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Tags Gaza flotilla raid , Israel-Palestine conflict

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Old 23rd January 2011, 06:16 PM   #4721
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Secret papers reveal slow death of Middle East peace process

• Massive new leak lifts lid on negotiations
• PLO offered Israel key settlements
• Concessions on refugees and Holy sites

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ace-concession
Quote:
The overall impression that emerges from the documents, which stretch from 1999 to 2010, is of the weakness and growing desperation of PA leaders as failure to reach agreement or even halt all settlement temporarily undermines their credibility in relation to their Hamas rivals; the papers also reveal the unyielding confidence of Israeli negotiators and the often dismissive attitude of US politicians towards Palestinian representatives.
So....good news then?
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Old 23rd January 2011, 06:23 PM   #4722
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Don't you get tired of this kind of lying? Do you really think you're going to get away with it when I'm right here to point it out? You're not exactly covering yourself in glory here, maybe it's time to withdraw.

Nonsense. He's winning.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 06:27 PM   #4723
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
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Old 23rd January 2011, 07:13 PM   #4724
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Well, for starters they had to abide by the agreements they made and not turn down all the deals offered to them.

Do you think that's too much to ask of Palestinians?

Maybe you could create your own list, hmmm?
maybe you could create your own list? A list of all the agreements they had to abide by?

come on son, you surely expect no more of palestinians in the creation of Palestine than was expected of Jews in the creation of Israel??
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Old 23rd January 2011, 07:21 PM   #4725
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Who knew electing a genocidal terrorist group as your government, which promptly went to war against a much more powerful neighbor, could have an effect on the economy?

I can't understand how this happened!


So basically, anything goes.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 07:25 PM   #4726
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
maybe you could create your own list? A list of all the agreements they had to abide by?
Yawn. It seems you have run out of things to argue and are now trying to manufacture something new.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
come on son, you surely expect no more of palestinians in the creation of Palestine than was expected of Jews in the creation of Israel??
I have already addressed this, fool. If you have something new to say, feel free. If not, then maybe it's time for you to lick your wounds and skulk away. Again.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 07:26 PM   #4727
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
what ever happened to that Iraqi guy, I used to crack up at his optimism..

and Zigg....shame on you for blatant driveby
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Old 23rd January 2011, 07:30 PM   #4728
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Yawn. It seems you have run out of things to argue and are now trying to manufacture something new.



I have already addressed this, fool. If you have something new to say, feel free. If not, then maybe it's time for you to lick your wounds and skulk away. Again.
look, you don't have to answer now I know its a hard question for someone with double standards....Palestinians have to do various things for an unspecified time before you would be comfortable with them establishing a nation....with Jews and Israel....not so concerned. If you need time to think, get back to me.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 08:07 PM   #4729
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
look, you don't have to answer now I know its a hard question for someone with double standards....Palestinians have to do various things for an unspecified time before you would be comfortable with them establishing a nation....with Jews and Israel....not so concerned. If you need time to think, get back to me.
Tell you what, fool. If you really think this is an issue rather than you just blathering incoherently to cover how you got your arse handed to you for supposedly not supporting Hamas while whining that they should have their own seaport for easier smuggling, why don't you start a new thread on it?
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Old 23rd January 2011, 08:19 PM   #4730
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Secret papers reveal slow death of Middle East peace process

• Massive new leak lifts lid on negotiations
• PLO offered Israel key settlements
• Concessions on refugees and Holy sites

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ace-concession
What on earth does this have to do with the aid flotilla???
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Old 23rd January 2011, 09:14 PM   #4731
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Tell you what, fool. If you really think this is an issue rather than you just blathering incoherently to cover how you got your arse handed to you for supposedly not supporting Hamas while whining that they should have their own seaport for easier smuggling, why don't you start a new thread on it?
sigh.....you need to calm down rather than go into a frenzy when you get a hard question. And you can start a thread on anything you like but generally you have to express an opinion which you may find challenging.

anyway...to assist you calming down you can go on ignore for a while (again).
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Old 23rd January 2011, 11:46 PM   #4732
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
sigh.....you need to calm down rather than go into a frenzy when you get a hard question. And you can start a thread on anything you like but generally you have to express an opinion which you may find challenging.

anyway...to assist you calming down you can go on ignore for a while (again).
Just as I thought, you don't really want to put that up for discussion. Just a diversion.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 11:58 PM   #4733
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Israel's report is out.

Not really a surprise in the conclusion, I think anyone could have guessed that the UNHR would find against Israel, Israel would find for them, and Turkey's, when done, will find against them, without endangering Randi's million dollars.

I'm still waiting on the only one I think will do a good job, the UN's Palmer Report.

I would note though that this one did have two International Observers who say "We have no doubt that the Commission is independent.''
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Old 24th January 2011, 02:26 AM   #4734
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Israel's report is out.

Not really a surprise in the conclusion, I think anyone could have guessed that the UNHR would find against Israel, Israel would find for them, and Turkey's, when done, will find against them, without endangering Randi's million dollars.

I'm still waiting on the only one I think will do a good job, the UN's Palmer Report.

