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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 4th December 2019, 06:18 PM   #2161
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
To answer your question, it's because sexual fetishism is more common among men than women, and transwomen are a type of man.
Gold star for you! (Wasn't all that difficult, though, was it?)


But, to further elaborate, in my list of things that I saw in that venture, a few of which I truly wish I could unsee, I saw a whole bunch of MtF transgender folks, but not many FtMs.

I'm sure that will be another "unproven assertion", but I promise you I will not post links to provide proof.
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Old 4th December 2019, 07:25 PM   #2162
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Some time ago someone who also wouldn't post links told me roughly what to google and like an idiot I did. I need to scrub my brain out with a brillo pad.

And no doubt we'll have all the apologists on again saying, but what about the women who do [fill in stomach-churning fetishistic behaviour here]? They don't. Women don't fetishise female bodies. They don't even seem to fetishise male bodies, or not that I ever saw. Lesbians seldom (I say seldom because no doubt someone will dredge up a report from West Virginia from 1995) harrass women in single-sex spaces, not even other lesbian women.

We need sex-segregated spaces for a reason, and whatever we do about the genuinely dysphoric, post-operative transwomen we used to accept on a grace-and-favour basis, what we absolutely cannot do is permit any man who pleases to self-identify in there with us.
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Old 4th December 2019, 07:28 PM   #2163
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Gold star for you! (Wasn't all that difficult, though, was it?)


But, to further elaborate, in my list of things that I saw in that venture, a few of which I truly wish I could unsee, I saw a whole bunch of MtF transgender folks, but not many FtMs.

I'm sure that will be another "unproven assertion", but I promise you I will not post links to provide proof.
You must have taken a look at reddit's trans section, did you? A right bunch of freaks on there.

There's been a massive rise in the diagnosis of gender dysphoria among teenage girls recently, so I presume in future the male to female ratio of the trans people will reverse.
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Old 4th December 2019, 07:30 PM   #2164
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These girls are mostly ROGD though, and it seems to be shaping up that this demographic is particularly likely to detransition. I think we're only seeing the start of that phase.
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Old 4th December 2019, 08:06 PM   #2165
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Speaking of something that touches on a few recent topics, yesterday "Mother Jones" ran an article entitled "The Conservative War on Transgender Rights Has Reached a New Low".

Those dirty swine! I didn't think they could get any lower, but somehow they managed! What did they do, you might ask? Well, they're going after the kids now!


Originally Posted by Mother Jones
This fall, two Republican lawmakers in the state vowed to introduce legislation barring trans kids from receiving certain gender-affirming health care and criminalizing parents who allow their children to transition.
Let me translate that out of Newspeak.

If you want to cut off your balls, you have to wait until you're 18.

"They're going after kids" was also a quote. It was the subtitle of the piece.
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Old 4th December 2019, 09:06 PM   #2166
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https://www.motherjones.com/politics...hed-a-new-low/

Interesting that the story spent a lot of time debunking the idea that we have to stop parents and quack doctors from chopping kids' balls off.

Quote:
“There’s been this incredibly wonderful and impactful rise in visibility of transgender people in the public sphere,” Oakley said. “But at the same time, I think there are many folks who are not educated who have a lot of confusion, who have a lot of questions. Opponents of equality have seized on that gap between visibility and understanding, and they’re trying to exploit that.”
"gender-affirming health care" and "transitioning" for minors refers to social transitioning until puberty and then hormone therapy at most (which is largely reversible).

Basically the article was pushing back precisely against the ignorant alarmist nonsense seen in the post immediately preceding this one.
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Old 4th December 2019, 09:13 PM   #2167
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Speaking of something that touches on a few recent topics, yesterday "Mother Jones" ran an article entitled "The Conservative War on Transgender Rights Has Reached a New Low".

Those dirty swine! I didn't think they could get any lower, but somehow they managed! What did they do, you might ask? Well, they're going after the kids now!




Let me translate that out of Newspeak.

If you want to cut off your balls, you have to wait until you're 18.

