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Old 29th November 2019, 11:21 AM   #41
alfaniner
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I have been visiting the VA hospital quite often in the last year or so and am amazed at the number of times I have to say "No handshakes, please." And I always get a slightly offended look from the doctors. I'd think that would be one first-level prevention step that would be standard.
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Old 29th November 2019, 12:51 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
I guess it’s ok then. I’ll tell that to everyone with gigantic chunks of missing flesh, limbs, or “only” had to spend weeks in the hospital. I should be done telling them by the time I’m 90. But it’s not rampant so it’s ok. As for not increasing? The ineptness and criminality of the states public facing and medical boards legendary status has probably reached the point of running jokes that I bet Ginger could tell you about, in spite of the incredible work the actual doctors and nurses in the trenches do here. I’m sure it’s not increasing the same way we haven’t had shark attacks since 1959. The badass blonde haired surfer girl bit her own arm off or something

You could have made it much easier on yourself if you had simply admitted that your wording was exaggerated, but instead you have to defend yourself with a strawman:
1) Did I say or even imply that it was OK?!
2) Did I say that you have to tell people who actually suffer from flesh-eating bacteria that they aren't ill?
3) Again, did I say that it is OK if it's not rampant?!
4) And now there appears to be a conspiracy of medical professionals (?) or politicians (?) trying to suppress the truth about the allegedly rampant epidemic of flesh-eating bacteria? And I appear to have joined forces with them?

Well, pardon me, but I googled your story about the allegedly rampant epidemic and couldn't find any evidence that it was true. If I've been lied to by the media that I quoted, I look forward to your links to stories that prove that you are right.
Otherwise, I'll just consider your strawman to be an act of desperation.

But please make up your mind if you want to post this in Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology instead of in CT. You should probably have considered this before you came up with this: "Yes, most tourists and military don't get it, safe in their compounds. The populace outside that however, happens way way way too much for anyone's comfort"

I would also like to see a link to this story unless all articles about it has been suppressed by the military-touristic complex.
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Old 29th November 2019, 05:28 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
In a serious pinch, you can use urine. It's not completely sterile, but it's hostile to most bacteria.

As a very untrained layman, I'd suggest using your own pee. I surmise that your ine will be more congenial than my ine or anybody else's. Of course, once out of the pinch, wash with clean water and soap.
Good idea, yes urine is usually sterile*, though actually directing it on the wound is a bit impractical unless you are male even then I guess guys can only pee on their lower legs? Or hands?

ETA

Oh! Of course you could pee into a cup and use that. I hadn't thought of that.

*Having actually worked in a laboratory culturing urine I do know for a fact that even in people suspected of having a UTI most urine samples were sterile.
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Old 29th November 2019, 06:28 PM   #44
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If I need that treatment, I want Nicole Kidman.
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Old 29th November 2019, 09:11 PM   #45
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I worked in an auto body shop where the old guy there washed out cuts with thinner and taped it up with masking tape, then back to work.

He died of cirrhosis of the liver before years of breathing solvents could get him.

I will clean wounds in water and wrap in a bit of tied rag, then back to work. Been doing it for decades and rarely even the smallest infection. My tee shirt usually suffers more than me for this.


My hands and forearms are covered in tiny scars for my work yet only one memorable infection, a pretty good run so far.
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Old 29th November 2019, 09:27 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
I guess it’s ok then. I’ll tell that to everyone with gigantic chunks of missing flesh, limbs, or “only” had to spend weeks in the hospital. I should be done telling them by the time I’m 90. But it’s not rampant so it’s ok. As for not increasing? The ineptness and criminality of the states public facing and medical boards legendary status has probably reached the point of running jokes that I bet Ginger could tell you about, in spite of the incredible work the actual doctors and nurses in the trenches do here. I’m sure it’s not increasing the same way we haven’t had shark attacks since 1959. The badass blonde haired surfer girl bit her own arm off or something
MRSA is not typically a flesh eating bacteria. Staph bacteria can be rapidly invasive. These are different organisms with different pathogenic properties.

