ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 5th August 2018, 07:51 AM   #1
Jerrymander
Critical Thinker
 
Jerrymander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 390
Modern day Luddites?

America's economy is becoming more and more reliant on skilled labor while using robots and automation for manual tasks. Yet, many people are wishing that the economy should go back to the 1950s in that regard, demanded more manual manufacturing jobs. Are Trumpists or even Berine Sanders-types, the new Luddites?
Jerrymander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 08:53 AM   #2
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 13,395
If the alternative is to be thrown on the economic scrap heap and fight for one of a dwindling number of menial jobs while machines do the work I was trained for then I think that "Luddite" would be the way to go.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 08:56 AM   #3
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,022
Far too many people assumed either

A) We'd somehow magically jump straight to a post job utopia with no transition period

B) They'd be assured to be one of the ones with a job while the transition was occurring.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 05:22 PM   #4
Jerrymander
Critical Thinker
 
Jerrymander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If the alternative is to be thrown on the economic scrap heap and fight for one of a dwindling number of menial jobs while machines do the work I was trained for then I think that "Luddite" would be the way to go.
So no technological innovation? maybe we should go back to an agrarian economy. That would open up more menial jobs.
Jerrymander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 05:24 PM   #5
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,941
Trump fits the bill. Not sure where/how you see Sanders being against tech progress.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 06:57 PM   #6
wasapi
Philosopher
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,327
I have a friend, 78, who has never owned or operated a cell phone or computer. Never used one out of "defiance" and "hatred of technology".


So, does he qualify?
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 07:24 PM   #7
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,883
Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
America's economy is becoming more and more reliant on skilled labor while using robots and automation for manual tasks. Yet, many people are wishing that the economy should go back to the 1950s in that regard, demanded more manual manufacturing jobs. Are Trumpists or even Berine Sanders-types, the new Luddites?

I doubt anybody has thought it through. They just know that their job might disappear.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 07:44 PM   #8
AlaskaBushPilot
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,010
Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
America's economy is becoming more and more reliant on skilled labor while using robots and automation for manual tasks. Yet, many people are wishing that the economy should go back to the 1950s in that regard, demanded more manual manufacturing jobs. Are Trumpists or even Berine Sanders-types, the new Luddites?
This seems so perfect an example of argument by label. "Trumpists and Berniecrats are Luddites".

It isn't an argument now, is it? Skilled labor used machines in the 1950's and they use machines now. Labor has been doing that for oh, about half a millenia.

Nobody is smashing machines, my God what a stupid and utterly backwards label.

I was an early Trump critic right here for his statements on torture and seizing oil from Middle Eastern countries. The Democrats put up the worst candidate in my lifetime and stole the primary from Bernie Sanders, who was head-to-head doing much better in polling against Trump.

Labor had a lot to do with that. Because the Democrats sold out to all the global billionare special status trade agreements.

All the way to the general election I could not believe my eyes that the argument by the Democrats was "label, label, label, label... Racist, Sexist, Mysogynist, homophobe" etc.

And here after not learning their lesson after historic wipe-outs in the presidency, the house, the senate, governorships and state houses, all the appointed judges and etc.

It is still label, label, label. With no attachment to reality. Luddites smashed machines. Labor today has no animus to machines. Where are you getting such a ridiculous idea? I mean the idea that people are so stupid they are going to buy into this incessant droning on with ad hominens?

My best buddy from High School has been an engineer on the Rock Island Railroad sitting on top of 18,000 horsepower for 40 years now. He voted for Trump, despite a lifetime committment to Democrats as Union Labor.

Just keep calling those kind of people stupid, backwards, and dangerous. Again, I cannot believe my eyes as we roll into this election that the democrats have the same failed strategy again!! Label, label, label.
AlaskaBushPilot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 07:49 PM   #9
Norman Alexander
Illuminator
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,240
Isn't labelling Democrats as "labellers" exactly what you are arguing against?
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 08:04 PM   #10
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 13,395
Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
So no technological innovation? maybe we should go back to an agrarian economy. That would open up more menial jobs.
So, **** the workers! Let machines take the jobs away.

