New Zealand Politics, the Ardern years

[Samson]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I don't, and never have identified as a skeptic or so-called skeptic.

I'm an atheist.

Not many atheists in the USA,

The Pew Religious Landscape survey reported that as of 2014, 22.8% of the U.S. population is religiously unaffiliated, atheists made up 3.1% and agnostics made up 4% of the U.S. population.

Discussing the politics of Ardern may be a challenge for the huge majority who believe in magic.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Samson

Discussing the politics of Ardern may be a challenge for the huge majority who believe in magic.

It's not even that - not many christians here - it's just complete ignorance of the country, the people, the history and the politics.

We live in one of the nicest countries on the planet - beautifully temperate climate, surrounded by bountiful seas, peopled by people who are mostly pretty decent. We have excellent natural resources and a budget 90% of the world would love to have. We consistently rate in the top ten out of 200+ countries on a wide range of metrics.

Yet, thanks to completely inept and gutless politicians we have things going on that should only be happening in the darkest Third World: https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...or-160-per-bed

I spoke to two business owners this morning. Between them they employ 680 staff, and they are disgusted by Ardern and the government. They consider her the worst PM for business they've ever known, and they both go back to the dark days of Piggy.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

It's not even that - not many christians here - it's just complete ignorance of the country, the people, the history and the politics.

We live in one of the nicest countries on the planet - beautifully temperate climate, surrounded by bountiful seas, peopled by people who are mostly pretty decent. We have excellent natural resources and a budget 90% of the world would love to have. We consistently rate in the top ten out of 200+ countries on a wide range of metrics.

Yet, thanks to completely inept and gutless politicians we have things going on that should only be happening in the darkest Third World: https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...or-160-per-bed

I spoke to two business owners this morning. Between them they employ 680 staff, and they are disgusted by Ardern and the government. They consider her the worst PM for business they've ever known, and they both go back to the dark days of Piggy.

What are their chief concerns?
I doubt they see a deluge of tax free capital gains and the state paying the rent shortfall to tenants so landlords increase rents with no risk of empty dwellings as being anti business?

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Samson

What are their chief concerns?

Mortgage rates discouraging investment in business.
The rise in minimum wage.
Doubling sick leave.
Additional Stat Day.
Removal of trial periods.
Rent increases putting pressure on wages.
New FBT rules.
Inability to source expert staff.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Mortgage rates discouraging investment in business.
The rise in minimum wage.
Doubling sick leave.
Additional Stat Day.
Removal of trial periods.
Rent increases putting pressure on wages.
New FBT rules.
Inability to source expert staff.

I agree on cost of labour.
A bunch of young people do not need high wages to flat together, the concept of living wage is designed for single income nuclear probably renting.
The sick leave is expected to be used by a plethora who will rationalise the far better deal the business owner has in the scheme of things.
Rent increases are the scourge this new age of property managers impose.
FBT rules?
Staffing is tied to many issues and only a population freeze can set a global example from a perfectly located principality to preach that doubling human biomass while halving all other animal biomass in 50 years is a reason to get the pied piper back.

[The Atheist]

This is just beautiful.

Thanks to rapidly rising rents (at a time of historical low mortgage rates) the lowest income groups are facing inflation at almost three times the average: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/mon...rners-stats-nz

This is why it's so important to have house prices not included in inflation data.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

It's not even that - not many christians here - it's just complete ignorance of the country, the people, the history and the politics.

Somebody is ignorant, that's for sure...

Originally Posted by The Atheist

We consistently rate in the top ten out of 200+ countries on a wide range of metrics.

Yet, thanks to completely inept and gutless politicians...

International rankings of New Zealand

Quote:

Ease Of Doing Business Index, ranked 1st overall in 2019 out of 185 countries, 1st in the sub-categories of Starting a Business and Getting Credit.

Political freedom ratings – Free; political rights and civil liberties both rated 1 (the highest score available)

Corruption – Least corrupt, at 9.4 on Corruption Perceptions Index

Economic Freedom – 4th freest, at 82.1 on Index of Economic Freedom, and 3rd, at 8.28 on Economic Freedom of the World index

Ease of doing business, lack of corruption, political and economic freedom. All add up to an economy that is free to operate efficiently through the mechanism of supply and demand, and free of heavy handed interference by politicians whether they be corrupt or well-meaning but incompetent.

But this high status comes at a price - limited ability for government to steer the economy in the direction it thinks is best. Some people think this is a good thing, because they believe 'completely inept and gutless' politicians would only screw it up. Others believe the government should control every aspect of the economy because freedom is slavery (or something like that).

