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Tags anti vaccination , measles , Samoa incidents

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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:53 PM   #1
PhantomWolf
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Anti-Vaxer's ideal Paradise.

So Samoa has been badly hit by a measles epidemic, to the point that the Government has shutdown the country to try and prevent the further spread of the disease. It is being driven because many families are to poor to take their kids to get them vaccinated. This is the paradise that Anti-vaxers want for the rest of us.

So far the death toll is 60, 54 of them being kids under 15!

It is depressing that we still can't make sure that all kids are vaccinated against this disease, and that people in western countries would be risking their kids, and other people's kids to this fate by choice is angering.
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Old 4th December 2019, 10:44 AM   #2
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Just for clarity, the is the independent state of Samoa; not adjacent American Samoa.
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Old 4th December 2019, 12:03 PM   #3
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I'm sure the measles virus will be respectful of the border.
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Old 4th December 2019, 12:36 PM   #4
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It is still something that makes me angry every time I hear about something like this. Preventable. My precious, 13 yr old who is at special risk by no fault of her own. She is fully vaccinated. However, she has a brain disease she was born with, that cause seizures and other difficult issues.

Unfortunately, we live in a city voted "most liberal in the US", and a haven for anti-vaxxers. The parents are cautious, and her "special school" requires all vaccinations. We can't put her in a bubble, unfortunately.
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Old 4th December 2019, 12:44 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
It is still something that makes me angry every time I hear about something like this. Preventable. My precious, 13 yr old who is at special risk by no fault of her own. She is fully vaccinated. However, she has a brain disease she was born with, that cause seizures and other difficult issues.

Unfortunately, we live in a city voted "most liberal in the US", and a haven for anti-vaxxers. The parents are cautious, and her "special school" requires all vaccinations. We can't put her in a bubble, unfortunately.
It’s the anti-vaxxers who need to be put in a bubble. An air-tight bubble.
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Old 4th December 2019, 03:07 PM   #6
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Anti Vaxers cross over political and religious lines.
You see them both on the Fundy Christian Right and the New Age Kook Left.
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Old 4th December 2019, 03:15 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Anti Vaxers cross over political and religious lines.
You see them both on the Fundy Christian Right and the New Age Kook Left.
In America, many of them are in insular religious or cultural bubbles. Hasidic Jews and emigrants from Russia and Ukraine make up a big proportion of anti-vaccine people. Close proximity means that those groups suffer most from the loss of herd immunity.

Once you get out of those groups, the numbers start to look less worrisome. Still a concern, but less mainstream than often portrayed.
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:17 PM   #8
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Settling aside the vaccination issue for a moment, why is the death toll in this outbreak so high? That's incredibly high and not normal for a population of 200k, regardless of vaccination status.

Last edited by Doghouse Reilly; 4th December 2019 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:26 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Settling aside the vaccination issue for a moment, why is the death toll in this outbreak so high? That's incredibly high and not normal for a population of 200k, regardless of vaccination status.
They are pretty all babies or other kids under 15
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:32 PM   #10
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Thing that has to be remembered is early last year there were two babies that died after being vaccinated in Samoa early last year.

The vaccination program was put on hold for months on end while they figured out what was going on

Turn out a nurse had mixed the vaccine with out of date anaesthetic instead of water (utter negligence basically).

But it left a severe distrust of the reliability of the people doing it, so a lot isn't anti-vax per se. More fear.
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:34 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
I'm sure the measles virus will be respectful of the border.
Only if we build a wall.
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:36 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Settling aside the vaccination issue for a moment, why is the death toll in this outbreak so high? That's incredibly high and not normal for a population of 200k, regardless of vaccination status.
I think (not sure where I got this information), that polynesians have a much higher death rate from measles than people of European ancestry.
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:40 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
I'm sure the measles virus will be respectful of the border.
It's not the virus, it's the vaccinations. I expect American Samoa has a higher vaccination rate. I don't know how much travel there is between the two, either. We are talking separate islands, not a land border.

Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Settling aside the vaccination issue for a moment, why is the death toll in this outbreak so high? That's incredibly high and not normal for a population of 200k, regardless of vaccination status.
It's a very small country, and not a wealthy one. Per Capita income is $4420. Per Capita in American Samoa is $11,200. American Samoa can also get support from the USA, Samoa is on its own.
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Old 4th December 2019, 05:08 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It's not the virus, it's the vaccinations. I expect American Samoa has a higher vaccination rate. I don't know how much travel there is between the two, either. We are talking separate islands, not a land border.


It's a very small country, and not a wealthy one. Per Capita income is $4420. Per Capita in American Samoa is $11,200. American Samoa can also get support from the USA, Samoa is on its own.
Um no
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Old 4th December 2019, 05:48 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Um no
Um, yes. It’s an independent nation. Like pretty much every pacific island nation, it gets aid, but it makes its own decisions.
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Old 4th December 2019, 06:02 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Um, yes. It’s an independent nation. Like pretty much every pacific island nation, it gets aid, but it makes its own decisions.
An independent that has a special treaty with us which means support defensively, politically, educationally, medically and financially and our Navy monitors and patrols their maritime territory

Same as Aus, but they don't have the treaty I think

And both us and AUS give them aid money.

We both have teams of medical staff over their helping vaccinate and our Defence Force is ferrying over vaccinations and medical equipment.
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Last edited by cullennz; 4th December 2019 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 5th December 2019, 02:37 AM   #17
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and now an anti-vaxxer has got himself arrested.
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Old 5th December 2019, 02:43 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
and now an anti-vaxxer has got himself arrested.
Good job

Lock him up till he his harm can be fixed
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Old 5th December 2019, 05:51 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Thing that has to be remembered is early last year there were two babies that died after being vaccinated in Samoa early last year.

