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Tags Gaza flotilla raid , Israel-Palestine conflict

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Old 30th May 2010, 11:30 PM   #1
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Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_595033.html

Last edited by Lisa Simpson; 31st May 2010 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 30th May 2010, 11:51 PM   #2
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Update: 14 Deaths Reported as Israel Attacks Aid Flotilla
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:11 AM   #3
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6 Soldiers injured, as the army notes they met a "Well-planned lynch". The "peace" activists were, as usual, actually armed and using the civilians as cover. When you try to break a naval blockade and meet attempts to stop you with violence after repeated warnings, what did you expect?
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:14 AM   #4
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15 dead now: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100531/...nians_flotilla
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:22 AM   #5
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Look, I'm not here to give an opinion. I'm merely posting links to mainstream articles about an international conflict.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:55 AM   #6
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Oh, and of course:

Quote:
In the morning, participants on the flotilla were recorded shouting "Khaybar Khaybar ya yahud, Jaish Muhammad saya'ud", which means 'Jews, remember Khyabar, the army of Mohammed is returning.'

This cry relates to an event in the seventh century when Muslims massacred and expelled Jews from the town of Khaybar, in modern-day Saudi Arabia.
But APART from THAT, they're a bunch of "peace activists".
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:19 AM   #7
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Hmm... interesting find. Thanks.
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:51 AM   #8
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Both sides are saying the other shot first; without independent corroboration I don't think anyone can claim the moral high ground here.
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Old 31st May 2010, 02:35 AM   #9
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I just want to point out that trying to violate a naval blockade is an act of war against the country imposing the blockade, and calling it "humanitarian" (well, apart from the "kill the Jews" chants, etc., etc., etc.) doesn't get one off the hook.

If, in the first world war, a flotilla of ships sailed from Turkey to Germany claiming they are bringing "humanitarian aid" to Germany in violation of the British navy's blockade, you can bet your behind the navy would have sunk them.
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Old 31st May 2010, 02:39 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
Both sides are saying the other shot first; without independent corroboration I don't think anyone can claim the moral high ground here.
Israel can definitely claim the moral low ground. They behaved like lawless pirates and terrorists, pure and simple.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:08 AM   #11
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when the IDF claims are correct, then i dont see how they are peace activists.
even if i found the sea blockade not good, its stupid idea to react like the IDF claims they reacted.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:09 AM   #12
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Good coverage on The Guardian website:

Israel attacks Gaza flotilla - live coverage.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:12 AM   #13
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Why blockade running, though? Why can't the people in the underground tunnels bring aid? Oh, right, they're busy shuttling weapons and bombs.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:16 AM   #14
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Priorities must be kept. Dead Jews = Hamas' #1 priority.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:19 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
when the IDF claims are correct, then i dont see how they are peace activists.
To repeat, I can rob a gas station and claim I am Robin Hood. That hardly means the police are now not allowed to arrest me because the robbery is now "charity work". Similarly, blockade running is an act of war against the country imposing the blockade; calling it "humanitarian aid" doesn't change the situation.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
Both sides are saying the other shot first; without independent corroboration I don't think anyone can claim the moral high ground here.
Not to assign any moral culpability, but a night-time surprise boarding is a high-risk operation and a very unusual response to a maritime situation, so I think it's reasonable to request Israel to explain and defend their choice action.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:22 AM   #17
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The news so far indicates that all the deaths were amongst people on board the flotilla, and that none of the Israeli forces were killed. The one serious gunshot injury to an Israeli was reportedly inflicted by somebody snatching his own gun and using it on him.
IMHO, that does not help the credibility of the Israelis' account. Of course, it could be that all the armed terrorists on board the boats were really bad shots.

