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#161 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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Oh I can't wait for you show the math on that. Get $2300 on volume rebates, plus another 30% on retail markup and it works out less!
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Why is that so difficult to accept? |
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#162 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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So why do IBOs get pitched on taking double X? In case you didn't realize this, Kurt Warner is retired from football and going to work as an NFL analyst.
And who says a person cannot simply eat a good diet and not need double x? Why don't former IBOs take these supplements religiously if they are so good and necessary? Seems the vitamins have importance only on the quest towards going diamond. P.S. Amway is still a lousy business opportunity regardless of whether or not double x is worth its weight in gold. |
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#163 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,715
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Really? So IBOs don't sell the toilet paper? Why is it even on the site? Who the heck is buying it? Very interesting . . .
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Similarly, if I say that there is no evidence that Double X is special and you say there is, it's up to you to provide the evidence.
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So if the product is patented, why wouldn't they publish favorable results in a peer-reviewed journal? I can think of several reasons . . .
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#164 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,715
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I don't know. Do you have a problem absorbing vitamin C? Then no, eating more won't help. But if you are "low" because you don't get enough in your diet then sure, an apple will help you get more. But if you eat a balanced diet including plenty of fruits and veggies, there is very little chance you will be low.
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#165 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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Costco.com http://www.costco.com/Common/Search....rch&lang=en-US Charmin Ultra Soft Big Roll Bath Tissue 176 shts 4pk $4.49 |
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#166 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,494
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I'd reply with a giant, bright, red, flashing question mark if I'd knew how. Its their ad, their figures. I assumed a simple mathematical point of view, but now its not true?
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#167 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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So if I had 100 oranges, and I told you I had 100 oranges, and you said I had 50 apples, that would make what I said false?
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#168 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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Sure, if.
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Is it the shape that stops it being food?
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It also isn't remotely what an Amway business like.
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In any case, in Amway there may be people "above" you that make more money than you, there may be people "above" you that make less than you
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#169 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 427
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The UK earnings figures are here UK Disclosure as required by the Courts.
The terms of the UK court case specifically means that tools cannot be sold. I must say that these figures don't encourage me to believe that Amway in the UK is a viable business opportunity. Steve |
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#170 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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No, they just have to be approved and distributed by Amway. Note that the Amway model is a bit different in the UK to the US.
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Note of course that averages are dragged down by new qualifiers at a particular level, who obviously with a new business will usually have lower than average incomes. In none of these statistics is the time factor incorporated. |
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#171 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,317
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Of course calling it part time is silly because you have no stats on how many hours these people work.
And €2664/mth is a pretty crap income. If I'm starting a business it better be generating way more than I can make working a lower middle class job. Otherwise whats the point. |
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#172 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,715
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I would say that most people get enough nutrients in the food they eat. Vegetarians, people on certain diets, people with certain malabsorption conditions -not so much. But the incidence of vitamin and mineral deficiency in modern society is pretty low. In any case, people that need supplements can take a generic multi and it will be just as effective as Double X.
But you said that there was something special about Double X that needed to be explained to people and that was the phytonutrients. First of all, these are available much cheaper in your local supermarket or Wal-Mart. Additionally, there is no evidence that taking them in supplement form will provide any nutritional benefit. So again, I ask, what is so special about Double X that requires an agent to explain? Another question: Who is training these agents; i.e., what makes them expert enough to tell me the benefits of phytonutrients? It seems to me they are just regurgitating Amway's marketing fluff regardless of whether it's true or not. This is not far removed from lying.
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![]() Let's assume it's always food. Let's further assume that nothing essential was lost during the drying, processing and packaging process. For example, what good is 35mg of any food going to do? That's not even a good nibble! It certainly isn't enough to give any of the benefits that you would get from eating, say, a whole actual serving of kale. And, all combined, I'm not even getting a full gram of food from that pill. So the nutritional benefits of that food are going to be pretty close to nil, if not actually nil. So including them in the Double X formulation is nothing but a marketing ploy to make it look like it's including all these wonderful fruits and veggies that are beneficial while in actuality including absolutely nothing.
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You want to make a semantic distinction between an Amway "business" and someone who just joins Amway to get a discount. Fair enough -IF you can provide some hard evidence that most people join only to get a discount. Your insistence that most people don't try to make money is not evidence. I have presented evidence that Amway 1)Pitches an IBO as a legitimate business opportunity, 2)Specifically prohibits pitching IBOs as a buyers club. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to conclude that most people who start an IBO have some expectation of making money. The fact that most people DO NOT make money is evidence that Amway is a poor business opportunity.
