in positions of power, in order to have a government by humans for humans. It's an empathy problem, not a gender problem.
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Old 19th June 2018, 02:17 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
I'd implement term limits rather than a gender quota. In my opinion, at least part of the problem in the U.S. government is that the only person who is limited in the amount of time served is the President; I believe we'd be better off with more turnover. I figure Senators can serve two terms; that's twelve years, according to the current election cycle for Senators, and then we'd lengthen the terms for Representatives to four years and limit them to two terms as well. Supreme Court Justices should only serve a maximum of 15 years. We can still have election cycles every two years for those positions that require it and just cycle it through the states (starting with the ones who've had Senators or Representatives serving the longest periods, then moving to the mid-range ones, then the ones who've held positions the shortest). It has the benefit of limiting the length of time a lobbyist can get their hooks into someone, plus we're not overhauling the entire Legislative and Judicial branches every time a term limit is up, because there will be enough people who've held the position for a few years that there will still be stability in the government. I also think Supreme Court Justices could be chosen by election rather than appointment; right now the idea that one person, essentially, has control over who goes in the SC gives me hives (I know they have to be confirmed by the Senate and House, but in reality right now the President has the role of choosing the people in the SC and I don't think that's right). At the very least, the method of choosing a SC Justice should be overhauled.

That's a governmental change I could get behind. Gender quotas are not.
Legislative term limits have been attempted and have shown numerous problems:

Quote:
Twenty-one states passed limits, which are now in place in 15 state legislatures. Academics have studied them intensively, by comparing states with term limits to those without, by tracking legislative behavior before and after the imposition of limits, and by combining these approaches to see whether term limits set states on a different path than states without the reform. A clear scholarly consensus has emerged on many of their effects — or lack thereof.

First, term limits would not “drain the swamp” of Washington. They would simply recirculate the water. A host of studies have found — perhaps surprisingly — that implementing term limits has not changed either the characteristics of the politicians who inhabit state legislatures or the process that brings them there.

...

Term limits have also failed to open up more opportunities to female or minority candidates, with a few notable exceptions. For better or worse, the politicians who come to state capitols today look much like the term-limited veterans they replaced. As Gary Moncrief, Lynda Powell and Tim Storey concluded in their study of the composition of legislatures, “The notion that term limits will sweep out the old politicians is true (almost by definition), but the idea that term limits will sweep in a new breed is not.”

And what happens when term limits put rookie lawmakers in a statehouse? They lack legislative experience. According to surveys of legislators, statehouse observers and interest groups, members elected after term limits have less institutional knowledge than their predecessors and have less expertise on policy or the political process.
Linky.

Quote:
She said the big winners of term limits, according to her research, were special interests and lobbyists, because those inexperienced politicians have to get their information from somewhere.

"Even though voters were promised that term limits would severe the cozy ties between legislators and lobbyists, what we actually found is that legislators are more likely to turn to lobbyists for information," Sarbaugh-Thompson said.

Another finding in the research is that when these politicians come into office, they are more ambitious. But not necessarily in a good way, because they have limited time in office and don't focus on long-term solutions.

"They want to concentrate on things that are quick fixes, easy to do," Sarbaugh-Thompson said. "Anything that's really tough, they can kick the can down the road and then the next batch of people have to cope with it."
Linky.
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Old 19th June 2018, 03:06 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I agree, hence my comment that WE men have a lot to atone for, if only 1% are bothering to empathize with women.
What you mean "we", white man?

Maybe you have something to atone for, but I do not.
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Old 19th June 2018, 03:32 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What you mean "we", white man?

Maybe you have something to atone for, but I do not.
As best I can figure out, Fudbucker means that we, collectively, have not been doing enough to demand empathy in our lawmakers.

And for whatever reason he tacks on a gender specific condemnation, even though it's not really a gendered problem.
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Old 19th June 2018, 11:12 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
I suppose by making it compulsory for employers to give the same paid leave to mothers and fathers... I just checked and it seems it is quite possible that it will be put into practice in Spain soon.
Okay, that seems doable. I thought you meant making it compulsory that the employees take the leave. Some might consider a leave, even with pay, to be a set back to their ambitions as others in the field will be developing experience, connections, etc. while they will be out of the loop, and thus make a personal choice not to take that leave even though their employer is compelled to offer it.