And, surely, boarding a non-military, not-obviously-armed vessel by force in international waters counts as piracy?
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:22 AM   #18
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Raw footage is now available: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:23 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
If, in the first world war, a flotilla of ships sailed from Turkey to Germany claiming they are bringing "humanitarian aid" to Germany in violation of the British navy's blockade, you can bet your behind the navy would have sunk them.
Err britian was at war with turkey. Britian wouldn't care where such ships were sailing to. Now Sweden to germany is where things got complicated.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:26 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
To repeat, I can rob a gas station and claim I am Robin Hood. That hardly means the police are now not allowed to arrest me because the robbery is now "charity work". Similarly, blockade running is an act of war against the country imposing the blockade; calling it "humanitarian aid" doesn't change the situation.
that you directly belive the IDF claims without any evidence at all doesnt surprise me in the least.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:27 AM   #21
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The main issue here is what are you asking an explanation for.

Are you (the impersonal "you") asking why the operation worked out less than well (to put it mildly)? Or are you asking how the evil Jews dare to even think they have a right to impose a blockade or maintain it, just because Hamas swore to genocide them?

Those are two very different demands for explanation. The former is legitimate; the latter is not. If you are asking the first, which seems to be the case, just wait a couple of days -- quite a few Israelies are asking the same and the government and IDF are going to have to give answers.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:28 AM   #22
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True. If you ever develop an interest in Norwegian agriculture, you will discover that we have a system in which farmers are given free tractors and other incentives to keep up their work (far as I know, they're not allowed to be subsidized due to EU regulations or somesuch). This drive to produce as much food within Norway as possible is as far as I know a direct result of the British blockade during WWI. All ships were stopped, even those travelling to neutral countries such as Norway. People starved to death as a result.

[/slightly OT]
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:29 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by sophia8 View Post
And, surely, boarding a non-military, not-obviously-armed vessel by force in international waters counts as piracy?
Not when the vessel is part of a flotilla aimed at breaking a blockade. That in itself is an act of war, whether the vessel is armed or not.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:30 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
that you directly belive the IDF claims without any evidence at all doesnt surprise me in the least.
That you believe Al Jazeera and Hamas' spokesmen doesn't surprise me.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:31 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Err britian was at war with turkey. Britian wouldn't care where such ships were sailing to. Now Sweden to germany is where things got complicated.
You have a point, but I'm quite sure a blockade-running flotilla from Sweden would have been stopped as well.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:32 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
that you directly belive the IDF claims without any evidence at all
Well, apart from those soldiers injured by the "peaceful protesters", for instance. Or the "death to the Jews" chants aboard the ships.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:33 AM   #27
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But surely the British boarding party would not fire on axe- and knife-wielding sailors trying to kill them? The honourable thing to do would be to lay down their weapons and die. Anything else could be seen as offensive.
Quote:
Well, apart from those soldiers injured by the "peaceful protesters", for instance. Or the "death to the Jews" chants aboard the ships.
Inside job. The soldiers mutilated each others with thermite-tipped knives. Witnesses saw blood run at free-flow speed.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:34 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
This drive to produce as much food within Norway as possible is as far as I know a direct result of the British blockade during WWI. All ships were stopped, even those travelling to neutral countries such as Norway. People starved to death as a result.
You're not confusing the WW I blockade with the blockade during the Napoleonic wars? I've never heard anything about starvation in Norway due to the first world war before.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:34 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
That you believe Al Jazeera and Hamas' spokesmen doesn't surprise me.
actually like my fist post indicates, i dont belive any side.
i dont know what happened. but i dont jump onto one side like you do.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:35 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
Similarly, blockade running is an act of war against the country imposing the blockade; calling it "humanitarian aid" doesn't change the situation.
No it isn't. Which is perhaps fortunate since the ships are as likely greek registered as anything and Greece is a NATO memeber. Having Isreal present article 5 issue would be inconvenient.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:44 AM   #31
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What is this trend going that boarding a ship in international waters automatically equals piracy?

Quote:
According to maritime law, they can board ships in international waters if they have reason to believe it is involved in:

A. A crime that extends to the shore of the country in question
B. Smuggling contraband or drugs
The IDF was justified in stopping this ship to search it and detain it. So we can stop pretending that somehow being in international waters gives you a free pass to do pretty much anything you want.