Or are you arguing that the magic job fairy will rain down all these new high paying jobs to replace those lost to machines.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 08:12 PM   #11
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,941
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So, **** the workers! Let machines take the jobs away.
...
Personally, I got no problem with that. We should be publicly funding job retraining, there are always other things that need workers.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 08:36 PM   #12
Jerrymander
Critical Thinker
 
Jerrymander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So, **** the workers! Let machines take the jobs away.

Or are you arguing that the magic job fairy will rain down all these new high paying jobs to replace those lost to machines.
I asked you first. Should we just get rid of more machines so more people will have work?
Jerrymander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 08:42 PM   #13
Jerrymander
Critical Thinker
 
Jerrymander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
This seems so perfect an example of argument by label. "Trumpists and Berniecrats are Luddites".

It isn't an argument now, is it? Skilled labor used machines in the 1950's and they use machines now. Labor has been doing that for oh, about half a millenia.

Nobody is smashing machines, my God what a stupid and utterly backwards label.

I was an early Trump critic right here for his statements on torture and seizing oil from Middle Eastern countries. The Democrats put up the worst candidate in my lifetime and stole the primary from Bernie Sanders, who was head-to-head doing much better in polling against Trump.

Labor had a lot to do with that. Because the Democrats sold out to all the global billionare special status trade agreements.

All the way to the general election I could not believe my eyes that the argument by the Democrats was "label, label, label, label... Racist, Sexist, Mysogynist, homophobe" etc.

And here after not learning their lesson after historic wipe-outs in the presidency, the house, the senate, governorships and state houses, all the appointed judges and etc.

It is still label, label, label. With no attachment to reality. Luddites smashed machines. Labor today has no animus to machines. Where are you getting such a ridiculous idea? I mean the idea that people are so stupid they are going to buy into this incessant droning on with ad hominens?

My best buddy from High School has been an engineer on the Rock Island Railroad sitting on top of 18,000 horsepower for 40 years now. He voted for Trump, despite a lifetime committment to Democrats as Union Labor.

Just keep calling those kind of people stupid, backwards, and dangerous. Again, I cannot believe my eyes as we roll into this election that the democrats have the same failed strategy again!! Label, label, label.
Your whole post illustrates a point I made on another tread. Trump conservatives talk about being anti-PC and accuse other people of being too sensitive and yet whether they are "labelled" they go into angry rants about how those evil liberal elites are mean to them.
Jerrymander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 09:05 PM   #14
Norman Alexander
Illuminator
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Your whole post illustrates a point I made on another tread. Trump conservatives talk about being anti-PC and accuse other people of being too sensitive and yet whether they are "labelled" they go into angry rants about how those evil liberal elites are mean to them.
...by labelling them.

Feel the burn!

Sheesh.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 09:35 PM   #15
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,825
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Far too many people assumed either

A) We'd somehow magically jump straight to a post job utopia with no transition period

B) They'd be assured to be one of the ones with a job while the transition was occurring.
It always amazes me that this kind of talk is going on in the midst of the lowest unemployment rates in decades. Despair springs eternal, I suppose.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2018, 11:12 PM   #16
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,376
Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I have a friend, 78, who has never owned or operated a cell phone......
You have a co-forumite who is the same. I've never owned one, have used one only 3 or 4 times, and certainly don't have (or ever intend to have) a smart phone. I don't need one (there's a phone on my desk), and I've seen how they take over people's lives, so I don't want one. Most people I tell say something like "oh aren't you lucky" or "I wish I didn't have one".
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 12:15 AM   #17
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 13,395
Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
I asked you first. Should we just get rid of more machines so more people will have work?
It is hard to respond to a strawman argument. Replace as many people as you can with machines can't end well.

Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It always amazes me that this kind of talk is going on in the midst of the lowest unemployment rates in decades.
Only if you ignore underemployment, forced lengthy periods of baby sitting education and record student debt.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 12:57 AM   #18
lupus_in_fabula
Graduate Poster
 
lupus_in_fabula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,608
Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
America's economy is becoming more and more reliant on skilled labor while using robots and automation for manual tasks. Yet, many people are wishing that the economy should go back to the 1950s in that regard, demanded more manual manufacturing jobs. Are Trumpists or even Berine Sanders-types, the new Luddites?

