Split Thread: Musk, SpaceX and future of Tesla

[Shalamar]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Tesla Roadster, Second Generation.

The direction of criticism against Tesla is a bit strange. Exactly how many models is a car manufacturer supposed to have 10 years after they brought their first car to market? Is there a definite answer?

The answer seems to be “more than Tesla”.

[The Don]

Just because Tesla announces a new model, it doesn't mean that people will be able to buy it any time soon (if at all)

[Filippo Lippi]

See: the "affordable model"

Which was supposed to be the model 3, until it wasn't

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Not right now, but they are coming.


Tesla Roadster (second generation)

The new Tesla Roadster will be largely irrelevant to almost everybody.

The Cybertruck may arrive at some point, but we can't really be sure when and when it does there will be questions about its safety as discussed above.

The Artic is probably never going to be on general sale and again it is irrelevant to the car buying public.

It's all very well saying "Tesla likes to test its cars" but its cars are consistently late to production. Ford may start shipping its cars with faults, but Tesla doesn't ship at all.

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

See: the "affordable model"

Which was supposed to be the model 3, until it wasn't

If you think $35k is affordable, yes. But then they didn't deliver the base model. I think it was just intended as a bait and switch.

[Filippo Lippi]

Which was my point

[Bogative]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Tesla Roadster, Second Generation.

The direction of criticism against Tesla is a bit strange. Exactly how many models is a car manufacturer supposed to have 10 years after they brought their first car to market? Is there a definite answer?

Yes, the definite answer is always a different number than what is actually being made. It's a symptom of MDS.

[Bogative]

Originally Posted by jeremyp

It's all very well saying "Tesla likes to test its cars" but its cars are consistently late to production. Ford may start shipping its cars with faults, but Tesla doesn't ship at all.

One may expect that to be the case when a company has to build brand-new billion-dollar factories (Austin, Texas and Mexico) and expand already existing factories (Nevada) to increase production of existing models and start building new models.

I know MDS may make that difficult to understand, but it's true.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Tesla Roadster, Second Generation.

The direction of criticism against Tesla is a bit strange. Exactly how many models is a car manufacturer supposed to have 10 years after they brought their first car to market? Is there a definite answer?

Since when is a coupe a "roadster"? Because roadsters are supposed to open-topped.
I saw a first-generation Tesla roadster at the ferry dock a few years ago. It looked pretty crude. Current ones don't.

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Since when is a coupe a "roadster"? Because roadsters are supposed to open-topped.
I saw a first-generation Tesla roadster at the ferry dock a few years ago. It looked pretty crude. Current ones don't.

You can remove the top on both the old and the new Roadster.

Video of open topped old and new Tesla Roadster.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

See: the "affordable model"

Which was supposed to be the model 3, until it wasn't

The model 3 was affordable compared to their earlier models, and it has gotten much cheaper since. But the plan was always to continue lowering the price. The model 2 will be made even cheaper by using more gigacastings and new battery technology.

According to the EVDB, the Tesla Model 3 is New Zealand's best selling battery electric vehicle. I am seeing more model 3's and Y's around here than any other brand EV (apart from second hand Nissan Leafs imported from Japan).

They are not the most expensive by far. Current NZ prices without clean car discount (driving range in brackets) :-

