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Old 3rd September 2013, 05:40 PM   #321
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I have a cousin who sells (or sold) Amway explicitly as an easy way for her to buy specific products she liked. Sometimes she'd sell products to family or friends who happened to want anything but I don't believe she was actively selling. It's an interesting situation where, for her, the best way to buy a product was to "sell" the product; if their products are as good as some people say they should probably try operating as a real business. Personally I don't like, or trust, sales people and companies like Amway that basically tell people to do that to their friends or families automatically earns my ire.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 05:49 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
I have a cousin who sells (or sold) Amway explicitly as an easy way for her to buy specific products she liked. Sometimes she'd sell products to family or friends who happened to want anything but I don't believe she was actively selling. It's an interesting situation where, for her, the best way to buy a product was to "sell" the product; if their products are as good as some people say they should probably try operating as a real business. Personally I don't like, or trust, sales people and companies like Amway that basically tell people to do that to their friends or families automatically earns my ire.
I believe that the vast majority of the Amway products are either self consumed by the distributors, or sold to sympathetic friends and family members.

In most cases, the Amway products simply are not competitive in price with retailers, not to mention you often need to pay extra for shipping etc.

Without the Amway distributors buying most of the products, Amway's sales would be a small fraction of what it is now.

Amway distributors must use tactics such as citing concentration factors, or subjective claims of superior quality. Some zany ones like Icerat, even go so far as to say Amway toothpaste is a better value because the tube has a smaller hole than some other brands of toothpaste.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 09:26 PM   #323
ChrisBFRPKY
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
You think wrong. First time I joined Amway I was 20, I did nothing but sell the products. Didn't recruit anyone, made a profit.



Suggesting people read a classic book on people skills is "over the top"?

I'd note that Amway runs very very few conventions, mostly for higher achievers. The type of conventions you are likely talking about are by a variety of third party companies, such as that highlighted by dateline above.



Ummm, no. I'm nowhere near a "top" level and you don't make any money at all by signing up "newbies". Zero. Ziltch. As I pointed out, but you apparently ignored since it doesn't fit your world view, the network has had nobody new join it in over a decade. I make money because people are buying products I introduced them to.



Who were the seminars operated by? Unless you were Platinum or higher (which you weren't) then it wasn't Amway. How many seminars have you been to operated by the Muller-Meerkatz WWD organization? Or eFinity? Or Network 21? These are all different, independent, third party companies that offer support services to Amway business owners.



In 10 years of researching and writing about Amway, including attending many seminars with the largest Amway organization in the world, the only people I've ever heard talking about "paying cash for a new home" are rabid critics like yourself.

Never heard it.



Tell me, Chris. What percentage of Amway's revenue comes from new recruits? You clearly think it is the primary revenue driver. Could you give some details?



Amway doesn't make cereal. In some markets they offer products from other companies. Some



Are you aware there's more than one type of toothpaste? Even at Walmart!



Yes, it's based on volume discounting, paid as rebates, you don't get a discount unless you reach certain volume levels. Pretty normal business.



So somebody goes to my personal Amway website and buys a product, and gets it shipped to their home, and that's "difficult to accept"?

Or someone I introduced to Amway products goes to their Amway website and buys stuff, and gets it shipped to their home, and because I have enough people doing this that I qualify for volume rebates on these sales, that's "difficult to accept"?

Apparently you've missed this thing called "the internet".

So, a MLM enterprise that does not require new recruits. That's MLM huh...Are you serious?

And so, you never recruited anyone the "first" time you joined.

Very eloquent, now when you joined the 2nd time or any time after that, did you recruit new members then? I bet you did......... Have you drawn the circles on your dry erase board? I bet you have.

Because that's exactly what you're trying to do here. Promote curiosity. Gain new leads. Sure I know you're trying to promote Amway internet business curiosity. You're also trying to promote the idea that new members do not have to recruit others to be successful. You're forgetting something though, everyone here already knows, Amway is a MLM company. You cannot succeed in MLM without new members being recruited, period.

You're backing away from the conventions again. You're still trying to say I must have been to a third party convention. I'm sure you're not aware of the National Conventions? Like held in St Louis? Ring a bell? I think you do know exactly what I'm talking about. I think you know about the motivational tapes/cd's pushed too. But it seems you don't want everyone to know the type of push promoted. It's high pressure and it's done to pump up new recruits with positive reinforcement. Hitler did something similar with his youth groups.

So you've never heard of anyone in Amway brag about paying cash for a "house".
OK, again very eloquent, so what big ticket items paid in cash have you heard Amway upper levels claim? Any?

Being eloquent with your statements is kinda funny because it shows exactly the type person it takes to succeed in Amway. You don't volunteer any extra info...lol and your eloquence is intended to hide or omit the negative while reinforcing the positive. I can see why you fit into Amway. You'd also be a good reverend if you ever wanted to start your own church.

I can see the status and eloquence you're trying to portray in your posts. Status is useless and regardless what you've been taught at Amway, status isn't worth anything to anyone else except you, within your own mind.

Eloquence is often the tool of politicians. So be prepared to clarify.
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Old 4th September 2013, 12:18 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
So, a MLM enterprise that does not require new recruits. That's MLM huh...Are you serious?
MLM is a strategy. They are direct selling companies. Build a network is inherently little different to any company building a distribution network. Indeed, as found by the FTC nearly 40 years ago - so you must know about it since you're apparently such an expert - Amway distribution networks are similar or more efficient than "traditional" distribution.

Quote:
Very eloquent, now when you joined the 2nd time or any time after that, did you recruit new members then? I bet you did......... Have you drawn the circles on your dry erase board? I bet you have.
Yup, a long time ago. Technology has changed. I'm sure you've noticed.

Quote:
Because that's exactly what you're trying to do here. Promote curiosity. Gain new leads.
ROFLMAO! Seriously?

Quote:
You cannot succeed in MLM without new members being recruited, period.
So that's your response? I must be lying when I said I sold products and made a profit?