From a Smithsonian article -- What the Luddites Really Fought Against:

Quote:
As the Industrial Revolution began, workers naturally worried about being displaced by increasingly efficient machines. But the Luddites themselves “were totally fine with machines,” says Kevin Binfield, editor of the 2004 collection Writings of the Luddites. They confined their attacks to manufacturers who used machines in what they called “a fraudulent and deceitful manner” to get around standard labor practices. “They just wanted machines that made high-quality goods,” says Binfield, “and they wanted these machines to be run by workers who had gone through an apprenticeship and got paid decent wages. Those were their only concerns.”

Emphasis mine.
__________________
...Forever shall the wolf in me desire the sheep in you...
lupus_in_fabula is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 05:43 AM   #19
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 14,022
A few random thoughts, observation.

- Even if we have this discussion and everyone agrees that we can't survive in a society without enough jobs to go around, I don't see anyway of changing the factors that have lead to that is going to be massively forced and artificial and just won't work. Even if all the business owners are onboard conceptually with the idea "Holy crap we can do this faster and more efficient with a machine/automated process" is not a genie we can either put back into the bottle nor keep future versions of in the bottle. If tomorrow someone invents a literally Star Trek transporter or replicator even if they are fully aware that such a thing would decimate any current traditional economic model the idea that they either would (or should) keep such a thing a secret simply isn't something we should count on. And "Employees are your single biggest cost" being something that is demonstratable fact for almost all industries is something we can't just make not true.

- This whole thing is a major change in mentality, one that's on a level that I don't think people are really appreciating fully. "More technology creates more jobs" has been the rule since... forever even though "X machine is going to put us all out of jobs" predictions have also been the rule. Everything from the wheel and fire to the internet has shown a net positive in overall jobs (decimating specific industries not withstanding). Is it different this time? Well it... feels different. Everyone is saying it is different and I personally cannot imagine what jobs are going to rise up in this new age because I don't see what gaps they are going to be creating, but that's all "Cry Wolf Truisims." I'm not saying it is wrong, this time very well might be different and yeah currently everything sort of is point at that, but again I do also respect how "Stop making new tech it's gonna put us all out of work!" must sound to a business and tech world for whom that has literally never been true.

- I think some people (and I have to fight the urge to place myself in this category I must admit) are kind of smugly sitting there thinking "No computer/machine is ever going to replace me!" and they might be bluffing with cards they don't have. I'm in the IT field and we've always been bemused by fears of automation safe in the "Well somebody's gonna have to fix those computers!" argument and while that probably is true in the short to mid/sorta far term I wonder if it is... really long term. Computers that fix computers aren't that crazy of an idea. A robot on the assembly line who's purpose is to fix the other robots is not that crazy of an idea. An algorithm who's job it is to write algorithms... is already pretty much what an algorithm is to a large degree.

Okay so what about other things. Medicine? Are we (on a timeline worth discussion) going to have computer doctors? Maybe but a hospital full of automated systems to do all the blood pressure checking and questionnaires and routine injections staffed by only a small percentage of the doctors and nurses they have now? That's not just possible giving health care costs that is practically certain in some form.

Or let's hit the big one... art. No I'm not saying the next Hemingways and Rembrants and Daniel Day Lewis's are going to be computers per se, we don't need to have the "Does this unit have a soul?" argument here, but... basic aesthetics and route design... maybe. If you just need a simple graphic whipped up for a sales flyer... maybe. If you just need a simple melody for a jingle... maybe. You're always gonna go (again on a timeframe worth discussing in this context) to your A-list human actor to play important historical figure so and so in your Oscar bait biopic... but what about crowd scenes? Stuntmen? Bit parts? The attractive but down to Earth mom in your yogurt commercial? What's more attractive SAG wages for your background actors, safety concerns for your stuntment, the possibility that you might end up in a PR disaster because your casting director tried to bang Yogurt Mom..... or just download "Generic Suburban Mom Template #323" from StockActorSims.com and let the CGI boys handle it?
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 6th August 2018 at 05:46 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 05:43 AM   #20
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
America's economy is becoming more and more reliant on skilled labor while using robots and automation for manual tasks. Yet, many people are wishing that the economy should go back to the 1950s in that regard, demanded more manual manufacturing jobs. Are Trumpists or even Berine Sanders-types, the new Luddites?
I can appreciate why they feel that way. Back in the 50's a (white ?) man with a good manufacturing job earning union rates could easily support his family. There was a fair amount of job security and if you did find yourself out of work, you could easily find another one. Your skills and abilities were in demand and you were compensated accordingly.

