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#361 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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Are we part of the "social media engagement?"
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#362 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,012
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Amway does not seem to be a reliable system for generating income for most people. Yes, some people can make money off of it. But, clearly not most people.
I think the "scam" description can to fit Amway because they fail to clearly disclose that. They make no effort in vetting the "right people", and instead cast a wide net, hoping a few stick. They don't say things like "If you have XYZ personality traits, and can work ZYX number of hours on this system, then YOU can probably make money." They seem to imply that anyone, or almost anyone, can do it! Amway could, for all I know, be a perfectly legal, legitimate, and successful corporation. But, the word "scam" can still apply as long as they remain seemingly disingenuous at just who could and should apply for this type of system. |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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#363 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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oh good grief. I normally don't see joecool'sposts, he's on my ignore list, but I had to see what you are responding too.
Joecool knows the story behind that, and knows that post is full of lies, but he continues to post it. Years ago I considered starting a reputation management business as an addition to another business I already had offering internet services. I never proceeded with it. I am not paid by Amway and, as Joecool knows, Amway themselves have explicitly stated this after being asked on one of their blogs. If I was paid to endorse Amway it would be a violation of both EU and US law for me not to disclose it. The interesting thing is that Joecool runs multiple anti-Amway blogs, averaging nearly a blog post a day, makes anti-amway comments all around the net (including starting this thread), has been caught starting fake blogs and making fake comments pretending to be an Amway business owner .... and only very rarely posts any of this outside of business hours. Look at this thread. He starts it up and gets it running, then leaves it be until it dies down - then posts on it again and again to get it moving again. Let's not forgot - Amway internet critics have been caught working with Amway competitors before. Yet he tries to claim *I* am the paid shill? Right. |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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#364 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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That's because that's the experience.
There's been unemployed, uneducated people, deaf people, blind people, people in wheelchairs, home mothers, PhDs, Corporate Executives, top athletes, fat people, accountants, people with no people skills, and top sales people, young people and old people .... every type of person you can imagine has succeeded in Amway. This has been well documented in the various books that have been written about Amway.
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Having said that, no, it's not for everyone, but don't you think it's the individuals right to decide if they want to give it a go and find out? They're given plenty of time to dip their feet in the water at little or no financial risk. If they decide the business is not for them, no problem, they resign their membership and get their money back (including on any products, even used), or alternatively - as many chose to do - they can keep their membership and continue to purchase any products they like, and give it another go later if they want. As Justice Norris said in BERR vs Amway UK - it's an opportunity, not a guarantee |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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#365 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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In 2012, 18982 new distributorships reached the level of "platinum" for the first time. In most countries that's usually the equivalent of at least full-time income, from a part-time business.
Clearly plenty of people find it a viable business. As I asked earlier - what is the antagonism towards letting people try something? |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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#366 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 10,293
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As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities. - Voltaire. |
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#367 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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A lot, lot, lot less than Joecool spends attacking it.
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My most active other thread on JREF is defending Microsoft from what I perceive to be unfair attacks. Honest question - why do you think my behaviour is "weird" but don't appear to question Joecool's, who clearly spends A LOT more time attacking Amway than I do defending it.
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It's a well known phenomenon. Deeply held beliefs that are challenged often become more strongly held. Oh wait ... I know that, yet still challenge people on this forum! But ChrisBFRPKY says I'm trying to recruit people! And others of you apparently think I'm a paid shill! ![]() One would think I would have been fired by now .... ![]() You regularly see the same thing on the homeopathy threads, with defenders claiming attackers are working for "big pharma" etc. For the record, I don't think Joecool is paid to attack Amway. I think he's possibly OCD and stealing his employers time pursuing the focus of his unhealthy obsession. |
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#368 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 10,293
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As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities. - Voltaire. |
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#369 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 10,293
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As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities. - Voltaire. |
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#370 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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It's unhealthy to call out BS on the internet?
