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Old 6th December 2014, 11:56 AM   #1041
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Who said that? I don't think BWW has ever been the biggest organization in Amway?

Thoug we never clarified where you are did we? BWW is biggest in India, where it's causing all sorts of problems.



And I acknowledge other people (like Sam and Joecool) have different experiences to mine. What irritates me is people think their experience is the "one true Amway experience" and others don't exist. So nice to see someone with flexibility
The evidence and testimonies that one can find indicates that the tools selling groups are more alike than not.

They are for profit companies that sell support materials to IBOs. These companies make good money even if every single IBO who uses the tools loses their shirts. There is no evidence that these support systems actually help IBOs succeed (aside from statistical outliers).

Basically, the diamonds are salesmen for the support systems and they use their amway achievement as credibility because amway is the venue for recruiting prospects. Thus they show off lifestyles and fancy sports cars and things to show the illusion of wealth to get people enticed into joining.

While icerat might claim his group is different, they are not. They are a for profit tools company that makes a profit regardless of how their IBOs fare in Amway. I doubt that network 21 IBOs do any bettter than the rest of the IBO population as a whole, regardless of icerat's individual testimony. The Amway income disclosures back up my story more than it does icerat's.

I believe .26% or about 1 in 400 reach the platinum level, which is where you allegedly begin to make a net profit (if you are consuming tools).
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Old 7th December 2014, 02:24 AM   #1042
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Originally Posted by Sam0005 View Post
Being part of BWW leadership, and having WWDB conference in my city, I can assure you this information you have is wrong
They're definitely generating fewer complaints. WWDB too. What do you put this down to?

Originally Posted by Sam0005 View Post
Oh yeah, I am well aware BWW is not even close to be the biggest or most profitable in Amway. Yet, Amway reps come to BWW conferences to claim that, and 90% of the people do buy that
Hmmm, might be possible BWW has the largest number of affiliated currently qualified platinums in North America. A lot of growth in Indian and Hispanic groups.
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Old 7th December 2014, 05:33 PM   #1043
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
They're definitely generating fewer complaints. WWDB too. What do you put this down to?
.
Total BS. How would you know the number of complaints that are generated by WWDB abd BWW?
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Old 8th December 2014, 08:30 AM   #1044
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Total BS. How would you know the number of complaints that are generated by WWDB abd BWW?
I was curious about the same. What is the process of knowing fewer complaints? Platinum+ in our group receive such information (such as new policies from Amway etc.), but I dont recall any diamond mentioning that..
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Old 8th December 2014, 09:02 AM   #1045
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Originally Posted by Sam0005 View Post
I was curious about the same. What is the process of knowing fewer complaints? Platinum+ in our group receive such information (such as new policies from Amway etc.), but I dont recall any diamond mentioning that..
I mean in terms of "internet complaints". I monitor internet chatter about Amway and a few other MLMs and there's A LOT less "negative" about Amway in recent years.
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Old 8th December 2014, 10:13 AM   #1046
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I mean in terms of "internet complaints". I monitor internet chatter about Amway and a few other MLMs and there's A LOT less "negative" about Amway in recent years.
One could also make the same counter argument that there are a lot less positive about Amway as well.

The lack of negative comments on the internet (I believe) is because information is readily available to people come here, read the comments on a thread like this and don't join in the first place. Back when I had joined, the internet was fairly new and didn't have the wealth of information that it has now.
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Old 8th December 2014, 10:20 AM   #1047
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I mean in terms of "internet complaints". I monitor internet chatter about Amway and a few other MLMs and there's A LOT less "negative" about Amway in recent years.
Not sure about other groups, but in my Diamond and Double Diamond's organization, it is almost repeated in every other training session to not to indulge to any online discussion about Amway. Why? Because that will waste your time, and it would be better to invest your time in "contacting".. Heck, I am ashamed to have covered this topic myself once.
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Old 9th December 2014, 02:55 AM   #1048
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Originally Posted by Sam0005 View Post
Not sure about other groups, but in my Diamond and Double Diamond's organization, it is almost repeated in every other training session to not to indulge to any online discussion about Amway. Why? Because that will waste your time, and it would be better to invest your time in "contacting".. Heck, I am ashamed to have covered this topic myself once.
It's a difficult issue. For any individual, they are most likely correct. But for the group as a whole they would be better off engaging in sensible debate rather than leaving all the talking to the "critics".

Amway tends to be on the "don't talk" side of the ledger because they know there's a risk of IBOs saying things that may put them at legal risk (eg health claims, income claims etc) - an extremely difficult area to police on the internet as the laws (as well as Amway's rules) are often different in different markets.
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Old 9th December 2014, 06:43 AM   #1049
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Amway tends to be on the "don't talk" side of the ledger because they know there's a risk of IBOs saying things that may put them at legal risk (eg health claims, income claims etc) - an extremely difficult area to police on the internet as the laws (as well as Amway's rules) are often different in different markets.
Doesn't it hint that there's a problem when this is an actual issue for your business?