In your call for the government to 'do something' about house prices, it's clear you believe a certain amount of meddling in the economy is sometimes necessary. But would you want a 'completely inept and gutless' government sticking it's fingers into something it obviously isn't competent to handle? I wouldn't.

Perhaps it might make sense if you thought the current government is uniquely incompetent, but the things you are complaining about have been going on through successive governments for many years. So to single out the Arden government for derision smacks of bias - you should just admit that all politicians are 'completely inept and gutless' in your eyes, and not rail against something that will never change.

Quote:

I spoke to two business owners this morning. Between them they employ 680 staff, and they are disgusted by Ardern and the government. They consider her the worst PM for business they've ever known, and they both go back to the dark days of Piggy.

I can only think the people in your anecdote are either so old they are starting to suffer from memory loss, or they have some other reason for making such a ludicrous statement.

Robert Muldoon

Quote:

Muldoon came to power promising to lead "a Government of the ordinary bloke." He appointed himself Minister of Finance. His tenure as Prime Minister was plagued by an economic pattern of stagnation, high inflation, growing unemployment, and high external debts and borrowing. Economic policies of the Muldoon Government included national superannuation, wage and price freezes, industrial incentives, and the Think Big industrial projects...

With Think Big failing to deliver on its promise, Muldoon imposed an incomes policy: a freeze on wages and most prices (items excluded included fresh meat, frozen meat, items sold at auction and "women's fashion clothing other than standard lines"), interest rates and dividends across the country in April 1982. Against this he offered a "sweetener" of a tax cut which cost the New Zealand treasury approximately a billion New Zealand dollars. Ultimately the Wage and Price Freeze, which had been intended only to last for a year, remained in force for nearly two years and was repealed by the incoming Labour Government. Years later, Muldoon admitted that the freeze was a political mistake.

Equating that disaster to the current leadership is just... unbelievably wrong-headed. It makes one wonder what the rationale is - if there even is one.

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I don't, and never have identified as a skeptic or so-called skeptic.

The International Skeptics Forum is supposed to be where we "discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way." A 'skeptic' here is someone who applies 'scientific skepticism', which 'involves the application of skeptical philosophy, critical-thinking skills, and knowledge of science and its methods to empirical claims'.

But good to know that you never identified with that - as I can now summarily dismiss any arguments you have.

Originally Posted by Samson

Not many atheists in the USA,

The Pew Religious Landscape survey reported that as of 2014, 22.8% of the U.S. population is religiously unaffiliated, atheists made up 3.1% and agnostics made up 4% of the U.S. population.

3.1% of 331 million is 10.3 million, approximately twice the population of New Zealand. But what relevance does that statistic have to this thread?

Quote:

Discussing the politics of Ardern may be a challenge for the huge majority who believe in magic.

More irrelevancy. Those who 'believe in magic' are not here (with the possible exception of those who have never identified as skeptics).

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Somebody is ignorant, that's for sure...

And you prove it beyond doubt right here:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

So to single out the Arden government for derision smacks of bias...

A totally ignorant comment, because the reason I'm pointing the blame at Cinderella is because she's the one whose election promises included fixing the very things she's making much worse. She's a liar and hypocrite.
________________________________

And what should be the final nail in the coffin of the Labour Government - evidence that Adrian Orr advised Grant Robertson in January 2020 that further easing would worsen inequality and inflate house prices.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...rice-inflation

Possibly the most telling sentence is this one:

Robertson had initially been sceptical of the link between the Bank’s money printing and high house prices

The Minister of ******* Finance.

Is a moron. (and a gutless, lying prick)

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

It's really sad to see so-called 'skeptics' posting stuff like this as if it was rational discourse. But that's the way it always seems to go with men like you (it's always men). Sooner or later the mask of rationality slips and we see the seething mess behind it.

But hey, congratulations on crapping so hard on this thread that I can't stand the smell.

Any word on what Ardern is actually banning in regard to her promise to ban the stupid pseudo conversion therapy thing, as like the vaccine I think they have been a bit speak before thinking.

[cullennz]

Actually you can probably add Kiwibuild, the trees, the CGT, the end of 90 day trials, losing 3 strikes, no new taxes, extra fuel line to Auckland airport, lowering child poverty to that.

To name but a few.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by cullennz

Actually you can probably add Kiwibuild, the trees,...

Haha! I'd completely forgotten the trees.

Kiwibuild missed its target by 98.4%, which is pretty bad.

The 1B tree project appears to have planted somewhere around 80M trees, so they're only 92% short so far, and I don't think any work's being done on it since Porno Shane-o got kicked out.