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Of course, all of this assumes that I have a downline and they have a downline. In reality, most IBOs don't have a downline nor do they sell any products so the point is really moot.
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Directly under Amway, there are the Founders Crown Ambassadors, the top IBO level. Only .01% of "active" IBOs qualified as Founders Diamond or above so we can make a reasonable guess that FCAs are a much smaller percentage of this number -a handful throughout the world at most. Since everyone in Amway is sponsored by someone else, the sponsorship chain runs down from Amway to the FCAs to the guy who just signed up today. The FCAs make the multi-millions the guy who just signed up today makes zero. So what do the people in-between the FCAs and the guy who signed up today make? Since only .5% of "active" IBOs qualify as Gold or above we can be sure that 99.5% of "active" IBOs make significantly less than $12,303/yr (by definition, inactive IBOs make $0). By simple math, which has been demonstrated earlier, we can make a reasonable guess that the average income for those 99.5% of "active" IBOs below gold must be very close to zero. Now, if you can look at those numbers and find a real business opportunity there, then good luck to you. But I can predict with reasonable certainty, based on the evidence we have, that anyone who starts an Amway business today will make $0 in profit. My reference is Amway's own material. Please tell me exactly how I'm wrong using these or your own references.
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#173 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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I recall many times, our upline would tell us that in order to succeed, you had to eat sleep and crap Amway. In other words, you needed to be doing Amway all the time, save for when you are working your job. Even on a day off, your radar should be on, looking for potental business partners. So the part time deal is bunk. How many diamonds go on stage and talk about the 8 hours a week they spent on their quest. All the diamonds I heard of spoke about the extra time and devotion needed to make it to the next level.
Amway is a poor business opportunity by design. The unfair pyramidal compensation plan. The tool system that doesn't work, but systematically drains IBOs of their resources one function or one standing order at a time. |
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#174 |
Masterblazer
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 6,839
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Me saying that started one of the biggest threads in the whole forum:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=116252 |
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Almo! My Music Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia |
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#175 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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Quote IceraT:
You've provided not a singleI've ignored or dismissed every piece of evidence for any of your claims. If "most" people sign up and do nothing, doesn't that indicate some kind of problem in itself? I have heard of people signing up just to get their friend or cousin off their back about Amway. These folks normally don't complain or ask for their money back. This is something that Icerat claims as evidence that everything is fine in Amwayland. Note: Amway doesn't count the do nothing people when figuring their average IBO income. Since the Amway opportunity is presented as a business opportunity, the only conclusion to make is that people join to make money. Nobody opens a McDonald's to get cheaper burgers. They do it to make some income. Even out of the IBOs who make an effort to profit and sponsor others, even those IBOs have a less than 1% success rate. A REAL businessman wouldn't even consider opening a business with an opportunity with that track record. What Icerat is trying to do is to justify business failures by claiming that the ones who don't/can't sponsor and sell Amway's products are simply part of some buyer's club. The fact is that Amway's products are priced too high (in general) and the justification for IBOs is that the products are special or rare and needs an IBO to explain the special benefits of the product. Or to justify the smaller packages by saying that Amway is concentrated. A simple walk down the aisles of WalMart would put Amway's prices to shame. It's also a wonder why Icerat defends Amway when he himself has not accomplished much in Amway, and by his admission, hasn't really done much about it. |
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#176 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,447
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No one said anything about "volume rebates." Your attempts at obfuscation just make your arguments even less convincing (which, I guess, is quite an accomplishment in itself).
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#177 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,447
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#178 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,715
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From the numbers in the paper, we can see that there were a total of 20,960 ABOs in the UK and Ireland during the last fiscal year. We can also see that:
9,177 (43.78%) of those ABOs made £0. 5,522 (26.35%) made an average of £42. 6,211 (29.63%) made an average of £114 50 (.24%) made an average of £2,300 Which means that the 11733 ABOs below Business Consultant level who got a bonus earned an average of (231,924+708,054)/(11733) = £80.11. The highest earner earned £4200 and the lowest earned £5. Basic math will tell you that the more people at the £4200 end of the scale, the less that can earn the average of £80.11. For example, if the top 50 earners averaged £4000, this would reduce the overall average earnings to £63. If the top 100 earners earned £3000, the average would fall to £55. So the numbers suggest that there are a relative handful of people at the top who make money and the vast majority do not, even though they are active. It's also pretty telling that only 12 new ABOs qualified to be Business Consultants (Platinum level or above in the US) during the last fiscal year. So the numbers that Amway themselves gives us tells us all we need to know about how viable a business opportunity this is. I think you know where I stand . . . |
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#179 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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Ummm, that's what the figure you reported was.