Quote:
You're backing away from the conventions again. You're still trying to say I must have been to a third party convention. I'm sure you're not aware of the National Conventions? Like held in St Louis? Ring a bell?
Nope, it doesn't. Amway hasn't run it's own open conventions in the US for I think 30 years. You'd know this if you actually had any experience, so it would appear you don't.

Quote:
I think you do know exactly what I'm talking about. I think you know about the motivational tapes/cd's pushed too. But it seems you don't want everyone to know the type of push promoted. It's high pressure and it's done to pump up new recruits with positive reinforcement. Hitler did something similar with his youth groups.
Oh goodie, Godwin's law. Does that mean I win?

Quote:
So you've never heard of anyone in Amway brag about paying cash for a "house".
OK, again very eloquent, so what big ticket items paid in cash have you heard Amway upper levels claim? Any?
Apart from people like you? None. The people I work with have more class than that. Very tacky if you ask me.
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Old 4th September 2013, 12:20 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
I use their Laundry soap. I prefer it. Wife gets it from a gal she works with, who has had a modest distributorship for over a decade. We used their powdered dish washer soap on trial, and it's OK, but I am not sure it's any better than the other stuff I use.
I'm sorry Darth, but you're in danger of disappearing in a puff of (ill)logic, since everyone knows that Amway customers don't exist.
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Old 4th September 2013, 10:23 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
MLM is a strategy. They are direct selling companies. Build a network is inherently little different to any company building a distribution network. Indeed, as found by the FTC nearly 40 years ago - so you must know about it since you're apparently such an expert - Amway distribution networks are similar or more efficient than "traditional" distribution.
Total BS.
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Old 4th September 2013, 10:28 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
So, a MLM enterprise that does not require new recruits. That's MLM huh...Are you serious?

And so, you never recruited anyone the "first" time you joined.

Very eloquent, now when you joined the 2nd time or any time after that, did you recruit new members then? I bet you did......... Have you drawn the circles on your dry erase board? I bet you have.

Because that's exactly what you're trying to do here. Promote curiosity. Gain new leads. Sure I know you're trying to promote Amway internet business curiosity. You're also trying to promote the idea that new members do not have to recruit others to be successful. You're forgetting something though, everyone here already knows, Amway is a MLM company. You cannot succeed in MLM without new members being recruited, period.

You're backing away from the conventions again. You're still trying to say I must have been to a third party convention. I'm sure you're not aware of the National Conventions? Like held in St Louis? Ring a bell? I think you do know exactly what I'm talking about. I think you know about the motivational tapes/cd's pushed too. But it seems you don't want everyone to know the type of push promoted. It's high pressure and it's done to pump up new recruits with positive reinforcement. Hitler did something similar with his youth groups.

So you've never heard of anyone in Amway brag about paying cash for a "house".
OK, again very eloquent, so what big ticket items paid in cash have you heard Amway upper levels claim? Any?

Being eloquent with your statements is kinda funny because it shows exactly the type person it takes to succeed in Amway. You don't volunteer any extra info...lol and your eloquence is intended to hide or omit the negative while reinforcing the positive. I can see why you fit into Amway. You'd also be a good reverend if you ever wanted to start your own church.

I can see the status and eloquence you're trying to portray in your posts. Status is useless and regardless what you've been taught at Amway, status isn't worth anything to anyone else except you, within your own mind.

Eloquence is often the tool of politicians. So be prepared to clarify.
Good post. Some people suspect that Icerat is paid by Amway to defend or promote them. Icerat claims he is not compensated so your assertion that he is promoting Amway eloquently is very likely on the mark.

Funny how he distances Amway from "third party" companies. These company's sole purpose is to sell (for profits) training and motivational materials to Amway IBO's. These companies would not exist without Amway and they make nice profits even if every single IBO they train ends up losing money.
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Old 5th September 2013, 10:13 PM   #328
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Thanks Joe, Amway conventions are put on by Amway. It makes no difference who owns the building or who organizes the convention for them, it's Amway's convention and they pay the bills and supply the speakers. Amway owns these conventions regardless what anyone tries to say.

"Dream building" sessions, pushing self improvement by purchasing and listening to audio materials over and over of their top levels speaking at conventions about how they made it.

It's an effective brainwashing technique. They'll say "So what's wrong with improving one's self?" Nothing is wrong with improving one's self but there is alot of major wrong with pushing and reprogramming minds to work endless hours for little or no pay on nothing more than hope of realizing their dream. (which was pushed/promoted by Amway)

One of their most important reprogramming tools used are the audio recordings. If one is not building fast enough, the up line starts showing up with fresh tapes/audio. For another "Dream building" session. It's positive reinforcement to get the downline motivated, up and running again, working for little to nothing all for the hope of getting their "dream". (implanted by Amway)

And there are other negative aspects for married couples. For some reason it's pushed that the wife must support her husband without question in everything about "the business". The wife is to be submissive, and that's not equal.

The new recruiting style is to spark curiosity about Amway internet business. To have new leads come to you instead of you out looking in the shopping malls. They have mailing lists and send out bulk emails, post on public forums to instill "curiosity", have websites with products available listed with search engines to gain hits and new leads.

There's nothing new about Amway. Amway is still a soap company that has taken in other vendor's products and services to sell at a wildly overpriced profit. Their customer base is made up almost entirely of their own business owners. The distributors are the end customer.

The only people making a decent living at Amway are the few at the top. Fact. But if for some reason somebody would like to pay routine prices like $10 for a travel size tube of toothpaste (really, that's the Amway price), I'm sure Icerat can fix you right up.
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Old 7th September 2013, 08:41 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
<snip<Some zany ones like Icerat, even go so far as to say Amway toothpaste is a better value because the tube has a smaller hole than some other brands of toothpaste.
Really? I killfiled him as his repetitive, unthinking defense of Amway was simple silly, but that is really off the wall.
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Old 7th September 2013, 10:14 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
But if for some reason somebody would like to pay routine prices like $10 for a travel size tube of toothpaste (really, that's the Amway price), I'm sure Icerat can fix you right up.
I hate to do Icerat's work for him but, in fairness, the price would seem to be $12 for six travel size tubes. Still seems pricey, though.

http://www.amway.com/Shop/Product/Pr...x?itemNo=E3460
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Old 7th September 2013, 02:16 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Thanks Joe, Amway conventions are put on by Amway. It makes no difference who owns the building or who organizes the convention for them, it's Amway's convention and they pay the bills and supply the speakers. Amway owns these conventions regardless what anyone tries to say.
Chris, I've asked you several times for details, which you refuse to provide.