Yeah, you're probably right .... ![]() Nevertheless the amount of time I spend "defending" Multilevel marketing does not approach that have anti-mlm critics like Joecool, Robert FitzPatrick, Jon Taylor, Cheryl Rhodes et.al. You consider a few posts on a JREF forum an "obsession"? You might want to check out the Amanda Knox thread! ![]() I have an experience, interest, and expertise in a topic. I make money out of that experience, interest, and expertise (googleads on my sites). I'm looking at publishing at least 2 books in the area, and have some academic papers in mind as well. I'd spend at most a few hours a week on it. I don't think that quite fits the definition of "obession". But again I ask - why accuse me of "obession" but not the thread starter? Indeed, while I seem to be challenged on this occasionally, I've never once seen any anti-mlmers query Joecool. Confirmation bias is well in play. |
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#371 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,688
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Not as eloquent. So you mean the first time you were in Amway, and not the time after the first time when you recruited people for a downline. OK, let me try to ask in a way that should get straight forward answers if you'll be honest as one should be. Did you have another source of income during this first time before recruiting anyone? Were you able to make enough income from Amway monies received alone to support and keep a normal average USA family household located within the USA without an additional source of income being required to keep the household in food, utilities, house payment or rent etc? Have you ever started or are you currently affiliated with or do you currently own any interests in a reputation protection company of any type or form? Added:I like that picture BTW. |
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#372 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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I was profitable both times. First time I did no recruiting, just retailing. Second time I did both,
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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#373 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,688
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Thank you
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#374 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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But wouldn't that depend on whether they were selling at a profit or buying at a discount for their own use? I think you can see why this might be a problem in the stats if it is at all a common practice.
The antagonism is toward tricking people under false pretenses. It is no different than a negative reaction to any con or swindle. If, on the other hand, people who sign up are given full information and not misled, then how could I complain? My personal experience with Amway representatives was minimal. It did involve false characterizations. In your stat above, you do much the same. You mention how many reached a certain level, but left out how many did not. This is a mischaracterization by omission, isn't it? If I tell you that you should start playing basketball because I have made millions in the NBA, would you think I was offering you an opportunity or misrepresenting reality? What if I were selling basketballs? There is very much an opportunity to fib a bit, because of the asymmetry of information. I think you have mentioned that the "independent" part of the IBO acronym means Amway cannot police this. Furthermore, there is an incentive to shade the facts because of the downline structure. Let's say this was happening, hypothetically. What might be the result? One result would be a high turnover as people realized what was going on. What's the stat for that? (Note that "high turnover" doesn't have to mean people leaving Amway outright. Someone who becomes inactive would count as well.) |
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#375 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,012
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But, in point of fact: MOST of the folks who get into it do NOT succeed.
(And your list of "types of people" contains largely irrelevant, superficial factors. But, I'll let that slide.) If Amway was a legit business they would have figured that out, by now! Don't you think?! Many of those skills are practically useless for anything other than selling Amway. And, it seems MOST people either can't learn them, or can't execute what they've learned. So, maybe Amway should step up their efforts to figure out why. Have you ever heard a recruiter say "Hmmm... I don't think Amway is for you."? I suspect most recruiters will TAKE ALL the downline reps they can! Amway is trying to sell itself as something anyone can succeed in. The facts show that NOT anyone can succeed in it. Sure, people have the right to try it if they want. People also have the right buy stocks on margin and play roulette wheels. People can choose to throw their time and money at all sorts of stupid risks. I don't think Amway is conveying the risks of their system adequately. I am accusing Amway of being disingenuous with its sales pitch. And they seem to take no responsibility failures, nor are they trying to reduce failure rates by aiming for "better quality" people and practices. There are probably a few different reasons why Amway can be called a "scam". The one reason I am picking on seems to be one reason you can't defend, except via linguistic gymnastics: You can't sweep a scam under a rug by calling it an "opportunity". Bernie Madoff's company was also an "opportunity" and not a guarantee. |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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#376 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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Tall tales. Some studies and testimonies from former platinums have indicated that it's very possible to be a platinum and have a net loss. Also, all those new platinums may have replaced former platinums who no loner qualify. Amway's policy is "once a platinum, always a platinum".
Cindy Droog, an Amway corporate blogger has said that there is now way that they can confirm that people are earning "full time incomes" from Amway as they don't know what operating expenses an IBO has and as such, people should not be making such claims. |
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#377 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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How would an Amway corporate blogger know if you were on the payroll or not?
And since you bring it up, I'm also a speed reader and the articles on my blog have been reprint for the last two years. How long do you think it takes to copy and paste a new article a few times per week? You're the one who has google alerts set up so you know exactly when someone posts something about Amway on the internet. It's sort of your "bat signal". Frankly, I think you're obsessed with me along with Amway. How much time do you spend monitoring my internet activity? You must have spent hours and hours to incorrectly identify my identity. I believe it's called cyber stalking and cyber bullying. Did you mention that an Amway corporate blogger called you a cyber bully for stalking me online? You're rather creepy now that I think about it. |
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#378 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 42,632
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AMway toothpaste is 10 to 12 dollars for a travel size tube???????
Wow, if you needed any more proof that Amway is a scam..... |
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#379 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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#380 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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#381 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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Evidence?