"They're going after kids" was also a quote. It was the subtitle of the piece.
I don't know, there's a lot of misinformation (or misunderstandings, whether intentional or innocent) on both sides it seems. People who are against it immediately say "they're castrating kids!". People who are for it say "that's not true!" but never seem to acknowledge that if medical transition goes beyond a certain point (taking cross-gender hormones), that permanent infertility is likely to result.

In this case, the bill in question also appears to outlaw "puberty-blocking drugs to stop or delay normal puberty and cross-sex hormone therapy" for minors.

Quote:
Dr. Izzy Lowell, who runs the Decatur-based gender transition practice Queer Med, called the legislation absurd. Lowell said minors make up about about 25% of Queer Med’s practice.

“The five major medical guideline generators that encompass most of the doctors in the country support gender affirming therapy and surgical intervention,” Lowell said. “To criminalize that would criminalize medical treatment backed by all of the major medical associations.”

In her press release, Ehrhart included quotes from an Atlanta-based pediatric endocrinologist, Dr. Quentin Van Meter, who said the proposal is needed to protect children from “medical experimentation based on wishful social theory.”

“These children are suffering from a psychological condition without biologic basis,” he said. “Using the bludgeon of threatened suicide as justification is first of all cruel, and secondly, not supported by valid published studies.”

Van Meter is president of the American College of Pediatricians, which the Southern Poverty Law Center has deemed an anti-LGBTQ hate group.

Graham said banning children from aligning physically with their gender identity is troubling.

“(Ehrhart’s) contention that this is damaging to children or society is without merit and is a result of the dangerous trend from the most conservative forces to demonize and strip transgender individuals of their humanity,” he said.
https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regi...CjR6Vrle9KHI/#
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Old 4th December 2019, 09:32 PM   #2168
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"gender-affirming health care" and "transitioning" for minors refers to social transitioning until puberty and then hormone therapy at most (which is largely reversible).

Basically the article was pushing back precisely against the ignorant alarmist nonsense seen in the post immediately preceding this one.
Is that correct though?

In the article I link to above, a doctor is quoted:
Quote:
Dr. Izzy Lowell, who runs the Decatur-based gender transition practice Queer Med, called the legislation absurd. Lowell said minors make up about about 25% of Queer Med’s practice.

“The five major medical guideline generators that encompass most of the doctors in the country support gender affirming therapy and surgical intervention,” Lowell said. “To criminalize that would criminalize medical treatment backed by all of the major medical associations.”
I'm also not 100% sure that the effects of cross-gender hormone therapy are always reversible.

https://www.ccrmivf.com/news-events/...ty-transition/

Quote:
For instance, taking testosterone will eventually cause a person to stop ovulating and menstruating, while estrogen will lower sperm count and quality. It takes time to recover those bodily functions ― if you can recover them at all.
Modern medicine does allow sperm or eggs to be collected and preserved ahead of time, but it isn't cheap.

Quote:
Because of this, even if a trans person did have infertility treatment coverage, they wouldn’t be able to qualify as “infertile” to use it, making all treatments out-of-pocket. Egg freezing can cost as much as $15,000, though sperm banking tends to cost no more than $1,000.

Daniels was dismayed to find that he had no health insurance coverage whatsoever for the costs.

“I sat on the phone for hours trying to file a claim because, at that time, the [Affordable Care Act] had kind of said you had to cover trans-related procedures,” he said. “They were refusing to cover pretty much anything.”

Thankfully, Daniels’ mom, who had initially raised the question about grandchildren, gave him and his partner $12,000 to cover the cost of the egg freezing. She later gave the couple another $8,000 to cover the cost of donor sperm and embryo implantation.

“I am privileged, and I recognize that privilege,” Daniels said. “I know how hard it is for people to realize that they will not be able to have their own genetic child unless they can afford egg retrieval or decide to carry the baby themselves.”
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Old 4th December 2019, 09:39 PM   #2169
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"gender-affirming health care" and "transitioning" for minors refers to social transitioning until puberty and then hormone therapy at most (which is largely reversible).
That claim isn't really supported.