GWM Ora (310km) $47,900
BYD DOLPHIN (340km) $49,990
Opel Corsa-e (337km) $49,990
MG ZS Excite (320km) $49,990
Nissan Leaf (270km) $49,990
GWM Ora Extended Range (420km) $52,994
Nissan Leaf E+ (382km) $56,990
Opel Mokka-e SRi (363km) $56,990
Peugeot 208 (382km) $56,990
BYD Atto 3 (305km) $56,990
SsangYong Korando E-motion (337km) $59,990
MINI Hatch (233km) $60,400
BYD Atto 3 Extended Range (420km) $62,492
MG 4 Long Range (530km) $63,990
Kia Niro Plus (427km) $64,990
Tesla Model 3 (554km) $67,500
Tesla Model Y (505km) $67,500
Kia Nero EV (460km) $68,990
Mazda MX-30 (224km) $68,590
Citroen e-C4 (363km) $69,990
Opel Mokka (262km) $69,990
Hyundai Kona SR (305km) $69,990
Mini Cooper SE (203km) $70,155
Kia EV6 Air LR (528km) $70,365
Polestar 2 (478km) $76,900
Kia EV6 (394km) $76,990
Cupra Born V+ (511km) $77,900
BMW i3 (335km) $78,700
Hyundai Kona Series II (484km) $78,780
Volkswagen ID.4 Pro (515km) $79,990
Volkswagen ID.5 (485km) $79,900
Hyundai Kona 64 kWh (484km) $79,990
LDV MIFA 9 (440km) $79,990
Lexus UX (450km) $79,990
Polestar 2 Long Range (551km) $86,900
Volvo C40 Recharge (438km) $87,899
SKODA Enyaq 80 (544km) $89,990
Skoda ENYAQ COUPE (420km) $89,990
Mercedes Benz EQA 250 (426km) $93,600
Hyundai IONIQ 5 LR (481km) $94,989
BMW iX1 xDrive30 (417km) $98,900
Audi Q4 e-tron 40 (526km) $99,990
Kia EV 6 Earth (506km) $99,990
Volvo XC40 Recharge Twin (438km) $99,900
Mercedes Benz EQB 250 (371km) $99,990

Notes:
- Other highlighted models are those with similar range to the Model 3.
- Excluding 'luxury' cars selling for over $100,000, of which there are many.
- Clean car discount of $7015 currently applies to most EVs costing less than $80,000.

A fair comparison would take range into account. The Tesla model 3 has higher range than other brands costing much more. The GWM Ora 'Funky Cat' is a great little car at a (comparatively) low price - if you don't need long range and trust Chinese engineering. But the Model 3 is much better value in terms of range per $ (and features). If the Model 2 turns out to be a similar price to the Ora it will be a smash hit.

Compiling this list was interesting - I had no idea that so many EV models were available in New Zealand. The range of prices and ranges is also interesting. The Mazda MX-30 is more expensive than the Tesla Model 3 and yet has less than half the range. The Opel Mokka isn't much better. The Nissan Leaf has petty poor range too at 270km, but it is $17,510 cheaper. When the original Leaf - with less than 160km range - debuted in New Zealand in 2011 it cost $60,000. So the current model is much better value. I'm glad I didn't buy one when they were new!

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

The model 3 was affordable compared to their earlier models

"Affordable" and "cheaper than the rest of the range" do not mean the same thing. There must be a cheapest Ferrari model, but it's not affordable.

Quote:

and it has gotten much cheaper since.

Which is fortunate since, when it first came off the production line, the cheapest one you could actually take delivery of was $49k

Quote:

The model 2 will be made even cheaper by using more gigacastings and new battery technology.

What kind of idiot thinks prefixing everything with "giga" makes it sound cooler. Oh, Elon Musk, that kind of idiot.

Anyway, the model 2 is allegedly slated for 2025, so that means 2028 at the earliest.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Tesla likes to test new models for a while before going into mass production. Unlike Toyota and Ford, who put vehicles into production with serious faults and then have to recall them.

Toyota recalled their BZ4X EV (which was supposed to be the first in a lineup of 7 EVs to be released by 2025) after the wheels were literally falling off. Their excuse - the higher torque of the electric motor put more strain on the bolts and caused them to come loose. That's what you get when you rush out a new model without thoroughly testing it first. Toyota thought they could get away with it due to their vast experience in designing cars - gas cars.

What You Should Know About Toyota’s BZ4X EV Recall"if a wheel detaches while driving, vehicle control could be lost"!

Ford recalled 100,000 hybrids that were prone to catching fire - no, not the battery - the gas engine. They applied a fix that consisted of drilling holes though some bulkheads to let leaking fluids escape - it didn't work. They had to recall them again!

Ford recalling 125,000 SUVs and trucks that could catch fire

The root cause of both Toyota and Ford's screwups was the same - thinking they could quickly push out new models with an unfamiliar technology, without first going through a rigorous field testing phase.