These days, those kinds of jobs are harder to come by and changes in employment legislation and attitudes towards organised labour has resulted in less job security and lower rates of pay for those lucky enough to find a job.

The world has changed and unfortunately there is a large group who have been left behind.

Even if the US unilaterally chose to step back and return to the 1950s, the global nature of the economy means that those manufacturing (and mining and so on) jobs are not coming back.

That said, we may be comparing apples with oranges. Maybe it is still possible to afford a 1950s lifestyle on a single salary but there are so many more financial demands. Even w.r.t. retirement, a man retiring in the 1950s at 65 would be far more likely to keel over and die in a couple of years and pensions provision reflected that.

As much as they may wish to return to that mythical golden age (no doubt improved by rose-tinted spectacles), that ship sailed decades ago and IMO it's a cheap con for a politician of whatever hue to suggest otherwise. People want a quick, certain and easy fix to their problems, unfortunately in this case any solution is likely to be slow, uncertain and difficult.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 05:47 AM   #21
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It always amazes me that this kind of talk is going on in the midst of the lowest unemployment rates in decades. Despair springs eternal, I suppose.
It doesn't surprise me at all. Even among the employed, living standards are declining. People are working hard at poorly paying, unpleasant jobs so even though they aren't unemployed, they aren't happy either. Meanwhile income and wealth inequality is increasing, economic and social mobility is decreasing and life expectancy is dropping for the poorest 20%.

Just being employed isn't be be-all and end-all, ask a 19th century indentured servant.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 07:42 AM   #22
Jerrymander
Critical Thinker
 
Jerrymander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It always amazes me that this kind of talk is going on in the midst of the lowest unemployment rates in decades. Despair springs eternal, I suppose.
Which is part of a trend going back to 2012.
Jerrymander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 11:49 AM   #23
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,825
Originally Posted by lupus_in_fabula View Post
From a Smithsonian article -- What the Luddites Really Fought Against:


Emphasis mine.
That's funny, because I always thought the Luddites were opposed to machines that replaced human labor, which turns out to be exactly what they were opposed to. I do love this part though:

Quote:
They confined their attacks to manufacturers who used machines in what they called “a fraudulent and deceitful manner” to get around standard labor practices.
How exactly does one use a machine in a fraudulent and deceitful manner? And I suspect that "getting around standard labor practices," just means replacing a human.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 01:29 PM   #24
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,494
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It always amazes me that this kind of talk is going on in the midst of the lowest unemployment rates in decades. Despair springs eternal, I suppose.
Because a lot of people are convinced that Trump's economics policies will wreck the economy once their effects set in?
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 01:32 PM   #25
Lplus
Student
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
That's funny, because I always thought the Luddites were opposed to machines that replaced human labor, which turns out to be exactly what they were opposed to. I do love this part though:



How exactly does one use a machine in a fraudulent and deceitful manner? And I suspect that "getting around standard labor practices," just means replacing a human.
And the rest of the quote:-
They just wanted machines that made high-quality goods,” says Binfield, “and they wanted these machines to be run by workers who had gone through an apprenticeship and got paid decent wages. Those were their only concerns.”
I read that as they wanted the original workers to still be employed as well as having the machines do the work. Sounds like a Union to me....
Lplus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 06:07 PM   #26
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,825
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Because a lot of people are convinced that Trump's economics policies will wreck the economy once their effects set in?
You know better than that. This is just a continuation of the "Let's pay everybody not to work because otherwise they will revolt because their jobs have all been taken over by robots," threads. I guess the idea that we are all going to be unemployable has set in so firmly that people are able to process the spectacularly low unemployment rate. It's a classic example of cognitive dissonance.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 07:27 PM   #27
Norman Alexander
Illuminator
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 3,240
Of course, there was so much more demand in the 1950's for website and app developers, PC-game-programmers, handheld device designers, etc., than there is now.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2018, 11:17 PM   #28
lupus_in_fabula
Graduate Poster
 
