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Tags Gaza flotilla raid , Israel-Palestine conflict

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Old 21st January 2011, 03:13 AM   #4681
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Originally Posted by amb View Post
Eliminate all the extremists in Gaza and they can have their seaport and land crossings. But still with caution though, after all, they are mostly moslems.
You left the smiley off that.
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Old 21st January 2011, 03:21 AM   #4682
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post

The Red Cross would sail to Ashdod, as Israel requests. If not, they would be commandeered and taken there by force if necessary.

at last, we appear to agree on a point.

"If we could have progressed past you chanting that silly question for weeks you would have found( if you asked) that I have no issue with ships being searched first...even if they have to be sent to an interim port to be searched or searched at sea."

Now once the US flagged Red Cross vessel has been thoroughly searched why can't it dock in Gaza again?
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Old 21st January 2011, 08:42 AM   #4683
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Now once the US flagged Red Cross vessel has been thoroughly searched why can't it dock in Gaza again?
Because then there's more opportunity for smuggling. Far easier to keep the waters off Gaza as clear of boats as possible.

You don't like that? Then work to form a government in Gaza that isn't hostile to Israel. So long as they insist on war with Israel, they will have to live under whatever rules Israel feels are necessary to protect their people.

Do you think there's anything at all that Hamas could do to make life better for the people in Gaza?
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Old 21st January 2011, 10:27 AM   #4684
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post

Now once the US flagged Red Cross vessel has been thoroughly searched why can't it dock in Gaza again?
Wouldn't it be easier to offload the cargo and move it to Gaza by truck? If that were the plan, would you have a problem with it?

Have you ever been on a cargo ship?
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Old 21st January 2011, 10:29 AM   #4685
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
so the policy of allowing supplies overland makes it impossible to stop Hamas from importing weapons too.
I think it’s a lot easier to search a truck than it is to search a cargo ship. Further, if you are able to successfully hide weapons on a truck, they will be fewer and smaller weapons than could be hid on a cargo ship.

That’s pretty simple to understand, isn’t it?

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
As demonstrated by the fact they have weapons.....so you must be in favor of zero overland too??
No.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Otherwise you are just supporting policy that makes it impossible to prevent all weapons.
Oh, now it’s all weapons?


Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I know....but you are only concerned with stuff I make up, not stuff Wildcat makes up....like "you don't have any issues at all with Hamas importing weapons from Iran and Syria, or at least don't think they should be prevented from it"

where did I say that mycroft? Going to chastise wildcat?
I think that when you make sarcasm as your primary method of getting your point across, and then refuse to provide supporting evidence for anything you have to say, then refuse to clarify your point of view by actually describing it when you claim other people get it wrong…that whining about how misunderstood you are doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Now, are you game to comment on the topic of maritime restrictions? The question is why does it have to be all or nothing. Can you think beyond a false dichotomy fallacy? Hang on you probably don't have an opinion on that do you.
If you believe there is middle ground that’s being overlooked, what’s stopping you from describing what it is and discussing it rather than whining that it’s being overlooked?
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Old 21st January 2011, 01:59 PM   #4686
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
keep asking.....I think Rabbis on the national payroll is a "quaint pseudo theocratic principle".
I think having a state religion is a "quaint pseudo theocratic principle". whats the next irrelevant question?
that should give you some good material for further diversion.
See, this is why you’re supposed to give evidence when asked. Often opinions are based on wrong information, and when you give evidence these things can be exposed and dialogue can move forward.


Israel has not established Judaism as a state religion.

But for the sake of argument we assume that Israel did establish a state religion, that wouldn’t make it any different from many other countries.

Greece, Finland, Liechtenstein, Costa Rica, Denmark, Iceland, Norwar, and again Finland.

In none of these cases does the establishment of a state church threaten the rights of the religious minorities who practice other religions or no religion at all, or make the state a theocracy, or even make them less of a Western democracy. In all of these cases the state pays the salaries of the clergy.

And this doesn’t even touch on the many nations that proclaim Islam as their state religion.