I don't see any franchises or similar businesses muzzling their local reps for fear of claims that could land them in hot water.
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Old 9th December 2014, 07:58 AM   #1050
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
Doesn't it hint that there's a problem when this is an actual issue for your business?

I don't see any franchises or similar businesses muzzling their local reps for fear of claims that could land them in hot water.
I gotta believe Mac Donald's and the like are pretty touchy about their corporate brand though.
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Old 9th December 2014, 08:48 AM   #1051
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
Doesn't it hint that there's a problem when this is an actual issue for your business?
The "independent agent" model has it's strengths and weaknesses. The fact that others behaviour affects your own businesses reputation is unquestionably a weakness, yes.

Quote:
I don't see any franchises or similar businesses muzzling their local reps for fear of claims that could land them in hot water.
see below

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I gotta believe Mac Donald's and the like are pretty touchy about their corporate brand though.
I have a friend whose full-time job was to go around secretly visiting different McDonald's to ensure they were compliant with their rules.
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Old 10th December 2014, 03:17 PM   #1052
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It's a difficult issue. For any individual, they are most likely correct. But for the group as a whole they would be better off engaging in sensible debate rather than leaving all the talking to the "critics".

Amway tends to be on the "don't talk" side of the ledger because they know there's a risk of IBOs saying things that may put them at legal risk (eg health claims, income claims etc) - an extremely difficult area to police on the internet as the laws (as well as Amway's rules) are often different in different markets.
Many corporations like McDonald's will have secret shopper types to monitor their stores. I believe facebook has fulltime staff that monitor their website to remove inappropriate material.

I don't see why Amway couldn't hire someone to monitor the web to warn IBOs in violation of Amway rules and/or to educate IBOs. Unless of course you are sitting in that position now.
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Old 13th August 2018, 11:57 PM   #1053
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4 years have gone by

So, how are the Amway businesses going? It has been four years since anyone has posted to this thread.
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Old 14th August 2018, 01:06 AM   #1054
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Given that 99% of MLM "buyers" fail miserably and four years having passed, I reckon they're 4% better off than they were four years ago.
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Old 14th August 2018, 02:27 AM   #1055
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Old 14th August 2018, 03:36 AM   #1056
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Originally Posted by nothanks View Post
So, how are the Amway businesses going? It has been four years since anyone has posted to this thread.
Hey havent seen you for ages! Hows the family? We should all get together.
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Old 14th August 2018, 05:27 PM   #1057
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Not so sure about individuals but Amway corporation has revenues of 11.8 billion in 2013 and has decreased each year since, coming in at 8.6 billion in 2017. That's a little more than a 25% decrease.

I suspect there are fewer ferraris and mansions being purchased by the "diamonds" and other bejeweled Amway higher ups.
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Old 15th August 2018, 12:21 PM   #1058
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Not so sure about individuals but Amway corporation has revenues of 11.8 billion in 2013 and has decreased each year since, coming in at 8.6 billion in 2017. That's a little more than a 25% decrease.

I suspect there are fewer ferraris and mansions being purchased by the "diamonds" and other bejeweled Amway higher ups.
They're buying federal [Secretaryships] nowadays.
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Old 15th August 2018, 12:44 PM   #1059
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It still makes me laugh to see the people who told me as far back as the mid-80s how they'd be driving the Ferraris, but still in Mazdas.
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Old 15th August 2018, 01:13 PM   #1060
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It still makes me laugh to see the people who told me as far back as the mid-80s how they'd be driving the Ferraris, but still in Mazdas.
A friend of mine who has been doing MLMs of various types (Amway is consistent, though, aaaaalways Amway) was just using gofundme to ask people to pay for her car repair last month.

Amway associate since 1986 IIRC, and married a guy who has probably been doing it longer. They remain convinced their fortune is just around the corner.
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Old 15th August 2018, 07:59 PM   #1061
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Maybe people who stick with Amway are under the same delusion as Gambler's Fallacy?
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Old 16th August 2018, 11:45 AM   #1062
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Maybe people who stick with Amway are under the same delusion as Gambler's Fallacy?
I don't have a good explanation, but I'm not getting the impression that they're treating it as accumulating luck.

I think they genuinely believe they will be rewarded in proportion to their efforts, but just haven't figured out how to turn the corner.

I'm thinking it's probably a combination of these instead;

1. sunken cost fallacy. Like when a person joins a gym but never works out, and keeps making new years resolutions to use that membership instead of cancel. Forget the cash cost of the kits - the real cost for AMWAY salesreps is lost years of life and soured friendships.

