Are you ready for another Trump Presidency? - Page 6

Stacyhs · 17th September 2023, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Wow, I found an abortion clinic in New York that talks about abortions even in the 9th month.

https://eastsidegynecology.com/blog/...-get-abortion/

You're being disingenuous. The site discusses the different types of abortion including two that are used for full-term pregnancies. Full-term abortions may be used when the fetus dies in utero. if the baby is alive, no doctor is going to perform a full-term abortion, they'll perform a C-section or induce labor. Women do NOT go full term and then just decide they don't want the baby and have an abortion.

Norman Alexander · 17th September 2023, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Wow, I found an abortion clinic in New York that talks about abortions even in the 9th month.

https://eastsidegynecology.com/blog/...-get-abortion/

Why "wow"? You sound surprised. Did you read what they said about that situation? That it is exceptionally rare and only needed for extremely serious medical situations? Or did your brain stop at the "9 months" bit and then turn all red and MAGA-ish.

Hercules56 · 17th September 2023, 02:20 PM

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fact-ch...-of-pregnancy/

Abortions in the 9th month are apparently not the fantasy that some make it out to be. Obviously very rare, but still possible and some docs will do it and some states allow it.

Hercules56 · 17th September 2023, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Why "wow"? You sound surprised. Did you read what they said about that situation? That it is exceptionally rare and only needed for extremely serious medical situations? Or did your brain stop at the "9 months" bit and then turn all red and MAGA-ish.

Like I said, its extremely rare but certainly not impossible and definitely not illegal in a few states.

Abortion in the 9th month to protect the mental health of a mother is legal in a few states.

This is a fact.

Hercules56 · 17th September 2023, 02:25 PM

While part of me agrees with the decision to overturn roe v Wade and allow each state to decide for themselves, I hope the abortion issue does galvanize enough women to help Trump lose the election. I don't want Trump having the power to pass a new law making abortion illegal after 2 months.

Norman Alexander · 17th September 2023, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fact-ch...-of-pregnancy/

Abortions in the 9th month are apparently not the fantasy that some make it out to be. Obviously very rare, but still possible and some docs will do it and some states allow it.

Who made it out to be a fantasy? The only "fantasy" is the raging GOP narrative that it is the vast majority of abortions when it is actually exceedingly rare. It comes from the same warped minds who spouted the sick-but-hilarious Trumpian nonsense of "abortion after birth".

gnome · 17th September 2023, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fact-ch...-of-pregnancy/

Abortions in the 9th month are apparently not the fantasy that some make it out to be. Obviously very rare, but still possible and some docs will do it and some states allow it.

And would these very rare examples be for reasons anyone with half a brain would want to restrict?

Skeptic Ginger · 17th September 2023, 04:38 PM

Republican talking point Trump repeats:

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Wow, I found an abortion clinic in New York that talks about abortions even in the 9th month.

https://eastsidegynecology.com/blog/...-get-abortion/

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

You're being disingenuous. The site discusses the different types of abortion including two that are used for full-term pregnancies. Full-term abortions may be used when the fetus dies in utero. if the baby is alive, no doctor is going to perform a full-term abortion, they'll perform a C-section or induce labor. Women do NOT go full term and then just decide they don't want the baby and have an abortion.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Why "wow"? You sound surprised. Did you read what they said about that situation? That it is exceptionally rare and only needed for extremely serious medical situations? Or did your brain stop at the "9 months" bit and then turn all red and MAGA-ish.

Originally Posted by Hercules56

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fact-ch...-of-pregnancy/

Abortions in the 9th month are apparently not the fantasy that some make it out to be. Obviously very rare, but still possible and some docs will do it and some states allow it.

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Like I said, its extremely rare but certainly not impossible and definitely not illegal in a few states.

Abortion in the 9th month to protect the mental health of a mother is legal in a few states.

This is a fact.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Who made it out to be a fantasy? The only "fantasy" is the raging GOP narrative that it is the vast majority of abortions when it is actually exceedingly rare. It comes from the same warped minds who spouted the sick-but-hilarious Trumpian nonsense of "abortion after birth".

The morons repeating this nonsense that babies are murdered in the 9th month because the law says it is legal are being willfully blind to the facts.