To the best of my knowledge Amway has not held a convention in St Louis - and not paid the bills nor supplied the speakers - in at least 30 years.

If you have other information, please share it.

Quote:
which was pushed/promoted by Amway

One of their most important reprogramming tools used are the audio recordings.
Amway doesn't make tapes either, and hasn't for many decades.

Quote:
And there are other negative aspects for married couples. For some reason it's pushed that the wife must support her husband without question in everything about "the business". The wife is to be submissive, and that's not equal.
ROFLMAO!!!

This is hilarious. Yes, I'm aware some Amway groups went this route. Also known for the so-called "prosperity gospel" and other evangelical christian teachings.

But the idea that a company that is well known and acknowledged for it's role in empowering women through helping them start their own business encouraged this is just absurd.

Their then China CEO Eva Cheng was named one of the world's most powerful women a few years ago.

Amway North America CMO Candace Matthews has been all over the news and places like Forbes talking about her role at Amway.

And you think this is a company that promotes "submissiveness"?

Quote:
The new recruiting style is to spark curiosity about Amway internet business. To have new leads come to you instead of you out looking in the shopping malls. They have mailing lists and send out bulk emails,
A clear violation of Amway's rules. Report them

Quote:
post on public forums to instill "curiosity", have websites with products available listed with search engines to gain hits and new leads.
Are you just making this stuff up for fun, or do you actually believe it?

Quote:
There's nothing new about Amway. Amway is still a soap company
A soap company? I already provided the links showing it's the worlds #1 food supplement company and one of the biggest in the world in skin care and cosmetics.

It hasn't been a "soap company" in many, many years.

Seriously, this post is so full of BS I'm starting to suspect you're nothing but a troll
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Old 7th September 2013, 02:23 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Really? I killfiled him as his repetitive, unthinking defense of Amway was simple silly, but that is really off the wall.
Yeah, like cheaper cost per use has no effect on value

Has anyone mentioned toilet paper yet? It's pretty normal when discussing the world's just vitamin and supplements company, and one of the world's largest skincare and cosmetics companies to talk about the price of toothpaste.

Have you seen the price of a can of coke at the local Toyota dealer? They're such a scam. I've no idea why anyone would want to sell Toyota's, their Coke is so expensive ....

I'm always fascinated by how utterly quickly some people's ability to think and reason just shuts down when it comes to certain topics.

I post citations and links and quote academic papers and professional independent researchers and authors. Joecool and Chris and others like them cite rumour and hearsay and plain old BS ... and I'm the one with the "repetitive, unthinking defense"
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Old 7th September 2013, 02:33 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by 666 View Post
I hate to do Icerat's work for him but, in fairness, the price would seem to be $12 for six travel size tubes. Still seems pricey, though.

http://www.amway.com/Shop/Product/Pr...x?itemNo=E3460
yeah, it's whitening, polishing anti-plaque blah blah blah etc etc etc, so not just your "regular" toothpaste. Some people use bicarb of soda which costs almost nothing. Some people buy Herbal brite which costs nearly 4 times glister at full retail price. Some people buy Colgate Total Advanced Whitening, which at full retail is over a $1/oz (Glister travel size is 87c/oz, normal size is 77c/oz)

Few companies though would say try it, if you don't think it's good value, get all your money back. I took them up on that deal. I like it, I'll keep buying it. You can buy and use whatever you want.
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Old 7th September 2013, 03:30 PM   #334
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Icerat,
I think it should be clear by now that when we say, "Amway is a scam" we are not talking about the corporation as a distinct entity, but about the whole picture - including those who market their own downline and associated activities. If there is scamming going on, Amway may or may not make a buck through the unethical practices, but the taint and miasma is about the whole ecology, not specifically Amway corporate.

If the rebuttal is that independent businesses are going to go "off the reservation" at times, then one has to ask why MLM and Amway attract such people. Are they providing the tent where the carney can ply his trade?

If nothing else, it's guilt by association. For example, if I sell ingredients to homeopaths, wouldn't I be piggybacking on a fraud, even though my part of the scheme is second or third hand? So long as I am aware (or should be) of where the money is generated, I am participating.
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Old 7th September 2013, 04:31 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I'm sorry Darth, but you're in danger of disappearing in a puff of (ill)logic, since everyone knows that Amway customers don't exist.
Oh dear, I'm doomed, but my clothes will be clean.

L.O.C. and the cleaning shoe polish off of the shoe rag, on the other hand, wasn't an impressive sales pitch.
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Old 7th September 2013, 04:55 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Oh dear, I'm doomed, but my clothes will be clean.

L.O.C. and the cleaning shoe polish off of the shoe rag, on the other hand, wasn't an impressive sales pitch.
It probably was in 1959!
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Old 7th September 2013, 05:11 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Icerat,
I think it should be clear by now that when we say, "Amway is a scam" we are not talking about the corporation as a distinct entity, but about the whole picture - including those who market their own downline and associated activities. If there is scamming going on, Amway may or may not make a buck through the unethical practices, but the taint and miasma is about the whole ecology, not specifically Amway corporate.

If the rebuttal is that independent businesses are going to go "off the reservation" at times, then one has to ask why MLM and Amway attract such people. Are they providing the tent where the carney can ply his trade?

If nothing else, it's guilt by association. For example, if I sell ingredients to homeopaths, wouldn't I be piggybacking on a fraud, even though my part of the scheme is second or third hand? So long as I am aware (or should be) of where the money is generated, I am participating.
The thing is marplots, as I pointed out above, independent sources indicate that fraud and misbehaviour is not a significant problem. Should Ford stop selling cars because some car salesmen are unethical?

