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Old 3rd January 2013, 05:45 PM   #121
StankApe
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such a tired method of character besmirchment the broad brush is....

did you know Idi Amin was infatuated with Scotland and it's history and people? Must mean that's because the Scots are hateful baby killers eh?

Did you know Fidel Castro had a beard? watch out for hipsters! they will break the backs of capitalism!
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Old 3rd January 2013, 05:46 PM   #122
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So tell us what we got wrong then.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 05:58 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
So tell us what we got wrong then.
are you talking to me? cuz if so, you misunderstood my post! lol

I was using Amin and beards to demonstrate another sweeping generalization that can be used to assign meaning to anything the user wishes via the broad brush fallacy.

Like how the religious can use "Hitler was an atheist" to try to assign some sort of menacing undertone to the values and morals of ALL atheists. Or "Hitler was a vegetarian" can be used by people to dismiss the motivating factor of some vegetarians who abstain from meat for "animal welfare" reasons. (by claiming via the broad brush, that Hitler killed a lot of people hence has no morality and thus your ethical argument is stupid)


Unless you weren't referring to me and I just misunderstood you!
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Old 3rd January 2013, 06:28 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
are you talking to me? cuz if so, you misunderstood my post! lol

I was using Amin and beards to demonstrate another sweeping generalization that can be used to assign meaning to anything the user wishes via the broad brush fallacy.

Like how the religious can use "Hitler was an atheist" to try to assign some sort of menacing undertone to the values and morals of ALL atheists. Or "Hitler was a vegetarian" can be used by people to dismiss the motivating factor of some vegetarians who abstain from meat for "animal welfare" reasons. (by claiming via the broad brush, that Hitler killed a lot of people hence has no morality and thus your ethical argument is stupid)


Unless you weren't referring to me and I just misunderstood you!
Sorry, I misunderstood you. I was thinking about sirloin right then.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 06:47 PM   #125
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It happens!! Beer makes it all better!!!!

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Old 3rd January 2013, 07:40 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
It happens!! Beer makes it all better!!!!

I was drinking Lazy Mary's.

Vodka and Spicy Hot V-8.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 09:47 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
According to some believers, anyway. Problem is he talked a who lotta god in his day, so nobody can say for certain one way or the other.

What can be determined is that over 90% of Germans were Christian, and the members of the Wehrmacht, the German military, were representative of the German general public demographic. So what was done by Nazis was done by Christians. You believers own that one.
Would it matter if he was? Because

1) merely believing or disbelieving in God does not make you a good or bad person,

2) it does not prove anything about whether atheism is a valid position or not (that is, if atheism is valid then Hitler being an atheist does not disprove it).

So it seems like it shouldn't matter. So what's the point of arguing over it?
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Old 4th January 2013, 04:14 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
<snip> Or "Hitler was a vegetarian" can be used by people to dismiss the motivating factor of some vegetarians who abstain from meat for "animal welfare" reasons. (by claiming via the broad brush, that Hitler killed a lot of people hence has no morality and thus your ethical argument is stupid)
At the risk of triggering some flames (or worse, summoning MaGZ) quite a few of the thirties fascists/anti-semites were vegetarians or active in the nascent animal welfare movement, e.g. Arnold Spencer-Leese (founder of the Imperial Fascist League) and Henry Williamson (prominent member of the British Union of Fascists and author of 'Tarka the Otter') in the UK and of course Hitler and Hess in Germany. Though Hitler had a fondness for liver dumplings.........
Richard Wagner, one of Hitler's influences, condemned both meat easting and race mixing and called for a "true and hearty fellowship with the vegetarians, the protectors of animals, and the friends of temperance"

I haven't examined the numbers in detail to see if they're statistically significant but in Spencer-Leese's case at least the requirement for kosher killing seem to have influenced his anti-semitism.
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Old 4th January 2013, 04:57 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by mike3 View Post
Would it matter if he was? Because

1) merely believing or disbelieving in God does not make you a good or bad person,

2) it does not prove anything about whether atheism is a valid position or not (that is, if atheism is valid then Hitler being an atheist does not disprove it).

So it seems like it shouldn't matter. So what's the point of arguing over it?
If you don't want to discuss it you have my permission to not do so.
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Old 4th January 2013, 05:36 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
The Christian cult promoted anti-Semitism because it was popular with the masses and churches always know which way the wind blows. Hitler learned anti-Semitism when he was a child in Christian Austria.
Hitler was influenced by pagan publications like Ostara.
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Old 4th January 2013, 05:42 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
Hitler was influenced by pagan publications like Ostara.
Karl Lueger wasn't. See http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...3_0_12844.html
Quote:
Lueger's antisemitism was opportunistic rather than racist, but he had a profound influence on the young Adolf Hitler in his formative years, and established on a firm footing the Viennese antisemitic tradition.
Lueger was founder of the Christian Social Party and later Mayor of Vienna. No pagan he!

