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Old Today, 06:01 AM   #201
Beelzebuddy
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There are a number of reasons that a reasonable person might have voted for Trump, ranging from lodging a protest vote (remember, NO ONE expected him to win) to genuinely wanting to give an outsider a chance.

But now that he's had a chance, and demonstrated that "orange turd" is indeed his true color and not just a show for the primaries, if you're STILL a Trumper and you'd vote for him again, yeah I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're racist. Even if you haven't admitted it to yourself, you're at least okay with supporting someone who is outright racist, and that's close enough to justify a good hard look at what you really value.
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Old Today, 06:04 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
If I support racist policies, and I am not a racist myself, then I have decided to lump myself with the racists.
Is this another hallucination?
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Old Today, 06:09 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
There are a number of reasons that a reasonable person might have voted for Trump, ranging from lodging a protest vote (remember, NO ONE expected him to win) to genuinely wanting to give an outsider a chance.

But now that he's had a chance, and demonstrated that "orange turd" is indeed his true color and not just a show for the primaries, if you're STILL a Trumper and you'd vote for him again, yeah I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're racist. Even if you haven't admitted it to yourself, you're at least okay with supporting someone who is outright racist, and that's close enough to justify a good hard look at what you really value.
Hey they were still fine with voting for someone who thought @whitegenodiceTM was a good source for information on how 85% of murders of white people are done by the monstrous animalistic blacks. There is nothing wrong with getting your facts from nazi propaganda like Trump demonstrated repeatedly after all.

Intentionally associating with nazis doesn't make one a bad person or racist, and voting for someone who promotes nazi propaganda isn't bad and doesn't make one racist.
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Old Today, 06:24 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is this another hallucination?
Well the first couple of iterations of the Muslim ban seem pretty close to that. Certainly xenophobic if you want more prrcision.

I will correct it as follows.

If you support someone who keeps spouting racist rhetoric and who the Klan likes and who has attempted to enact policies that just happen to target non-whites, and who has pardoned a criminal sheriff for his violations of the civil rights of non-whites, then don't be surprised if people mistake you for a racist.

Can you explain what else they would need to do to for you to accept that they are being racist?
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Old Today, 06:29 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
There are a number of reasons that a reasonable person might have voted for Trump, ranging from lodging a protest vote (remember, NO ONE expected him to win) to genuinely wanting to give an outsider a chance.

But now that he's had a chance, and demonstrated that "orange turd" is indeed his true color and not just a show for the primaries, if you're STILL a Trumper and you'd vote for him again, yeah I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're racist. Even if you haven't admitted it to yourself, you're at least okay with supporting someone who is outright racist, and that's close enough to justify a good hard look at what you really value.
An analogy: You can't really be blamed for showing up for a march where a certain demographic chants "Jews will not replace us," if you didn't know they'll be there. However, if you see and hear them and decide to go along, things are a bit different.
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Old Today, 09:12 AM   #206
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ahh, bless

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...her-interview/

Although I do feel sorry for the parents

ETa

You have to feel sympathy for the organiser of the Charlottesville rally if
Quote:
Jason Kessler, however, told the paper that he has been treated unfairly.
“I’ve been turned into an avatar of hate,” he said.
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Old Today, 09:28 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I am sure that some people are perfectly fine on a personal level with all races and just support someone who makes common cause with the Klan.

However it is a bit of a moot point.

If I support racist policies, and I am not a racist myself, then I have decided to lump myself with the racists.
I met a guy once who swore he wasn't an addict, he just really liked the smell of cocaine.

Anyone still supporting Trump at this point is about as believable when they claim to not be racist.
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Old Today, 10:13 AM   #208
sir drinks-a-lot
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But really now, according to the great minds at ISF who isn't a racist these days?
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Old Today, 10:24 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I am sure that some people are perfectly fine on a personal level with all races and just support someone who makes common cause with the Klan.

However it is a bit of a moot point.