Now, it is a significant problem in terms of reputation, but I'd argue an enormous amount of that is primarily an internet echo chamber effect. The U of Westminster paper supports this view, commenting that people with poor opinions of the industry appear to have primarily developed it from hearsay.

My research indicates similar effects. Some years back I analysed the published correspondence on an Amway critics website from a 2 year period. Less than a third of the "negative" correspondence was based on primary reporting. Another third was supporting the company. The remainder was people stating things like "I just joined and now read your site so I'm going to quit!" They'd reported no negative experience apart from reading the website - indeed the fact they'd actually joined implies an initial positive experience.

I'd also note that my own positive experience email to the website had not been published, so the site author was definitely not posting all the supportive emails.

Look at the discussion on this thread. ChrisBFRPKY is stating stuff as fact that is just completely false. Now he most likely believes it. He may have even been "in" Amway at some stage, but he's repeating as fact things that are just plain wrong, from his characterization of the seminar setup around Amway through to pricing.

I wonder how many people here have actually tried any Amway products?
How many have been to any Amway-related seminars?
How many have been to ones from different providers?
How many have read any of the independent books or research papers on the company and industry?
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Old 7th September 2013, 06:24 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The thing is marplots, as I pointed out above, independent sources indicate that fraud and misbehaviour is not a significant problem. Should Ford stop selling cars because some car salesmen are unethical?
Well if it's also the case that 90+% of their salesman lose money, then yes, they should.

Quote:
Now, it is a significant problem in terms of reputation, but I'd argue an enormous amount of that is primarily an internet echo chamber effect. The U of Westminster paper supports this view, commenting that people with poor opinions of the industry appear to have primarily developed it from hearsay.
So? That says nothing about the truth of the matter at all.

Quote:
My research indicates similar effects. Some years back I analysed the published correspondence on an Amway critics website from a 2 year period. Less than a third of the "negative" correspondence was based on primary reporting. Another third was supporting the company. The remainder was people stating things like "I just joined and now read your site so I'm going to quit!" They'd reported no negative experience apart from reading the website - indeed the fact they'd actually joined implies an initial positive experience.

I'd also note that my own positive experience email to the website had not been published, so the site author was definitely not posting all the supportive emails.

Look at the discussion on this thread. ChrisBFRPKY is stating stuff as fact that is just completely false. Now he most likely believes it. He may have even been "in" Amway at some stage, but he's repeating as fact things that are just plain wrong, from his characterization of the seminar setup around Amway through to pricing.

I wonder how many people here have actually tried any Amway products?
How many have been to any Amway-related seminars?
How many have been to ones from different providers?
How many have read any of the independent books or research papers on the company and industry?
The seminars teaching the people who join Amway, who almost inevitably don't make any money selling the product, how to sell the product even though they are mostly actually there to buy the product and not to actually sell the product? Those seminars?

It's funny how when one strips out the extraneous stuff the base argument is so poor. Simultaneously arguing mutually exclusive things is usually pretty obvious, even behind a wall of words.
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Old 7th September 2013, 07:40 PM   #339
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icerat, I hope you are a paid shill, because otherwise you have a decidedly unhealthy obsession with Amway, which no one can deny has a less than stellar reputation. And you're defending toothpaste?

It's more than a little weird.
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Old 7th September 2013, 07:56 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The thing is marplots, as I pointed out above, independent sources indicate that fraud and misbehaviour is not a significant problem. Should Ford stop selling cars because some car salesmen are unethical?

Now, it is a significant problem in terms of reputation, but I'd argue an enormous amount of that is primarily an internet echo chamber effect. The U of Westminster paper supports this view, commenting that people with poor opinions of the industry appear to have primarily developed it from hearsay.
But that is the value of hearsay. I do not have to repeat the mistakes of others. Surely you do the same?
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Old 7th September 2013, 10:32 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The thing is marplots, as I pointed out above, independent sources indicate that fraud and misbehaviour is not a significant problem. Should Ford stop selling cars because some car salesmen are unethical?

Now, it is a significant problem in terms of reputation, but I'd argue an enormous amount of that is primarily an internet echo chamber effect. The U of Westminster paper supports this view, commenting that people with poor opinions of the industry appear to have primarily developed it from hearsay.

My research indicates similar effects. Some years back I analysed the published correspondence on an Amway critics website from a 2 year period. Less than a third of the "negative" correspondence was based on primary reporting. Another third was supporting the company. The remainder was people stating things like "I just joined and now read your site so I'm going to quit!" They'd reported no negative experience apart from reading the website - indeed the fact they'd actually joined implies an initial positive experience.

I'd also note that my own positive experience email to the website had not been published, so the site author was definitely not posting all the supportive emails.

Look at the discussion on this thread. ChrisBFRPKY is stating stuff as fact that is just completely false. Now he most likely believes it. He may have even been "in" Amway at some stage, but he's repeating as fact things that are just plain wrong, from his characterization of the seminar setup around Amway through to pricing.

I wonder how many people here have actually tried any Amway products?
How many have been to any Amway-related seminars?
How many have been to ones from different providers?
How many have read any of the independent books or research papers on the company and industry?
Everything I have said is accurate. Given, I may have been wrong about the current price of a travel size Amway toothpaste, it's actually $12 instead of the $10 I had guessed.:
http://www.amway.com/Shop/Product/Pr...pwsID=healthy7

Now, has anyone heard of a web site called Reputation.com? That's a place that businesses like Amway hire to go on forums and elsewhere online to protect their reputations. That's why so many youtube videos get pulled. It's done by people like Icerat.

Exactly what point have I made about Amway that is a lie? Name one please and I'll be happy to respond.
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Old 7th September 2013, 11:12 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Chris, I've asked you several times for details, which you refuse to provide.

To the best of my knowledge Amway has not held a convention in St Louis - and not paid the bills nor supplied the speakers - in at least 30 years.

If you have other information, please share it.



Amway doesn't make tapes either, and hasn't for many decades.



ROFLMAO!!!

This is hilarious. Yes, I'm aware some Amway groups went this route. Also known for the so-called "prosperity gospel" and other evangelical christian teachings.