The way some people here are describing it is disingenuous, deceitful, purposefully distorted and using a cherry picked argument that it is allowed without considering how and when it is allowed.

The left repeating "it's rare" feeds the sound-bite liars. I know you all hate it when I say it but stop with the narrative "it's rare". That bit is cherry picked out of your comments no matter how carefully you describe/explain why or how it is ever done.

Sometimes a pregnancy needs to be terminated when there is a viable fetus after ~7 months when the pregnancy threatens the mother and/or the fetus (examples placenta abruption, preeclampsia with uncontrollable hypertensive crisis, severe trauma requiring terminating the pregnancy, ruptured membranes, etc).

When that happens every effort is made to keep the fetus>now an infant alive. Fetuses are not killed and aborted. Rather, emergency C-sections are performed. Sometimes a fetus in the third month is delivered because of premature labor; in that case a vaginal delivery is unavoidable.

The cutoff for successful birth of a premie keeps getting smaller. When the right intensive care options are available babies born that were just under 9 ounces have survived.

'World's smallest' surviving premature baby released from US hospital

Quote:

A baby born weighing just 245g (8.6oz), believed to be the tiniest on record to survive premature birth, has been discharged from hospital in the US.

(Some argue the millions spent on these preemies could save a lot more children, but I digress.)

No doctor or nurse midwife would kill a viable outside the womb fetus in order to perform an abortion. No hospital or birth center would allow it. The only reason a law might not be specific about when an abortion is no longer allowed is because that would again be legislators practicing medicine without a license. Legislators know full well viable infants are not killed. Even if a mother didn't want the child it would not be delivered early for that reason. Rather the pregnancy would continue and after birth the baby put up for adoption. THAT'S COMMON SENSE UNLESS YOU ARE AN ALT-RIGHT IDIOT WHO SUCCUMBED TO THE MYTH VIABLE BABIES ARE MURDERED, or unless you are that politician like Trump repeating the myth for political purposes.

Trebuchet · 17th September 2023, 04:59 PM

Very appropriate use of highlighting above.

Stacyhs · 17th September 2023, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Like I said, its extremely rare but certainly not impossible and definitely not illegal in a few states.

Abortion in the 9th month to protect the mental health of a mother is legal in a few states.

This is a fact.

No, it is not a fact nor is it legal. No doctor*is going to kill a perfectly viable, full term baby. If the mother's mental health is that bad, a doctor would induce labor or perform a C-section delivering a live baby.

Stacyhs · 17th September 2023, 05:08 PM

Anyone who would still vote for Trump in 2024 is just stupid enough to believe this lie that Trump keeps repeating. He knows his audience: dumb as a box of rocks.

Norman Alexander · 17th September 2023, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Anyone who would still vote for Trump in 2024 is just stupid enough to believe this lie that Trump keeps repeating. He His handlers and wranglers knows his audience: dumb as a box of rocks.

They just coach him what to say. Trump is also dumb as a box of rocks. So it's a whole field of boxes of rocks talking at each other.

Stacyhs · 17th September 2023, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

They just coach him what to say. Trump is also dumb as a box of rocks. So it's a whole field of boxes of rocks talking at each other.

I don't think Trump listens to anything anybody tells him, or he'd just keep his mouth shut. After all, as the consummate narcissist, he knows better about everything than anyone else so why listen to them?

Norman Alexander · 17th September 2023, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I don't think Trump listens to anything anybody tells him, or he'd just keep his mouth shut. After all, as the consummate narcissist, he knows better about everything than anyone else so why listen to them?

Although I'm sure I can hear the screams in the background from his coaches whenever he is being interviewed: "DON'T SAY THAT! DON'T BRING THAT UP! OH GAWD! NO! NO! NO! Oh you MORON!"

gnome · 17th September 2023, 07:37 PM

Followed by: "Huh. None of his supporters cared. Go on, I guess?" *throws up hands*

Stacyhs · 17th September 2023, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Although I'm sure I can hear the screams in the background from his coaches whenever he is being interviewed: "DON'T SAY THAT! DON'T BRING THAT UP! OH GAWD! NO! NO! NO! Oh you MORON!"

Those would be his lawyers, not coaches.

Donal · 18th September 2023, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Like I said, its extremely rare but certainly not impossible and definitely not illegal in a few states.