This is why if you’re going to make sweeping generalizations about different classes of citizens and rights violations that you need to back up your allegations with specifics rather than vague innuendos.
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Old 21st January 2011, 02:36 PM   #4687
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Israel has not established Judaism as a state religion.

But for the sake of argument we assume that Israel did establish a state religion, that wouldn’t make it any different from many other countries.

Greece, Finland, Liechtenstein, Costa Rica, Denmark, Iceland, Norwar, and again Finland.
Do these countries have immigration and other policies that discriminate against prospective immigrants and citizens, based on religion?

I bet they don't.
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Old 21st January 2011, 08:39 PM   #4688
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think it’s a lot easier to search a truck than it is to search a cargo ship. Further, if you are able to successfully hide weapons on a truck, they will be fewer and smaller weapons than could be hid on a cargo ship.

That’s pretty simple to understand, isn’t it?
yes, It would be easier to search a truck than a ship but there would be a lot less ships than trucks. And you still have not addressed the question of why...if you can't guarantee nothing is missed with ships you have to prevent them all but if its not possible to guarantee nothing is missed overland then you don't have to prevent it all.
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Old 21st January 2011, 08:41 PM   #4689
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
Do these countries have immigration and other policies that discriminate against prospective immigrants and citizens, based on religion?

I bet they don't.
wow...never realised that the home of the jews where rabbis are on the state payroll is not actually a jewish state. Despite that they constantly demand people accept this fact.
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Old 21st January 2011, 08:57 PM   #4690
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Wouldn't it be easier to offload the cargo and move it to Gaza by truck? If that were the plan, would you have a problem with it?

Have you ever been on a cargo ship?
offloading the cargo vessel directly at the destination port is much faster and more efficient than backloading it onto trucks at a distant location. especially for fresh produce. I also can't really see the point of adding an additional and unnecessary offload/load to the chain. Unless your goal is to disrupt and delay the flow. I have no issues with accomodating reasonable Israeli demands for the prevention of weapons smuggling but I'm not keen on pandering to acts designed to disrupt food and humanitarian supplies and keep the economy of Gaza at rock bottom.
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Old 21st January 2011, 09:19 PM   #4691
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If Gaza became a civilized state and not ruled by a terrorist organization, and were able to do so for at least one year. They could join the rest of world in living in peace. It will never happen while they fire rockets into Israeli territory every single day.
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Old 21st January 2011, 11:06 PM   #4692
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
offloading the cargo vessel directly at the destination port is much faster and more efficient than backloading it onto trucks at a distant location. especially for fresh produce. I also can't really see the point of adding an additional and unnecessary offload/load to the chain. Unless your goal is to disrupt and delay the flow. I have no issues with accomodating reasonable Israeli demands for the prevention of weapons smuggling but I'm not keen on pandering to acts designed to disrupt food and humanitarian supplies and keep the economy of Gaza at rock bottom.
Do you think there's anything at all Hamas could do to help the economy in Gaza?
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Old 21st January 2011, 11:11 PM   #4693
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Do you think there's anything at all Hamas could do to help the economy in Gaza?
yes.

I was wondering if you had called back into the thread to answer this..

"Now once the US flagged Red Cross vessel has been thoroughly searched why can't it dock in Gaza again?"
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Old 22nd January 2011, 02:01 AM   #4694
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Do you think there's anything at all Hamas could do to help the economy in Gaza?
Yes. give up their terrorist tendencies.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 08:44 AM   #4695
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
yes.
Could you elaborate on that? What do you think they could do?

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I was wondering if you had called back into the thread to answer this..

"Now once the US flagged Red Cross vessel has been thoroughly searched why can't it dock in Gaza again?"
I already answered that question. But since you apparently couldn't understand my previous answer I'll give an analogy: Once you pass through security at an airport, do they let you out of the secure area, then back in, without another security check?

Hamas couold end the blockade almost immediately if they chose to do so. It's not Israel's fault they don't.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 10:48 AM   #4696
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Hamas could let a third party run their seaport.

though something tells me even that, would not satisfy Israel.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 10:56 AM   #4697
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
Hamas could let a third party run their seaport.

though something tells me even that, would not satisfy Israel.
Who should pay for that? And would that 3rd party be willing to fight Hamas if the need arises? Who controls traffic offshore in this scenario?
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Old 22nd January 2011, 01:09 PM   #4698
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Ah, the difficulties of maintaining a neverending war while simultaneously relying entirely upon the kindness of strangers.