Puberty blocking drugs were first used on children to treat "precocious puberty", to delay puberty for kids who were experiencing it at an abnormally young age. And for them, they seem to go through puberty pretty normally if it's delayed to the normal age. But there's very little known about what happens to kids if you delay puberty past the normal time frame for them to experience it. They may not be able to experience a merely delayed puberty. There's almost no information about the long-term safety of puberty blockers for this purpose, and in fact it's an off-label use, meaning the FDA doesn't approve those drugs for this kind of treatment. And that's not even touching the fact that cross-hormone treatments can produce changes which are permanent, including reduced fertility.
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Old 4th December 2019, 09:41 PM   #2170
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Modern medicine does allow sperm or eggs to be collected and preserved ahead of time, but it isn't cheap.
And good luck getting sperm to preserve from a boy that's been put on puberty blockers before he goes through puberty.
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Old 4th December 2019, 09:42 PM   #2171
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Is that correct though?

In the article I link to above, a doctor is quoted:


I'm also not 100% sure that the effects of cross-gender hormone therapy are always reversible.
I did not meant to give the impression of reversibility at any point and I meant more specifically the puberty delaying ones. Puberty blockers are reversible and cross-gender hormones are reversible up to a point. The doctor in the MJ article described starting at very low doses and following up regularly to confirm a positive response. In other words, it sounds like the medical professionals are aware of the risks and proceeding properly.

Quote:
Modern medicine does allow sperm or eggs to be collected and preserved ahead of time, but it isn't cheap.
Granted, but again it does seem like some heed is given to the whole "do no harm" thing.

I can admit I'm a bit biased against the conservative politicians in just about any conservative politician vs. scientist debate, but I can at least say I have a rather rational reason for doing so :9.

Mostly I was just amazed that someone could take an informative piece and summarize it as saying exactly the opposite of what it was saying and have the gall to say they were decoding it from "newspeak" by doing so...

ETA: fragile men fret so damn much about what other people are doing with their penises. 50 years ago it was consternation over men putting their penises in other men, now the idea that someone just might not want a penis at all is so damn threatening. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

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Old 4th December 2019, 09:44 PM   #2172
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I did not meant to give the impression of reversibility at any point and I meant more specifically the puberty delaying ones. Puberty blockers are reversible
We don't know that. Like cross-hormone treatment, they may only be reversible up to a point. If a child is too old when they go off the puberty blockers, they may never experience normal puberty.
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Old 4th December 2019, 09:55 PM   #2173
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
We don't know that. Like cross-hormone treatment, they may only be reversible up to a point. If a child is too old when they go off the puberty blockers, they may never experience normal puberty.
Again, given the close eye being kept on the process and the incredibly low number of people choosing to halt seems to be a strong point in the favor of good medical science in the overall.

Any diagnosis can be wrong, any procedure can be botched. Look at cancer treatment over the decades. The numbers were surely abysmal at some point, but yet we kept at it. I'm sure there were all kinds of attempts to shut down the "quack doctors" with a plan to "pump radioactive fluids through people's bodies(!)."

Returning to the issue of the bill(s) in question however, they are classic "solution searching for a problem" junk. The idea that the doctors are engaged in social engineering while the reactionary fundamentalist pols are defending our innocent children is as farcical as it always is in these instances, just pure gas-lighting/projection. It's the same as when they talk about the "gay agenda."

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Old 4th December 2019, 09:58 PM   #2174
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...hed-a-new-low/

Interesting that the story spent a lot of time debunking the idea that we have to stop parents and quack doctors from chopping kids' balls off.



"gender-affirming health care" and "transitioning" for minors refers to social transitioning until puberty and then hormone therapy at most (which is largely reversible).

Basically the article was pushing back precisely against the ignorant alarmist nonsense seen in the post immediately preceding this one.
Quote:
Dr. Izzy Lowell, an Atlanta-area doctor who primarily treats queer patients, says the transition process for young trans kids is often far less dramatic than opponents suggest. Lowell describes herself as conservative when it comes to prescribing hormones, and says for very young patients she tells their parents to “do nothing other than social transition.” She tells them to “affirm that child’s gender, as much as you can, but let them lead—never impose a gender on them.”
Emphasis added.