If I support racist policies, and I am not a racist myself, then I have decided to lump myself with the racists.
I think it a case of "Trump might be a bigot, but that is fine with me as long as I get my taxes lowered".
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Old Today, 10:27 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
ahh, bless

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...her-interview/

Although I do feel sorry for the parents

ETa

You have to feel sympathy for the organiser of the Charlottesville rally if
Oh, gee, you welcome Nazis and Kluxers with open arms,and people think you ar "Avatar of Hate". Whatta surprise.
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Old Today, 10:36 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
But really now, according to the great minds at ISF who isn't a racist these days?
St. Michelle of the Guns.
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Old Today, 10:41 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is this another hallucination?
Since taking office, this administration has:

Stepped up harassment of all immigrants and refugees from nonwhite countries, up to and including separating small children from parents,
Attempted to ban muslims from entering the US, at times regardless of immigration status,
Attempted to sabotage any look into police racism, corruption, or violence (most notably attempting to blow up the consent decree for the laughably corrupt Baltimore PD, anyone that wants a decent understanding of that can simply look into the Gun Trace Task Force),
Asked the FBI to stop looking into white nationalist terrorist groups,
rolled back enforcement of discrimination laws in home and auto loans, desegregation, and education,
Shown deliberate hostility to hurricane recovery efforts in Puerto Rico,
Attacked Affirmative Action programs, but notably *not* legacy admissions programs,
Walked back on all funding promises to HBCUs,
repeatedly attacked black celebrities and athletes to whip up angry crowds (often despite them doing far more for communities as private citizens than this administration has, including Colin Kaepernick and Lebron James),
Praised Nazi fetishists and white supremacist terrorists,
Added prominent white nationalist Steve Bannon to the National Security Council, as well as sought council from prominent bigots Stephen Miller, Sebastian Gorka, and Jeff Sessions,
Frequently endorsed Confederate apologists (and child molestors) for federal office,
Endorsed anti-LGBT discrimination, including endorsing such on spurious religious grounds and ending federal policies regarding firms that refuse to hire LGBT people,
Attempted to kick Transgendered people out of the military entirely.

So no, it's not "another hallucination." Yes, the last two are blatantly anti-LGBT instead of blatantly racist, but that's to be expected from white supremacists. About the only thing he's done that's even slightly out of character is his fondness for Israel - and even that's more about hatred towards Iran and Palestinians than anything else. The man's a piece of scum, accept it and move on.
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Old Today, 10:43 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Oh, gee, you welcome Nazis and Kluxers with open arms,and people think you ar "Avatar of Hate". Whatta surprise.
That's exactly what the outcome ought to be, and what he should have been trying to become. I'd say he deserves a round of applause for a job well done.
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Old Today, 11:09 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
But really now, according to the great minds at ISF who isn't a racist these days?
Lots of people, however not that many who think that the Klan is anything other than racist scum.
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Old Today, 11:11 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
That's exactly what the outcome ought to be, and what he should have been trying to become. I'd say he deserves a round of applause for a job well done.
It's not exactly brain surgery, even Carson level.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old Today, 12:00 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I suppose my post was unclear. The neo-nazis are certainly having a resurgence that many would have considered unimaginable even a couple years ago. I am of the hope that we are seeing their relevancy approaching its peak and their star will soon descend into nothingness. That remains to be seen. If that is not true, I frankly don't know what a reasonable course of action would be. So maybe my lack of preparedness is biasing me towards optimism.
Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

And I hope my enthusiasm isn't coming across as being rude; rudeness is not my point and I try to avoid it.


Quote:
There are many nasty elements residing within the general conservative political body. I am still holding out hope that open white supremacy is bridge too far for a substantial portion of that political body. I am in no position to assert this, as I don't understand these people or their recent actions really at all.
I wish I could join you in your hope.



Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I have a problem with calling Obama a fascist. I could accept, "authoritarian", I would agree with, "conservative" but fascist seems baseless.
Sure, that makes sense. What kind of reasonable evidence would be convincing for you? Perhaps I can produce something that would work.



Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
My point is that the violent response to the NAZIs by the communists probably aided the NAZI's rise to power. A violent response to them now will probably do the same.Which I do not in any way disagree with. I disagree with the use of violent protest.