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(2) You don't think significantly increased sanctions for engaging in bad practices and significantly increasing available (free) training is "not trying to reduce failure rates"?
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Care to explain how much time you've spent and evidence you've gone over to come to a conclusion contrary to his? And contrary to the three judges on the appeals panel? |
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#382 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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#383 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,012
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This page YOU linked to:
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/am...are-your-odds/ It doesn't show very favorable "odds", at all, to me! It looks like MOST people who form IBOs do not succeed, even from the evidence YOU provided. |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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#384 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,325
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#385 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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The system is flawed and designed for the vast majority to fail. A platinum group is often 100 IBO's or more. But there's one platinum and a bunch that aren't. System expenses can eat up all or most of a platinum's income.
Why aren't people doing what is recommended to be successful? I would reply that "anyone" can win the lottery. All they need to do is select the correct winning numbers. While Amway is not necessarily a game of chance, the ultimate results are comparable to playing a lottery. |
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#386 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,888
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I posit that the tendency is that those who do succeed do so from not being adverse to scamming. Guilting family and friends into overpriced stuff that they don't really want, lying to people (which Amway itself can claim they disavow) about the products, targeting elderly, and lying to down stream network people who buy items they hope to sell but never either sell or consume.
The 'right skills' for being successful with Amway might very well be scamming skills. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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#387 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,012
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__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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#388 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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First of all, how are you defining successful?
If someone joins up primarily to buy products at the wholesale price, and they do so - are they a success or a failure? MLM critics claim they are failures, even though they achieved what they set out to do. If someone signs up primarily to check out the business opportunity to see if it is for them, and they decide it isn't - are they a success or a failure? MLM critics claim they are failures, even though they achieved what they set out to do. If someone signs up primarily to make a couple of hundred of bucks a week, and do so - are they a success or a failure? MLM critics claim they are failures, even though they achieved what they set out to do.
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#389 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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Approaching 100% odds of making significant income by doing a few steps isn't favourable?
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The University of Westminster study I linked to earlier provides pretty clear evidence that few "family and friends" feel like they've been "guilted" in to anything. Can you provide evidence to counter the University of Westminster research? Your claims of inventory loading are serious. The FTC spent years investigating it and found no evidence it was true. Can you provide evidence to counter the FTC findings? The results of the Quixtar class action settlement provide pretty clear evidence that very few IBOs feel they were misled or scammed or lost money. Can you provide evidence to counter the settlement outcome? Overall I find Amway products good value. Which products have you tried that you don't think are good value? Agreed. |
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#390 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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In a non-controversial manner. A business is a success when it generates enough profit to be self-sustaining. I believe the acronym stands for "Independent Business Owner."
Indeed, if they sign up for those reasons and get what they expect, they cannot be deemed to have been scammed. But, neither can they be said to be successful in a business sense. Is it your stance that Amway is not a business opportunity at all and is not promoted as such? I note that the main splash at www.amway.com has the bold heading: "We are our own bosses." Does this suggest a buying club to you? As far as signing up and making a couple hundred bucks a week, is that gross or net? If it's net, and represents a profit, then it would be counted as a success. But from what I've read, this is not the common experience and, worse, we cannot tell if this is so from sales records, since the IBO may be consuming the products themselves. |
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#391 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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I asked this before but don't think I got a reply - you think Amway's nomenclature is what defines whether someone is in business or not. It's not the individuals goals, nor their activity, nor something small like laws?
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The point is that neither your nor I have the right, nor information, to decide what other people consider success or failure in their endeavours. |
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#392 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,012
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I am also curious as to why Amway business are called "Independent" Businesses. They seem very.... dependent... to me. Any thoughts?
Your document shows that only 50% of IBOs work towards the goal of making money. Of the 50% that do, a smaller percentage actually do so. That means MOST do not. Claiming that this is "approaching 100%" sounds like a severe case of cherry-picking. Oh, sure: If you ONLY count the success stories, then 100% of the success stories are successful! Brilliant! _______________________________________________ I have an idea: Let's Start over a bit: So far, I have only seen Amway taking a defensive stance against critiques. I would like to see how Amway can sell itself on its own merits, away from all of that. So... Pretend that I am aiming to be an entrepreneur (which actually isn't far from fact), and I would like to know how joining Amway would be better for me, than starting a new business in a conventional manner, that does not involve them? What are the pros and cons (if you have any) of doing that? Assume I know nothing about Amway for this exercise. Sell the Amway way! |
__________________
WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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#393 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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Do we have the right to point out they are being scammed?