ETA: https://www.politifact.com/texas/sta...sex-reassignm/

Originally Posted by politfact
Widely accepted guidelines for transition care emphasize gender-affirming care and therapy as primary tools for children. More intensive options, like surgery or hormone treatment, are typically reserved for older adolescents (with parental consent) and adults.
Why the denial?

ETA2: This is another case where some compromise is possible, but it won't happen because something about our political/media/entertainment (I think most commercial news is really entertainment driven) tends to force people to extremes. I think most people could accept transition procedures on minors if those procedures were actually fully reversible. I think you could even keep full surgical transition legal for 16 and 17 year olds if there were sufficient strings attached. But what's happening is that the surgery really is happening, and people are trying to stop it, and then various voices insist that it doesn't happen when it's quite clear that it does, and people say that conservatives are "reaching a new low" and "going after kids".

Was my characterization accurate when I talked about "cutting your balls off". No. I suppose not. But let's be clear that the inaccuracy was a case of the legislation proposed does exactly what I said, but it also does more. It also prevents less drastic treatments.

Rolfe has talked a lot about the effects of various treatments. There's a lot of irreversible stuff going on.

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Old 4th December 2019, 10:40 PM   #2175
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Again, given the close eye being kept on the process and the incredibly low number of people choosing to halt seems to be a strong point in the favor of good medical science in the overall.
The low number of people isn't relevant, since it's not limited by a screening process which rejects lots of candidates, but simply by the number of people interested in the treatment.

I think I misread this bit initially.

First, the numbers of people who halt are not low. The majority of children who claim to be transgender cease to do so if not given hormone treatment. If most people who receive hormone treatment don't halt, that doesn't mean hormone treatment was the right thing to do. Again, this may not be PC to say, but an outcome where someone doesn't have any medical intervention and ceases to be transgender at all is frankly a better outcome than one where they medically transition. It's better for their physical health, it's better for their financial stability, and I bet it's better for their emotional state too. Which means that if you give medical treatment to someone who would have halted, and as a result they don't halt, you have harmed them.

And how close an eye is being kept on the process? Maybe they're keeping a close eye on the case, but how do we know? I certainly don't. I don't trust that the process is being monitored objectively at all. I'm not sure it's even possible to do so right now, given the influence of activists on the topic.

Quote:
Returning to the issue of the bill(s) in question however, they are classic "solution searching for a problem" junk. The idea that the doctors are engaged in social engineering while the reactionary fundamentalist pols are defending our innocent children is as farcical as it always is in these instances, just pure gas-lighting/projection. It's the same as when they talk about the "gay agenda."
It's not that simple. Sometimes medical and especially psychology professionals DO try to engage in social engineering. Sometimes the conventional wisdom of the profession is wrong (see: dietary guidelines for fat vs sugar). It doesn't suffice to just say trust them, they're the professionals. Look up the case of David Reimer if you want a directly relevant example.
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Old 4th December 2019, 10:50 PM   #2176
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
fragile men
You do yourself no favors with this sort of framing, which is really just an ad hominem. It's especially ridiculous for a poster like Rolfe.
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Old 5th December 2019, 04:36 AM   #2177
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One more point about the article.

I must admit that my characterization of the article was misleading. I'm sorry for that.....sort of.

I was just so disgusted by the article. It was not an "informative piece". It was extraordinarily misleading. It was incredibly slanted. It misrepresented the real world. It conflated what was being done with seven year olds with what was being done with seventeen year olds, and in both cases if said "usually" and "often", but in a way that encouraged the reader to think that the things the law would outlaw are things that never happen anyway.

Yeah, "usually", they don't cut people's balls off at 16. Turning "usually" into "never legally" would not be a "new low".
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Old 5th December 2019, 05:18 AM   #2178
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
No idea, the terms aren't all that consistently used, sadly. I think it's already been pointed out a few times transgender itself is not quite correct to describe the group it applies to, but transexual was felt to have too much baggage.
Well that's a problem. If we can't be sure what means what, then what are we even talking about?