The convoy direction was confirmed to be Gaza by those piloting the ships, which was under naval blockade. The IDF gave warning to cease going to Gaza and go to Ashdod port where the aid would be transferred to Gaza. IDF boarded, was shot at by the 'peace activists', beaten by bats and metal pipes, the IDF weapons were grabbed, and 1 IDF was disarmed. The Turkish media on board made the grave error of showing footage of these activists beating an IDF soldier and him not firing back. Otherwise, would be almost a seamless propaganda ploy to be used by Hamas and their cohorts.

So rebuttal?
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:49 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
What is this trend going that boarding a ship in international waters automatically equals piracy?


The IDF was justified in stopping this ship to search it and detain it. So we can stop pretending that somehow being in international waters gives you a free pass to do pretty much anything you want.

The convoy direction was confirmed to be Gaza by those piloting the ships, which was under naval blockade. The IDF gave warning to cease going to Gaza and go to Ashdod port where the aid would be transferred to Gaza. IDF boarded, was shot at by the 'peace activists', beaten by bats and metal pipes, the IDF weapons were grabbed, and 1 IDF was disarmed. The Turkish media on board made the grave error of showing footage of these activists beating an IDF soldier and him not firing back. Otherwise, would be almost a seamless propaganda ploy to be used by Hamas and their cohorts.

So rebuttal?
for a rebuttal you would have first to deliver evidence for you claims.

sofar there are only claims from all knid of sides. and the usual suspects already start pointing fingers in all kind of directions.

how about we wait a few days until we know more about what really happened and jump to a conclusion then?
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:51 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
You have a point, but I'm quite sure a blockade-running flotilla from Sweden would have been stopped as well.
Stopped yes. What happened next would depend on the year.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:53 AM   #34
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Freedom Flotilla is now claiming 19 dead: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...047995359.html
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:56 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
for a rebuttal you would have first to deliver evidence for you claims.
Haven't been watching the raw footage of the boarding have you? This isn't like the other threads where there's a lack of evidence.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:57 AM   #36
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Well, if it were in 2010, we would have a hue and cry from the usual idiots about how awful it is that the poor, innocent Germans are suffering just because their government is made up of genocidal Nazis... and, at the same time, claims that England ignores the democratic will of the German people by not dealing with Nazi Germany leniently.

You see, whether Hamas does, or does not, represent the people of Gaza depends on what the usual gang of idiots wants to blame Israel for this week.

When it's for the blockade, they are not representative of the Palestinians, who are suffering needlessly just because of a dictatorial government they have no power to change. When it's for not dealing with Hamas, well, then it's Israel being anti-peace and not willing to respect the Palestinians' democratic choice as a peace partner.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:58 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by JohnTheRevelator View Post
Freedom Hamas-supporting Flotilla is now claiming 19 dead: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...047995359.html
FYI. The two are mutually exclusive.
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Old 31st May 2010, 05:01 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
What is this trend going that boarding a ship in international waters automatically equals piracy?


The IDF was justified in stopping this ship to search it and detain it. So we can stop pretending that somehow being in international waters gives you a free pass to do pretty much anything you want.
The flaw in your argument was that the ship wasn't stopped for the reasons listed but as part of a blockade. Now thats only allowed if a blockade is legal (a rule introduced after it was found that blockades were having an unacceptable impact on trade). Unfortunately there has never been much agreeement as to what counts as a legal blockade. While the Isreali blockade probably meets the old "effective" standard it status with regards to post WW2 standards is unclear.

Of course isreal is in no position to complain about people running blockades. 6th airborne troops were repeatly attacked trying to deal with blockade runners back in the day.

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Old 31st May 2010, 05:02 AM   #39
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double post

Last edited by geni; 31st May 2010 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 31st May 2010, 05:04 AM   #40
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cue israel is worse than the Draka in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...
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