Yes, in medical emergency. Why are you against that? Who has claimed otherwise?

Quote:

Abortion in the 9th month to protect the mental health of a mother is legal in a few states.

This is a fact.

Well, then it should be easy for you to support that with some evidence.

Hercules56 · 24th September 2023, 01:40 PM

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trou...y?id=103436611

Trump ahead of Biden by 10 points in ABC News poll.

Uggg.

Hercules56 · 24th September 2023, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Donal

Yes, in medical emergency. Why are you against that? Who has claimed otherwise?

Well, then it should be easy for you to support that with some evidence.

It is a fact that several states allow abortion at any time. No time limit whatsoever.

https://www.axios.com/2022/05/14/abo...-supreme-court

Trebuchet · 24th September 2023, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I don't think Trump listens to anything anybody tells him, or he'd just keep his mouth shut. After all, as the consummate narcissist, he knows better about everything than anyone else so why listen to them?

He doesn't listen, as such, but he hears and then thinks he came up with the stupidest bits himself.

sir drinks-a-lot · 24th September 2023, 03:41 PM

Stacyhs · 24th September 2023, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

It is a fact that several states allow abortion at any time. No time limit whatsoever.

https://www.axios.com/2022/05/14/abo...-supreme-court

You've had it pointed out several times that the states with no time limit does NOT mean a woman can walk into a clinic full term and she'll get an abortion simply because she decides she doesn't want a baby. No ethical doctor is going to kill a full term baby for that reason. If the woman is in distress physically or mentally, the birth would be induced or a C-section would be performed. Just stop this nonsense. It's just so intellectually dishonest.

gnome · 24th September 2023, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trou...y?id=103436611

Trump ahead of Biden by 10 points in ABC News poll.

Uggg.

I'm a little worried about their sampling methodology. If I read right they're seeking results by an even split between Democrats and Republicans and then the rest identifying with neither. I feel like that could oversample one party if there's a variance in the general population.

Wouldn't it make more sense to try to capture the general population without regard to existing political affiliation?

Stacyhs · 24th September 2023, 06:27 PM

I learned from the 2016 election not to pay attention to polls.

TragicMonkey · 24th September 2023, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I learned from the 2016 election not to pay attention to polls.

That's nothing, some people learned in the 2020 election not to pay attention to election results!

Hercules56 · 24th September 2023, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

You've had it pointed out several times that the states with no time limit does NOT mean a woman can walk into a clinic full term and she'll get an abortion simply because she decides she doesn't want a baby. No ethical doctor is going to kill a full term baby for that reason. If the woman is in distress physically or mentally, the birth would be induced or a C-section would be performed. Just stop this nonsense. It's just so intellectually dishonest.

Interesting, cuz I am reading that Dilation & Extraction can be performed safely up to 28 weeks (the end of the 7th month) and women get 3rd trimester abortions for all sorts of reasons unrelated to saving the mother's life and fetal abnormalities.

Norman Alexander · 24th September 2023, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Those would be his lawyers, not coaches.

Same same.

Stacyhs · 24th September 2023, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Interesting, cuz I am reading that Dilation & Extraction can be performed safely up to 28 weeks (the end of the 7th month)

That doesn't contradict what I said.

Quote:

and women get 3rd trimester abortions for all sorts of reasons unrelated to saving the mother's life and fetal abnormalities.

Is this like when you claimed the NRA did not oppose the 1968 ban on newly manufactured machine guns?

Norman Alexander · 24th September 2023, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Interesting, cuz I am reading that Dilation & Extraction can be performed safely up to 28 weeks (the end of the 7th month) and women get 3rd trimester abortions for all sorts of reasons unrelated to saving the mother's life and fetal abnormalities.

A live baby is potentially viable in the 3rd trimester. So the reason labour is induced, not abortion, is almost certainly due to stillbirth late in pregnancy. The baby has died in the womb for some reason. Stillbirth is not a desired outcome for the vast majority of pregnant women. It is very hard psychologically, for them and their families. Not inducing stillbirth labour leads to serious medical complications including a painful death.

So perhaps you might try reading something else besides evangelical crazy propaganda.

gnome · 24th September 2023, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

women get 3rd trimester abortions for all sorts of reasons unrelated to saving the mother's life and fetal abnormalities.