If sex and gender mean different things and we're talking about transgender, then "cis-male" is meaningless.
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Old 5th December 2019, 05:24 AM   #2179
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
A biological/anthropological explanation for human sexuality isn't remotely proven.
...wait, what are you saying here? That sexuality is... what? I have no idea where you're going with this.

Quote:
This is just a slightly more advanced version of stamping your feet and insisting the whole universe agrees with you.
No.

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I wrote a zinger. Stay butt hurt over it aslong as you like, your choice.
You lied. If that's how you want to conduct our discussions, two can play that game.

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Like all people, interpretations you rely on might not be accurate.
Correct. But that doesn't change what I said.

Quote:
Also: hypocrite much?
This is the equivalent of poking someone in the eye until they punch you in the face and then calling them violent. You're fooling no one.
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Old 5th December 2019, 05:29 AM   #2180
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You do yourself no favors with this sort of framing, which is really just an ad hominem. It's especially ridiculous for a poster like Rolfe.
Sexist, too.
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Old 5th December 2019, 03:33 PM   #2181
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My problem with the MJ article is the gap between these lines:

Quote:
Shortly after, Texas Rep. Matt Krause promised to introduce a bill in 2021, the next time the state legislature will be in session, to bar minors from using puberty blockers, a gender-affirming medical treatment that allows transgender kids to temporarily postpone puberty so they have more time to explore their gender identity.

...

“It doesn’t happen very often, almost never,” that a patient asks to stop hormone therapy.
I dislike this benign "pause" selling point. Jazz Jennings was on this track, and by the time she was old enough she had never had an orgasm and her genitalia where too underdeveloped for regular SRS. How is that a recipe for happily exploring one's sex/gender? And if desisters are rare, as is claimed, then it isn't a temporary "pause" at all.

On the other hand, there is research that suggests efficacy for reducing distress and dysphoria. On the other, other hand the papers I read just looked at people who went on to have SRS, with no desisters or direct control.

The article is right that it is definitely being used as a wedge issue, so there is a lot of misinformation.
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Old 5th December 2019, 04:19 PM   #2182
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There's a lot of misinformation and there's also an alarming absence of systematic follow-up.

Being trans is not a barrel of laughs. Even the people who have successfully transitioned and say they're eternally glad they did it acknowledge that. Adults who go into it with their eyes open, fully informed consent and heavy-duty psychological support are one thing though. Children who have been told that yes of course God made a mistake and gave you the wrong-sex body but don't worry when you're a bit older the doctors will fix it all and give you the right body are something else.

Jazz Jennings will never know sexual arousal. (When adult males have sex reassignment surgery a "clitoris" can be constructed from some of the erectile tissue of the penis so they can still orgasm. This is not possible for a boy who never passed through puberty.) He has a "neovagina" which is a surgically-created blind-ending sac which has to be kept patent by being penetrated with a dildo a couple of times every day to prevent it healing up. If he has penetrative sex with a man, who is this for? Is he getting anything out of it?

Children don't understand any of this. A little boy who likes pink sparkly things cannot understand the medical and surgical future that's being mapped out for him. In particular he can't understand about never having an orgasm, never being sexually aroused and never being fertile. But the pro-transition lobby continually push to for these children never to go through puberty, after which they could make a much more informed decision, bank sperm, and have penile tissue preserved into a functioning clitoris. Why not? Because it would be more difficult to make them look female if they went through puberty first. It's all about looks, and almost nothing about function. You do have to wonder for whose benefit this is being done.
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Old 5th December 2019, 04:29 PM   #2183
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The article is right that it is definitely being used as a wedge issue, so there is a lot of misinformation.
Absolutely.

I feel a little bit guilty about contributing a little bit to that in my own way, but, as I say, I was irritated.

The article leads with "a new low", and the subtitle is "they're going after kids", so they start with well-poisoning before ever getting to the substance. Then, in the substance, there are misleading statements and half truths. Look at how it was received here. The article said treatment is "often less dramatic", and that got translated to "at most" social transition. Of course, that's the translation the authors intended.

