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Old 7th December 2019, 04:54 PM   #3001
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
And then, if he reincarnates, he will have absolutely no knowledge of his past crimes, so how is this going to help him live a better life?
It seems he will have the "latent characteristics" of a mass-murdering dictator. I'll leave it to your imagination to say what kind of life that predisposes him to. What is a "latent characteristic?" It appears to be something that has enough of the effective properties of memory to save Scorpion's bacon, but without using the word "memory."
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Old 7th December 2019, 07:36 PM   #3002
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't know about three things, but the spirit guide of Ursula Roberts said in a trance lecture that Mozart was a musician in nine incarnations before he was born as the prodigy.

This anecdote as an example of, or evidence for, the reincarnation narrative of improving ones innate character over multiple sequential incarnations, doesn't make sense. Even if we accept at face value that Mozart's musical talent arose from a process of deliberately developing that talent over multiple incarnations.

For one thing, musical virtuosity has bugger all to do with moral character. The lives of great composers and musical performers (and virtuoso artists of all types) are far from a parade of exemplary personal character. Taken as a whole I'm not even sure they'd average out to average (though Mozart himself appears to have been neither particularly venal nor particularly praiseworthy in overall character). So what are the Angels of Karma doing selecting* for musical talent? If you're trying to improve a dairy herd's milk production you don't make selection choices to improve a few cows' dancing ability. It seems a stunt, a sideshow orthogonal to the supposed purpose.

Second, and related to that, Mozart's musical virtuosity does not appear to have done a whole lot of good for Mozart. It's a myth that Mozart died in abject poverty and misery, but he was in debt when he died and it was not until after his early death that his works were widely appreciated. There's no evidence that he sought or achieved moral or spiritual improvement, nor overcame any great moral or spiritual shortcoming, via his music.

This doesn't present any problem for a conventional narrative of divine acts by angels or gods or muses who confer extraordinary talents on certain mortals, thereby indirectly gifting the human world with their deeds or works. Mozart's music as a divine gift to mankind is a narrative that makes sense to most theists. But not for the Angels of Karma! Because by what we've been told here, improving the world is not their job.

Or if it is their job, that's a crucial part of how the world works that's been omitted from the spiritualist narrative. If the Angels of Karma deliberately assigned a musically adept spirit to a musically destined life for the purpose of introducing great music into the world to benefit others, that upsets the whole applecart. Because the applecart is built on the core idea that only direct personal experience contributes to spiritual progression. Such as, one can only learn sympathy for slaves by living lifetimes enslaved. Improving the world, such as by working to abolish slavery in some region, is not necessary or conducive to that process.

If we can learn from the world, from the lives of heroic reformers, from the works of great artists, from the efforts of doctors and scientists, from the stories told by great novelists and filmmakers; if we can improve the world and not just ourselves; if the fact that Mozart lived and composed could benefit all of us and not just some miscellaneous spirit who happened to be wearing Mozart at the time; why, then the Angels of Karma and the whole creaky apparatus of lifetimes of educational oppression and suffering would be shown up as cruel and wasteful.

I would imagine a truly devoted spiritualist would not want to upset that applecart by even breathing the name of Mozart.


*Note that the process that's been described here, of selecting predestined lives for each spirit's moral advancement, fulfills all the criteria for artificial selection in the Darwinian sense. It's not exactly a selective breeding program, but it's purported to have the same rationale and same long-term effects as one: the improvement of innate characteristics of a population toward some pre-determined desired condition.
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Old 8th December 2019, 12:49 AM   #3003
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Mozart's musical ability is fully explained by the usual combination of nature and nurture. No addiitional fanciful explanation involving reincarnated souls is required.
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Old 8th December 2019, 06:12 AM   #3004
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Mozart's musical ability is fully explained by the usual combination of nature and nurture. No addiitional fanciful explanation involving reincarnated souls is required.
The Law Of Parsimony, aka Occamís Razor, strikes again!
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Old 8th December 2019, 07:23 AM   #3005
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Mozart's musical ability is fully explained by the usual combination of nature and nurture. No addiitional fanciful explanation involving reincarnated souls is required.

Of course, and I've said as much, either earlier in this thread or in a previous one where spiritualist narratives of reincarnation were discussed and Mozart's talents offered as an example. Mozart's father was a noted music teacher, who dropped all his other pursuits to instruct his one surviving son.