2. cognitive dissonance. The rallies are very emphatic about the fact that anybody can succeed if they try hard enough. For those who have internalized this as true, failure means they're lazy OR it means AMWAY lied and they got duped. Neither outcome is great for self image. Technically, if they haven't given up, they haven't failed yet, so dragging it out year after year postpones the inevitable moment of truth.
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Old 16th August 2018, 12:53 PM   #1063
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I mentioned this in another thread as a potential X factor in all this.

MLMs are a goddamn epidemic in the military spouse community. Back when I was active duty my wife complained shouldn't couldn't even be around other military wives in the most casual of circumstances without getting heavy handed pushes for Scentsy or whatever.

She said that after a while she got the impression for a lot of the (mostly) women MLMs were a way for them to fell like they had a job, so they didn't feel bored or useless. The fact that they weren't actually making any money was beside the point.

They were, in essence, services that you paid a fee to so you could say you had a job without technically lying.

In fact she was shocked and rather put off by the hate and vitriol that many of the MLM wives had against wives that were unemployed/not working. The fact that they weren't actually making any money, and were often time costing their family money was beside the point. The fact that their "job" for the most part consisted of nothing but hounding people online or at whatever social gathering they found themselves was beside the point. They had "a job" and could look down on those who did not.
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Old 19th August 2018, 06:06 PM   #1064
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I guess the previous Amway IBO's who posted to this thread are now too busy strolling the beaches of the world to post. Too busy to respond to the losers and dream stealers.
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Old 19th August 2018, 07:20 PM   #1065
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Originally Posted by nothanks View Post
I guess the previous Amway IBO's who posted to this thread are now too busy strolling the beaches of the world to post. Too busy to respond to the losers and dream stealers.
One of them owns this forum.
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Old 20th August 2018, 04:51 AM   #1066
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
One of them owns this forum.
Another highly profitable venture, I assume.
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Old 20th August 2018, 09:53 AM   #1067
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Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic View Post
Another highly profitable venture, I assume.
Not if the number of active members is anything to go by.
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Old 20th August 2018, 09:54 AM   #1068
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not if the number of active members is anything to go by.
Yeah I'm sure the membership fee revenue is way down...
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Old 20th August 2018, 10:01 AM   #1069
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I mentioned this in another thread as a potential X factor in all this.

MLMs are a goddamn epidemic in the military spouse community. Back when I was active duty my wife complained shouldn't couldn't even be around other military wives in the most casual of circumstances without getting heavy handed pushes for Scentsy or whatever.

She said that after a while she got the impression for a lot of the (mostly) women MLMs were a way for them to fell like they had a job, so they didn't feel bored or useless. The fact that they weren't actually making any money was beside the point.

They were, in essence, services that you paid a fee to so you could say you had a job without technically lying.

In fact she was shocked and rather put off by the hate and vitriol that many of the MLM wives had against wives that were unemployed/not working. The fact that they weren't actually making any money, and were often time costing their family money was beside the point. The fact that their "job" for the most part consisted of nothing but hounding people online or at whatever social gathering they found themselves was beside the point. They had "a job" and could look down on those who did not.
To be fair, I don't think I met anyone with Amway. However I've met people selling just about every other MLM out there. I get it, it's hard when you move around so much to find employment so they get sucked into a MLM.

If you have to buy your way into employment and to keep that employment you not only have to sell it but also get other people to buy it and sell it then it's pretty scammy in my opinion.
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Old 20th August 2018, 10:47 AM   #1070
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by nothanks
I guess the previous Amway IBO's who posted to this thread are now too busy strolling the beaches of the world to post. Too busy to respond to the losers and dream stealers.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
One of them owns this forum.
If he makes any money off this forum, it's probably a lot more than he made in Amway.

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Old 20th August 2018, 11:28 AM   #1071
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If this is bait to get icerat out of hiding I doubt he is going to take it
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Old 20th August 2018, 11:46 AM   #1072
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
If this is bait to get icerat out of hiding I doubt he is going to take it
Icerat/insider/insider201283/ibofightback has been absent from any Amway-related websites that I've seen.

I think he's finally come to terms with his position on Amway. I think he's pursuing other interests.
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Old 20th August 2018, 11:55 AM   #1073
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I mentioned this in another thread as a potential X factor in all this.

MLMs are a goddamn epidemic in the military spouse community. Back when I was active duty my wife complained shouldn't couldn't even be around other military wives in the most casual of circumstances without getting heavy handed pushes for Scentsy or whatever.

She said that after a while she got the impression for a lot of the (mostly) women MLMs were a way for them to fell like they had a job, so they didn't feel bored or useless. The fact that they weren't actually making any money was beside the point.

They were, in essence, services that you paid a fee to so you could say you had a job without technically lying.