Sometimes I wonder how many people actually care about transgender issues, and how many just want to bash liberals or bash conservatives.
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Old 5th December 2019, 05:10 PM   #2184
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The thing is, "social transition" is in itself a major psychological intervention. A little boy who likes sparkly pink tutus who is left alone to play with and as he likes, is under no pressure to go one way or the other. Justifications for social transition often include "bullying", by other kids and sometimes adults who see gender nonconforming play and mannerisms as something to be mocked and "corrected". But the solution to a kid being bullied isn't hormones and surgery, it's stopping the bullies. The solution to kids and adults forcing anyone into stereotypical gender norms again isn't hormones and surgery, it's smashing the gender norms so that we can be and do what we want irrespective of which set of reproductive organs we were issued with, and without any pressure to mutilate our bodies.

The brain is plastic, and when a little boy is continually affirmed as being a girl, with a female name and pronouns and female clothes and hair and toys, and grouped with the girls at school and play, his brain does become more feminine even without any other intervention. There is also the effect of parental and teacher reaction. The boy is feted as "stunning and brave" and special. Mother tends to be very proud and very protective of him. The mothers of trans-kids often seem to have a lot of emotion invested in their "little girl". How easy is it really for a child who might be having second thoughts as he approaches puberty to come out and say, I'm not sure about this, maybe I should try being a boy for a bit?

So even before any medical intervention happens, the social transition makes it a lot more likely that the child will persist in the cross-sex identity. Then the puberty blockers start. These things aren't even safe when used to treat precocious puberty and then withdrawn after a couple of years.

Drug used to halt puberty in children may cause lasting health problems

When used on a child who is going into puberty at a normal age and then continued well past the normal age, nobody is doing follow-ups. In particular since virtually 100% of transkids put on puberty blockers then move on to cross-sex hormones so that they never experience puberty, there simply aren't the test subjects to say what happens if the drugs are simply withdrawn. It doesn't happen. Far from being a "pause button" to give children longer to think about it, the drugs seem to be a stop button that stops the brain maturation that in the majority of cases (judging by statistics from earlier times when these drugs weren't used) would lead to the young person becoming reconciled to his or her natural sex. A study in England in relation to this aspect has been severely criticised on methodological and safety grounds, and the overall impression is that puberty blockers are in fact being used to stop puberty until the child is old enough in chronological years to be eligible for cross-sex hormones and surgery.

It's true the child may be very insistent that he wants this. But children can be very stubborn. They also, as I said, have little understanding of the medical and surgical future that awaits them. The permanent medicalisation, the sterility, the lack of sexual arousal, the side-effects, the shortened life-span, the risks of stroke and cancer and heart attacks and bone density problems.

And this is being promoted to parents and their children, very often by transwomen who transitioned as adult males who already have children of their own, and themselved have absolutely no intention of having genital surgery themselves. What on earth is going on here? How is this not child abuse?
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Old 5th December 2019, 07:27 PM   #2185
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Absolutely.

I feel a little bit guilty about contributing a little bit to that in my own way, but, as I say, I was irritated.

The article leads with "a new low", and the subtitle is "they're going after kids", so they start with well-poisoning before ever getting to the substance. Then, in the substance, there are misleading statements and half truths. Look at how it was received here. The article said treatment is "often less dramatic", and that got translated to "at most" social transition. Of course, that's the translation the authors intended.

Sometimes I wonder how many people actually care about transgender issues, and how many just want to bash liberals or bash conservatives.
I'm certainly not going to back MJ as being a paragon of balance, not by any stretch.

I just think between professional medical licensing associations and conservative-dominated state legislatures, I give the former a way higher degree of credibility on issues of medical care.

Concerns raised about adolescent transition should absolutely be part of the discussion. If the entire practice of medicine in that context is illegal, then there's no discussion at all. Even worse, much like with women's reproductive medicine, it could just go underground with terrible results and no development of safer, more effective treatments.