Isn't that a goalpost move from "right up until birth"?

Some real examples would probably help here.

Orphia Nay · 24th September 2023, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trou...y?id=103436611

Trump ahead of Biden by 10 points in ABC News poll.

Uggg.

The methodology doesn't clarify how many landlines were polled.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/PollVault/...tory?id=145373

It just says as of 2015 it was 665 per 1000.

That many landlines skews results towards the aged, and hence Republicans, I think.

Gulliver Foyle · 25th September 2023, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

The methodology doesn't clarify how many landlines were polled.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/PollVault/...tory?id=145373

It just says as of 2015 it was 665 per 1000.

That many landlines skews results towards the aged, and hence Republicans, I think.

Well, if they're still favouring landlines over mobiles, they're admitting that their samples are unrepresentative. And stating that they only use random phonecalls to create a sample is again massively restricting the pool of people they will be polling, largely because people don't pick up unknown numbers anymore (especially with scam calls being so prevalent).

The best polling companies will use all available means of collecting data, including regular panels and opt in online surveys and find ways to correct for statistical bias, because the bigger and more diverse a sample size, the better the polling.

ABC have instead stuck to outdated methods which will ensure that their polls will skew older, whiter and more suburban/rural than the general population. Which will skew their poll in favour of MAGAts.

The Don · 25th September 2023, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trou...y?id=103436611

Trump ahead of Biden by 10 points in ABC News poll.

Uggg.

It's entirely unsurprising IMO.

For the majority of people, their choice of candidate comes down to gut and emotion rather than an impassionate objective assessment of the candidates.

Too many people don't feel financially better off under Biden's administration. It doesn't matter that a Trump administration would make things far worse for them or that perhaps objectively they are financially better off - they just feel that things are far too expensive.

I know I have a (deserved

) reputation for being a Cassandra but right now I'd say that President Trump is a firm favourite to win in 2024.

The Great Zaganza · 25th September 2023, 02:21 AM

I'm happy with polls going for Trump.

It's much easier to mobilize relucent Dems to vote if they think they might lose, and maybe one or two Republicans will stay home if they think Trump will win anyway.

dirtywick · 25th September 2023, 02:37 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

It's entirely unsurprising IMO.

For the majority of people, their choice of candidate comes down to gut and emotion rather than an impassionate objective assessment of the candidates.

Too many people don't feel financially better off under Biden's administration. It doesn't matter that a Trump administration would make things far worse for them or that perhaps objectively they are financially better off - they just feel that things are far too expensive.

I know I have a (deserved

) reputation for being a Cassandra but right now I'd say that President Trump is a firm favourite to win in 2024.

biden does need to stop talking like the economy is good.

Hercules56 · 25th September 2023, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

A live baby is potentially viable in the 3rd trimester. So the reason labour is induced, not abortion, is almost certainly due to stillbirth late in pregnancy. The baby has died in the womb for some reason. Stillbirth is not a desired outcome for the vast majority of pregnant women. It is very hard psychologically, for them and their families. Not inducing stillbirth labour leads to serious medical complications including a painful death.

So perhaps you might try reading something else besides evangelical crazy propaganda.

I only read and post legit sources of info.

Hercules56 · 25th September 2023, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

Isn't that a goalpost move from "right up until birth"?

Some real examples would probably help here.

I have never said "right up until birth".

Hercules56 · 25th September 2023, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

That doesn't contradict what I said.

Is this like when you claimed the NRA did not oppose the 1968 ban on newly manufactured machine guns?

I never made any claims regarding the 1968 gun law, and that is definitely not the topic we are discussing here.

gnome · 25th September 2023, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I have never said "right up until birth".

I checked again, you are correct. I may have been mixing up two different conversations.

It's a side point anyway. The main thing is not whether 9th months abortions happen, but WHY, and whether there is any reason to object in those cases.

Hercules56 · 25th September 2023, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

I checked again, you are correct. I may have been mixing up two different conversations.

It's a side point anyway. The main thing is not whether 9th months abortions happen, but WHY, and whether there is any reason to object in those cases.