Tesla don't do that. The Cybertruck has been in testing for months. They even shipped one to New Zealand to test it on our roads. Pepsi have been running their fleet of 21 Tesla Semis for 10 months now, operating them for up to 12 hours a day and routes of 250 to 450 miles.

Tesla is notorious for having their steering wheels fall off and a variety of other embarrassing quality control and design failings.

I'm not particularly convinced that the number of different models sold means much, but let's not pretend the lack of variety from Tesla is a consequence of them focusing on quality.

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Tesla is notorious for having their steering wheels fall off....

How many times has that happened?

[Disbelief]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Tesla likes to test new models for a while before going into mass production. Unlike Toyota and Ford, who put vehicles into production with serious faults and then have to recall them.

Seems an odd thing then:

https://www.autoweek.com/news/indust...led-car-brand/

[Bogative]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

How many times has that happened?

2


2 years ago Ford issued a recall on 1.4 million vehicles because 3 steering wheels fell off of their cars.

Yet Ford isn't notorious for having their steering wheels fall off. Must be another symptom of MDS.

https://www.endurancewarranty.com/le...eering-wheels/



ETA: Toyota is also notorious for having their steering wheels fall off…

It's happened 3 times to their Highlander.

Putin! Apartheid!

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by jeremyp

What kind of idiot thinks prefixing everything with "giga" makes it sound cooler. Oh, Elon Musk, that kind of idiot.

That's. right. Other manufacturers wouldn't use use such hyperbolic wording. They call theirs 'megacastings'.

Megacasting: a chance to rethink body manufacturing

Quote:

The aluminium die-casting process could revolutionise body construction. Professor Wolfram Volk, the department head for forming technology and casting at the Technical University of Munich, explains the advantages and disadvantages of so-called ‘mega’- or ‘gigacasting’...

While Tesla has been a frontrunner, using the process to cast large body structures that are reported to save 70 parts for each large piece, Volvo Cars has also just announced a plan to switch to aluminium megacasting for rear body structures starting at its Torslanda plant in Gothenburg, Sweden for new electric vehicle platforms starting in 2025.

The process offers potential benefits in parts reduction, which can remove logistics and emissions in various processes, while providing more flexibility in aspects of vehicle platform engineering. However, according to Prof. Wolfram Volk, the head of the department of forming technology and casting at the Technical University of Munich, it also brings space challenges to factories

Or do they?

Idra's 9,000-Ton Giga Press Is Ready To Cast Tesla Cybertruck's Underbody

Quote:

Tesla Cybertruck is about to enter production. This time, it could be the real thing, though, as the Italians from Idra have shown the assembling process of their biggest Giga Press yet. The 9,000-ton machine is supposed to cast the Cybertruck underbody, greatly simplifying the production process.

If you’re not familiar with Idra, it’s enough to say that the Italians build the world’s largest high-pressure die casting machines. They call them Giga Presses, and, believe it or not, the name has nothing to do with Elon Musk. As explained by the company’s CEO, it was coined in 2019 when Idra produced the first 5,500-ton die casting machine...

These things are getting bigger and bigger, and the latest built by Idra is capable of 9,000 tons of clamping force. Rumors have it that the Giga Press is destined to be installed at Giga Texas and used in the Cybertruck’s single-piece rear underbody production. This information was backed by Elon Musk, who said a year ago that the Cybertruck’s underbody would require at least an 8,000-ton Giga Press.

What kind of idiot would think Musk was the only one to use the term 'giga'? Oh... that kind of idiot.

Originally Posted by jeremyp

Anyway, the model 2 is allegedly slated for 2025, so that means 2028 at the earliest.

I've bookmarked this page so I can come back when the Model 2 is released, and then we will see how wrong you are.

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Seems an odd thing then:

https://www.autoweek.com/news/indust...led-car-brand/

Note that most of those "recalls" were small software updates that happened while you slept.

When every one of those gets labelled a recall, then yeah, they will have large numbers.

https://www.torquenews.com/1/tesla-r...oftware-update

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Tesla likes to test new models for a while before going into mass production. Unlike Toyota and Ford, who put vehicles into production with serious faults and then have to recall them.