For example, your logic would say that people who visit a psychic and come away believing they've contacted their dead relative should be free to do so - and maybe they should. But shouldn't I also be free to point out what's really going on? So too, if there's a bait and switch, where a business opportunity is offered and a buying opportunity replaces that, I'd be remiss if I didn't point it out. If Amway is a business opportunity and "business" isn't the result, I'm afraid the word "opportunity" is being misused here. And that's the essence of what a scam is. And by the way, it isn't the person who is a success or failure, it's Amway who fails them. I'd like to tap into your expertise here though. Is there an authentic presentation available online we can view and discuss? Somewhere we can see the current version of the circles? That should tell us what claims are being made and whether they are false, largely false, or true. |
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#394 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,317
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For those of you arguing with Icerat just remember that he will never give a single inch. He's a true believer that will distort reality in his mind to make amway the greatest thing since sliced bread. Which is hilarious because he's never had any success running any amway business and has simply bought into the hype. You are basically arguing with one of the marks. You would get further going down to your local scientology center and trying to convert them back to reason.
As someone that has been around "the business" my entire life it's definitely one of the biggest, if not the biggest, scams in history. I've personally witnessed countless people try and fail to make a buck while watching the guys at the top of the pyramid rake in huge profits form conventions, tapes etc. Icerat has a particular strategy of trying to separate or silo the different parts of amyway to protect the overall scam. For example if you ask where the tool profits go he will say they go to another company. It's always about deflecting blame and nary an inch will be given. Anyone with half a brain can see the scam here. You are trying to teach a horse to sing ![]() |
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#395 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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Not sure what you mean by "dependent". They choose when and where to work, how much, with whom, what products to market, and how - or to do none of the above. They're certainly less "dependent" say than say, independent McDonald's franchisees.
In any case, it's just a name, not even used in many parts of the world. Personally I think it smacks of desperation when critics try to claim people are building businesses purely because of Amway's nomenclature. Especially when they seem to think Amway is a dishonest company and lies about everything else! ![]()
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My experience, confirmed by people with groups that include millions, and supported by data revealed in several court cases, indicates that less than 10% engage in "business building" for even a short period of time, and less than 1% do so for the kind of consistent period of time necessary to build a significant income.
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Again - Do you believe MLMers should make money for doing little or no work? Sounds like you're disappointed it isn't some kind of "get rich quick" scheme.
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But for the sake of the argument I'll give you a few dot points, with the organization I affiliate with - Pros -
all for about $50/yr (actual figure depends on your market) Cons -
Sure, but at present your pointing out what you think is going on, and expert independent reviews says you're wrong.
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You're idea that people are only sold on one particular thing is a straw man.
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They failed me! ![]() Really? That's what you believe?
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Amway Australia has done some youtube presentations with "Zac", a stick figure, that are on their youtube channel. There's a series of them, available in multiple languages. Amway Europe also has some videos on their media site but they don't go in to a lot of details Various BSM companies have produced their own materials, it's a contract violation to post them publicly. There's some out there (usually outdated) if you look around. |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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#396 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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Is this how Amway is presented? I would recall to you the splash on their website that declares, "We are our own bosses." Did they really mean to say, "1% of us are our own bosses?"
Do you believe they should make no money for doing a lot of work? Do you think they should be misled into thinking that might be the case? I don't even think it's a get rich slow scheme. It may be a get poor slow scheme though. Wouldn't it be just as important to meet people who have failed at it and discuss it with them? That's true. My opinions are mine. But that makes me wonder who's opinions you adopt if not your own? Interesting. So the idea of a "business opportunity" and a way to become wealthy is no longer the focus of Amway presentations? Do they still use a "dream book?" Fascinating. But lets look at what Amway has to show us: http://www.achievemagazine.com/ - that's a link to their magazine. I looked around a bit, but couldn't find anything on being a retail customer or a wholesale price customer. Strangely, based on what you are saying, all the articles seem to be about making money and the people who do. And even stranger than that, the common theme seems to be about having more time to do what they want or spend with their kids. This doesn't sound like what you are describing at all. Should I send them a letter of complaint? I don't know. Did the club present themselves as an opportunity where anyone, with enough work and by following the recommendations, could become a black belt - when, in truth, only 1% ever made it to that level? Does your path to a black belt depend on recruiting others to do the exercises for you or is it based on your own efforts? Do they count as successes those who never get the belt but only watch from the sidelines, perhaps identifying those folks as getting a great deal on entertainment? This should disturb you. Along with what you said below: Why does that remind me of other organizations that keep the real deal secret? Oh, I know, I was thinking of that whole Scientology tech bit and copyrighted materials. But with Amway, we have a business opportunity, at least partly based on recruiting a downline. Why is it secret again? |
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#397 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,012
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What I am concerned about is the fact that Amway doesn't seem to care. They continue to cast a wide net: Anyone and everyone can join their ranks, the more the merrier! And, yet the bulk of them will end up making nothing. And that, in turn, ruins their reputation.