I would note though that this one did have two International Observers who say "We have no doubt that the Commission is independent.''
Good summary. It should be noted, however, that Israel has been critical of
the actions of it's armed forces in the past, so you should not automatically assume that the decision was pre-ordained.
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Old 24th January 2011, 03:56 AM   #4735
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Good summary. It should be noted, however, that Israel has been critical of
the actions of it's armed forces in the past, so you should not automatically assume that the decision was pre-ordained.
I can't see that it was pre-ordained and it is good to see independent observers so I'm confident that the report is an independent assessment of everything they were able to access. I do think its unfortunate that they were not allowed to interview or directly question any soldiers about the events on the ship. They had to rely on a couple of Generals to answer on behalf of the soldiers. Or questions submitted in writing and answered in statements overseen by the IDF.

I would have liked to see the commission directly interview people actually there.

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Ar...aspx?id=204774


Soon after the commission was established, Turkel demanded the right to subpoena witnesses to appear before it. The government granted it that power. However, it was understood that the commission would not question any soldiers involved in the operation. For the purposes of the investigation, the soldiers were represented by Chief-of-General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi and Maj.-Gen. Giora Eiland, who conducted a probe of the military aspects of the operation.

The members of the commission were permitted to submit questions to individual soldiers who participated in the operation to a military committee which was empowered to approach the soldiers directly.
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Old 24th January 2011, 04:26 AM   #4736
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What on earth does this have to do with the aid flotilla???
Israel often justifies its resort to violence by pleading Palestinian intransigence during negotiations. The leaked papers reveal this to be a dishonest claim.


The quest for a two-state solution is now over.
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Last edited by JihadJane; 24th January 2011 at 04:35 AM.
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Old 24th January 2011, 05:19 AM   #4737
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A two state solution will never work, and the Israelis know that. Nothing short of all Jews leaving Palestine would appease the moslems.
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Old 24th January 2011, 05:24 AM   #4738
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Originally Posted by amb View Post
A two state solution will never work, and the Israelis know that. Nothing short of all Jews leaving Palestine would appease the moslems.
What would appease the jews?
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Old 24th January 2011, 05:27 AM   #4739
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Good summary. It should be noted, however, that Israel has been critical of
the actions of it's armed forces in the past, so you should not automatically assume that the decision was pre-ordained.
I don't think that it really matters how good it was, or how independant it was, those that are against Israel where always going to call its own investigation a whitewash.

Similarly it's interesting that those doing the investigation for Turkey have condemed the Isreali report even though they haven't finished their own, so it's pretty clear which side they are coming down on.

As I say, I'm going to wait on the Palmer report, that one has the best access to people and will be truely independant.
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Old 24th January 2011, 05:28 AM   #4740
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
What would appease the jews?
That people stopped firing rockets and morters at their homes and ceased calling for their deaths?
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Old 24th January 2011, 08:51 AM   #4741
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If the Palestinians packed their bags and walked to Jordan and Egypt.
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Old 24th January 2011, 08:53 AM   #4742
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Originally Posted by amb View Post
A two state solution will never work, and the Israelis know that. Nothing short of all Jews Palestinians leaving Palestine the West Bank would appease the moslems Jews.
fixed that for ya.
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Old 24th January 2011, 09:48 AM   #4743
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Originally Posted by amb View Post
A two state solution will never work, and the Israelis know that. Nothing short of all Jews leaving Palestine would appease the moslems.
so you are in favor of a one state solution? or what solution do you have in mind?
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Old 24th January 2011, 01:37 PM   #4744
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Originally Posted by amb View Post
A two state solution will never work, and the Israelis know that. Nothing short of all Jews leaving Palestine would appease the moslems.
That's not true. The recent leaks reveal the Palestinian negotiators were prepared to make major concessions to have a peace deal. That still wasn't good enough for Israeli negotiators.
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Old 24th January 2011, 03:25 PM   #4745
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
That's not true. The recent leaks reveal the Palestinian negotiators were prepared to make major concessions to have a peace deal. That still wasn't good enough for Israeli negotiators.
Cite?
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Old 24th January 2011, 03:27 PM   #4746
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Cite?
yup, apparently the Palestinians were willing to make huge concessions to the Israelis, allowing them to annex almost all major settlement blocks and Jewish neighborhoods in East Jerusalem.

they were even willing to pretty much give up the Palestinian Right-of-Return, as long as Israel allowed back 100,000 refugees.

but Israel still said "nein!!".

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...salem-1.338785

Last edited by Thunder; 24th January 2011 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 24th January 2011, 03:57 PM   #4747
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Cite?
The papers you were so pleased with, above.


Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
That people stopped firing rockets and morters at their homes and ceased calling for their deaths?
You really think that would stop Israel grabbing more land?
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Old 24th January 2011, 04:10 PM   #4748
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Cite?
Looks like someone trying to undermine the PA.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12263671

Abbas says:

Quote:
"What is intended is a mix-up. I have seen them yesterday present things as Palestinian but they were Israeli... this is therefore intentional," he said in Cairo, in remarks quoted by the Reuters news agency.
The chief negotiator backs him up.

eta: I don't necessarily believe either of them, but as the article points out, Israel had offered concessions rejected, so it looks like someone trying to present a definitely selective, possibly distorted version.
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Old 24th January 2011, 09:42 PM   #4749
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
The papers you were so pleased with, above.
This article says it's essentially the same plan as the Clinton peace plan only with some modifications made in favor of the Palestinians.