Toyota recalled their BZ4X EV (which was supposed to be the first in a lineup of 7 EVs to be released by 2025) after the wheels were literally falling off. Their excuse - the higher torque of the electric motor put more strain on the bolts and caused them to come loose. That's what you get when you rush out a new model without thoroughly testing it first. Toyota thought they could get away with it due to their vast experience in designing cars - gas cars.

What You Should Know About Toyota’s BZ4X EV Recall"if a wheel detaches while driving, vehicle control could be lost"!

Ford recalled 100,000 hybrids that were prone to catching fire - no, not the battery - the gas engine. They applied a fix that consisted of drilling holes though some bulkheads to let leaking fluids escape - it didn't work. They had to recall them again!

Ford recalling 125,000 SUVs and trucks that could catch fire

The root cause of both Toyota and Ford's screwups was the same - thinking they could quickly push out new models with an unfamiliar technology, without first going through a rigorous field testing phase.

Tesla don't do that. The Cybertruck has been in testing for months. They even shipped one to New Zealand to test it on our roads. Pepsi have been running their fleet of 21 Tesla Semis for 10 months now, operating them for up to 12 hours a day and routes of 250 to 450 miles.

Oh dear.

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Note that most of those "recalls" were small software updates that happened while you slept.

When every one of those gets labelled a recall, then yeah, they will have large numbers.

https://www.torquenews.com/1/tesla-r...oftware-update

software that may cause crashes is roughly as serious as a mechanical recall imo

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Oh dear.

Seriously?

Did you read it? A year old and “recalled” because it was conceivable fingers might be pinched.

“Tesla said it was not aware of any warranty claims, crashes, injuries, or deaths related to the recall..
Mr Musk hit out on Twitter after the news broke.
"The terminology is outdated and inaccurate. This is a tiny over-the-air software update. To the best of our knowledge, there have been no injuries," he said.”

“Recalled” in quotes because the issue was addressed via over-the-air software update.

Pretty weak sauce if you were trying to make a point.

[Darat]

Tesla cars are extraordinarily successful; it's a small range but as I've said before that isn't a business problem if what you are producing is what people want and certainly at the moment people want the range.

Whether products are technically "the best" or the highest quality etc. can have truly little to do with popularity or even success, the classic example is of course the remarkably successful Apple company.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Seriously?

Did you read it? A year old and “recalled” because it was conceivable fingers might be pinched.

“Tesla said it was not aware of any warranty claims, crashes, injuries, or deaths related to the recall..
Mr Musk hit out on Twitter after the news broke.
"The terminology is outdated and inaccurate. This is a tiny over-the-air software update. To the best of our knowledge, there have been no injuries," he said.”

“Recalled” in quotes because the issue was addressed via over-the-air software update.

Pretty weak sauce if you were trying to make a point.

The article also mentioned previous recalls:

rear-view cameras
bonnet latches
seat-belt reminders
sound-system software

But not sure what the issue is with recalls? Because we have extremely strict safety regulations with cars - as we should given their potential for causing harm - every car range from every manufacturer is going to have recalls. Cars are complex machines, many issues simply won't be found during the testing stages because you cannot in testing duplicate the almost endless real world conditions cars will face.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Note that most of those "recalls" were small software updates that happened while you slept.

When every one of those gets labelled a recall, then yeah, they will have large numbers.

https://www.torquenews.com/1/tesla-r...oftware-update

Given how important software is for modern cars I think the word we've been using for decades "recalls" still makes sense even if it no longer means literally cars going back to the manufacturer for work to be done.

[BrettM]

Originally Posted by Darat

Given how important software is for modern cars I think the word we've been using for decades "recalls" still makes sense even if it no longer means literally cars going back to the manufacturer for work to be done.

Maybe "Remote Software Update", or "Bugfix" or "Patch" is a better phrase or word to use than "Recall". I always associate the word "Recall" with physically taking my vehicle to a service centre, and leaving it there for an unspecified amount of time while the fault is rectified - always a matter of great inconvenience to myself. A software update while I sleep doesn't fall into the same category.

[Disbelief]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Note that most of those "recalls" were small software updates that happened while you slept.