For two reasons. It's what they want and will empower push the right farther right rather than disempower the NAZI's. And so has communism and people that called themselves socialists. I know you seem them as completely different but realize that most folks don't. So your arguments can be used to justify violence against commies.
Yes, I suppose they can. However, anything can and has been used to justify the violence on behalf of the fascists. Again, history shows us this to be true. But we can also see what happened to groups which did not endorse or use violence in self-defense; they were not simply left alone or treated any more fairly than the violent communists but persecuted and vilified anyway.

We are seeing that today as well. The Reps/right can and do make all kinds of things up (i.e., Qanon) even when there is no sign of violence. There is no sign of literally anything in the case of Qanon. Yet, to the right and conservative people, it's a real thing they must be afraid of.


Quote:
And once societies get used to the use of violence as a political tactic, history indicates that they will generally expand the groups and ideas for which violenced is appropriate. The NAZI's did it, the Chinese communists did it, the Kmer Rouge did.......
Sure, its a slippery slope argument but historically, that slippery slope has often been true and resulted in a lot of people getting killed. Political violence should not be accepted in any society for any reason regardless of how abhorrent the targets are. Political violence is more abhorrent.
What would have been a non-violent response that would have prevented the accumulation of power by Hitler or Mussolini that ended up being massively violent in order to stop it from going further than it already had?


Quote:
Not sure what you mean by that.
It was just my melodramatic opening to my next point. Nothing more.


Quote:
Oddly, I agree with this, the problem is that half the country always cares about this but only when the other side is in office.
It seems that way, doesn't it? heh. What I think is telling is that all of Trumpies supporters and all the supposedly pro-gun/pro-2nd amendment Republicans and right wingers not making a single peep or bleat about their "precious gun rights" being taken by their Fürher's law-enforcement thug. I mean, no one is really going to mention it now, of course, but at least we can add it on top of the breathtakingly immense pile of hypocritical sayings and doings of the right/et al.


Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Branding anybody who is not on the militant left a "Fascist" is old,old,trick of the militant left.
Evil exists on all ends of the poitical spectrum.
The main reason I dislike Marxism so much is that , in power, it has always been destructive of individual freedoms.
Then I really don't believe you understand what Marxism is nor fascism by this statement, nor are you actually reading what I've written. It's laughably obvious, in fact.


Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
When it comes to "I want to suppress opinions I don't like" seems to me that there is not much to choose between TBD and The Norseman.
And by this statement, you're reinforcing your ignorance of what it is that's actually being said.


Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Extremism on either side of any subject is bad. Extreme leftists can be just as evil and/or wrong as extreme rightists.
I've not said otherwise. The current issue with American fascism is, as previous issues of fascism have been, right wing, however.
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Old Today, 12:06 PM   #217
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Quote:
Then I really don't believe you understand what Marxism is nor fascism by this statement, nor are you actually reading what I've written. It's laughably obvious, in fact.
I don't really care what Marxism claims to be, I just look at the way it operates when in power.
And, yes, I consider Marxism and Fascism to be equally destructive of freedom and individual rights when in power. I think history proves my point.
Only difference is that with Fascism,you don't have quite as many people claiming it's a good idea that was badly executed but next time we will get it right.
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Old Today, 12:09 PM   #218
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I met a guy once who swore he wasn't an addict, he just really liked the smell of cocaine.

Anyone still supporting Trump at this point is about as believable when they claim to not be racist.
Oh, I think some of them are not racist, but they will support racism and bigotry if it gets them their Tax Breaks....
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Old Today, 12:19 PM   #219
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob
I have a problem with calling Obama a fascist. I could accept, "authoritarian", I would agree with, "conservative" but fascist seems baseless.
Sure, that makes sense. What kind of reasonable evidence would be convincing for you? Perhaps I can produce something that would work.
Well evidence that he wants a total mobilisation and a rejection of press freedom and checks and balances in the constitution.
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Old Today, 12:42 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
NOTICE: Big Dog's absurd posts about ANTIFA deliberately ignore that these were counter protests to ******* NAZIs! I'm not defending violence of any kind and the stupid kids in hoodies and bandanas have trashed Seattle and Portland regularly...my towns. Still last year in Charlotte these real life NAZI fascists killed a woman. In Portland last year one of them killed a man on the bus.