You guys (plural) are mixing **** up.
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Old 29th November 2019, 10:24 PM   #47
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Homework for anyone interested, look up these terms:

CA MRSA
HA MRSA
Influenza MRSA synergism causing necrotizing pneumonia
Panton-Valentine Leukocidin (PVL)
USA300 strain

Rapidly invasive strep infections (‘the flesh-eating disease’)
Group A Strep is the most common cause of necrotizing fasciitis

I'm going to bed.
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Old 29th November 2019, 10:28 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Where did you get this stuff from? Hospitals are full of nasty pathogens lurking on shiny metal bed rails and many many other metal surfaces.
I had to do some computer work in an endo recovery room once. I put my laptop down on what looked to be a clean surface. The nurse laughed and said "I hope you can bleach the bottom of a computer without breaking it because you do not want to spread what was just on that."
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Old 29th November 2019, 11:53 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
In a serious pinch, you can use urine. It's not completely sterile, but it's hostile to most bacteria.

As a very untrained layman, I'd suggest using your own pee. I surmise that your ine will be more congenial than my ine or anybody else's. Of course, once out of the pinch, wash with clean water and soap.
Since its tradition here, we probably would. But in this population density, you'd be getting at the very least a #metoo, but almost positively you'd be on a sex offender registry and the lynch mob would quickly destroy you (physically)
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Old 29th November 2019, 11:57 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
MRSA is not typically a flesh eating bacteria. Staph bacteria can be rapidly invasive. These are different organisms with different pathogenic properties.

You guys (plural) are mixing **** up.
I know I am for sure. I have no idea what this stuff is. MRSA is insane here. We do know that. And it often sits people in the hospital for weeks from what seemed to be minor wounds. But the one that terrifies me is the one that keeps happening to friends, where they require massive skin grafts and still lose chunks of skin and muscle. THAT is the one that really keeps me on the edge of my seat. I have given up going in water of any sort so i don't expect to get whatever it is that keeps swelling people up, its the one where you lose so much flesh that terrifies me.
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Old 1st December 2019, 12:23 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
He died of cirrhosis of the liver before years of breathing solvents could get him.

That could be the way it got him: Toxic hepatitis in occupational exposure to solvents (World Journal of Gastroenterology)
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Old 1st December 2019, 12:30 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
If I need that treatment, I want Nicole Kidman.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12904854
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st December 2019, 10:36 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That could be the way it got him: Toxic hepatitis in occupational exposure to solvents (World Journal of Gastroenterology)
It had something to do with his heavy drinking on a daily basis mostly. Nice guy but he practically lived on beer.
I am sure that affected all other aspects of his health.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 11:08 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
I get injured constantly, The only time i treat a wound is to keep blood from staining the object i am working on, black 'electrical tape' works good. that is all
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Lick it?

That's what I do, except no tape. So basically nothing.

I cut the top of my index finger deep a few years ago. Took half of a clothes pin and made a kinda splint and wrapped it with a bit of napkin and a thin bit of duct tape. Saved me a 6 hour ER visit and it healed nicely. Better than the stitched thumb 35 years ago that I can still see. Doctors shmoctors!

My wife used to get upset a bit when she'd ask how I got a cut and I answered that I didn't know. It's what guys do, babe!

I'm curious - why was it worse to have a cut below the waist?
Good to see other guys deal with cuts like me. I too will often find myself bleeding from a cut or scrape and have no idea why. Apply a little pressure to stop the bleeding, cover it if necessary to protect whatever I may bleed on, and carry on. Occasionally an infection will set in the next day so a couple of days of antibiotic cream and I'm good to go.

May come back to haunt me one day but I have stayed alive for 66 years, so.....
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Old 2nd December 2019, 12:46 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12904854
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Seems to have cut off just before the good part!
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Old 2nd December 2019, 10:07 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You need somebody else to lick it?!

How is that worse?
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Old 2nd December 2019, 10:18 PM   #57
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I mentioned licking because I read a study once about people licking their wounds vs not and tracking the results. Something about dogs saliva, licking their wounds and let's see what happens if people do it.

As I recall, the licked wounds (mild razor cuts I believe) healed quicker or better (I don't remember the control). That's about all I remember. Probably wasn't much of a study

Would licking be dangerous, I mean is the mouth too dirty for that in general?

This is important because I met this girl and, well just wondering
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Old 2nd December 2019, 10:26 PM   #58
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There's a reason they put those cones on dogs.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 10:34 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
There's a reason they put those cones on dogs.