Will the trials and tribulations of the professional victims never cease?
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Old 22nd January 2011, 01:15 PM   #4699
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Ah, the difficulties of maintaining a neverending war while simultaneously relying entirely upon the kindness of strangers.

Will the trials and tribulations of the professional victims never cease?
That statement is a little too ambiguous.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 01:16 PM   #4700
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Will the trials and tribulations of the professional victims never cease?
are you talking about the Palestinians or the Israelis?
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Old 22nd January 2011, 04:09 PM   #4701
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
yes, It would be easier to search a truck than a ship but there would be a lot less ships than trucks. And you still have not addressed the question of why...if you can't guarantee nothing is missed with ships you have to prevent them all but if its not possible to guarantee nothing is missed overland then you don't have to prevent it all.
Easier isn't the point, security is. It's easiest to just throw open the borders and not do anything, but if Israel wants to make sure its citizens are not blown up then that's not a good option.

And who made the criteria to "guarantee nothing is missed"? That's your own personal straw-man, so have fun with it.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
wow...never realised that the home of the jews where rabbis are on the state payroll is not actually a jewish state. Despite that they constantly demand people accept this fact.
Wow, that's amazingly dishonest even for you.

Nowhere did I claim Israel was not a "Jewish state". What I did say is that Israel has not made Judaism an official state religion but that even if they had, they would be in good company with dozens of other nations, many of which are considered modern democracies.

I also state that being a "Jewish state" is bad for the non-Jewish citizens, you need to show actual examples of how it's bad. That is, to back up your claims with evidence. Sarcastically saying nonsense like, "What do you think Jewish state means?!" doesn't provide any meaningful information.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
offloading the cargo vessel directly at the destination port is much faster and more efficient than backloading it onto trucks at a distant location. especially for fresh produce.
And yet fresh produce seems to get in anyhow.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I also can't really see the point of adding an additional and unnecessary offload/load to the chain.
Of course you don't see the point. You don't seem to see the point of Israelis valuing their own lives and security. It's clear you're never going to change your mind on this, but surely even you can see Israelis will disagree with you.

Or maybe you wont see that. Who knows.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Unless your goal is to disrupt and delay the flow. I have no issues with accomodating reasonable Israeli demands for the prevention of weapons smuggling but I'm not keen on pandering to acts designed to disrupt food and humanitarian supplies and keep the economy of Gaza at rock bottom.
Which brings us back full circle. Keeping the Gaza port closed and the naval blockade going seems like a reasonable security measure. Reasonable enough that even most critics of Israel agree with it, except for the actual nut-cases on the ships trying to run these blockades. But you and a few others seem to believe that Hamas should have a sea port.

If you think more stuff should be allowed in by land crossings, that's another issue. That could be done while maintaining security at its current levels.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 04:11 PM   #4702
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
That statement is a little too ambiguous.
I'm pretty sure that was his point.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 05:48 PM   #4703
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Could you elaborate on that? What do you think they could do?
one thing they could do would be to stop random rockets fired into Israel, that would be a good first step.

Quote:
I already answered that question. But since you apparently couldn't understand my previous answer I'll give an analogy: Once you pass through security at an airport, do they let you out of the secure area, then back in, without another security check?
yea whatever....Us flagged Red cross ship would tie up with a baddie vessel in the middle of the Israeli blockade zone....where they have modern radar systems and know where every vessel is...they would transfer Heavy weapons at sea....Approximately how many people on the Red cross vessel would have to keep their mouths shut to make that conspiracy theory hold water?

Quote:
Hamas could end the blockade almost immediately if they chose to do so. It's not Israel's fault they don't.
wrong...only Israel can end the Blockade. Hamas could only do things that Israel says would lead to the blockade being lifted. What has Israel said on that? "what would they have to do to "end the blockade almost immediately" and where has Israel stated this?

all I have ever seen is that Palestinians have to cease all fighting, Do exactly as they are told....for an unspecified length of time.... during which they would have to presumably accept whatever Israel does in the territories before finally Israel may of may not cease restrictions. May or may not allow a palestinian state... Cannot understand why they don't jump at that one.