But the idea that a company that is well known and acknowledged for it's role in empowering women through helping them start their own business encouraged this is just absurd.

Their then China CEO Eva Cheng was named one of the world's most powerful women a few years ago.

Amway North America CMO Candace Matthews has been all over the news and places like Forbes talking about her role at Amway.

And you think this is a company that promotes "submissiveness"?



A clear violation of Amway's rules. Report them



Are you just making this stuff up for fun, or do you actually believe it?



A soap company? I already provided the links showing it's the worlds #1 food supplement company and one of the biggest in the world in skin care and cosmetics.

It hasn't been a "soap company" in many, many years.

Seriously, this post is so full of BS I'm starting to suspect you're nothing but a troll
What details have you asked me to provide? Anything relevant? Have you ever been to an Amway convention? How many? Did you hear anyone talk about getting a "dream"? Or "Dream building"?

Where do the books and tapes, boards, easels, erasers and markers come from? Magic? I'm looking at an old tape now. It says clearly "CONTINUING DISTRIBUTOR EDUCATION" The title is "Cha-Ching Cha-Ching Denny & Laurie Plauck"

Here's a good read on the tapes as well:
http://marriedtoanambot.blogspot.com...s-and-cds.html

These materials are purchased from Amway. The price and product list is separate from their catalogs. The products are designed for Amway "CONTINUING DISTRIBUTOR EDUCATION" Fact. Any attempts to distance themselves from their own program of continuing distributor education is useless. It makes no difference WHO makes the tapes. The tapes are being made FOR Amway and distributed by Amway period.



"To the best of my knowledge" at the beginning of your statement is all telling about everything you say after. That means you can say whatever you want, to include lying, and still have a backdoor when proven wrong. Eloquent but telling.

Yes, Amway promotes wives being submissive to their husband. It promotes single women to empower themselves but married women are to be submissive to their husbands. Yep.

Amway is a soap company. I realize you are supposed to emphasize they have many many more products now. But, those products are made by other companies, Amway sells those products as well as the soap.
I'm surprised you didn't use the analogy about Sears. "You ever heard of Sears? They started out as a pocket watch company." That was a widely used comparison to get people away from Amway the soap company. But, Amway is still just a soap company that added a bunch of products made by other companies. Once again Amway=Soap and products obtained from other companies.

Once again, Amway is a scam with the reputation of creating it's own consumers in the form of distributors.

Added info: I forgot to mention the tapes were made by "Internet Services Corporation U.S.A." Yager Enterprises. Anyone ever hear of Dexter Yager? Yep Amway top level.

Last edited by ChrisBFRPKY; 7th September 2013 at 11:33 PM. Reason: added info
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Old 7th September 2013, 11:55 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yeah, like cheaper cost per use has no effect on value

Has anyone mentioned toilet paper yet? It's pretty normal when discussing the world's just vitamin and supplements company, and one of the world's largest skincare and cosmetics companies to talk about the price of toothpaste.

Have you seen the price of a can of coke at the local Toyota dealer? They're such a scam. I've no idea why anyone would want to sell Toyota's, their Coke is so expensive ....

I'm always fascinated by how utterly quickly some people's ability to think and reason just shuts down when it comes to certain topics.

I post citations and links and quote academic papers and professional independent researchers and authors. Joecool and Chris and others like them cite rumour and hearsay and plain old BS ... and I'm the one with the "repetitive, unthinking defense"
I cite no rumor, I have been in the Amway business and I know the scam very well inside and out. That's no BS. I also know the tricks you are trying to use to instill curiosity. It's very easy to see, otherwise you would have left by now.
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Old 8th September 2013, 02:20 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
What details have you asked me to provide?
I asked what organisation you were affiliated with.

Quote:
Anything relevant? Have you ever been to an Amway convention?
I'm 100% certain you're not talking about Amway conventions. You're talking about 3rd party conventions run by companies like Internet Services, BWW, WWDB, Albora, Equipo Vision, Crador, Network 21 eFinity etc etc

Quote:
How many? Did you hear anyone talk about getting a "dream"? Or "Dream building"?
But I'll answer your question as you've asked it. I've been to two seminars hosted by Amway. It was very dry, no hype. Great info on the products. I don't think "dream" was ever mentioned

Quote:
Where do the books and tapes, boards, easels, erasers and markers come from? Magic? I'm looking at an old tape now. It says clearly "CONTINUING DISTRIBUTOR EDUCATION" The title is "Cha-Ching Cha-Ching Denny & Laurie Plauck"
And it doesn't say "manufactured by Amway" or similar anywhere on it does it? Dennis & Laurie Plauck were affiliated with a group called Team In Focus who were kicked out of Amway more than a decade ago. Earlier they were affiliated with Yager's Internet Services.

Quote:
These materials are purchased from Amway. The price and product list is separate from their catalogs. The products are designed for Amway "CONTINUING DISTRIBUTOR EDUCATION" Fact.
False. They were not purchased from Amway and not distributed by Amway.

Quote:
Yes, Amway promotes wives being submissive to their husband. It promotes single women to empower themselves but married women are to be submissive to their husbands. Yep.
False. Some Amway groups have been known to do this. (no idea if they still do) Amway does not. I'd have nothing to do with them if they did.

Quote:
Amway is a soap company.
False. Amway's sales in 2012 exceeded $12 billion, of which 46% were in the Nutrition field and 26% in Beauty.

Quote:
I realize you are supposed to emphasize they have many many more products now. But, those products are made by other companies, Amway sells those products as well as the soap.
The Nutrilite and Artistry products are both owned and manufactured by Amway.

Quote:
Added info: I forgot to mention the tapes were made by "Internet Services Corporation U.S.A." Yager Enterprises. Anyone ever hear of Dexter Yager? Yep Amway top level.
So you spend all this effort trying to tell me they're made by Amway, and now you point out they are not! Yager is an independent Amway contractor. He founded an entirely separate company that produces business support materials and services for Amway distributors. He sells those products both to people in his own Amway group as well as in other people's Amway groups. Some people in his own Amway group use other providers and not his.