Which, if true, makes it pretty close to what Palestinians were already offered back in 2000.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...apher-1.338995

"The Palestinians had agreed to divide Jerusalem based on the Clinton peace plan and the Geneva Initiative maps, with slight modifications, according to maps found among the documents leaked to Al Jazeera, cartographers said.

The maps the Palestinians brought to the negotiating table had a number of changes made in them in favor of their position, said cartographers Shaul Arieli of the Council for Peace and Security and Yair Assaf-Shapira of the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies."




I would have rather tripped up AUP with that one, but you're not a bad second choice.
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Old 24th January 2011, 09:46 PM   #4750
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Originally Posted by quixotecoyote View Post
Looks like someone trying to undermine the PA.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12263671

Abbas says:

The chief negotiator backs him up.

eta: I don't necessarily believe either of them, but as the article points out, Israel had offered concessions rejected, so it looks like someone trying to present a definitely selective, possibly distorted version.
It's interesting that the spin on these stories isn't to marvel at how close these two sides got and to see it as an optimistic sign, but instead to slander the two sides. The Palestinians for offering too much and the Israelis for not taking it.
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Old 24th January 2011, 09:52 PM   #4751
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Israel often justifies its resort to violence by pleading Palestinian intransigence during negotiations. The leaked papers reveal this to be a dishonest claim.
Not leaked papers, faked papers. The Palestinian Authority is about as trustworthy as the Soviet Union. The lies work because some people need them.

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Old 24th January 2011, 10:03 PM   #4752
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
Not leaked papers, faked papers. The Palestinian Authority is about as trustworthy as the Soviet Union. The lies work because some people need them.
You are aware that there has been no such thing for nearly 20 years?
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Old 24th January 2011, 10:50 PM   #4753
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It's interesting that the spin on these stories isn't to marvel at how close these two sides got and to see it as an optimistic sign, but instead to slander the two sides. The Palestinians for offering too much and the Israelis for not taking it.
That's cause there isn't a "The Palestinians."

Fatah can't take too many steps towards peace without losing ground to Hamas, Hamas can't too many steps towards war without getting another wave of tanks rolling in, and Israel won't get good PR no matter what it does short of dissolving and letting Hamas and Fatah fight over the remains, so the spin is pretty much inevitable.
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Old 24th January 2011, 10:59 PM   #4754
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Originally Posted by quixotecoyote View Post
That's cause there isn't a "The Palestinians."

Fatah can't take too many steps towards peace without losing ground to Hamas, Hamas can't too many steps towards war without getting another wave of tanks rolling in, and Israel won't get good PR no matter what it does short of dissolving and letting Hamas and Fatah fight over the remains, so the spin is pretty much inevitable.
One understands the "spin" from Hamas or Fatah, it's the media spin that's harder to understand.
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Old 25th January 2011, 12:20 AM   #4755
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
One understands the "spin" from Hamas or Fatah, it's the media spin that's harder to understand.
Why the media does it or how?

Interesting summation of the Turkel commission's flotilla report and the reaction of the BBC, CNN and the Indepedent to name a few in their need to keep up with the same old accusations, which has now turned into accusation of 'whitewashing' the IDF:

Flotilla Report: BBC Plumbs the Depths

Currently, I think the CNN, by watching their material and that arrogant lady that took over from Amanpour, is worse than the BBC. At least the BBC occasionally disguises their bias against Israel.
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Old 25th January 2011, 06:53 AM   #4756
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
What would appease the jews?
To be left alone in peace. To be able to go to a shopping center without the chance that a rocket fired from Gaza will explode in the center square. Or a suicide bomber blowing up a busload of children on their way to school.
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Old 25th January 2011, 11:42 AM   #4757
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Originally Posted by amb View Post
To be left alone in peace. To be able to go to a shopping center without the chance that a rocket fired from Gaza will explode in the center square. Or a suicide bomber blowing up a busload of children on their way to school.
Would that stop them grabbing more land?
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Old 25th January 2011, 11:45 AM   #4758
JihadJane
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
Not leaked papers, faked papers. The Palestinian Authority is about as trustworthy as the Soviet Union. The lies work because some people need them.

Are you able to substantiate this claim (hilited, above)?

The Guardian newspaper has substantiated the papers.
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empty void in space epic wasteland so dark you have no direction and die in sensory deprivation madness all your fault anyway jerk ~ Hlafordlaes

Last edited by JihadJane; 25th January 2011 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 25th January 2011, 01:24 PM   #4759
portlandatheist
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
What would appease the jews?
Live and let live. Palestinians can choose to have peace at anytime.
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Old 25th January 2011, 02:17 PM   #4760
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Originally Posted by amb View Post
To be left alone in peace.

if it were only that simple.
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