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![]() I'd note though the extreme skepticism to all of Amway's claims except one - when it comes to their use of the term "business owner", where you prefer their marketing screed over, for example the IRS or court statements. |
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#180 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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Why do you think people like myself (I'm registered with Amway in the UK) who don't even have 5 customers and €150 in over a year (and haven't attempted to) should be making money?
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I think you know where I stand on that. |
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#181 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,715
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No. You have it wrong. I am extremely skeptical of Amway's claims of "business ownership." That's what I've spent most of this thread saying. It is not, in actuality, a real "business opportunity," precisely because no one makes any money at it. Therefore, Amway is selling nothing but a pipe dream. I am directly attacking their "marketing screed."
So if they are lying about the opportunity and they are lying about the products what are we left with? One big lie! You see, Amway can't openly admit that most people start an IBO simply as a buyers club. These people don't know anything about how an actual business operates and the IRS makes it clear that they are not actual businesses when they try to claim business expenses. But if Amway openly admits this, then they are basically admitting that they are a pyramid scheme according to the definition set forth in In re Amway. If Amway is a buyers club, this means that no one is following the 10 customer rule or 70% rule. In other words, the "business opportunity" is an artifice to avoid the wrath of the FTC. |
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#182 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,715
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I don't. You haven't demonstrated that most people are like you. Since Amway sells itself as a business opportunity and people aren't allowed to market it as a buyer's club, I tend to think that most people expect to make a little money selling Amway and signing people up as IBOs. I suspect that most people do put some effort into selling product and sponsoring people but quickly find that they can't. I know for a fact that a large percentage of these people are told that "can't" means "won't," sold motivational tapes and seminars to "help" them and are thus sucked into the AMOs (or whatever they call them now).
How do I know this is common? I have the evidence of numerous Tax Court cases where people try to deduct "business expenses" from something that doesn't qualify as a business. I have the many testimonials online. I have personal experience with a group in Texas.
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ETA: I have a friend who got suckered into selling Primerica. She is very earnest in this pursuit; her goal is to make $500/month to supplement her two-income family. She's been at it for about three months and hasn't seen a dime. She is strongly considering dropping it. She made that much simply waiting tables, which was her second job before she got suckered. She feels stupid, but doesn't want to admit that the "friend" that got her involved in Primerica may have led her astray. She blames herself. I wager that most people who start Amway are more like her than you. |
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#183 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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The number of failures alone isn't enough to make the claim scam or "not a business opportunity." I say this because I participate in an online freelance brokered site with hundreds of thousands signed up, but barely 10% making any money at all. The failure rate is tremendous, but it's still an opportunity.
The critical difference between the site I pull about $15G a year from and Amway is that my income is not based on what others do to try and get ahead. I leach no money off anyone else's efforts. The concept of a downline is inherently one of victimization of those beneath you on the pyramid. It is not the same as a wholesale chain, it is fundamentally leveraging the false hopes of others to your advantage. This is where the evil is and this evil is not diluted by the amount of good (if any) brought into the mix. |
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#184 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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#185 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,715
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This is a good point, I think. The stock market isn't "evil" because a lot of people lose their shirts when the market tanks. But Ponzi schemes like Bernie Madoff's are evil because they depend on gaining people's confidence despite the fact that there is nothing but fluff underlying the scheme. That's why these things are called "confidence tricks" or "cons." Amway is not far removed from this.