Not made by Amway, not sold by Amway, not distributed by Amway. No money from the sale of them goes to Amway or any of Amway's owners.
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Old 8th September 2013, 03:25 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Not made by Amway, not sold by Amway, not distributed by Amway. No money from the sale of them goes to Amway or any of Amway's owners.

Just keep repeating it--"Not Amway, not Amway, not Amway," and all the bad will all go away...
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Old 8th September 2013, 07:48 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Were these sales as stock for distributors (who may not have been able to move them) or sales as a purchase by non-distributors (who actually intended to use them)?

If I and many other distributors each buy a million cans of Coca Cola and we don't plan on drinking them ourselves and nobody buys them from us then the statistic from Coca Cola that they sold millions of cans of Coca Cola is misleading. Unless us distributors are crazy, we're going to stop buying millions of cans of Coca Cola and Coca Cola is going to go out of business despite having sold millions of cans of Coca Cola.
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Old 8th September 2013, 10:26 PM   #347
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Oh wow. Did Icerat just claim Dexter Yager, the "Founders Crown Ambassador" is not in Amway? I was in his downline.
Materials to show the Amway plan are not sold thru Amway distributors to new Amway distributors? Where did they get these items? Office Depot? Will we find Amway promotional tools at Staples? Motivational books and tapes labelled "CONTINUING DISTRIBUTOR EDUCATION" are not and have not ever been sold by or to Amway distributors? You have got to be desperate to deny Dexter Yager. It's Dexter Yager yep the Dexter Yager "Founders Crown Ambassador" of Amway.

Amway conventions are not Amway? Who do these conventions promote? Chevrolet?
Amway is now a soap, vitamin and cosmetics company. I'll lightly take your word on that one as Amway may have built or bought a cosmetics company since I was in. And they also have tons of products from other vendors .

You can't polish a turd. Amway's end product consumers are their distributors. The only way to move up is to recruit a downline so you can reap some of their profits of product sales.
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Old 8th September 2013, 11:18 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I'm sorry Darth, but you're in danger of disappearing in a puff of (ill)logic, since everyone knows that Amway customers don't exist.
Nobody said that as far as I followed this thread. What was said is that the majority (not 100% but over 50%) of amway distributor are their own consumer, or their family/friends.

From my very limited experience, that is indeed the case.
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Old 8th September 2013, 11:34 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Nobody said that as far as I followed this thread. What was said is that the majority (not 100% but over 50%) of amway distributor are their own consumer, or their family/friends.

From my very limited experience, that is indeed the case.

I actually enjoy the logic of it. If you are selling this stuff to others (or trying to), shouldn't you use the products yourself?

Very hard to overcome that.
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Old 9th September 2013, 12:12 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
Were these sales as stock for distributors (who may not have been able to move them) or sales as a purchase by non-distributors (who actually intended to use them)?
False dichotomy.

They were sales to end-users, who may or may not be distributors. Purchasing large stocks for inventory is a contract violation (and stupid). Typically orders are fulfilled on demand. It's extremely rare to order products without having received an order.

The question of inventory loading was one of the main focuses of investigation in FTC vs Amway. The judge found it was not an issue and dismissed the allegation.

Quote:
If I and many other distributors each buy a million cans of Coca Cola and we don't plan on drinking them ourselves and nobody buys them from us then the statistic from Coca Cola that they sold millions of cans of Coca Cola is misleading. Unless us distributors are crazy, we're going to stop buying millions of cans of Coca Cola and Coca Cola is going to go out of business despite having sold millions of cans of Coca Cola.
Yup. And pretty quickly.

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Oh wow. Did Icerat just claim Dexter Yager, the "Founders Crown Ambassador" is not in Amway? I was in his downline.
Do you not understand the difference between an employee and an independent contractor?

Quote:
Materials to show the Amway plan are not sold thru Amway distributors to new Amway distributors?
They may be, but they're not sold by Amway.

Quote:
Where did they get these items? Office Depot?
In your case, a company called Internet Services. You said so yourself.

Quote:
Amway conventions are not Amway? Who do these conventions promote? Chevrolet?
Amway is now a soap, vitamin and cosmetics company. I'll lightly take your word on that one as Amway may have built or bought a cosmetics company since I was in. And they also have tons of products from other vendors.
Amway launched the Artistry brand in 1968. How long ago were you "in" exactly?

Amway North America has quite a few third party products, it's less common elsewhere, though there is usually some.

Quote:
Amway's end product consumers are their distributors.
Yes, a significant portion of Amway's consumers are purchased by people who are registered as distributors. Many remain registered as a way to get the products at distributor pricing.

This isn't a secret and was acknowledged in FTC vs Amway back in the 70s. It was not considered an issue. For some reason "critics" think it's a major problem.

Quote:
The only way to move up is to recruit a downline so you can reap some of their profits of product sales.
Then how did I profit without recruiting anyone? Magic pixie dust?
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Old 9th September 2013, 12:26 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Nobody said that as far as I followed this thread. What was said is that the majority (not 100% but over 50%) of amway distributor are their own consumer, or their family/friends.

From my very limited experience, that is indeed the case.
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I actually enjoy the logic of it. If you are selling this stuff to others (or trying to), shouldn't you use the products yourself?

Very hard to overcome that.
Yup, and as I noted above, a majority of people registered as Amway distributors are not actually operating as Amway distributors. This was established in both FTC vs Amway and BERR vs Amway UK. The FTC clarified this again in 2004. Peterson and Albaum (2007) also looked at this in On the Ethicality of Internal Consumption in Multilevel Marketing, stating -

There does not seem to be anything inherently unethical
about employees purchasing products or services from their
employer at a discount and personally consuming them. Similarly,
there does not seem to be anything inherently unethical
about distributors in an MLM organization purchasing the
MLM firmís products or services at a discount and personally
consuming them. In both situations, individuals have the
opportunity to purchase products or services at less than the
suggested retail price, and in both situations the individuals
can choose to make or not make such purchases.
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Old 9th September 2013, 01:34 AM   #352
marplots
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
(some snipped)

Peterson and Albaum (2007) also looked at this in On the Ethicality of Internal Consumption in Multilevel Marketing, stating -

There does not seem to be anything inherently unethical
about employees purchasing products or services from their
employer at a discount and personally consuming them. Similarly,
there does not seem to be anything inherently unethical
about distributors in an MLM organization purchasing the
MLM firmís products or services at a discount and personally
consuming them. In both situations, individuals have the
opportunity to purchase products or services at less than the
suggested retail price, and in both situations the individuals
can choose to make or not make such purchases.
That was published in the Journal of Personal Selling and Sales Management, a publication I had not been previously acquainted with.