I'm just pointing out that even within the overall spiritualist reincarnation narrative, Karma angels taking on the role of selective breeders of musical talent doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Old 8th December 2019, 10:58 AM   #3006
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Sorry to get back to Hitler, but, say he reincarnated. Someone has to punish or teach a lesson (which won't be remembered.) Then the spirit that did stuff to the Hitler spirit must have its comeuppance; then any spirits that accomplished that... pretty soon it's turtles...... There's no end to it!
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Old 8th December 2019, 01:27 PM   #3007
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Of course, and I've said as much, either earlier in this thread or in a previous one where spiritualist narratives of reincarnation were discussed and Mozart's talents offered as an example. Mozart's father was a noted music teacher, who dropped all his other pursuits to instruct his one surviving son.

I'm just pointing out that even within the overall spiritualist reincarnation narrative, Karma angels taking on the role of selective breeders of musical talent doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
Sorry to get back to Hitler, but, say he reincarnated. Someone has to punish or teach a lesson (which won't be remembered.) Then the spirit that did stuff to the Hitler spirit must have its comeuppance; then any spirits that accomplished that... pretty soon it's turtles...... There's no end to it!

I heartily agree with both of you.

The more one delves into this and tries to make some sense of it, the what if's just explode and you find yourself chasing them all over. No wonder Scorpion is having such a hard time of it. I think he may have packed up his chakras and gone home.
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Old 8th December 2019, 01:29 PM   #3008
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How the sodding hell does this thread have 76 pages...? It's like the first page died and reincarnated 75 times, learning nothing from its previous lives.
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Old 8th December 2019, 01:40 PM   #3009
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
How the sodding hell does this thread have 76 pages...? It's like the first page died and reincarnated 75 times, learning nothing from its previous lives.

Your post (telling of your incredulity), helps the page count build.
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Old 8th December 2019, 01:46 PM   #3010
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Your post (telling of your incredulity), helps the page count build.
Definitely, I've posted in the thread before. I'm just genuinely astounded that it's gotten to 76 pages of absolute waffle. One man set in his ways about what he thinks he sees, hears and feels inside his own mind, and everyone else trying to persuade him otherwise. It's like sitting in a room with Morrissey and trying to explain to him that the Smiths are crap as he sits there in a cardigan humming his own songs under his breath. God, I hate you, Morrissey.
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Old 8th December 2019, 02:19 PM   #3011
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Definitely, I've posted in the thread before. I'm just genuinely astounded that it's gotten to 76 pages of absolute waffle. One man set in his ways about what he thinks he sees, hears and feels inside his own mind, and everyone else trying to persuade him otherwise. It's like sitting in a room with Morrissey and trying to explain to him that the Smiths are crap as he sits there in a cardigan humming his own songs under his breath. God, I hate you, Morrissey.
It's for exactly the same reason that people rubber-neck at a car crash.
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Old 9th December 2019, 02:02 AM   #3012
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I heartily agree with both of you.