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#186 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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And yet you insist on analysing statistics with the assumption that all IBOs are operating businesses, contrary to the findings of BERR, FTC, and common sense
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The Commission had described the essential features of an illegal pyramid scheme: Such schemes are characterized by the payment by participants of money to the company in return for which they receive (1) the right to sell a product and (2) the right to receive in return for recruiting other participants into the program rewards which are unrelated to sale of the product to ultimate users. The FTC went on to conclude this does not apply to Amway. The commission in FTC vs Amway was very clear that it understood a lot of volume was from personal consumption, and it's not hidden. Quixtar (and many other MLMs) even pointed it out to the FTC in their response to their proposed business opportunity rule a few years ago - Many customers become distributors in order to purchase products at wholesale prices. These distributors typically do not sponsor other distributors or engage in other business building activities. These distributors may receive ovenides on their personal purchases but are, in reality, consumers rather than business-builders FTC vs Amway, findings - In fiscal 1973/*74 the average BV for each distributor was about $33 a month. (CX 517*F, Z*95) Much of this amount is consumed by the distributors themselves rather than resold. The distributors obtain Amway products with about a 30% discount off the retail price. Many of them consume large amounts of the products every month ... The average Amway distributor sells far less than $200 a month. (Finding 137) The vast majority of Amway distributors are in the business part*-time. Only one in four sponsors other distributors, and many apparently are distributors in order to buy Amway products** at about a 30% discount **which they consume. In the FTC report on it's proposed business opportunity rule - many commenters point out that MLM participants use their membership to purchase products at a discount for their own personal consumption. (one of the sources they reference was Quixtar) In a 2004 official FTC advisory - Much has been made of the personal, or internal, consumption issue in recent years. In fact, the amount of internal consumption in any multi-level compensation business does not determine whether or not the FTC will consider the plan a pyramid scheme
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#187 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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how?
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(I note that your conclusion includes an assumption of "false hope".) I note (again) FTC vs Amway, findings of the commissioner - The Amway system does not create the potential for massive deception present in a pyramid distribution scheme which relies primarily on the profits to be made from recruiting new distributors rather than from ultimate sales to consumers. Unlike the pyramid companies, Amway and its distributors do not make money unless products are sold to consumers. The inherent potential for deception is not present in the Amway plan. In the full context of the plan, it does not have an unlawful capacity to deceive. |
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#188 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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From Wikipedia: In a 1979 ruling,[15][77] the Federal Trade Commission found that Amway does not qualify as a pyramid scheme because distributors were not paid to recruit people and had to sell products to get bonus checks, and the company was committed to buying back its distributors' excess inventory.[78] The FTC did, however, find Amway "guilty of price-fixing and making exaggerated income claims";[79] the company was ordered to stop retail price fixing and allocating customers among distributors and was prohibited from misrepresenting the amount of profit, earnings or sales its distributors are likely to achieve with the business. Amway was ordered to accompany any such statements with the actual averages per distributor, pointing out that more than half of the distributors do not make any money, with the average distributor making less than $100 per month. The order was violated with a 1986 ad campaign, resulting in a $100,000 fine.[80][ |
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#189 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,494
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But that's not what happened. Amway said "we have this much money and this many people" and then you said it wasn't true at all.
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Evasion noted, responding with questions, not answers. Almo made my day by pointing to that thread he started in 2008. Its fun to "see" me! BTW, Icerat's take on the very same arguments is different. Oh well. |
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#190 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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I said no such thing. What I said was it's wrong to assume all of those people are working hard trying to generate significant incomes
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#191 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,447
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Deleted ....
This game is getting tedious. It's no fun any more. :-) -- Roger |
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#192 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,715
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I'm going on the only assumption I can logically make, since Amway forbids marketing it as a Buyers Club and because Amway requires people to run it as a business. Again, just because YOU run it as a discount club doesn't mean that this is the way most people who start an IBO run it.
The facts show (all those tax court cases) that a great deal of people think of it as a business and try to run it as such based on their limited knowledge and get busted by the IRS for trying to deduct business expenses. This is evidence that Amway is not ACTUALLY selling a business opportunity and it knows this.
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#193 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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Amway (or their representatives) does sell itself as a business opportunity. Icerat can claim all he wants that "most" IBOs are actually duscount buyers, but how do we distinguish the two? For one, there are meetings going on all over the US, along with one on one person to person meetings, for the purpose of recruiting others into the Amway business. In the various meetings I witnessed and have heard about from others, it was pitched as a big business opportunity. Just change your buying habits and you can make it big.
There was NO MENTION of joining Amway to make a hundred bucks a month or joining just to get a discount on products. Now I am not saying these people don't exist, but it is very evident that Amway is not pitched that way. In fact, the folks who join just to buy Amway stuff are benign. The REAL SCAM is getting the hopes and dreams of young and/or aspiring people up, and then telling them that "tools are optional, but so is success", and then selling them these tools that produce insignificant results. It's basically a bait and switch scam. You sell hopes and dreams via the Amway business, but the real money is made selling tools to build the Amway business. Since the tools have a higher margin that Amway products, anyone can conclude that there is more profit in tools than in laundry detergent. The fact that Icerat doesn't see this makes me believe that he doesn't want to see this or he is somehow getting benefits to deflect the facts. |
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#194 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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Amway does not require people to run it as a business. Your error there has already been pointed out to you.