It's the same playbook as with abortion, in fact. Obstruct it, forbid it, complicate it, and starve it if funding. Then feign incredulous lament how bad the whole thing is turning out and conclude it should just be shut down entirely.
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Old 5th December 2019, 07:38 PM   #2186
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The thing is, "social transition" is in itself a major psychological intervention. A little boy who likes sparkly pink tutus who is left alone to play with and as he likes, is under no pressure to go one way or the other. Justifications for social transition often include "bullying", by other kids and sometimes adults who see gender nonconforming play and mannerisms as something to be mocked and "corrected". But the solution to a kid being bullied isn't hormones and surgery, it's stopping the bullies. The solution to kids and adults forcing anyone into stereotypical gender norms again isn't hormones and surgery, it's smashing the gender norms so that we can be and do what we want irrespective of which set of reproductive organs we were issued with, and without any pressure to mutilate our bodies.

The brain is plastic, and when a little boy is continually affirmed as being a girl, with a female name and pronouns and female clothes and hair and toys, and grouped with the girls at school and play, his brain does become more feminine even without any other intervention. There is also the effect of parental and teacher reaction. The boy is feted as "stunning and brave" and special. Mother tends to be very proud and very protective of him. The mothers of trans-kids often seem to have a lot of emotion invested in their "little girl". How easy is it really for a child who might be having second thoughts as he approaches puberty to come out and say, I'm not sure about this, maybe I should try being a boy for a bit?

So even before any medical intervention happens, the social transition makes it a lot more likely that the child will persist in the cross-sex identity. Then the puberty blockers start. These things aren't even safe when used to treat precocious puberty and then withdrawn after a couple of years.

Drug used to halt puberty in children may cause lasting health problems

When used on a child who is going into puberty at a normal age and then continued well past the normal age, nobody is doing follow-ups. In particular since virtually 100% of transkids put on puberty blockers then move on to cross-sex hormones so that they never experience puberty, there simply aren't the test subjects to say what happens if the drugs are simply withdrawn. It doesn't happen. Far from being a "pause button" to give children longer to think about it, the drugs seem to be a stop button that stops the brain maturation that in the majority of cases (judging by statistics from earlier times when these drugs weren't used) would lead to the young person becoming reconciled to his or her natural sex. A study in England in relation to this aspect has been severely criticised on methodological and safety grounds, and the overall impression is that puberty blockers are in fact being used to stop puberty until the child is old enough in chronological years to be eligible for cross-sex hormones and surgery.

It's true the child may be very insistent that he wants this. But children can be very stubborn. They also, as I said, have little understanding of the medical and surgical future that awaits them. The permanent medicalisation, the sterility, the lack of sexual arousal, the side-effects, the shortened life-span, the risks of stroke and cancer and heart attacks and bone density problems.

And this is being promoted to parents and their children, very often by transwomen who transitioned as adult males who already have children of their own, and themselved have absolutely no intention of having genital surgery themselves. What on earth is going on here? How is this not child abuse?
Ending the "binary assumption" is a big hurdle even the trans-activists themselves wrestle with, absolutely. I really don't know how many children who discuss these issues with a therapist are then referred on to a specific social transitioning path, though. So I can't say whether your concerns about children being pushed along because of an essentially incorrect diagnosis are valid or not. A lot of the data presented in this discussion has been just within those children who are on a transition path.

It is almost an absolute certainty that even the most advanced thinking in this field is woefully inadequate.

It is almost an absolute certainty that banning any practice of it will not improve the situation.

ETA: Imagine the early days of cancer treatments. "You want to pump radioactive fluids through a person who's already sick? Are you out of your mind? Look at these atrocious fatality rates! Ban it!"

Where would we be now?

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 5th December 2019 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 5th December 2019, 07:56 PM   #2187
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
From this article:
Quote:
In interviews and in online forums, women who took the drug as young girls or initiated a daughter’s treatment described harsh side effects that have been well-documented in adults.
I'm just wondering if this has actually been studied in a scientifically rigorous way. This appears to mere anecdotes. There are also online forums where people think that vaccines caused autism in their child.