So they don't rip out the stitches or tear the cast off their leg. I don't think it's to keep them from licking the wound. ETA: could be though as well. More info anyone?
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Old 2nd December 2019, 10:53 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
So they don't rip out the stitches or tear the cast off their leg. I don't think it's to keep them from licking the wound. ETA: could be though as well. More info anyone?
Maybe you should have looked it up before posting.

Excessive licking prohibits wound healing. In the wild, a little licking (dogs aren't the only animals that lick wounds) can clean a wound. If you let a dog or a cat lick your wounds you might end up with a nasty infection.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 11:32 PM   #61
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There is another solution: carry a small flask of whiskey wherever you go. Terrific antibiotic and I understand it has other beneficial effects.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:43 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
There is another solution: carry a small flask of whiskey wherever you go. Terrific antibiotic and I understand it has other beneficial effects.
More vocabulary for this week's lesson:

Antiseptic, yes, antibiotic, no.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:21 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
More vocabulary for this week's lesson:

Antiseptic, yes, antibiotic, no.
Using the strict definition of an antibiotic as an antimicrobial substance that is synthesised by a living organism then whisky could be called a topical antibiotic. The other group is chemotherapy agents these are laboratory synthesised agents - sulphonamides are strictly speaking antibacterial chemotherapy agents. Equally there are anti-cancer antibiotics such as taxols extracted from yew, or vincristine from the periwinkle, whilst cyclophosphamide is an anticancer chemotherapy agent.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:45 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
There is another solution: carry a small flask of whiskey wherever you go. Terrific antibiotic and I understand it has other beneficial effects.
Disinfects your wound from the inside.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 08:03 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
I know I am for sure. I have no idea what this stuff is. MRSA is insane here. We do know that. And it often sits people in the hospital for weeks from what seemed to be minor wounds. But the one that terrifies me is the one that keeps happening to friends, where they require massive skin grafts and still lose chunks of skin and muscle. THAT is the one that really keeps me on the edge of my seat. I have given up going in water of any sort so i don't expect to get whatever it is that keeps swelling people up, its the one where you lose so much flesh that terrifies me.
Staphylococcal aureus (SA), is a bacteria that occurs on skin and can infect wounds. It can cause a spreading infection of the skin cellulitis. It is the germ that tends to cause boils. The problem is that if it gets into the blood it can spread to other parts of the body where it causes abscesses or local infections including the heart, bones, brain etc. MRSA (methicillin resistant SA) is just SA that is resistant to the most commonly used penicillin type antibiotic. So the first line antibiotic fails, if you are penicillin allergic you would not get this antibiotic anyway. So second line antibiotics have to be used these may have higher risk of side effects or need to be given iv. The problem is worsened in that the resistant strains tend to accumulate resistance so an MRSA may be resistant to multiple antibiotics. A bad strain would be VRSA commonly referred to as very resistant SA but actually meaning vancomycin resistant, vancomycin being the usual go to antibiotic for MRSA and VRSA always being multiply resistant.

SA is a nasty infection if it gets into the body, whether MRSA or not, but it does not cause 'killer flesh eating bug' disease - necrotising fasciitis. What you are describing may be either the indolent tropical ulcer type that slowly progresses over weeks or the more rapid type that progresses over hours usually in relation to a penetrating injury. The latter may be due to a mix of germs. However a key component is exotoxins. Some germs including SA produce toxins that can have distant effects. SA may produce a skin toxin this is the cause of toxic shock syndrome it essentially causes your skin to fall off. SA may also produce a toxin that kills your white cells the PVL SA mentioned above. The germs that cause necrotising fasciitis produce toxins that digest the connective tissue in the body and may damage blood vessels. This makes it easy for the germs to spread locally, (rather than via the blood as SA tends to do), it also means that locally to the injury your skin / muscle etc. dies. Antibiotics may kill the germs producing the toxin, but the toxin already present persists. It is thought some antibiotics may actually increase toxin production, whilst other less effective antibiotics can switch off toxin production. Consequently antibiotic combinations are often given. These germs are more associated with dirt, particularly if there is contamination by faeces, so the importance of cleaning wounds. Some of these germs are probably found in the mouth so saliva is problematic. Some of these germs are poisoned by oxygen, so grazes etc, are low risk whilst deep cuts / stabs are higher risk. Equally licking a graze is probably low risk. Necrotissing fasciitis can spread from the mouth or bowel if there is some local injury such as appendicitis, or tooth infection. Since antibiotics penetrate poorly into dead flesh and the germs like growing in dead partially digested muscle a key part of treatment is to remove dead flesh - you cut until it bleeds.