Personally I think the current clowns running Israel and their cheersquads are simply making in inevitable that the day will come when the world community will simply tire of the ongoing ganes and simply recognize a palestinian state. Then all the current clowns and their cheersquads will wake up one morning and wonder why the world has changed without them noticing.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 05:56 PM   #4704
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I also state that being a "Jewish state" is bad for the non-Jewish citizens, you need to show actual examples of how it's bad. That is, to back up your claims with evidence.
there are benefits that Jewish immigrants have that non-Jewish immigrants do not have.

Israel has built thousands of new cities, towns, villages, for Jewish citizens.

Only now are they going to finally start building one for Arab citizens.

Israel allows citizens to get back land that was confiscated by the Jordanians between 1949 and 1967.

However, Israel does NOT allow citizens or permanent residents to get back land that was confiscated by Israel after 1949.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 06:00 PM   #4705
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
one thing they could do would be to stop random rockets fired into Israel, that would be a good first step.
Is taht all? Do you think they could release the hostages they hold? Re-join the PA? Declare an end to hostilities towards Israel?

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
yea whatever....Us flagged Red cross ship would tie up with a baddie vessel in the middle of the Israeli blockade zone....
There is no blockade in this scenario, remember? Who's going to keep watch at sea?

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
where they have modern radar systems and know where every vessel is...they would transfer Heavy weapons at sea....Approximately how many people on the Red cross vessel would have to keep their mouths shut to make that conspiracy theory hold water?
Yes, they would transfer weapons at sea. They've been doiung that for years... greatly reduced, however, since the blockade which also imposed a 3-mile limit (or whatever it is) for Gaza fishing boats.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
wrong...only Israel can end the Blockade. Hamas could only do things that Israel says would lead to the blockade being lifted. What has Israel said on that? "what would they have to do to "end the blockade almost immediately" and where has Israel stated this?
1. End all hostilities
2. Recognize Israel's right to exist
3. Mean it

It's really that simple.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
all I have ever seen is that Palestinians have to cease all fighting, Do exactly as they are told....for an unspecified length of time.... during which they would have to presumably accept whatever Israel does in the territories before finally Israel may of may not cease restrictions. May or may not allow a palestinian state... Cannot understand why they don't jump at that one.
And yet you expect Israel to help them while they are fighting them. It's absurd.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Personally I think the current clowns running Israel and their cheersquads are simply making in inevitable that the day will come when the world community will simply tire of the ongoing ganes and simply recognize a palestinian state. Then all the current clowns and their cheersquads will wake up one morning and wonder why the world has changed without them noticing.
No one is going to recognize Hamastan, you may as well end that fantasy.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 06:43 PM   #4706
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Is taht all? Do you think they could release the hostages they hold? Re-join the PA? Declare an end to hostilities towards Israel?
they seem perfectly reasonable to me...but whatever they do....how long before Israel does anything in return....how long would the "wait and see" go on for and what would Israel be doing in the territories during that time?

Quote:
There is no blockade in this scenario, remember? Who's going to keep watch at sea?
sorry, nobody expects or has required that the IDF vanish.

Quote:
Yes, they would transfer weapons at sea. They've been doiung that for years... greatly reduced, however, since the blockade which also imposed a 3-mile limit (or whatever it is) for Gaza fishing boats.
I'd like to see an example of this....US flagged red cross vessel transferring weapons at sea to Hamas. Quite the imagination you have there.

Quote:
1. End all hostilities
2. Recognize Israel's right to exist
3. Mean it

It's really that simple.
Unfotunately nothing is ever as simple as you imagine....Hamas does all this today and Israel does what?just end the naval blockade? thats a cool deal.
Quote:
And yet you expect Israel to help them while they are fighting them. It's absurd.
no...I expect Israel to not put the civilian population on a diet.