lupus_in_fabula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,608
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
How exactly does one use a machine in a fraudulent and deceitful manner? And I suspect that "getting around standard labor practices," just means replacing a human.
By breaking the perceived social contract between workers and owners of the means of production. It wasn't merely about technical advances, but also about the kind of social change such advances would entail as they clearly changed the whole mode of living. I.e., collective income shares threatened to change; income insecurity grew; worker's control of the work process dissipated; extensive use of child labor threatened the livelihood of adult laborers, work hours grew, working conditions deteriorated etc., etc. So, much of the Luddite's concerns were similar to standard modern labor union concerns during the post WWII era.
__________________
...Forever shall the wolf in me desire the sheep in you...

Last edited by lupus_in_fabula; 6th August 2018 at 11:45 PM.
lupus_in_fabula is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 03:32 AM   #29
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,719
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I guess the idea that we are all going to be unemployable has set in so firmly that people are able to process the spectacularly low unemployment rate.
'Spectacularly' low? Or just following the usual Business Cycle? We've been here many times in the past, and it never lasts. The next (inevitable) economic downturn will put us right back where we were 8 years ago.

What's more worrying is the consistently widening income gap between rich and 'poor', which indicates that while people may have jobs they are not necessarily good jobs. If this trend continues then the 'job creators' may soon find they don't have a market for their products. What will happen then? Economic collapse, soaring unemployment, social 'unrest', and even more 1%ers fleeing to gated communities in third World hell-holes (because why stay here when the US is just a more expensive hell-hole?).

But hey, anything's better than 'paying everybody not to work', right?


Originally Posted by JoeMorgue
Everything from the wheel and fire to the internet has shown a net positive in overall jobs (decimating specific industries not withstanding). Is it different this time? Well it... feels different. Everyone is saying it is different
In some ways it is different, but in others it's the same. In the past civilizations have risen and then collapsed as resources ran out, but there was always room for expansion. Now we are reaching the limit of how many people the entire planet can support, and the tech we are using to do that is destroying its capacity. The conditions are familiar, we've just never been here before as a species.

Automation may never put most of us out of work because western civilization could collapse before we get there. It's happened many times before, and there is no reason to suppose it won't happen again. Most people don't realize how vulnerable our modern technologies are to disruption. A combination of ecological disasters, rising religiosity and cults of ignorance, and wars over dwindling resources may put us back into another 'dark ages' where people have plenty of work to do just trying to stay alive. Think that's unlikely? That's what the Greeks and Romans thought too...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg civilian unemployment.jpg (29.4 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg Income divergence.jpg (135.7 KB, 11 views)
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 7th August 2018 at 03:37 AM. Reason: Where's my attachments???
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th August 2018, 11:44 AM   #30
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 4,933
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You have a co-forumite who is the same. I've never owned one, have used one only 3 or 4 times, and certainly don't have (or ever intend to have) a smart phone. I don't need one (there's a phone on my desk), and I've seen how they take over people's lives, so I don't want one. Most people I tell say something like "oh aren't you lucky" or "I wish I didn't have one".
Strangers often remark when I pull out my flip-phone in public. It's gotten pretty annoying, actually. "Yes, I know, you haven't seen a flip-phone in x years. You must be simply flummoxed. Better make a Facebook post about it."

But yeah, I get called a Luddite all the time. I don't think the word has much meaning left. As it's been applied to me, it appears to mean anyone who thinks things with names like Instagram and Snapchat are invasive wastes of time.

Last edited by isissxn; 14th August 2018 at 11:48 AM.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th August 2018, 03:12 AM   #31
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,986
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Strangers often remark when I pull out my flip-phone in public. It's gotten pretty annoying, actually. "Yes, I know, you haven't seen a flip-phone in x years. You must be simply flummoxed. Better make a Facebook post about it."

But yeah, I get called a Luddite all the time. I don't think the word has much meaning left. As it's been applied to me, it appears to mean anyone who thinks things with names like Instagram and Snapchat are invasive wastes of time.

Mine doesn't flip
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:48 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.