In fact she was shocked and rather put off by the hate and vitriol that many of the MLM wives had against wives that were unemployed/not working. The fact that they weren't actually making any money, and were often time costing their family money was beside the point. The fact that their "job" for the most part consisted of nothing but hounding people online or at whatever social gathering they found themselves was beside the point. They had "a job" and could look down on those who did not.
I can definitely see that happening with military wives by virtue of the fact that they have such difficulty keeping a career if they have to move often. There's a lot of financial risk that goes along with being a military wife if the relationship goes sour. The incentive to do anything to exist in denial of the risk would be massive.
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Old 20th August 2018, 12:34 PM   #1074
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I can definitely see that happening with military wives by virtue of the fact that they have such difficulty keeping a career if they have to move often. There's a lot of financial risk that goes along with being a military wife if the relationship goes sour. The incentive to do anything to exist in denial of the risk would be massive.
I think it's also particular to AmWay... the brand is hyper-patriotic (AMWAY stands for "The American Way"), hyper-Christian, and hyper-Republican at this point. It's not just an income stream, it's virtue signalling.

Versus taking on any other portable business, such as website design, software development, or ghost writing autobiographies. Or portable professions, such as nursing or physiotherapy.
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Old 20th August 2018, 12:52 PM   #1075
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I think it's also particular to AmWay... the brand is hyper-patriotic (AMWAY stands for "The American Way"), hyper-Christian, and hyper-Republican at this point. It's not just an income stream, it's virtue signalling.

Versus taking on any other portable business, such as website design, software development, or ghost writing autobiographies. Or portable professions, such as nursing or physiotherapy.
I'm pretty sure website design is mostly a thing of the past for Americans now when it comes to being a "real job" because of competition with people in India.

Nursing might be really hard to constantly move around, too, depending on the nature of the dude's job in the military, if they have kids, etc.

Finding a portable career sounds like a PITA. Definitely more pleasant to "sell" Amway. LOL
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Old 20th August 2018, 01:48 PM   #1076
blutoski
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm pretty sure website design is mostly a thing of the past for Americans now when it comes to being a "real job" because of competition with people in India.
Yes, I was being kind of high level. I still have peers who are doing well with it, it's just that it's not called webdesign anymore. Development? "Online Presence Solutions" maybe. Marketing lingo moves faster than my attention span with this stuff.



Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Nursing might be really hard to constantly move around, too, depending on the nature of the dude's job in the military, if they have kids, etc.
Well, that's different, though. If a person is a primary childcare provider - male or female - AFAIC, they already have a fulltime job, so what's the motive for hanging their hat on Amway?



Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Finding a portable career sounds like a PITA. Definitely more pleasant to "sell" Amway. LOL
Meaning, outside of the virtue signalling maybe? What I was getting at was that Amway is particularly patriotic versus other options, fill in the blank. Tupperware parties, for example, if we want to go in that direction. Mary Kay.
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Old 20th August 2018, 01:57 PM   #1077
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Well, that's different, though. If a person is a primary childcare provider - male or female - AFAIC, they already have a fulltime job, so what's the motive for hanging their hat on Amway?
Not having a career is financially risky. It turns out terribly in the long run sometimes, especially for military wives.

Quote:
Meaning, outside of the virtue signalling maybe? What I was getting at was that Amway is particularly patriotic versus other options, fill in the blank. Tupperware parties, for example, if we want to go in that direction. Mary Kay.
Being in denial about the financial risk and being able to tell yourself you won't turn out like Divorced Wife X (most military wives know of the horror stories), because you have a job/career. That sounds comparatively easier than just accepting the fact that you're in what could be called "grave financial danger", or having to figure out a portable career.
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Old 20th August 2018, 02:07 PM   #1078
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Not having a career is financially risky. It turns out terribly in the long run sometimes, especially for military wives.
Understood... I'm one of those guys who was very comfortable as a stay at home dad for my kids' early years - my wife is the primary earner in our family. I understood the career impact.

But I'm comparing that versus what these women are doing, which seems to be going through the motions. The only thing IMO worse than being unemployed is wasting time on a non-career like Amway.


Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Being in denial about the financial risk and being able to tell yourself you won't turn out like Divorced Wife X (most military wives know of the horror stories), because you have a job/career. That sounds comparatively easier than just accepting the fact that you're in what could be called "grave financial danger", or having to figure out a portable career.
So why Amway then, is what I don't get.
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Old 20th August 2018, 02:20 PM   #1079
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
So why Amway then, is what I don't get.
Are we sure it's just or even primarily Amway? Re-reading JoeMorgue's post, it looks like they drift from one fad MLM thing to another, maybe...
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Old 20th August 2018, 05:03 PM   #1080
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In my early 20s I moved in with a roommate and we both had a full set of Cutco knives, having bought the same $150 demonstration kit. I felt it was a legit operation even though a lot of the revenue came from selling demonstration kits. If either of us had any sales talent, we could have made money. They were excellent knives. Lasted forever. I gave/traded most of the kit away eventually.
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