Quote:
No one is going to recognize Hamastan, you may as well end that fantasy.
wow...you have not heard?
http://www.vindy.com/news/2010/dec/3...now/?newswatch
honestly dude the stuff that you and Mycroft can deny with a straigh face is amazing. Israel has recently been protesting this very thing. Nations recognizing palestine......and you can handwave that away with a laughable denial?
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Old 22nd January 2011, 07:50 PM   #4707
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
they seem perfectly reasonable to me...but whatever they do....how long before Israel does anything in return....how long would the "wait and see" go on for and what would Israel be doing in the territories during that time?
That's up for negotiations. I think it could happen fairly quickly.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
sorry, nobody expects or has required that the IDF vanish.
So they can leave the blockade in place now?

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I'd like to see an example of this....US flagged red cross vessel transferring weapons at sea to Hamas. Quite the imagination you have there.
You make everyone abide by the same rules regardless.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Unfotunately nothing is ever as simple as you imagine....Hamas does all this today and Israel does what?just end the naval blockade? thats a cool deal.
Yes, if Hamas did all that I'm 100% certain the naval blockade would end. I'd even make an avatar bet with you...

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
no...I expect Israel to not put the civilian population on a diet.
And UN statistics show that Gaza is better nouirished than every country in the region except for Israel. better than Saudi Arabia, better than Egypt, even better than in Turkey, where the flotilla originated ironically enough. The rest of the region could use such a diet!

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
wow...you have not heard?
http://www.vindy.com/news/2010/dec/3...now/?newswatch
honestly dude the stuff that you and Mycroft can deny with a straigh face is amazing. Israel has recently been protesting this very thing. Nations recognizing palestine......and you can handwave that away with a laughable denial?
Can you quote the part where Hamas was recognized as the legitimate government in Gaza?
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Old 22nd January 2011, 09:58 PM   #4708
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Yes, if Hamas did all that I'm 100% certain the naval blockade would end. I'd even make an avatar bet with you...
Pretty safe bet, there. That's not what I'd call "gambling"
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Old 23rd January 2011, 01:42 AM   #4709
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
are you talking about the Palestinians or the Israelis?
The Israelis have over 1.2 billion moslems and left leaning Westerners that practically hate their guts. So, who do you think are the victims in here?
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Old 23rd January 2011, 01:48 AM   #4710
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
there are benefits that Jewish immigrants have that non-Jewish immigrants do not have.

Israel has built thousands of new cities, towns, villages, for Jewish citizens.

Only now are they going to finally start building one for Arab citizens.

Israel allows citizens to get back land that was confiscated by the Jordanians between 1949 and 1967.

However, Israel does NOT allow citizens or permanent residents to get back land that was confiscated by Israel after 1949.
Does the US government hand back to the Red Indians the land they confiscated after federation? That goes for most European settlements of the new world.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 02:40 AM   #4711
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
That's up for negotiations. I think it could happen fairly quickly.
and it could be delayed significantly or even indefinitely. Tell you what....why not lift the blockade and Hamas will agree to peace at some unspecified time in the future?

Quote:
So they can leave the blockade in place now?
yes...whenever things are not all or nothing you do tend to get confused.

Quote:
You make everyone abide by the same rules regardless.
yes I know....100% exclusion no matter what.

Quote:
Yes, if Hamas did all that I'm 100% certain the naval blockade would end. I'd even make an avatar bet with you...
yes I know....you would like to see it happen some time in the future....

Quote:
And UN statistics show that Gaza is better nouirished than every country in the region except for Israel. better than Saudi Arabia, better than Egypt, even better than in Turkey, where the flotilla originated ironically enough. The rest of the region could use such a diet!
Yes I know....everyone is just imagining hardship in gaza....