The vaccination program was put on hold for months on end while they figured out what was going on

Turn out a nurse had mixed the vaccine with out of date anaesthetic instead of water (utter negligence basically).

But it left a severe distrust of the reliability of the people doing it, so a lot isn't anti-vax per se. More fear.
But then they had the likes of Kennedy over there promoting ant-vax crap.
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Old 5th December 2019, 05:54 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Settling aside the vaccination issue for a moment, why is the death toll in this outbreak so high? That's incredibly high and not normal for a population of 200k, regardless of vaccination status.
Because measles is a dangerous disease, especially in the very young. And there are often other issues triggered by the disease, all of which require up to date acute medical facilities to treat or support, it's a poor island they simply don't have the medical resources available.
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Old Yesterday, 09:29 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Because measles is a dangerous disease, especially in the very young. And there are often other issues triggered by the disease, all of which require up to date acute medical facilities to treat or support, it's a poor island they simply don't have the medical resources available.

On top of that, the measles virus causes what is known as "immune amnesia", resulting in susceptibility to other dangerous diseases that the victims may have been vaccinated against.

Measles vaccines protect against more than just measles. Here's how. Without vaccination, the highly contagious virus can allow other diseases to flourish in unsuspecting populations for more than two years after an infection.
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Old Yesterday, 09:52 PM   #22
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Worth mention, this is a double whammy, that's one reason the death rate is so high. Like American Indians when Europeans arrived on the continent with diseases, Pacific Islanders are equally naive populations to measles. They have not been naturally selected by generations of exposure. It wasn't just small pox that devastated the Americas, measles also wiped out whole populations.
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Old Yesterday, 10:19 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But then they had the likes of Kennedy over there promoting ant-vax crap.
Agree, but it was kind of a double whammy
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Old Yesterday, 10:24 PM   #24
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As ugly a fact as it is, it is probably worth pointing out we wiped out 22% of Samoa's population by rocking on over there after WW1 to take the place over (NZ) with a pneumonic influenza epidemic.

Not our nations most stunning moment of sunshine.

Mind you it looks like it was us that sent them measles this year as well.
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Old Yesterday, 11:35 PM   #25
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The sailors returning to Europe from the Americas equally brought back gifts of diseases. Port cities were routinely ravaged by them a month after a ship arrived.

Human understanding of the causes was so limited then, thus nobody had a clue what hit them. By the time of the first world war travel had exposed most in cities to most common stuff.
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Old Yesterday, 11:52 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
As ugly a fact as it is, it is probably worth pointing out we wiped out 22% of Samoa's population by rocking on over there after WW1 to take the place over (NZ) with a pneumonic influenza epidemic.

Not our nations most stunning moment of sunshine.

Mind you it looks like it was us that sent them measles this year as well.
pneumonic influenza?? What is that?

If you are talking about the Spanish Influenza pandemic of 1917-1918, it spread around the world. I'm not sure you can blame that on anyone in particular.

I didn't send measles to anyone. Perhaps you should blame the anti-vaxxer bad science promoters.
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Old Yesterday, 11:55 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
The sailors returning to Europe from the Americas equally brought back gifts of diseases. Port cities were routinely ravaged by them a month after a ship arrived.

Human understanding of the causes was so limited then, thus nobody had a clue what hit them. By the time of the first world war travel had exposed most in cities to most common stuff.
Other than syphilis, I'm curious which pathogens you were thinking about.
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Old Today, 12:12 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
pneumonic influenza?? What is that?

If you are talking about the Spanish Influenza pandemic of 1917-1918, it spread around the world. I'm not sure you can blame that on anyone in particular.

I didn't send measles to anyone. Perhaps you should blame the anti-vaxxer bad science promoters.
Fair point

One of the few occasions I actually get people feeling a bit retro-guilty about it, even though I wasn't born

One of those things and that.
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Old Today, 06:27 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But then they had the likes of Kennedy over there promoting ant-vax crap.
Is there an ant vaccine? I could use that next spring.
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Old Today, 06:30 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
and now an anti-vaxxer has got himself arrested.
Jackass. I hope he catches it.
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Old Today, 06:40 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Settling aside the vaccination issue for a moment, why is the death toll in this outbreak so high? That's incredibly high and not normal for a population of 200k, regardless of vaccination status.
Yes it is. Mortality from measles is around 2 in 1,000 (with excellent supporting care) but aggravating factors (e.g. malnutrition) can bring this to as high as 100 in 1,000. The mortality rate in Samoa is around 14 in 1,000 well inside these ranges and almost exactly the same as the global toll; 140,000 deaths from approximately ten million infections in 2018.
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Old Today, 06:43 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Just for clarity, the is the independent state of Samoa; not adjacent American Samoa.
Which is now experiencing its own measles cases. And has a childhood vaccination rate of >85%. Schools have been closed and gatherings in parks banned.
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Old Today, 06:52 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Only if we build a wall.
And used anti-vaxxers as foundation material?
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Old Today, 07:38 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Is there an ant vaccine? I could use that next spring.
Petrol.
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Old Today, 08:46 AM   #35
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th wrong cure

Link.. "Edwin Tamasese was charged with incitement against a government order after he was detained on Thursday." I am strongly pro-vaxx (as my comments on another thread demonstrate), but I do not support imprisoning people, even kooks like Mr. Tamasese.
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happened.” – Winston Churchill

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