Apparently the FDA is looking into the issue, but hasn't issued any firm conclusions:
Quote:
Such complaints have recently come under scrutiny at the FDA, which regulates drug safety.

“We are currently conducting a specific review of nervous system and psychiatric events in association with the use of GnRH agonists, [a class of drugs] including Lupron, in pediatric patients,” the FDA said in a statement in response to questions from Kaiser Health News and Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting.

The FDA is also reviewing deadly seizures stemming from the pediatric use of Lupron and other drugs in its class. While there are other drugs similar to Lupron, it is a market leader and thousands of women have joined Facebook (FB) groups or internet forums in recent years claiming that Lupron ruined their lives or left them crippled.

But the FDA has yet to issue additional warnings about pediatric use, and unapproved uses of the drugs persist.
The range of reported health problems seems to be all over the place. I guess the best we can really say at this point is that the true long-term risks are still not well understood. These health problems might be due to the drug, but they might be due to something else, as they are probably not unique to people who took Lupron.
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Old 6th December 2019, 03:33 AM   #2188
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I think that's a fair point, but there haven't been nearly as many safety studies on this as there have been on vaccines. There are people who were prescribed it for prostate cancer and some gynaecological conditions who report serious adverse sequelae as well. It's also a much more invasive intervention than a vaccine. We're interfering with a complex hormonal regulatory system and doing it at possibly the time of maximum risk.

I remember when the results of the first large-scale trial of HRT in menopausal women came in. The study was actually stopped early because iof clear evidence of an increased risk of breast cancer, even though that increase was numerically modest. The huge enthusiasm for prescribing it to every menopausal woman dried up and vanished overnight. They say now that one in fifty women who take HRT will develop breast cancer because of the HRT.

Replacing the oestrogen and progesterone that a female body has been used to doesn't seem like a particularly major intervention, but there you go. Actually stopping the body going through puberty and then supplementing with the hormones of the opposite sex is a massively bigger deal, but not only can there be no such huge trial due to the number of patients involved, data are not being gathered from the patients who are taking it and rigorous follow-up is not happening. It's an uncontrolled experiment and I would not care to put money on this being a harmless intervention.
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Old Today, 07:35 AM   #2189
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From the telegraph:

Children's transgender clinic hit by 35 resignations in three years as psychologists warn of gender dysphoria 'over-diagnoses'

A transgender clinic has been hit by 35 resignations in three years, as psychologists warn of “overdiagnoses” of gender dysphoria among children.

The whistleblowers said too many children were being put on puberty-blocking drugs when they should not have been given the diagnosis.

Former staff said they were unable to properly assess patients over fears they will be branded "transphobic".

The concerns were raised by six psychologists who have resigned from London's children's gender-identity service in the past three years.

One psychologist, who wished to remain anonymous, said: "Our fears are that young people are being over-diagnosed and then over-medicalised.

"We are extremely concerned about the consequences for young people... For those of us who previously worked in the service, we fear that we have had front row seats to a medical scandal."

Thirty-five psychologists have resigned from London's Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust since 2016, the investigation by Sky News reveals.

One psychologist said: "The alarm started ringing for me... I didn't feel able to voice my concerns, or when I did I was often shut down by other affirmative clinicians. Looking back there are young people who I now wouldn't necessarily put on medication."

Data shows the number of children treated at the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) has risen more than thirty-fold in a decade - from 77 to 2,590
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/1 ... dontremove
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Old Today, 06:31 PM   #2190
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
From the telegraph:
[snip]
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/1 ... dontremove
Your link is broken. I believe this is the correct one:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-three-years/

I'm not in the least bit surprised by these complaints.
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Old Today, 07:24 PM   #2191
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THe second part of the Swedish documentary "The Trans Train" is now available with English subtitles. I haven't watched it yet but it seems to be focussing on exactly this issue - the rushing of young people into irreversible surgery on the false premise that if this isn't done then they will kill themselves.

https://www.svtplay.se/video/2485394...s-train-part-2
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