Abortion means the fetus is killed and removed. I think there is a compelling state and societal interest in saving the life of the fetus, if possible, after a certain point. Some would say 24 week, some say 20 weeks, whatever. But clearly by 28 weeks the fetus should be delivered either by C-section or induced labor, rather than abortion.

Unless of course if inducing labor or C-section will kill the mother or cause physical harm.

However it is documented that some women do get late-term abortions during the third trimester for reasons other than to protect their life or health or the baby is deformed. It is my belief that fetuses after the 28th week should be removed alive and put up for adoption if possible, if the mother does not want it. At a certain point of development a fetus should have the right to live if it can survive outside the womb with a good chance of success.

First trimester abortions? Go ahead, feel free.

17th September 2023, 01:54 PM	#202
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 15,743	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Wow, I found an abortion clinic in New York that talks about abortions even in the 9th month. https://eastsidegynecology.com/blog/...-get-abortion/ Why "wow"? You sound surprised. Did you read what they said about that situation? That it is exceptionally rare and only needed for extremely serious medical situations? Or did your brain stop at the "9 months" bit and then turn all red and MAGA-ish.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th September 2023, 02:20 PM	#203
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fact-ch...-of-pregnancy/ Abortions in the 9th month are apparently not the fantasy that some make it out to be. Obviously very rare, but still possible and some docs will do it and some states allow it.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

17th September 2023, 02:22 PM	#204
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Why "wow"? You sound surprised. Did you read what they said about that situation? That it is exceptionally rare and only needed for extremely serious medical situations? Or did your brain stop at the "9 months" bit and then turn all red and MAGA-ish. Like I said, its extremely rare but certainly not impossible and definitely not illegal in a few states. Abortion in the 9th month to protect the mental health of a mother is legal in a few states. This is a fact.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

17th September 2023, 02:25 PM	#205
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	While part of me agrees with the decision to overturn roe v Wade and allow each state to decide for themselves, I hope the abortion issue does galvanize enough women to help Trump lose the election. I don't want Trump having the power to pass a new law making abortion illegal after 2 months.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

17th September 2023, 02:26 PM	#206
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 15,743	Originally Posted by Hercules56 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fact-ch...-of-pregnancy/ Abortions in the 9th month are apparently not the fantasy that some make it out to be. Obviously very rare, but still possible and some docs will do it and some states allow it. Who made it out to be a fantasy? The only "fantasy" is the raging GOP narrative that it is the vast majority of abortions when it is actually exceedingly rare. It comes from the same warped minds who spouted the sick-but-hilarious Trumpian nonsense of "abortion after birth".
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th September 2023, 01:47 PM	#201
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Wow, I found an abortion clinic in New York that talks about abortions even in the 9th month. https://eastsidegynecology.com/blog/...-get-abortion/ You're being disingenuous. The site discusses the different types of abortion including two that are used for full-term pregnancies. Full-term abortions may be used when the fetus dies in utero. if the baby is alive, no doctor is going to perform a full-term abortion, they'll perform a C-section or induce labor. Women do NOT go full term and then just decide they don't want the baby and have an abortion.

17th September 2023, 02:26 PM	#207
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,317	Originally Posted by Hercules56 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fact-ch...-of-pregnancy/ Abortions in the 9th month are apparently not the fantasy that some make it out to be. Obviously very rare, but still possible and some docs will do it and some states allow it. And would these very rare examples be for reasons anyone with half a brain would want to restrict?
	__________________