The more one delves into this and tries to make some sense of it, the what if's just explode and you find yourself chasing them all over. No wonder Scorpion is having such a hard time of it. I think he may have packed up his chakras and gone home.
It will be another reset.
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Old 9th December 2019, 07:55 AM   #3013
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
You have already justified these horrible things. You've said the horrible sufferings are for the evil spirits who have done horrible things in past lives. These evil spirits need to suffer in order to atone for their previous evil deeds and move the karmic balance back into the positive so they can evolve.
This hits the nail more squarely on the head than I did. In response to Scorpion's pleas that we only talk about the nice parts of his religion, I responded that a religion that doesn't own up to the existence of evil and have a plan for it isn't a religion worth paying attention to. If lofty-sounding pretenses of empty profundity are all your religion can muster, then it fails to answer the big questions -- the ones we most want answers to. Now I said that he had to have a plan to alleviate evil, which is what most religions want to do. Instead, Scorpion's religion embraces evil, war, and depravity as necessary components of its redemption model. At least other religions were smart enough to conjure up a devil upon whom to blame all that, a being whose outcome we have no investment in. It may be a cartoon villain, but at least it's a proper villain. The story is coherent, if a bit simplistic. Scorpion's version can't decide whether the roles we act out under the imposition of angels incurs any responsibility. Good justice says we should answer for the consequences of our free-will decision, but not the consequences of others compelling us to act.
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Old 9th December 2019, 01:18 PM   #3014
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
This hits the nail more squarely on the head than I did. In response to Scorpion's pleas that we only talk about the nice parts of his religion, I responded that a religion that doesn't own up to the existence of evil and have a plan for it isn't a religion worth paying attention to. If lofty-sounding pretenses of empty profundity are all your religion can muster, then it fails to answer the big questions -- the ones we most want answers to. Now I said that he had to have a plan to alleviate evil, which is what most religions want to do. Instead, Scorpion's religion embraces evil, war, and depravity as necessary components of its redemption model. At least other religions were smart enough to conjure up a devil upon whom to blame all that, a being whose outcome we have no investment in. It may be a cartoon villain, but at least it's a proper villain. The story is coherent, if a bit simplistic. Scorpion's version can't decide whether the roles we act out under the imposition of angels incurs any responsibility. Good justice says we should answer for the consequences of our free-will decision, but not the consequences of others compelling us to act.
TBH, I think Scorpion is quite well aware if the nastier consequences of his belief system. He does not like that aspect, so he brushes those under the intellectual rug.
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Old 9th December 2019, 01:20 PM   #3015
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It will be another reset.
To bork an analogy, having painted oneself into a corner, best to do nothing until the paint has dried.
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Old 9th December 2019, 02:02 PM   #3016
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Has Scorpion left the building? I feel like I am talking about him behind his back. Which is OK. He may need time to think.
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Old 9th December 2019, 02:06 PM   #3017
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Has Scorpion left the building? I feel like I am talking about him behind his back. Which is OK. He may need time to think.

He's just gone off to tune up his chakras. He will no doubt keep his finger on the action via his favourite mediums.
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Old 9th December 2019, 02:22 PM   #3018
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Maybe the Angels of Karma have bought him a new computer and he's waiting for the spirits to remind him of his password?
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Old 9th December 2019, 03:27 PM   #3019
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Has Scorpion left the building? I feel like I am talking about him behind his back. Which is OK. He may need time to think.
Actually I have been unwell for a few days with a bug that made me so weak I struggled to get out of bed. Posting was not my priority.
While I was laying in bed stewing in my own juice I reflected on the difficult questions I have been asked, particularly the ones about murdered children and Hitler, and I concluded I don't have answers for them ,and I do not even want to try. It seems to me I might as well bang my head on a wall as try to justify my beliefs here.
To me spiritualism is about hope and healing and ultimate redemption.

I will reiterate that my beliefs remain the same and there are several things that have given me evidence of them. One of those is the voice that told me I had a win on the lottery. Another is that a friend of mine once came running up the road when I was having a mental meltdown, and he burst into my room asking if I was aright. He knew I was in trouble by telepathy or esp.
There are also evidential messages I received from several mediums.

These things are clear in my mind and nobody can convince me they are invalid.

I know I cannot win a debate here, and will not convince anyone of anything, so I figure I might as well give up. Cheers.
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Old 9th December 2019, 04:11 PM   #3020
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I reflected on the difficult questions I have been asked, particularly the ones about murdered children and Hitler, and I concluded I don't have answers for them, and I do not even want to try.
But you have tried. Your answers simply flip-flop between two incompatible claims. You don't have an ultimate answer because you haven't accepted that your claims are inherently contradictory. Your critics see this easily because it's frankly nothing new. The problem of predestination is well studied in theology. Not well solved, but well studied.

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It seems to me I might as well bang my head on a wall as try to justify my beliefs here.
Which is why everyone keeps asking what you hope to accomplish here. You have a homegrown religion riddled with speculation, contradiction, and giant plot holes. Until you have a justification that fixes that, skeptics are going to continue pointing them out to you, and continue being relatively unsympathetic to your frustration. When you can't make head or tail out of your own beliefs, it's the skeptic's job to frustrate you.

The unspoken question is what you're going to do with that frustration. In the past you've vented it on skeptics, trying to pin fault on them for not buying your arguments. Is that still the plan?

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To me spiritualism is about hope and healing and ultimate redemption.
No.