When every one of those gets labelled a recall, then yeah, they will have large numbers.

https://www.torquenews.com/1/tesla-r...oftware-update

Don't care, they are recalls because the agency responsible has designated them as needing to be fixed. Because you don't like the term, it doesn't change the fact that the government required them to fix them.

I work for a competitor, but have no animosity towards Tesla. I think they have done some really good things and have pushed the industry towards electric vehicles much faster than it would have happened otherwise. That said, it still is stunning to me how there are individuals who think everything they do is fantastic (it usually isn't) or stupid/extreme (it usually isn't).

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Don't care, they are recalls because the agency responsible has designated them as needing to be fixed. Because you don't like the term, it doesn't change the fact that the government required them to fix them.

I don't like the term because it's a loaded term. People associate recalls with, well, recalls. That is, you have to take it back to the dealer and have it adjusted or fixed.

So when the windows on Teslas might roll up slightly too fast, and they send out and update to all their cars, people just looooove sharing headlines that say millions of Teslas recalled. And since Tesla can easily do these small adjustments, those millions rack up fast.

My last car was a Volvo, and whenever there was a software update, I had to take it to the dealer and let them download and install it. They didn't do at home wifi updates. This happened maybe once a year, unlike Tesla's continuous over the air updates.

So sure, let's insist on still calling them recalls. But you can't then turn around and criticize Tesla for having a lot of recalls. Because it basically doesn't mean a thing.

To improve their recall numbers, Tesla could do what Volvo does. But that would be a detriment to the car owners, don't you think?

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Seriously?

Did you read it? A year old and “recalled” because it was conceivable fingers might be pinched.

“Tesla said it was not aware of any warranty claims, crashes, injuries, or deaths related to the recall..
Mr Musk hit out on Twitter after the news broke.
"The terminology is outdated and inaccurate. This is a tiny over-the-air software update. To the best of our knowledge, there have been no injuries," he said.”

“Recalled” in quotes because the issue was addressed via over-the-air software update.

Pretty weak sauce if you were trying to make a point.

Did you? Because we can clearly see the anti-safety attitude of Galaxy Brain Elon from his quotes in the article.

[Disbelief]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

I don't like the term because it's a loaded term. People associate recalls with, well, recalls. That is, you have to take it back to the dealer and have it adjusted or fixed.

So when the windows on Teslas might roll up slightly too fast, and they send out and update to all their cars, people just looooove sharing headlines that say millions of Teslas recalled. And since Tesla can easily do these small adjustments, those millions rack up fast.

My last car was a Volvo, and whenever there was a software update, I had to take it to the dealer and let them download and install it. They didn't do at home wifi updates. This happened maybe once a year, unlike Tesla's continuous over the air updates.

So sure, let's insist on still calling them recalls. But you can't then turn around and criticize Tesla for having a lot of recalls. Because it basically doesn't mean a thing.

To improve their recall numbers, Tesla could do what Volvo does. But that would be a detriment to the car owners, don't you think?

That's not what this is about. This is about the NHTSA deciding that there is an issue that needs to be addressed, not about Tesla deciding to do an OTA for something they found. Service bulletins are things that manufacturers do all the time, but don't rise to level of recall.

[ZiprHead]

Tesla Is The Most-Recalled Car Brand—By Far—Of All Cars, Trucks, And SUVs

[The Great Zaganza]

not unusual in a new car brand.
It's just unusual that so many people buy the brand as if it was an established carmaker.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Don't care,

Yes, we noticed.

I didn't post those recalls as some kind of game to see which manufacturer had the most of them. I did it to illustrate the serious problems conventional car makers are having with these new technologies. Your attempt to equate software updates addressing minor regulatory issues to serious faults resulting in incidents such as wheels falling off and engines catching fire is pathetic, but that's not what's bad about it. If this was a formal debate we would just mark a point against you and move on. But in this case there are serious real-world effects - and that is something I do care about.

This thread is a microcosm of what is going on the real world, where people's opinions have influence that can be very damaging. In the case of global warming there is huge pushback coming from people all over - many of whom are deliberately slanting facts or even flat-out lying to push their agenda. If this results in waning public support causing us to miss emissions targets and make the climate even worse, we will know who to blame - and it won't be Elon Musk or Tesla.