If men make that choice disproportionately it's still a potential problem, at least if you see differences between the genders as a problem.

I don't know what sort of ratios we'd see or even if that sort of choice would be common, it's just a potential issue that came to mind.
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Old Yesterday, 03:07 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Okay, that seems doable. I thought you meant making it compulsory that the employees take the leave. Some might consider a leave, even with pay, to be a set back to their ambitions as others in the field will be developing experience, connections, etc. while they will be out of the loop, and thus make a personal choice not to take that leave even though their employer is compelled to offer it.

If men make that choice disproportionately it's still a potential problem, at least if you see differences between the genders as a problem.

I don't know what sort of ratios we'd see or even if that sort of choice would be common, it's just a potential issue that came to mind.
In Sweden they started seeing more paternity leave when a certain amount of time was reserved for dads as non-transferable and use-it-or-lose-it, and it seems to have had positive repercussions in terms of men's involvement and happiness in parenting.

https://apolitical.co/solution_artic...es-fatherhood/
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Old Yesterday, 03:44 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
In Sweden they started seeing more paternity leave when a certain amount of time was reserved for dads as non-transferable and use-it-or-lose-it, and it seems to have had positive repercussions in terms of men's involvement and happiness in parenting.

https://apolitical.co/solution_artic...es-fatherhood/
Cool, thanks for that.
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Old Yesterday, 03:50 PM   #369
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I’m just gonna leave this here:
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I AGREE
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Old Yesterday, 04:02 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Iím just gonna leave this here:
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I AGREE
Lazy *********** Danes, won't even invent their own word for pussy whipped.
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Old Yesterday, 04:27 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Lazy *********** Danes, won't even invent their own word for pussy whipped.
You mean it's not "pussy-bergen whipped-borgen
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Old Yesterday, 07:44 PM   #372
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Janice Fiamengo give some reasons to hate men, here.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=qaa64Ol_wTg
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Old Today, 08:24 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Men are most likely capable of empathizing with what it would be like to face an unwanted pregnancy, but I doubt that even 1% of them ever bother to put in the necessary mental effort.
Upon what data are you basing this?
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Old Today, 08:47 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Upon what data are you basing this?
I didn't mention data.
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Old Today, 08:51 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Right now we have age limits on who can serve as President (35), Senator (30), and Representative (25). Are those age-based limitations similarly undemocratic?
Everyone who manages to keep living long enough will eventually reach those ages. Most people will not ever change their gender. (I'm not even going to get into how the trans-issue might work under your weird idea.)
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Old Today, 08:52 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Everyone who manages to keep living long enough will eventually reach those ages. Most people will not ever change their gender. (I'm not even going to get into how the trans-issue might work under your weird idea.)
I was talking about sex, rather than gender.
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Old Today, 09:05 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I was talking about sex, rather than gender.
I'm one of those out-of-the-loop philistines who has no clear idea what the *********** difference is, at least in this particular context.

Are you saying that these quotas would be enforced by birth sex only?
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Old Today, 09:05 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I didn't mention data.
If you had, we wouldn't be asking you for it.

It's okay to say, "I have no data," if that's the truth. Why try to dodge?
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Old Today, 09:08 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I'm one of those out-of-the-loop philistines who has no clear idea what the *********** difference is, at least in this particular context.

Are you saying that these quotas would be enforced by birth sex only?
I think he's saying that because you referred to gender instead of sex, he doesn't owe you an explanation of his sex-based policy idea.
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Old Today, 09:09 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you had, we wouldn't be asking you for it.

It's okay to say, "I have no data," if that's the truth. Why try to dodge?
What made you think anyone has data on how often men attempt to empathise with women's issues?
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Old Today, 09:11 AM   #381
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I think a lot of men are perfectly capable of relating to the panic of an unsought pregnancy, for the record. Call it a hunch.