Last edited by Craig B; 4th January 2013 at 05:44 AM.
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Old 4th January 2013, 05:44 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
Hitler was influenced by pagan publications like Ostara.
Christianity was influenced by every pagan religion it stole from to create its mythology.
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Old 4th January 2013, 05:44 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
The issue of Hitler's alleged atheism is a popular one among theists who wish to denigrate atheists. The common argument is that Hitler's actions are an example of what happens when one doesn't have a god to guide one's morality. Regarding this argument, the fact that the people who actually carried out Hitler's orders, and actually did the killing, were largely Christian is extremely relevant. Even if one granted that Hitler was an atheist (although there is no evidence that he was), one has to acknowledge that he used religious rhetoric to inspire his mostly Christian followers to carry out the heinous policies for which he is reviled.
So it is better to denigrate atheists with the murders committed by Stalin and Mao?
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Old 4th January 2013, 05:56 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
So it is better to denigrate atheists with the murders committed by Stalin and Mao?
I already handled Stalin, and as for Mao, the old ways are still alive in China from the reports I get.
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Old 4th January 2013, 06:02 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
So it is better to denigrate atheists with the murders committed by Stalin and Mao?
Eh? Better than what? Like Hitler and everybody else, Stalin and Mao committed crimes not because of what they didn't believe, but what they did believe; in this case "communism", as their ideology is usually called. How many people commit crimes because they don't believe in fairies, or dowsing, or homeopathy? Even though no doubt there are many dreadful criminals who disbelieve in these things.
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Old 4th January 2013, 11:28 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
Hitler was influenced by pagan publications like Ostara.
Will you be providing evidence for this assertion?
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Old 4th January 2013, 11:34 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
Christians willingly carried out the orders of Churchill and Roosevelt. Atheists willingly carried out the orders of Stalin.
Nope, they were either secret christians (orthodox mostly) or indoctrinated in the religion of state, with Stalin as the jesus figure.

I would not call an ardent Stalin fan an atheist - ever - just someone who fell for a modern religion, communism, with a god-figure that lived among them as head of state. Though ostensibly atheist, this was done more to challenge the traditional power centers communism sought to supplant - and replace with its own religion.
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Old 4th January 2013, 02:09 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Praktik View Post
Nope, they were either secret christians (orthodox mostly) or indoctrinated in the religion of state, with Stalin as the jesus figure.

I would not call an ardent Stalin fan an atheist - ever - just someone who fell for a modern religion, communism, with a god-figure that lived among them as head of state. Though ostensibly atheist, this was done more to challenge the traditional power centers communism sought to supplant - and replace with its own religion.
A cult of personality is still a cult, isn't it.
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Old 4th January 2013, 05:02 PM   #139
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It's all fine and dandy to discuss what Hitler told the people, but the most important question is, of course: what did he tell the State? After all, the people are merely there to serve the State (and that's not something only Hitler would say; Frederick the Great thought likewise). So let's see what Hitler told the State about his religion.

Germany has church tax. The way it's now (*) administered is that the municipal registration office records your religion. They give everyone a so-called Lohnsteuerkarte, a card for tax purposes with all kinds of basic information like your name, address, marital status, and religion. You give the Lohnsteuerkarte to your employer, and he then knows how much payroll tax to withhold from your gross wages and pay to the tax office. Your employer thus not only withholds advances for your income tax, but also for your church tax. The tax office pays the collected church taxes to the participating churches (only the protestant Evangelische Kirche and the RCC), withholding a 2% administration fee (and they actually make a profit on that fee ).

(*) Since 2011, the Lohnsteuerkarte has been replaced by a computerized system, but the basic idea remains the same.

The situation has not always been that simple. Church tax in Germany came into being during the 19th Century. The German states were the primary mover in this, out of a concern to loosen the ties (financial) ties between state and church. In protestant states, the Lutheran church had always been state church and the state had to pay for various church costs. Catholic states had seized all RC property in the 1803 Reichsdeputationshauptschluss and taken over financial obligation for church buildings and salaries. Prussia introduced church tax in 1835 in its western provinces (Rhineland and Westphalia), and in 1905 in the rest of the state. Bavaria introduced them in 1892.

At first, these taxes were levied at communal level, and could vary quite a bit from town to town, but in due time this got centralized. First at state level, and with the establishment of the Weimar Republic at federal level: article 137 of the Weimar Constitution states that the churches can levy taxes on basis of the civil tax lists. In practice, this meant that the tax offices levied the church taxes for the churches. And it was the Hitler regime that, in 1934, added the "religion" entry to the Lohnsteuerkarte. And that situation has existed until now.