Quote:

I work for a competitor, but have no animosity towards Tesla. I think they have done some really good things and have pushed the industry towards electric vehicles much faster than it would have happened otherwise. That said, it still is stunning to me how there are individuals who think everything they do is fantastic (it usually isn't) or stupid/extreme (it usually isn't).

First you contradict yourself, then you attack a straw man. Why? Either you are having a conversation with someone who isn't posting here, or you have an unconscious bias coloring your arguments. Working for a competitor, but have no animosity? You might want to check again.

Nobody here is saying that everything Tesla does is fantastic. That would be silly. However...

Compared to other car companies Tesla is very young and inexperienced, and they are innovating at a much higher rate. Logically one would expect that they would make heaps of mistakes and their cars would be full of serious faults. One would expect that due to this inexperience and risky innovation they would fail - especially with an eccentric like Musk at the helm. Everybody in the industry expected it. But they didn't. In fact Tesla is now showing those other car companies how it's done and they are following, something no rational person expected.

Tesla has almost single-handedly dragged conventional car makers into the electric age by showing them what could be done, and become a major EV maker itself that keeps growing. As someone who knows the importance of this goal and was sorely disappointed the lack of progress by the industry, I would call that a fantastic result.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Your attempt to equate software updates addressing minor regulatory issues to serious faults resulting in incidents such as wheels falling off and engines catching fire

For what it's worth, a number of Tesla cars have spontaneously caught fire, at last check, so trying to treat all their problems as minor regulatory issues seems questionable, at best.

With that said, cars catching fire is obviously not solely limited to Tesla, but this thread is about Tesla and not the others.

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

That's. right. Other manufacturers wouldn't use use such hyperbolic wording. They call theirs 'megacastings'.

Megacasting: a chance to rethink body manufacturing


Or do they?

Idra's 9,000-Ton Giga Press Is Ready To Cast Tesla Cybertruck's Underbody
What kind of idiot would think Musk was the only one to use the term 'giga'? Oh... that kind of idiot.

I didn't say that Musk was the only person to use pretentious nonsense terms like that.

Is a Gigacasting 1000 times better than Megacasting? It's really just a very big die casting machine.

Quote:

I've bookmarked this page so I can come back when the Model 2 is released, and then we will see how wrong you are.

Aren't the failures to bring the model 3, Cybertruck and Artic to market on time not enough evidence for you that Tesla doesn't know how to make cars?

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Darat

The article also mentioned previous recalls:

rear-view cameras
bonnet latches
seat-belt reminders
sound-system software

But not sure what the issue is with recalls? Because we have extremely strict safety regulations with cars - as we should given their potential for causing harm - every car range from every manufacturer is going to have recalls. Cars are complex machines, many issues simply won't be found during the testing stages because you cannot in testing duplicate the almost endless real world conditions cars will face.

There is no issue with recalls, all car manufacturers do it. The issue is that somebody here claimed that the reason Tesla is very slow to bring new models to market was because of all the extra testing they do. The reality is that they are slow to bring new models to market and their quality control is quite poor. I suppose we should be glad of the extra testing. Imagine how bad the cars would be without it.

[dirtywick]

also, is the contention here that tesla is issuing unnecessary recalls or being unfairly targeted by them? would another auto maker that shipped out cars with the same flaws not have to correct them?

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Your attempt to equate software updates addressing minor regulatory issues to serious faults resulting in incidents such as wheels falling off and engines catching fire is pathetic

i think it's more about musk's attempt to equate recalls to minor software updates because he doesn't like the word recall

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

not unusual in a new car brand.
It's just unusual that so many people buy the brand as if it was an established carmaker.

Well, yeah. Being an early adopter is exciting for some people I suppose, but that usually involves having to deal with a lot of teething issues that more established technology has dealt with.

Tesla fanbois get bent out of shape if you suggest that the company that seems to take pride in taking a novel approach to even the most mundane features of car design might have lots of problems related to that.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Bogative

2


2 years ago Ford issued a recall on 1.4 million vehicles because 3 steering wheels fell off of their cars.