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What you are describing is a pyramid scheme. Amway is not a pyramid scheme. You can join tomorrow and make more than anyone "above" you. This isn't even difficult to work out yourself if you bothered to study the compensation plan.
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I'd note that Amway also does an awful lot of product marketing, way way more than it does promoting itself as a business opportunity.
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As the stats I've already provided show, only around 1 in 8 ever sponsor anyone and you really need to sponsor two to make any money this way. If you do not sponsor (wholesale sales) and do not retail (retail sales) there is no way to make money. Only 9% actively retail (BERR vs Amway UK). Only 12.9% sponsor (TEAM vs Quixtar). 60% of volume comes from people not actively retailing (BERR vs Amway UK). Yet you insist all these people, like myself, that are ordering products for themselves, renewing their membership, but neither sponsoring nor retailing are running businesses. Uhuh.
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![]() The sine qua non of a pyramid scheme is being paid for recruiting (Webster v Omnitrition). For you to establish Amway is a pyramid scheme (which means it's illegal) you need to establish that product sales are merely a cover for payment for recruiting. Good luck with that. |
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#195 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
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To be fair, I'd like to point out that tools (at least the inspirational tapes) have a kind of value beyond their ability to generate income. I went through dozens and found them entertaining and motivating. I didn't pay for them, so there's that, but they were at least as interesting as some talk radio stations or good old fashioned fire-and-brimstone preaching.
I remember reading somewhere that the best predictor of whether someone would buy a self-help book was if they had purchased a self-help book in the last six months. This makes me think there's an odd kind of value beyond any real world results. As soon as I could no longer listen for free, I quit listening. For me, there wasn't enough value. Then there's probably some kick people get by feeling they are part of a highly motivated, hard-charging entrepreneurial team... some social value. I didn't get this because I wasn't attracted to the most successful I saw -- in fact, they repelled me. I just wanted to point out that while I've been using money as the sole measurement, there are other things to consider. |
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#196 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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In the US you need 50 PV to earn a bonus.
Amway: Did you have 50 PV IBO: Yes Amway: Okay you get a bonus Amway doesn't enforce the 50 PV rule. An IBO as far as I know, just clicks a box to say they met the 50 PV rule. That's really difficult. ![]() Is there any evidence to suggest that Network 21 IBOs have more sales to non IBOs? *crickets chirping* |
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#197 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,399
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I call BULL on this one. While you can make more than your sponsor, it's because most people, by Icerat's own admission, do nothing or very little. Can Icerat name a single person who's joined and outearned one of the Crown Ambassador Kingpins like Britt, Dornan, or Yager? *crickets chirping*
The reason why diamonds seperate from their beloved "mentors" is because their beloved mentors don't give them a big enough cut from the tools profits. There are lawsuits over these issues and many instances of a diamond breaking away from their former groups. ![]() |
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#198 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sweden
Posts: 5,532
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Probably first worth pointing out that the vast majority of people who register with Amway don't buy any of this stuff, so anyone doing so is already in a minority.
Having said that, I entirely agree. There's also the social aspects - haven't time to dig it up now but there was an academic paper on this aspect of multilevel marketing. It concluded the social/group aspects provide non-monetary value. Over the past decade I've occasionally gone to a seminar purely because I felt I needed the "lift" from the positive atmosphere.
Quote:
The second time I joined was with a different group. Some leaders I admire greatly, others not so much. None repellent fortunately. ![]() |
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available |
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#199 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,715
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Payday loan companies are legalized loansharks.
Amway is a legalized pyramid scheme. Just because it's legal, doesnt mean it's good for you. The FTCs blessing does not make it a great idea. It has been well documented that Amway is a terrible business opportunity, is rife with upper-levels who take advantage of their downlines and has quite ordinary products. If this kind of stuff is for you, then go for it. But I submit that if it was as great as you maintain it is, you would be pursuing it instead of just buying a product here and there. |
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Hello. |
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#200 |
Scholar
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 114
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How can one take such a promise seriously? Earning $100,000 per year, which is already fantastic for someone looking for a job, would not be sufficient for mansions, yachts, etc.
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