They state, in the preamble:
"The paper documents that internal consumption is a common, widespread phenomenon found in all types of firms and that criticism of this aspect of multilevel marketing as being unethical and fraudulent is misplaced."

Do you agree with this?
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Old 9th September 2013, 03:10 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
That was published in the Journal of Personal Selling and Sales Management, a publication I had not been previously acquainted with.
I'm sure there are many journals you're not personally acquainted with.

Quote:
They state, in the preamble:
"The paper documents that internal consumption is a common, widespread phenomenon found in all types of firms and that criticism of this aspect of multilevel marketing as being unethical and fraudulent is misplaced."

Do you agree with this?
Don't you? Withdrawal of inventory for personal use is common in traditional businesses, as are employee discounts. They document examples, including results from two surveys, in the paper.
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Old 9th September 2013, 03:26 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I'm sure there are many journals you're not personally acquainted with.
Quite true.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Don't you? Withdrawal of inventory for personal use is common in traditional businesses, as are employee discounts. They document examples, including results from two surveys, in the paper.
A few nuances come into play.
First, am I an employee or an IBO?
Second, what percentage of personal purchases would distinguish an employee discount from just buying wholesale for yourself as a matter of course? Surely it would be a very, very small portion of overall sales?
Third, the "found in all types of firms" bit. Certainly I wouldn't expect it in a firm that doesn't sell retail merchandise. For example, I own a business that sells a service. I do not sell to myself at a discount.

For an MLM, the difficulty comes in because sales to oneself count as sales. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Amway have a mechanism to track how much merchandise is consumed by distributors and how much to the general public? And here I mean some mechanism they trust, such as filled out warranty cards.

On another note, what's the deal with sales taxes now? Do MLM's collect them?

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Old 9th September 2013, 03:56 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Quite true.
A few nuances come into play.
First, am I an employee or an IBO?
It's the critics who want to treat IBOs as if they were akin to employees when addressing internal consumption. As far as I'm concerned they're retail customers when purchasing for personal use and wholesale customers when purchasing for resale.

ie standard business definitions.

Quote:
Second, what percentage of personal purchases would distinguish an employee discount from just buying wholesale for yourself as a matter of course? Surely it would be a very, very small portion of overall sales?
"buying wholesale for yourself" is an unclear statement, since a wholesale purchase is in business a purchase for resale. I assume you mean "buying at wholesale price for yourself" which is often shortened to "buying at wholesale" in general use.

I'm not sure the distinction particular matters. They both result in sales to "ultimate users" which is what matters ethically and legally.

The "critics" perspective (and it's evident on this thread) is that the products are prime facie worthless or otherwise unsellable.

They therefore assume that any "internal consumption" purchases are illegitimate demand, and if this is true then you have a "product based pyramid". This issue is addressed in the FTC Staff Advisory Letter I linked to earlier.

If you simply change your assumption and consider the possibility that distributors are purchasing primarily out of legitimate demand and their criticisms of MLM as pyramid scheme fall apart.

Quote:
Third, the "found in all types of firms" bit. Certainly I wouldn't expect it in a firm that doesn't sell retail merchandise. For example, I own a business that sells a service. I do not sell to myself at a discount.
I used to sell web hosting services. I sold to myself at a discount, my agents also got discount rates for their own hosting.

Quote:
For an MLM, the difficulty comes in because sales to oneself count as sales.
Why is it a difficulty?

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Amway have a mechanism to track how much merchandise is consumed by distributors and how much to the general public?
Of interest, court precedent in the UK (no idea in the US) is that distributors, as independent contractors are part of the general public. An MLM (L'Arome) closed down after being sued for using competitors trademark in "internally used" pamphlets. The court ruled that by supplying these pamphlets to their distributors they were distributing them to the general public in violation of trademark law.

Quote:
And here I mean some mechanism they trust, such as filled out warranty cards.
Most products are FMCG, so no warranty cards. In the US Amway requires distributors to certify they have 50 points in non-distributor retail sales every month or they won't receive commissions on downline orders. This is monitored by registering customers (including contact details) and their orders. Amway can also track customers who order themselves from the Amway website, but this is typically only a small portion of retail customer sales, most being handled personally by distributors.

There is no way for Amway to know if distributors have sales in excess of the 50PV required as they do not need to register them and it's effectively unnecessary extra work (though I think still a good idea). In Europe and many other markets there is no requirement for customer sales and no tracking.

It's worth noting that in FTC vs Amway, which cleared Amway of pyramid allegations, inventory loading etc, they were found guilty (and fined) for price fixing when they tracked osentsibly independent distributor retail customer sales too closely, as the court judged this imposed pressure on distributors to sell at the recommended retail price and not discount. So Amway legal is a little leery of of retail monitoring.