As much as you want to look the other way, your religion requires suffering at the hands of others in order to bring about "ultimate redemption." And these others get assigned without their consent to such maleficent lives. The system you've tried to devise is obviously morally repugnant. Other religions do a much better job of reckoning the problem of evil. A few try to ignore it. You wallow in it. No, your religion is not about fluffy bunnies and happy times. It's about trying to justify evil.

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I will reiterate that my beliefs remain the same...
Of course, because you have no intention of examining them critically, much less changing them to accommodate its own logical inconsistency or to account for contrary fact. You came here entrenched and you will leave entrenched. No surprise there. You might apologize to your critics for wasting their time trying to educate you or help you see where you went wrong.

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These things are clear in my mind and nobody can convince me they are invalid.
You suffer from untreated schizophrenia. Of what evidentiary value is your avowed clarity of mind under those circumstances?

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I know I cannot win a debate here...
Why do you think that is?
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Old 9th December 2019, 05:06 PM   #3021
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Actually I have been unwell for a few days with a bug that made me so weak I struggled to get out of bed. Posting was not my priority.
While I was laying in bed stewing in my own juice I reflected on the difficult questions I have been asked, particularly the ones about murdered children and Hitler, and I concluded I don't have answers for them ,and I do not even want to try. It seems to me I might as well bang my head on a wall as try to justify my beliefs here.
To me spiritualism is about hope and healing and ultimate redemption.

I will reiterate that my beliefs remain the same and there are several things that have given me evidence of them. One of those is the voice that told me I had a win on the lottery. Another is that a friend of mine once came running up the road when I was having a mental meltdown, and he burst into my room asking if I was aright. He knew I was in trouble by telepathy or esp.
There are also evidential messages I received from several mediums.

These things are clear in my mind and nobody can convince me they are invalid.

I know I cannot win a debate here, and will not convince anyone of anything, so I figure I might as well give up. Cheers.

Sorry to hear you've been ill. I hope you get and stay well.

Listen, I've enjoyed reading about your Spiritualist experiences and narratives, and I've enjoyed discussing and criticizing them, comparing them with other similar reincarnation narratives I've learned elsewhere, and exploring their implications. All the while, your demeanor in this discourse has been exemplary. In the occultist and religious circles I hang in when I'm not hanging here (particularly, in the former), you would be regarded by most as a thoughtful soul well advanced along "the path" of spiritual advancement.

You've been dealt some very difficult circumstances in your life, circumstances that relatively few people have proven able to deal with successfully. If your beliefs have helped you to do so, then that's a strong point in favor of your holding them, regardless of their objective truth or our assessment of their plausibility. Perhaps that's the only point that matters. We can speculate that some different set of beliefs closer to ours might work even better, but no one can conclude that with any certainty.

You're not the only one here with beliefs that might not stand up to skeptical scrutiny. There are quite a few people here who believe, for instance, that human progress by means of science and technology is destined to continue indefinitely until we've perfected life on earth and colonized space. I find that as difficult to believe as rogue Angels of Karma giving out lottery numbers, but I don't spend too much time trying to convince those people otherwise. Others probably feel the same about my own belief that we are very likely in the early stages of a centuries-long decline toward a dark age.

Just about the least interesting question one can ask about a religion is whether it's true. Such a discussion in this venue can only be framed as a debate on that very question. But since you're not demanding to teach Spiritualism in schools, or trying to pass laws based on your narratives, or even making recommendations to others on what practices to adopt, it's not necessary at all to think in terms of winning or losing such a debate.
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Old 9th December 2019, 05:48 PM   #3022
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Actually I have been unwell for a few days with a bug that made me so weak I struggled to get out of bed. Posting was not my priority.
While I was laying in bed stewing in my own juice I reflected on the difficult questions I have been asked, particularly the ones about murdered children and Hitler, and I concluded I don't have answers for them ,and I do not even want to try. It seems to me I might as well bang my head on a wall as try to justify my beliefs here.
To me spiritualism is about hope and healing and ultimate redemption.

I will reiterate that my beliefs remain the same and there are several things that have given me evidence of them. One of those is the voice that told me I had a win on the lottery. Another is that a friend of mine once came running up the road when I was having a mental meltdown, and he burst into my room asking if I was aright. He knew I was in trouble by telepathy or esp.
There are also evidential messages I received from several mediums.

These things are clear in my mind and nobody can convince me they are invalid.