Really sad BIG DOG when ANTIFA makes you angry and NAZIs are ignored.
Which one at the rally did those things? I assume you are supporting violence against known murderers. That I can somewhat understand.

Otherwise you are supporting violence based on ideas held, with no evidence of wrongdoing. That is morally repugnant.
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Old Today, 01:06 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Which one at the rally did those things? I assume you are supporting violence against known murderers. That I can somewhat understand.

Otherwise you are supporting violence based on ideas held, with no evidence of wrongdoing. That is morally repugnant.
Ideas expressed and attempted intimidation at the least.
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Old Today, 01:52 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Well evidence that he wants a total mobilisation and a rejection of press freedom and checks and balances in the constitution.
I think the real problem was Obama was not radical enough for the poster in question.
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Old Today, 03:59 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
An analogy: You can't really be blamed for showing up for a march where a certain demographic chants "Jews will not replace us," if you didn't know they'll be there. However, if you see and hear them and decide to go along, things are a bit different.

It may not be an analogy. I'm pretty sure that excuse was proposed quite seriously by some apologists during the aftermath to Charlottesville.
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Old Today, 04:01 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Since taking office, this administration has:

Stepped up harassment of all immigrants and refugees from nonwhite countries, up to and including separating small children from parents,
Attempted to ban muslims from entering the US, at times regardless of immigration status,
Attempted to sabotage any look into police racism, corruption, or violence (most notably attempting to blow up the consent decree for the laughably corrupt Baltimore PD, anyone that wants a decent understanding of that can simply look into the Gun Trace Task Force),
Asked the FBI to stop looking into white nationalist terrorist groups,
rolled back enforcement of discrimination laws in home and auto loans, desegregation, and education,
Shown deliberate hostility to hurricane recovery efforts in Puerto Rico,
Attacked Affirmative Action programs, but notably *not* legacy admissions programs,
Walked back on all funding promises to HBCUs,
repeatedly attacked black celebrities and athletes to whip up angry crowds (often despite them doing far more for communities as private citizens than this administration has, including Colin Kaepernick and Lebron James),
Praised Nazi fetishists and white supremacist terrorists,
Added prominent white nationalist Steve Bannon to the National Security Council, as well as sought council from prominent bigots Stephen Miller, Sebastian Gorka, and Jeff Sessions,
Frequently endorsed Confederate apologists (and child molestors) for federal office,
Endorsed anti-LGBT discrimination, including endorsing such on spurious religious grounds and ending federal policies regarding firms that refuse to hire LGBT people,
Attempted to kick Transgendered people out of the military entirely.

<snip>

A good list. Unfortunately it may also be a list of some of the things that the "I'm not a racist" Trump supporters find admirable about his performance so far.
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Old Today, 04:06 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't really care what Marxism claims to be, I just look at the way it operates when in power.
And, yes, I consider Marxism and Fascism to be equally destructive of freedom and individual rights when in power. I think history proves my point.
Only difference is that with Fascism,you don't have quite as many people claiming it's a good idea that was badly executed but next time we will get it right.

Sure you do. That's one of the basic tenets of right wing-nut conservatism. Don't ever change anything. If it didn't work before, try again, only more so. War on Crime ... War on Drugs ... War on Terror ... etc., etc..

They are the poster children for "Doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result."
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Old Today, 04:13 PM   #226
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Old Today, 04:26 PM   #227
jimbob
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Sure you do. That's one of the basic tenets of right wing-nut conservatism. Don't ever change anything. If it didn't work before, try again, only more so. War on Crime ... War on Drugs ... War on Terror ... etc., etc..

They are the poster children for "Doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result."
Those might be authoritarian right wing ideas, but a lot of the administrations that have pushed them were in no way fascist.
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old Today, 05:36 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Oh, I think some of them are not racist, but they will support racism and bigotry if it gets them their Tax Breaks....
Most of them aren't even getting that, at least not for very long. I doubt if they are even in the top 50%, let alone the 1%. But they are easily deceived.
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Old Today, 07:08 PM   #229
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Most of them aren't even getting that, at least not for very long. I doubt if they are even in the top 50%, let alone the 1%. But they are easily deceived.
You also have the Mickey Mousers...the people who would blindly support Mickey Mouse if he were a Republican President.
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