Special cases of toxin producing wound infections include botulism and tetanus. This is why the tetanus vaccination is against the toxin not against the bacteria.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:34 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Using the strict definition of an antibiotic as an antimicrobial substance that is synthesised by a living organism then whisky could be called a topical antibiotic. The other group is chemotherapy agents these are laboratory synthesised agents - sulphonamides are strictly speaking antibacterial chemotherapy agents. Equally there are anti-cancer antibiotics such as taxols extracted from yew, or vincristine from the periwinkle, whilst cyclophosphamide is an anticancer chemotherapy agent.
Sorry, that's a Dunning-Kruger answer. It really is.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:41 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Staphylococcal aureus (SA),...
SA is a nasty infection if it gets into the body, whether MRSA or not, but it does not cause 'killer flesh eating bug' disease - necrotising fasciitis. ...
This is fun.

Community-acquired necrotizing pneumonia due to methicillin-sensitive Staphylococcus aureus secreting Panton-Valentine leukocidin: a review of case reports

Necrotizing fasciitis caused by Staphylococcus aureus: the emergence of methicillin-resistant strains.

Necrotizing pathogens come in a couple flavors.

However, it is important to distinguish between rapidly invasive infections and antibiotic resistance.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:33 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
There is another solution: carry a small flask of whiskey wherever you go. Terrific antibiotic and I understand it has other beneficial effects.
I always have a flask. Literally. It's my belt buckle.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:44 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Staphylococcal aureus (SA), is a bacteria that occurs on skin and can infect wounds. It can cause a spreading infection of the skin cellulitis.

I've had cellulitis. No idea how it got introduced as there was no cut or scratch but really nasty, before I knew it my lower leg was like putty with red trails leading up towards my joy happy place, my doctor gave me the strongest antibiotics he could at home and warned me I might have to go into hospital for a drip to go higher, comparing notes with a colleague I was on a higger dosage than his father who'd just had open heart surgery! Apparently if I'd left it any longer there could have been risk to my leg. It recurred a couple of times and I've never known anything hit me so hard, fine until lunch then a stiff back,by three I was making an emergency appointment with my GP, rode my motorbike back to the surgery for the appointment, then home, put the bike back into the garage and made it through the back door but not so far as the sofa, I was on the floor. Five hours top.

ETA: But the worst part was watching the doctor look up necrotizing fasciitis in his big text book. I knew just enough for that to scare me!
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:44 PM   #70
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Wouldn't applying iodine stop the bacteria?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:54 PM   #71
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Wouldn't applying iodine stop the bacteria?

Yeah, I suggested that back in post 12
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Old 4th December 2019, 01:30 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Yeah, I suggested that back in post 12
Clinical trials show no benefit comparing iodine with just cleaning the wound with saline. However on the assumption one is somewhere that sterile saline is not available the the trials also show iodine is very effective at reducing bacterial contamination of wounds and healing is no worse than just using saline so it is a reasonable thing to do after cleaning the wound with (tap) water. The key thing is cleaning any dirt / contaminating material out of the wound.
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Old 4th December 2019, 01:34 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I've had cellulitis. No idea how it got introduced as there was no cut or scratch but really nasty, before I knew it my lower leg was like putty with red trails leading up towards my joy happy place, my doctor gave me the strongest antibiotics he could at home and warned me I might have to go into hospital for a drip to go higher, comparing notes with a colleague I was on a higger dosage than his father who'd just had open heart surgery! Apparently if I'd left it any longer there could have been risk to my leg. It recurred a couple of times and I've never known anything hit me so hard, fine until lunch then a stiff back,by three I was making an emergency appointment with my GP, rode my motorbike back to the surgery for the appointment, then home, put the bike back into the garage and made it through the back door but not so far as the sofa, I was on the floor. Five hours top.