17th September 2023, 04:38 PM	#208
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 95,218	Republican talking point Trump repeats: Originally Posted by Hercules56 Wow, I found an abortion clinic in New York that talks about abortions even in the 9th month. https://eastsidegynecology.com/blog/...-get-abortion/ Originally Posted by Stacyhs You're being disingenuous. The site discusses the different types of abortion including two that are used for full-term pregnancies. Full-term abortions may be used when the fetus dies in utero. if the baby is alive, no doctor is going to perform a full-term abortion, they'll perform a C-section or induce labor. Women do NOT go full term and then just decide they don't want the baby and have an abortion. Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Why "wow"? You sound surprised. Did you read what they said about that situation? That it is exceptionally rare and only needed for extremely serious medical situations? Or did your brain stop at the "9 months" bit and then turn all red and MAGA-ish. Originally Posted by Hercules56 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fact-ch...-of-pregnancy/ Abortions in the 9th month are apparently not the fantasy that some make it out to be. Obviously very rare, but still possible and some docs will do it and some states allow it. Originally Posted by Hercules56 Like I said, its extremely rare but certainly not impossible and definitely not illegal in a few states. Abortion in the 9th month to protect the mental health of a mother is legal in a few states. This is a fact. Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Who made it out to be a fantasy? The only "fantasy" is the raging GOP narrative that it is the vast majority of abortions when it is actually exceedingly rare. It comes from the same warped minds who spouted the sick-but-hilarious Trumpian nonsense of "abortion after birth". The morons repeating this nonsense that babies are murdered in the 9th month because the law says it is legal are being willfully blind to the facts. The way some people here are describing it is disingenuous, deceitful, purposefully distorted and using a cherry picked argument that it is allowed without considering how and when it is allowed. The left repeating "it's rare" feeds the sound-bite liars. I know you all hate it when I say it but stop with the narrative "it's rare". That bit is cherry picked out of your comments no matter how carefully you describe/explain why or how it is ever done. Sometimes a pregnancy needs to be terminated when there is a viable fetus after ~7 months when the pregnancy threatens the mother and/or the fetus (examples placenta abruption, preeclampsia with uncontrollable hypertensive crisis, severe trauma requiring terminating the pregnancy, ruptured membranes, etc). When that happens every effort is made to keep the fetus>now an infant alive. Fetuses are not killed and aborted. Rather, emergency C-sections are performed. Sometimes a fetus in the third month is delivered because of premature labor; in that case a vaginal delivery is unavoidable. The cutoff for successful birth of a premie keeps getting smaller. When the right intensive care options are available babies born that were just under 9 ounces have survived. 'World's smallest' surviving premature baby released from US hospital Quote: A baby born weighing just 245g (8.6oz), believed to be the tiniest on record to survive premature birth, has been discharged from hospital in the US. (Some argue the millions spent on these preemies could save a lot more children, but I digress.) No doctor or nurse midwife would kill a viable outside the womb fetus in order to perform an abortion. No hospital or birth center would allow it. The only reason a law might not be specific about when an abortion is no longer allowed is because that would again be legislators practicing medicine without a license. Legislators know full well viable infants are not killed. Even if a mother didn't want the child it would not be delivered early for that reason. Rather the pregnancy would continue and after birth the baby put up for adoption. THAT'S COMMON SENSE UNLESS YOU ARE AN ALT-RIGHT IDIOT WHO SUCCUMBED TO THE MYTH VIABLE BABIES ARE MURDERED, or unless you are that politician like Trump repeating the myth for political purposes.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 17th September 2023 at 05:04 PM.

17th September 2023, 04:59 PM	#209
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 37,744	Very appropriate use of highlighting above.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

17th September 2023, 05:04 PM	#210
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Like I said, its extremely rare but certainly not impossible and definitely not illegal in a few states. Abortion in the 9th month to protect the mental health of a mother is legal in a few states. This is a fact. No, it is not a fact nor is it legal. No doctor*is going to kill a perfectly viable, full term baby. If the mother's mental health is that bad, a doctor would induce labor or perform a C-section delivering a live baby.

17th September 2023, 05:08 PM	#211
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Anyone who would still vote for Trump in 2024 is just stupid enough to believe this lie that Trump keeps repeating. He knows his audience: dumb as a box of rocks.

17th September 2023, 06:24 PM	#212
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 15,743	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Anyone who would still vote for Trump in 2024 is just stupid enough to believe this lie that Trump keeps repeating. He His handlers and wranglers knows his audience: dumb as a box of rocks. They just coach him what to say. Trump is also dumb as a box of rocks. So it's a whole field of boxes of rocks talking at each other.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th September 2023, 06:27 PM	#213
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander They just coach him what to say. Trump is also dumb as a box of rocks. So it's a whole field of boxes of rocks talking at each other. I don't think Trump listens to anything anybody tells him, or he'd just keep his mouth shut. After all, as the consummate narcissist, he knows better about everything than anyone else so why listen to them?