They may not understand the physical aspect to the degree that women do, but so what? I don't truly understand the physical aspect of urinating out of a penis, either. I could still be a urologist if I wanted, and I could still design a lovely urinal. This analogy is stretched for purposes of humor, of course, but the point remains. Being a woman does not automatically make one more sympathetic to women's issues. Being a man does not automatically make one less sympathetic.
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Old Today, 09:13 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I think a lot of men are perfectly capable of relating to the panic of an unsought pregnancy, for the record. Call it a hunch.
I already said they are capable above.

I'm capable of benching 250 lbs., with enough practice.
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Old Today, 09:14 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I already said they are capable above.
Then why do we need a quota?

I'm genuinely confused as hell.
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Old Today, 09:21 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Then why do we need a quota?
I did not say we need parity in representation by sex.

We can (and do) get by with (mostly) patriarchy.
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Old Today, 09:22 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I think a lot of men are perfectly capable of relating to the panic of an unsought pregnancy, for the record. Call it a hunch.

They may not understand the physical aspect to the degree that women do, but so what? I don't truly understand the physical aspect of urinating out of a penis, either. I could still be a urologist if I wanted, and I could still design a lovely urinal. This analogy is stretched for purposes of humor, of course, but the point remains. Being a woman does not automatically make one more sympathetic to women's issues. Being a man does not automatically make one less sympathetic.
This.

There is a reason men sign over parental rights; well, several, actually, but I'd guess one of the more prevalent ones is that the man in question doesn't particularly WANT to be a father/is not ready to be a father. Not exactly the best reason, to my way of thinking, but no less valid than a woman who's not ready to be pregnant or have a child. I won't get into how the two genders are treated differently in those circumstances though; that's not the subject of this thread.

Personally I think this attempt at forced separation of the two genders based on the idea that one gender cannot understand the issues that solely face the other gender is stupid. So what if a man can't viscerally and personally appreciate what it's like when women get pregnant; doesn't mean he can't educate himself on the problems women face and offer his support for her ultimate decision on the matter. The key word there is "educate"; both genders in the government are fully capable of consulting with multiple experts in the field relating to whatever is the issue and proceeding on the basis of knowledge rather than a knee-jerk reaction, it's just that some don't seem to want to educate themselves, or refuse to speak to anyone that doesn't agree with their own rigid dogma on the matter.
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Old Today, 09:23 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What made you think anyone has data on how often men attempt to empathise with women's issues?
I hadn't really given it much thought, until you started making quantitative claims about it.

Earlier, you brought up the 1% empathy rate as if it were a real issue that we should take seriously and perhaps even do something about. Is that not what you had in mind?
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Old Today, 09:24 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I hadn't really given it much thought, until you started making quantitative claims about it.

Earlier, you brought up the 1% empathy rate as if it were a real issue that we should take seriously and perhaps even do something about. Is that not what you had in mind?
To be fair, I'm fairly sure d4m10n was merely offering an OPINION on the potential statistic, not offering an actual statistic. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that though, d4m10n.
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Old Today, 09:25 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm capable of benching 250 lbs., with enough practice.
Right. So if we were selecting candidates for a team of bench-pressers, we'd want to select individuals who do possess that skill. Most people are capable, but only some actually able. We'd want to learn about the skills of the different candidates and base our voting decisions on those criteria.

The current voting system allows for the exact same sort of selection with regard to political candidates. Voters learn about an individual's specific positions and skills, then vote accordingly. The fact that people often make poor choices and vote in bad candidates is just part of the deal. No quota can fix that. All it could do is shake up the entire way we do things in this country, which would lead to insane backlash. And for what? I can't even see how the plan would be effective for the purposes designed.
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Old Today, 09:26 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I did not say we need parity in representation by sex.

We can (and do) get by with (mostly) patriarchy.
Where's that "banging my head off the desk" emoticon when I need it?
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Old Today, 09:29 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I did not say we need parity in representation by sex.