Yet Ford isn't notorious for having their steering wheels fall off. Must be another symptom of MDS.

https://www.endurancewarranty.com/le...eering-wheels/



ETA: Toyota is also notorious for having their steering wheels fall off…

It's happened 3 times to their Highlander.

Putin! Apartheid!

The difference being that Ford and Toyota doesn't have a fan base that reflexively assert that these quality problems don't exist.

Ford's debacles with poor design and quality are plainly discussed. The defective transmission of the Fiesta and Focus sedans were a huge black eye and nobody pretends otherwise. American made cars aren't exactly known for being the leaders in quality. Hell, they've almost entirely thrown in the towel when it comes to smaller non-truck commuter vehicles because they can't compete with the Asian manufacturers.

Even the good manufacturers have problems from time to time, and this is well documented and discussed by people who care about such things, like potential car buyers who will research which model years and versions have quality issues.

Only Tesla has the legion of fanbois that come out of the woodwork to defend the company against what you would think were rather uncontroversial criticisms, like that steering wheels shouldn't fall off or that body panels on a luxury car should probably be welded on straight.

Regulating around irresponsible owners is hard though. The "XL" breed largely exists to evade the prior bans in the UK on regular pit bulls. Banning breeds by name always invites ambiguity when it comes to mixes, or in even outright novel breeds created to evade bans and provide dangerous dogs to irresponsible dog owners.

[Disbelief]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Yes, we noticed.

I didn't post those recalls as some kind of game to see which manufacturer had the most of them. I did it to illustrate the serious problems conventional car makers are having with these new technologies. Your attempt to equate software updates addressing minor regulatory issues to serious faults resulting in incidents such as wheels falling off and engines catching fire is pathetic, but that's not what's bad about it. If this was a formal debate we would just mark a point against you and move on. But in this case there are serious real-world effects - and that is something I do care about.

This thread is a microcosm of what is going on the real world, where people's opinions have influence that can be very damaging. In the case of global warming there is huge pushback coming from people all over - many of whom are deliberately slanting facts or even flat-out lying to push their agenda. If this results in waning public support causing us to miss emissions targets and make the climate even worse, we will know who to blame - and it won't be Elon Musk or Tesla.

It's not a formal debate, so I give zero ***** about a mark against me. You do realize that we can look up the recalls and your downplaying of the recalls as being software driven is pretty much ********. They have one for loose fasteners on the steering wheel, possibility of it disconnecting. They have one for loose seat frames. They have a couple for loose fasteners on the front suspension.

As for the software, there's one for FSD that allows the car to drive through intersections and make unsafe turns. There's one for potential loss of power steering when driving over rough terrain.

Your downplaying of the severity of the recalls is enlightening.

Quote:

First you contradict yourself, then you attack a straw man. Why? Either you are having a conversation with someone who isn't posting here, or you have an unconscious bias coloring your arguments. Working for a competitor, but have no animosity? You might want to check again.

Nobody here is saying that everything Tesla does is fantastic. That would be silly. However...

Compared to other car companies Tesla is very young and inexperienced, and they are innovating at a much higher rate. Logically one would expect that they would make heaps of mistakes and their cars would be full of serious faults. One would expect that due to this inexperience and risky innovation they would fail - especially with an eccentric like Musk at the helm. Everybody in the industry expected it. But they didn't. In fact Tesla is now showing those other car companies how it's done and they are following, something no rational person expected.

Tesla has almost single-handedly dragged conventional car makers into the electric age by showing them what could be done, and become a major EV maker itself that keeps growing. As someone who knows the importance of this goal and was sorely disappointed the lack of progress by the industry, I would call that a fantastic result.

Must have struck a nerve, because I never specified that there were people here who were acting in such a manner. I was making a general statement about how Tesla seems to polarize people - some who think they do no wrong and others who think they do everything right.

I do not have animosity towards Tesla or Musk, nothing they have done has affected my paycheck in the slightest. If anything, it has allowed me to work on new and different projects like electric vehicles and autonomous cars, something I would not have expected when I started in the industry many years ago.