17th September 2023, 06:52 PM	#214
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 15,743	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I don't think Trump listens to anything anybody tells him, or he'd just keep his mouth shut. After all, as the consummate narcissist, he knows better about everything than anyone else so why listen to them? Although I'm sure I can hear the screams in the background from his coaches whenever he is being interviewed: "DON'T SAY THAT! DON'T BRING THAT UP! OH GAWD! NO! NO! NO! Oh you MORON!"
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th September 2023, 07:37 PM	#215
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,317	Followed by: "Huh. None of his supporters cared. Go on, I guess?" throws up hands
	__________________

17th September 2023, 11:35 PM	#216
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Although I'm sure I can hear the screams in the background from his coaches whenever he is being interviewed: "DON'T SAY THAT! DON'T BRING THAT UP! OH GAWD! NO! NO! NO! Oh you MORON!" Those would be his lawyers, not coaches.

18th September 2023, 07:36 AM	#217
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,898	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Like I said, its extremely rare but certainly not impossible and definitely not illegal in a few states. Yes, in medical emergency. Why are you against that? Who has claimed otherwise? Quote: Abortion in the 9th month to protect the mental health of a mother is legal in a few states. This is a fact. Well, then it should be easy for you to support that with some evidence.
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,898	__________________ SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense

24th September 2023, 01:40 PM	#218
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trou...y?id=103436611 Trump ahead of Biden by 10 points in ABC News poll. Uggg.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

24th September 2023, 01:44 PM	#219
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by Donal Yes, in medical emergency. Why are you against that? Who has claimed otherwise? Well, then it should be easy for you to support that with some evidence. It is a fact that several states allow abortion at any time. No time limit whatsoever. https://www.axios.com/2022/05/14/abo...-supreme-court
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

24th September 2023, 02:43 PM	#220
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 37,744	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I don't think Trump listens to anything anybody tells him, or he'd just keep his mouth shut. After all, as the consummate narcissist, he knows better about everything than anyone else so why listen to them? He doesn't listen, as such, but he hears and then thinks he came up with the stupidest bits himself.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

24th September 2023, 03:41 PM	#221
sir drinks-a-lot Philosopher Join Date: May 2004 Location: Cole Valley, CA Posts: 5,226
	__________________ I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln

24th September 2023, 06:02 PM	#222
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by Hercules56 It is a fact that several states allow abortion at any time. No time limit whatsoever. https://www.axios.com/2022/05/14/abo...-supreme-court You've had it pointed out several times that the states with no time limit does NOT mean a woman can walk into a clinic full term and she'll get an abortion simply because she decides she doesn't want a baby. No ethical doctor is going to kill a full term baby for that reason. If the woman is in distress physically or mentally, the birth would be induced or a C-section would be performed. Just stop this nonsense. It's just so intellectually dishonest.

24th September 2023, 06:24 PM	#223
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,317	Originally Posted by Hercules56 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trou...y?id=103436611 Trump ahead of Biden by 10 points in ABC News poll. Uggg. I'm a little worried about their sampling methodology. If I read right they're seeking results by an even split between Democrats and Republicans and then the rest identifying with neither. I feel like that could oversample one party if there's a variance in the general population. Wouldn't it make more sense to try to capture the general population without regard to existing political affiliation?
	__________________

24th September 2023, 06:27 PM	#224
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	I learned from the 2016 election not to pay attention to polls.

24th September 2023, 06:31 PM	#225
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 67,160	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I learned from the 2016 election not to pay attention to polls. That's nothing, some people learned in the 2020 election not to pay attention to election results!
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

24th September 2023, 06:57 PM	#226
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by Stacyhs You've had it pointed out several times that the states with no time limit does NOT mean a woman can walk into a clinic full term and she'll get an abortion simply because she decides she doesn't want a baby. No ethical doctor is going to kill a full term baby for that reason. If the woman is in distress physically or mentally, the birth would be induced or a C-section would be performed. Just stop this nonsense. It's just so intellectually dishonest. Interesting, cuz I am reading that Dilation & Extraction can be performed safely up to 28 weeks (the end of the 7th month) and women get 3rd trimester abortions for all sorts of reasons unrelated to saving the mother's life and fetal abnormalities.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

24th September 2023, 07:01 PM	#227
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 15,743	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Those would be his lawyers, not coaches. Same same.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

24th September 2023, 07:06 PM	#228
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Interesting, cuz I am reading that Dilation & Extraction can be performed safely up to 28 weeks (the end of the 7th month) That doesn't contradict what I said. Quote: and women get 3rd trimester abortions for all sorts of reasons unrelated to saving the mother's life and fetal abnormalities. Is this like when you claimed the NRA did not oppose the 1968 ban on newly manufactured machine guns?