I know I cannot win a debate here, and will not convince anyone of anything, so I figure I might as well give up. Cheers.
Scorpion. I am sorry you have been ill, really. And, you sound dejected and I am also sorry about that. When I am ill, it seems to zap all physical and mental energy.

Also, please wait on your decision to leave. At least until you feel better.
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Old 9th December 2019, 08:10 PM   #3023
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

These things are clear in my mind and nobody can convince me they are invalid.
Nobody has to convince you that they are invalid. They are your claims. You bear the burden of proof to demonstrate them to be valid. If you refuse that burden of proof, then nobody need believe said wild claims. They can be dismissed out of hand. That which is asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

And think about what you just said. Suppose I claimed that the horse power of my car is due to horses being killed and distilled and bottled and shoved under the hood of my car.

Suppose I further claimed that there is no way anyone could convince me other that that my car was propelled by distilled essence of horse being inserted into the space where the alleged engine is supposed to be.

Would you simply believe me? Or would you have honking great questions?

Would you accept "because I say so" as an explanation?

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I know I cannot win a debate here, and will not convince anyone of anything, so I figure I might as well give up. Cheers.
You are not in a debate. You are a participant in a discussion. That is a very different thing. To be in a "debate" you would first need to have a valid case to make with supporting evidence. You have neither of those. Indeed, you seem to have not a clue what those might even be.

All that we have here is you attempting to avoid the unpleasant yet inevitable consequences of your belief system (if it can be termed such).

You are uncomfortable with those consequences even though you know them to be part and parcel of your world view.

We could, of course, openly discuss such issues, but no. You have no interest in any discussion. Your priority is to protect the cherished idea at all cost. Even if that means retreat in an outright rout.
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Old 10th December 2019, 06:53 AM   #3024
Gamolon
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Actually I have been unwell for a few days with a bug that made me so weak I struggled to get out of bed. Posting was not my priority.
I hope you feel better soon.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
While I was laying in bed stewing in my own juice I reflected on the difficult questions I have been asked, particularly the ones about murdered children and Hitler, and I concluded I don't have answers for them
But you DID have answers for them. You stated those answers many times. The problem was that as people questioned you on those answers, you ended up contradicting what you stated before all in the name of trying to make your belief system contain nothing but unicorns and rainbows.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
,and I do not even want to try.
Right. You don't want to look at the bad side of your beliefs, only the good side.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It seems to me I might as well bang my head on a wall as try to justify my beliefs here.
Why are you getting frustrated with people here when you're the one who presented your belief system and then when questioned about it, you ignore half of it (the bad side) and also contradict many of those beliefs?

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
To me spiritualism is about hope and healing and ultimate redemption.
Why do you have blinders on? You're the one who says suffering is needed and that there have to be spirits (who have no choice in the matter) who cause said suffering.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I will reiterate that my beliefs remain the same and there are several things that have given me evidence of them.
That's all well and good. Your evidence and teachers have told you that there is also evil within your belief system that you want to plug your ears and continually say "la la la" to.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
One of those is the voice that told me I had a win on the lottery. Another is that a friend of mine once came running up the road when I was having a mental meltdown, and he burst into my room asking if I was aright. He knew I was in trouble by telepathy or esp.
There are also evidential messages I received from several mediums.
And that is just one of the contradictions you created. Interference from the spirit world which you said was forbidden. When this was pointed out, you started revising your beliefs on the spot to try and correct it. That got you into even more contradictions.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
These things are clear in my mind and nobody can convince me they are invalid.
I for one am not trying to convince you that your experiences were valid or not. I am simply pointing out how your belief system changes at the drop of a dime when contradictions and the evil nature within (by your own explanation) are brought up.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I know I cannot win a debate here, and will not convince anyone of anything, so I figure I might as well give up. Cheers.
Are you trying to convince yourself of what you believe or are you here to test your beliefs and refine them? Again, you are the one who presented exactly how your belief system works and when it became difficult for you to deal with the fact that there is evil within it or contradictions, you want to take your ball and go home.
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Old 10th December 2019, 11:59 AM   #3025
Blue Mountain
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Scorpion, is there any room in your belief system for an entity (or force) that wittingly or even unwittingly works against the Angels of Karma? It would go a long way toward answering the problem of bad things happening, or of there being just downright evil people.
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