And, truth be told, in 1941 the Hitler regime changed the "must" collect church taxes into a "may"; thereupon, at least the Bavarian RC church instituted their own tax agency.

So, the German tax office would be the prime institute to know what religion Hitler belonged to. After WW2, US army officer Oron James Hale found Hitler's tax files, published his findings about them in his article "Adolf Hitler: Taxpayer", and returned them to the Bavarian state archives. Unfortunately for us, Hale did not cover his church tax, but focused on his income tax only, which is an interesting story in its own right.

Hitler raised the attention of the Munich tax office in 1925 when he bought a RM 20,000 Mercedes - that price is about 10 yearly wages of a skilled worker - fresh out of Landsberg prison. With his advance filings for Q3 of 1925 starts Hitler's Kampf with the tax office. Over RM 11,000 income, he claims RM 9,000 in deductibles - a secretary, chauffeur, assistant, interest on loans and repayment of loan. The tax office only awards half of the deductibles. He appeals, but is unsuccessful This pattern repeats itself over the next 8 years. And he is always in arrears with his income tax payments.

During the "years in the wilderness", Hitler still lived in a luxurious apartment, and employed a staff. Besides his royalties from Mein Kampf and loans, he undoubtedly received many gifts, but those never surface in his tax filings. Hitler is almost a normal citizen who tries to skimp on his taxes as much as he can. Then, in 1930, the NSDAP achieves electoral success, and a cheap edition of Mein Kamp is published and becomes a great success. Hitler's royalties triple to RM 45,000. Again, he tries to claim more than half as deductibles, but the tax office refuses, also on appeal.

In 1933 Hitler hits the jackpot. The tax office changes the labeling of his tax folder from "A. Hitler, author" to "A. Hitler, Chancellor". Hitler has promised to donate his RM 45,000 salary as Chancellor to a fund for widows and orphans of SA and SS men, and pleads that this is not to be taxed. The tax office agrees, this time. However, his Chancellor's salary is small potatoes compared to his royalties, which skyrocket this year to RM 1,200,000. Hitler again tries to claim half of it as deductibles, and the tax office refuses that again.

Dr. Alfons Paunsch, historian of the German Finance Ministry, uncovered the details in 1970, aided by the recollection of Hitler's Finance Minister Graf Schwerin von Krosigk. In a cabinet meeting, Goebbels, himself author, remarked: "surely Hitler doesn't have to pay taxes on his royalties", upon which Krosigk answered that, yes, he has to. Hours later Hitler went to Deputy Finance Minister Reinhardt, a Nazi, who wrote a note that the 50% deductibles were okay. But Hitler wouldn't even pay the RM 300,000 he was due with this generous deal. Shortly before the tax office would actually send the bailiff, Hitler went again to Reinhardt for his help. Reinhardt contacted the president of the Munich tax office, Ludwig Mirre. Mirre wrote a letter to Hitler that in his view, constitutionally the Chancellor is freed from income tax. In March 1935, Hitler's file was closed.

Mirre got for his services a promotion to presiding judge of the federal tax court, and RM 2,000 monthly on top of his regular wage - tax-free, of course. After the war, he was tried as collaborator and sentenced to a fine of RM 100.

In 2004, historian Anna-Maria Sigmund rediscovered Hitler's tax file in the Bavarian archives. Thereupon, retired notary-public and tax expert Klaus-Dieter Dubon also studies the file, and the subject hits the news again. Dubon calculates that on the closing of Hitler's tax file, he was RM 400,000 in arrears in payment. More importantly, he also looks at the rest. As much as Hitler skimped on his income tax, and was in arrears, he was punctual and timely with two other taxes: the church tax and the dog tax.

Hitler loved the RCC as much as Blondi.

Sources:
Kirchensteuer, German wiki lemma
Dr. Jörg Pedersen, Die Kirchensteuer. Eine kurze Information (in German)
Kirchensteuer, lemma in Historisches Lexicon Bayern (in German)
Zur Geschichte der Kirchenfinanzierung in neuerer Zeit
German Finance Ministry, glossary, entry Kirchensteuer (in German)
Verfassung des Deutschen Reiches (Weimar Constitution) (English translation)
Oron James Hale, Adolf Hitler: Taxpayer. The American Historical Review, vol. 60 nr. 4, 1955.
Von steuern befreit. Der Spiegel, 15/70, 06-04-1970 (in German).
Friederike Freiburg, Der Führer ist damit steuerfrei!. Der Spiegel, 16-12-2004 (in German).
Luke Harding, Al Capone, Lester Piggott and now ... Adolf Hitler. The Guardian, 18-12-2004.
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