ETA: But the worst part was watching the doctor look up necrotizing fasciitis in his big text book. I knew just enough for that to scare me!
The skin breaks may be very small, cracks in the skin of the heal or webspace of toes are thought to be sites when there is not an obvious cut on the legs. Just a small prick from splinter or just scratching the skin vigorously might be enough.
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Old 4th December 2019, 01:41 PM   #74
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NIH: Benefit and harm of iodine in wound care: a systematic review.
Quote:
Based on the available evidence from clinical trials, iodine is an effective antiseptic agent that shows neither the purported harmful effects nor a delay of the wound-healing process, particularly in chronic and burn wounds. The antiseptic effect of iodine is not inferior to that of other (antiseptic) agents and does not impair wound healing. Hence, iodine deserves to retain its place among the modern antiseptic agents.
What you don't want is to damage tissues further. It's not better to wash the wound with iodine.
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Old 4th December 2019, 02:22 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
NIH: Benefit and harm of iodine in wound care: a systematic review.

What you don't want is to damage tissues further. It's not better to wash the wound with iodine.
Although the paper you quote says
Quote:
Based on the available evidence from clinical trials, iodine is an effective antiseptic agent that shows neither the purported harmful effects nor a delay of the wound-healing process, particularly in chronic and burn wounds. The antiseptic effect of iodine is not inferior to that of other (antiseptic) agents and does not impair wound healing. Hence, iodine deserves to retain its place among the modern antiseptic agents.
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Old 4th December 2019, 02:48 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Although the paper you quote says
And?

You don't usually pour iodine onto an open wound. They are talking about using it as an antiseptic, not using it as a wound scrub. Generally that means after the wound is cleaned, iodine (betadine) can be used. This goes back to your misunderstanding what an antiseptic is used for and how it is used.


But getting away from this side debate, I always take tincture of iodine in my wilderness medicine kit. It's an excellent water purifier, better than chlorine because the iodine kills giardia.
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Old 4th December 2019, 03:03 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And?
So no evidence that iodine will damage tissues further. No harm from using iodine. But since the trials were in hospital we cannot conclude that there would be no benefit from use of iodine in a non-hospital situation, and studies do show it is effective at bacterial decontamination.

Remember the topic of the thread is not what is ideal, in hospital, but what is reasonable in 'the field'. So no evidence that iodine will do any harm, if people want to put iodine on the wounds that is OK. If it subsequently gets infected then at least they did their best to decontaminate the wound. Most people would rather take the theoretical risk of a slightly worse scar or longer healing as opposed to an infected wound. (However if you are in the jungle with Nicol Kidman and she injures her face perhaps we'll go for P rather than I!)
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Old 4th December 2019, 03:17 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And?

You don't usually pour iodine onto an open wound. They are talking about using it as an antiseptic, not using it as a wound scrub. Generally that means after the wound is cleaned, iodine (betadine) can be used. This goes back to your misunderstanding what an antiseptic is used for and how it is used.


But getting away from this side debate, I always take tincture of iodine in my wilderness medicine kit. It's an excellent water purifier, better than chlorine because the iodine kills giardia.

No I know exactly how antiseptics are used. I also understand the lay use of chemotherapy to refer to anti-cancer drugs, antibiotics to refer to anti-microbial agents and antiseptics to refer to topical anti-microbial chemotherapy agents such as iodine or peroxide (as opposed to topical antibiotics which sensu stricto alcohol is). In this case if in the woods I cut myself I would wash it with water from my non sterile water bottle then happily pour tincture of iodine into the wound if I had some, then put on a dressing of some sort to stop secondary contamination. May be even pouring a little iodine on the scarf or hanky if I did not have a sterile dressing. What you need to do is minimise the risk of any infection getting trapped in the wound.

ETA what I am more likely to have is H2O2 which is used as a sterilising agent for hard contact lenses, and comes in little squeeze bottles. So I would squirt that in to the wound, it then effervesces which is very effective at lifting debris out of wounds. It is does more theoretical damage than iodine to wound healing. My mother a rural GP always rinsed our scabbed knees with peroxide as children, I don't think our scabs lasted any longer than other children. I accept that iodine compounds are now the go to for skin antisepsis and peroxide is long out of fashion in hospitals.

Last edited by Planigale; 4th December 2019 at 03:24 PM.
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