We can (and do) get by with (mostly) patriarchy.
Women have the right to vote and seem to engage that right at slightly higher rates than men consistently for the last few decades. http://www.cawp.rutgers.edu/sites/de...genderdiff.pdf

Any gender imbalance in modern politics is supported by women voters. Women vote for anti-feminist positions like anti-abortion with regularity. Women voted for Trump in high numbers, despite his openly misogynistic traits. Instituting a quota would be restricting the choice of women voters, ostensibly for their own benefit. Sounds very paternalistic to me.
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Old Today, 09:29 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
To be fair, I'm fairly sure d4m10n was merely offering an OPINION on the potential statistic, not offering an actual statistic. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that though, d4m10n.
Well, it's an opinion that's not based on evidence I don't really think we should be basing policy on it.
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Old Today, 09:29 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I didn't mention data.

Okay then.

What experiences have you had that give you this impression. Because my experience is pretty much the opposite. The men are know are able to empathise with ladies over uniquely female problems and vice-versa.

I simply don't recognise the world as you describe it.
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Old Today, 09:32 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Women have the right to vote and seem to engage that right at slightly higher rates than men consistently for the last few decades. http://www.cawp.rutgers.edu/sites/de...genderdiff.pdf

Any gender imbalance in modern politics is supported by women voters. Women vote for anti-feminist positions like anti-abortion with regularity. Women voted for Trump in high numbers, despite his openly misogynistic traits. Instituting a quota would be restricting the choice of women voters, ostensibly for their own benefit. Sounds very paternalistic to me.


I have nothing to add.
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Old Today, 09:37 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I think a lot of men are perfectly capable of relating to the panic of an unsought pregnancy, for the record. Call it a hunch.

They may not understand the physical aspect to the degree that women do, but so what? I don't truly understand the physical aspect of urinating out of a penis, either. I could still be a urologist if I wanted, and I could still design a lovely urinal. This analogy is stretched for purposes of humor, of course, but the point remains. Being a woman does not automatically make one more sympathetic to women's issues. Being a man does not automatically make one less sympathetic.
There you go bringing sanity and humour to a hate-filled pity party. Don't expect to be invited again.
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Old Today, 09:41 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
To be fair, I'm fairly sure d4m10n was merely offering an OPINION on the potential statistic, not offering an actual statistic. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that though, d4m10n.
What is the basis of the opinion?
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Old Today, 09:51 AM   #396
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What is the basis of the opinion?
Look, what kind of skeptics would we be if we couldn't just make up an empirical claim and refuse to back it up with any kind of evidence?

Instead, why not just accept that if only about 1% of men bother to bench press 250lbs that's probably a ball-park figure for men making the effort to empathize with women having unwanted pregnancies.

It's kind of a law of stuff called the 1% Law. I guess.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old Today, 10:07 AM   #397
theprestige
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Look, what kind of skeptics would we be if we couldn't just make up an empirical claim and refuse to back it up with any kind of evidence?

Instead, why not just accept that if only about 1% of men bother to bench press 250lbs that's probably a ball-park figure for men making the effort to empathize with women having unwanted pregnancies.

It's kind of a law of stuff called the 1% Law. I guess.
"Look at my opinion!"

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"I never said my opinion was important!"

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Old Today, 11:01 AM   #398
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Any gender imbalance in modern politics is supported by women voters.
I'm rather skeptical of this. Most ordinary voters are given a choice between two male major party candidates, most of the time.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Women vote for anti-feminist positions like anti-abortion with regularity.
At the same rate as men?

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Women voted for Trump in high numbers, despite his openly misogynistic traits.
At the same rate as men?
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Old Today, 11:03 AM   #399
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Look, what kind of skeptics would we be if we couldn't just make up an empirical claim and refuse to back it up with any kind of evidence?
What kind of skeptics would we be if we saw a subjective statement of personal doubt and then strawmanned it into an empirical claim about the world?

A) I'd be surprised if X is true.

B) X is demonstrably true.

Can you see a difference here?
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