Quote:
On another note, what's the deal with sales taxes now? Do MLM's collect them?
They pretty much always have, which is sensible since a large portion of purchases by registered distributors are for personal use. Those actually reselling are responsible for handling the accounting and refunds etc according to local laws.
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Old 9th September 2013, 10:05 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
(some snipped)
I'm not sure the distinction particular matters. They both result in sales to "ultimate users" which is what matters ethically and legally.
Here is the nut of our disagreement. In my view, it is unethical to represent sales to oneself as "business volume" because the term generally implies there is profit being made. Certainly, if I were solely buying for personal use, I shouldn't be counted as either a business person or an IBO. One does not describe a membership in a buying club as a "business." However, for statistical purposes, you've said Amway cannot distinguish the two.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The "critics" perspective (and it's evident on this thread) is that the products are prime facie worthless or otherwise unsellable.
Possibly. But it doesn't matter if they are quality or not if they are not being resold anyhow.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
(They therefore assume that any "internal consumption" purchases are illegitimate demand, and if this is true then you have a "product based pyramid". This issue is addressed in the FTC Staff Advisory Letter I linked to earlier.
Indeed. Product based pyramid might be too strong, but "enterprise which doesn't generate profit" might fit.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
(If you simply change your assumption and consider the possibility that distributors are purchasing primarily out of legitimate demand and their criticisms of MLM as pyramid scheme fall apart.
The flaw in that statement is built into the word "distributors." Distributors distribute, consumers consume.
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Old 9th September 2013, 11:21 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It's the critics who want to treat IBOs as if they were akin to employees when addressing internal consumption. As far as I'm concerned they're retail customers when purchasing for personal use and wholesale customers when purchasing for resale.
No matter how you slice and dice it, if a majority of products are consumed by the sales force, it's basically a scam. The money (profits) is not being made from sales to real customers but from the sales force. It may not be illegal but it can still be a scam. I wonder how loyal the sales force is to those MLM products once they stop chasing the MLM dream.

Amway conveniently distances themselves from their sales force by creating that "independent" status. Thus it is true that "Amway" didn't trick someone into attending a meeting and "Amway" didn't scam anyone into buying useless tools and seminars. However, Amway distributors/leaders who are representing the Amway name are. For that reason, Amway has a questionable reputation, at least in the US for sure.

That is the crux of Icerat's defense summed up in a nutshell.

Even if Amway the corporation isn't doing it, the result is the same. People getting tricked into meetings and nearly 100% of people who sign up make nothing or lose money. The ones who buy tools usually suffering the biggest losses.
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Old 9th September 2013, 12:20 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Here is the nut of our disagreement. In my view, it is unethical to represent sales to oneself as "business volume" because the term generally implies there is profit being made.
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here? The BV (business volume) figure is used for calculating rebates. You may not be operating a business, but someone associated with it is, most certainly Amway is. Are you suggesting Amway needs to rename it's points every time someone purchases something, depending on whether they intend to use it personal or resell it?

Quote:
Certainly, if I were solely buying for personal use, I shouldn't be counted as either a business person or an IBO. One does not describe a membership in a buying club as a "business." However, for statistical purposes, you've said Amway cannot distinguish the two.
And what if I decide to treat it as a business this month, but not next month?

I seriously don't get the aversion to the option of being either. I've had critics numerous times say "you can't be a buying club and a business opportunity!"

Well, why not?

Amway offers a business opportunity, signing the contract gives you the right to operate an Amway business. It doesn't mean you are operating a business. Ask the IRS, who has successfully pursued several Amway "distributors" for claiming business expenses when they weren't operating a business.

Quote:
Possibly. But it doesn't matter if they are quality or not if they are not being resold anyhow.
First of all, any downline volume is a resale - to a downline. This used to happen explicitly with only "direct distributors" actually purchasing from Amway. Thankfully Amway handles the logistics nowadays.

Secondly, yes it does matter. Big time. Products have to have a legitimate market. Things like Zeek Rewards and Burn Lounge did not have a legitimate market.

Quote:
Indeed. Product based pyramid might be too strong, but "enterprise which doesn't generate profit" might fit.
Product based pyramids generate a lot of profit - but illegally and unethically.

Quote:
The flaw in that statement is built into the word "distributors." Distributors distribute, consumers consume.
I'm using the term out of convenience. Amway uses all sorts of different terms, Independent Business Owner, Amway Business Owner, Amway Independent Entrepreneur, Distributor, Member, Member+ and others I'm unaware of. Do wholesalers generally account for whether the products their customers buy are for personal or "internal" use or resold to someone else?

No, they don't. (outside of more general market research)

Don't you think it's a bit silly though? This idea that Amway gets to decide if you're operating a business or not, just by the terms they choose to use?

Some people tried that with the IRS. It (rightly) isn't so.
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Old 9th September 2013, 04:35 PM   #359
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Amway is a business. They generate a profit. I daresay they would be aghast at any suggestion they quit selling to others and just use all that stuff themselves.

There might be a description missing in their synonym list for IBO - viable business.

Wouldn't it be great if everyone who showed up at the unemployment office could be given an Amway starter pack and sent off to enjoy running their new profit generating enterprise? We'd drop the unemployment rate considerably.
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Old 9th September 2013, 06:59 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by AdMan View Post
icerat, I hope you are a paid shill, because otherwise you have a decidedly unhealthy obsession with Amway, which no one can deny has a less than stellar reputation. And you're defending toothpaste?

It's more than a little weird.
Not sure if Icerat is currently doing this but he had started a reputation management business.

http://network21amway.blogspot.com/2...out-amway.html

Quote:
"Reputation management in the Internet Age"
"TribeTech provides professional internet community development, monitoring, reputation research and crisis response services"
"Whether you like it or not, you and your company are being discussed on the Internet. With our unique cross-discipline experience in internet technologies, public relations, social media, and marketing we can help you build a positive brand presence on the internet, and in the marketplace.
• THREAT ANALYSIS
• CRISIS RESPONSE
• SEARCH ENGINE OPTIMIZATION
• MARKET RESEARCH
• COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT
• SOCIAL MEDIA ENGAGEMENT
• REPUTATION MANAGEMENT
• STRATEGIC INFLUENCE"

Funny, isn't that the description of exactly what he is already doing for Amway with his websites, even if "hobby" level? That many sites pushing a positive Amway point of view by definition surely must be "reputation management" even if you wern't being paid cash. The content on those public relations service websites is clear admission and evidence he runs a website with a public relations reputation manager theme, they content boasts "experience" in the field, and implies they had intentions to enable his effort and services to be bought to fix companies public relations / reputation.
Not sure his defense of Amway has helped much though. Some think Icerat has done more harm than good with his efforts.

Last edited by Joecool; 9th September 2013 at 07:00 PM.
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