If I were Amway, I would have more scrutiny than that. I would try to make sure everyone who buys into the system has the drive and determination to stick it out as an entrepreneur! Sure, mistakes might still be made: Maybe some of the candidates we picked would end up being lazier than we thought. But, at least we put in the effort! And, the overall success rate would be higher without cherry picking. (And, that is being charitable. I am assuming, above, that Amway would be sold purely as an entrepreneurial opportunity to sell products. As it stands, with its MLM structure, a lot more of Amway involves selling Amway to more people, rather than products. But, I can forgo those complications to make my point.) Any company that is going to openly let the masses into it, by appealing to their dreams; with only a small number actually fulfilling those dreams with their system: Reeks of something like a "scam", to me. That is the point I was making. That is the point you have yet to address directly. I do NOT expect MLMers to make money with little or no work. I certainly would not expect Amway to be a "get rich quick" scheme. But, I WOULD expect a legitimate business to have more care than they seem to express, over just who is worthy to join their ranks of IBOs! |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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#398 |
The Infinitely Prolonged
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space)
Posts: 15,012
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If that was all you had to say, I would take that to mean Amway cannot really sell itself on its own merits, then. It would be a complete non-answer coming from you. But, at least you appended that with some bullet points:
So, would you agree with this? "Amway is effectively an opportunity for someone to start their own retail product business, without the tremendous overhead usually associated with starting one." If so, then THAT is really the selling point, I think. That could, potentially, be the very merits I was asking about, that Amway could defend itself on. And, that could be what really differentiates Amway from other types of business opportunities. However, I also understand that there is more to it than that. I hear there is a whole MLM angle associated with it. Would you be able to justify that particular aspect on its own merits? Why would I, as a retail entrepreneur want to be part of an MLM? If these products were so good, why would they need the convoluted system of Amway to sell them? Also: I could sell products that are just as awesome the traditional way. Yes, it would cost more. But, it still means that the "high quality products" argument is not a very strong or unique selling point. These points simply delineate specific details of the first point. It normally costs a TON of money for any business to have this level of logistical support behind them. Amway could be seen as an opportunity to tap into all of that infrastructure for very little cost. If you agree that is the case, you SHOULD be defending Amway more along those lines. Push forward the positive; and cut out all the wordy, elaborate defensive maneuvers! (For those of you just joining us, I should stress than I am aiming to be charitable, here.) Maybe someone should do a better job of selling Amway on its own merits. If the merits are really so good, this problem will take care of itself. This, I think, is a BIG ONE. If I were serious about considering joining Amway, I would certainly want this bullet point to be delineated into more specific details. What are the key things I am allowed or not allowed to do? As compared to a more conventional retail business. And, how does the MLM structure fit into those? This is true for any business. |
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WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where you could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! |
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#399 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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Or maybe the "we" refers to the ones treating it as a business.
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The second time I saw the business was something like 14 years ago. I was shown a range of different alternatives. But lets look at what Amway has to show us: http://www.achievemagazine.com/ - that's a link to their magazine. I looked around a bit, but couldn't find anything on being a retail customer or a wholesale price customer. Strangely, based on what you are saying, all the articles seem to be about making money and the people who do. And even stranger than that, the common theme seems to be about having more time to do what they want or spend with their kids. This doesn't sound like what you are describing at all. Should I send them a letter of complaint?[/quote] So let me see .... you want to complain that an internal magazine designed to celebrate achievers is ... celebrating achievers! You find that strange? Really? I've got this really weird book called a dictionary - it gives meanings of words! How strange! ![]()
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The business contract does not allow blanket broadband advertising. If they did then it would significantly change the nature of the business model, and they want to make it as level a playing field for people as they can. As you know, it's not just selling products, it's also about offering people a business opportunity. If Rupert Murdoch could register and spend a billion on advertising that would alter this. ETA: Having said that, I do think they should loosen some of the regulations around this. |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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#400 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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Good enough. How should I describe those who are running scams to distinguish them from those who are not and somehow avoid impugning Amway itself? It sounds like I have been making the error of thinking IBOs are a part of Amway, rather than Amway being a corporation which merely sells stuff to IBOs who may be perpetrating scams.
Would it be proper to say that Amway is ethical, but those who sell Amway products and recruit others to sell the products might very well be con-men? Is it even possible to deal with Amway directly and avoid any chance of being taken advantage of? |
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