24th September 2023, 07:35 PM	#229
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 15,743	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Interesting, cuz I am reading that Dilation & Extraction can be performed safely up to 28 weeks (the end of the 7th month) and women get 3rd trimester abortions for all sorts of reasons unrelated to saving the mother's life and fetal abnormalities. A live baby is potentially viable in the 3rd trimester. So the reason labour is induced, not abortion, is almost certainly due to stillbirth late in pregnancy. The baby has died in the womb for some reason. Stillbirth is not a desired outcome for the vast majority of pregnant women. It is very hard psychologically, for them and their families. Not inducing stillbirth labour leads to serious medical complications including a painful death. So perhaps you might try reading something else besides evangelical crazy propaganda.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

24th September 2023, 07:45 PM	#230
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,317	Originally Posted by Hercules56 women get 3rd trimester abortions for all sorts of reasons unrelated to saving the mother's life and fetal abnormalities. Isn't that a goalpost move from "right up until birth"? Some real examples would probably help here.
	__________________

24th September 2023, 07:56 PM	#231
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 43,417	Originally Posted by Hercules56 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trou...y?id=103436611 Trump ahead of Biden by 10 points in ABC News poll. Uggg. The methodology doesn't clarify how many landlines were polled. https://abcnews.go.com/US/PollVault/...tory?id=145373 It just says as of 2015 it was 665 per 1000. That many landlines skews results towards the aged, and hence Republicans, I think.

25th September 2023, 12:00 AM	#232
Gulliver Foyle Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 2,503	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay The methodology doesn't clarify how many landlines were polled. https://abcnews.go.com/US/PollVault/...tory?id=145373 It just says as of 2015 it was 665 per 1000. That many landlines skews results towards the aged, and hence Republicans, I think. Well, if they're still favouring landlines over mobiles, they're admitting that their samples are unrepresentative. And stating that they only use random phonecalls to create a sample is again massively restricting the pool of people they will be polling, largely because people don't pick up unknown numbers anymore (especially with scam calls being so prevalent). The best polling companies will use all available means of collecting data, including regular panels and opt in online surveys and find ways to correct for statistical bias, because the bigger and more diverse a sample size, the better the polling. ABC have instead stuck to outdated methods which will ensure that their polls will skew older, whiter and more suburban/rural than the general population. Which will skew their poll in favour of MAGAts.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

25th September 2023, 12:29 AM	#233
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 37,011	Originally Posted by Hercules56 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trou...y?id=103436611 Trump ahead of Biden by 10 points in ABC News poll. Uggg. It's entirely unsurprising IMO. For the majority of people, their choice of candidate comes down to gut and emotion rather than an impassionate objective assessment of the candidates. Too many people don't feel financially better off under Biden's administration. It doesn't matter that a Trump administration would make things far worse for them or that perhaps objectively they are financially better off - they just feel that things are far too expensive. I know I have a (deserved ) reputation for being a Cassandra but right now I'd say that President Trump is a firm favourite to win in 2024.

25th September 2023, 02:21 AM	#234
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 20,803	I'm happy with polls going for Trump. It's much easier to mobilize relucent Dems to vote if they think they might lose, and maybe one or two Republicans will stay home if they think Trump will win anyway.
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

25th September 2023, 02:37 AM	#235
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,858	Originally Posted by The Don It's entirely unsurprising IMO. For the majority of people, their choice of candidate comes down to gut and emotion rather than an impassionate objective assessment of the candidates. Too many people don't feel financially better off under Biden's administration. It doesn't matter that a Trump administration would make things far worse for them or that perhaps objectively they are financially better off - they just feel that things are far too expensive. I know I have a (deserved ) reputation for being a Cassandra but right now I'd say that President Trump is a firm favourite to win in 2024. biden does need to stop talking like the economy is good.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,858