Quote:
Can you quote the part where Hamas was recognized as the legitimate government in Gaza?
don't you recognize them as the legitimate government? You certainly seem keen to require them to behave as such.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 02:48 AM   #4712
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Originally Posted by amb View Post
Does the US government hand back to the Red Indians the land they confiscated after federation? That goes for most European settlements of the new world.
The founding of the UN and it's rules was supposed to signify that those times were over. No more confiscating land that's not yours. Everyone agree to those rules. Despite the apparent distaste for the UN by some, the US still holds up those laws, and is continually encouraging Israel to hand that land over, since it is held illegally. This is the US, Israel's staunchest ally, encouraging the end of settlements and the creation of a Palestinian state on that land.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 03:09 AM   #4713
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
The founding of the UN and it's rules was supposed to signify that those times were over. No more confiscating land that's not yours. Everyone agree to those rules. Despite the apparent distaste for the UN by some, the US still holds up those laws, and is continually encouraging Israel to hand that land over, since it is held illegally. This is the US, Israel's staunchest ally, encouraging the end of settlements and the creation of a Palestinian state on that land.
Israel, like the moslems have their extremist, who believe that god promised them this land through Moses thousands of years ago. They will not go quietly, and their votes as a group can make or unmake a government.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 02:26 PM   #4714
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
and it could be delayed significantly or even indefinitely. Tell you what....why not lift the blockade and Hamas will agree to peace at some unspecified time in the future?
Isn't that kinda like Arab peace offers to date? Give us everything we want and we'll consider negotiating? We'll give you peace...until the expiration date?

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
yes...whenever things are not all or nothing you do tend to get confused.
Whoa, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? All or nothing false choices feature prominently in your toolbox, don't they?


Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Yes I know....everyone is just imagining hardship in gaza....
What, your faith tells you differently? You know better than to believe all that lying evidence?

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
don't you recognize them as the legitimate government? You certainly seem keen to require them to behave as such.
I think the issue here is you expect them to be treated like one even though they don't act like one. That's the way it is in general, you want Palestinians to have everything but you don't think they should be required to do anything for it. With the Israelis it's just the opposite, you think they should do everything but don't think they're entitled to get anythign for it.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 02:30 PM   #4715
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
The founding of the UN and it's rules was supposed to signify that those times were over. No more confiscating land that's not yours. Everyone agree to those rules. Despite the apparent distaste for the UN by some, the US still holds up those laws, and is continually encouraging Israel to hand that land over, since it is held illegally. This is the US, Israel's staunchest ally, encouraging the end of settlements and the creation of a Palestinian state on that land.
Can you cite something of the foundational documents of the UN that supports this point of view?
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Old 23rd January 2011, 04:14 PM   #4716
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What, your faith tells you differently? You know better than to believe all that lying evidence?


i'll just add "there is hardship in Gaza" to the list of things you laughably deny...right below Judaism is the state religion of the Jewish state....

sorry but attempting to run a discussion with you is pointless.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 05:18 PM   #4717
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think the issue here is you expect them to be treated like one even though they don't act like one. That's the way it is in general, you want Palestinians to have everything but you don't think they should be required to do anything for it. With the Israelis it's just the opposite, you think they should do everything but don't think they're entitled to get anythign for it.
To allow the creation of the palestinian state I expect the palestinians to be required to do all the things Jews were required to do to allow the foundation of Israel. sound reasonable?

what were jews required to do Mycroft?
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Old 23rd January 2011, 05:51 PM   #4718
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Secret papers reveal slow death of Middle East peace process

• Massive new leak lifts lid on negotiations
• PLO offered Israel key settlements
• Concessions on refugees and Holy sites

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ace-concession
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Old 23rd January 2011, 06:07 PM   #4719
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
i'll just add "there is hardship in Gaza" to the list of things you laughably deny...right below Judaism is the state religion of the Jewish state....

sorry but attempting to run a discussion with you is pointless.
That's funny how you transform your own denial of UN statistics on the nourishment of the people of Gaza to my supposed denial of all hardships in Gaza.

Don't you get tired of this kind of lying? Do you really think you're going to get away with it when I'm right here to point it out? You're not exactly covering yourself in glory here, maybe it's time to withdraw.
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Old 23rd January 2011, 06:14 PM   #4720
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
To allow the creation of the palestinian state I expect the palestinians to be required to do all the things Jews were required to do to allow the foundation of Israel. sound reasonable?

what were jews required to do Mycroft?
Well, for starters they had to abide by the agreements they made and not turn down all the deals offered to them.

Do you think that's too much to ask of Palestinians?

Maybe you could create your own list, hmmm?
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