It's cost $480M so far, so only $6 a tree - excellent value for money. The Iwi have done nicely out of it, so we can all be proud of that this Waitangi Day.

I'd already covered the others, but always nice to reiterate the points.

[Samson]

3 strikes struck out.
Not necessary, 7 years jail for loving a guardess's cute butt?
Andrew Little was a good justice minister with the CCRC.

[The Atheist]

Sharon Murdoch aces it again: https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/9486...rdoch-cartoons

[Samson]

And now this

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/maori-...TTDJ2X6B4MLUY/

Māori Party co-leader Rawiri Waititi has been booted out of Parliament this afternoon after a dress code scuffle with Speaker Trevor Mallard.

The stoush between Mallard and Waititi is the latest in an ongoing skirmish between the two MPs.

Speaking to media after being ejected for not wearing a traditional Western-style tie.....

This stuns me and I am no fan of Te Reo etc winning the race for attention against English literacy and numeracy, and independently of Trevor Mallard having jettisoned all moral authority over a few decades of disgraceful performance, I am disgusted at this affront to the first inhabitants.

[The Atheist]

Mallard deflecting from the no-confidence vote in him after the $300k defamation debacle is my guess.

Making him Speaker was a joke from the start - he's always been a complete idiot.

[The Atheist]

No question we've reached peak irony when National is lambasting Labour on housing.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...reen-mp-in-miq

[The Atheist]

And after the current Covid cases, the scientists are diverging from Ardern:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-...4BONF33FUVBSM/

Michael Baker & Nick Wilson of Otago Uni are of the opinion the lockdown should have been continued.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

And after the current Covid cases, the scientists are diverging from Ardern:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-...4BONF33FUVBSM/

Michael Baker & Nick Wilson of Otago Uni are of the opinion the lockdown should have been continued.

Two scientists.

But...

Quote:

A Government spokesperson disputed Gorman comments and said the response to the Auckland community cases was consistent with the COVID-19 resurgence plan and identical to the approach taken to the Auckland August outbreak...

She also defended the three-day lockdown against those who said it was a "false alarm".

"I think everyone would agree it was much better to have a 72-hour [lockdown] than make the wrong call and have 72 hours of a community outbreak."...

Bloomfield said it was encouraging that all of the cases have clear epidemiological links. Ardern said she wanted to stress that this was "good news. What this tells us is we don't have a widespread outbreak, but a small chain of transmission which is manageable by our normal contact tracing and testing procedures."

Ardern said there have been close to 23,000 tests taken since the first new community cases were discovered.

And in other news...

Quote:

Epidemiologist Michael Baker said the decision was the right one and, unlike the August cluster, there was a plausible link to the border and no evidence of a widespread community outbreak...

Covid-19 data modelling expert Shaun Hendy said... With only a few secondary cases it did not appear to be playing out like the Auckland August outbreak, he said, though knowing the source would give more certainty that there was no undetected cluster.

Hendy said the use of wastewater testing this time has given extra reassurance.

"That does give us reassurance that we're not missing a large cluster that's out there."

Of course there will always be some scientists who advocate for stronger action, but they don't have to deal with the political fallout.

Your government has managed to get virtually 100% support from the population for strong measures, but push it a little too far and you could get the same backlash that other countries have suffered. I so wish we could have the same rapid contact tracing and epidemiological linking to contain the virus in the US, but that is impossible due to lack of compliance and general apathy.

Every country has to do a balancing act. Some have done it much better than others, but for some people it's never good enough - especially when their leader is a woman.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

...but for some people it's never good enough - especially when their leader is a woman.

Keep piling on to that strawman, mate - one of these days it will explode.

[The Atheist]

How the government can throw $50B at Covid, but nothing at cancer: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...nded-medicines

This situation pre-dates Ardern, but it sure as hell hasn't improved under her.

[Airfix]

The Atheist, these are things we never hear about in the UK, thanks for sharing.

Reading now.

[Samson]

Jacinda Ardern is a lapsed mormon.
There was a family rift over matters like alphabet gender.
However she has betrayed all her voters.
She does not care any more for the homeless.

[Samson]

In fact her voters are farmers who figured she would ditch the green party. However the convoluted scenic route to staying that course means no more gas fired barbecues.

More troubling is her cancelling discussion of the only tax Churchill would employ.

LAND TAX.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Airfix

The Atheist, these are things we never hear about in the UK, thanks for sharing.

Reading now.

Cheers.

These are some of the appalling things that happen here that don't receive widespread reporting elsewhere. That one's a national disgrace.

Still, it's by no means the worst - I'll take the time to explain our insane accident injury v disease laws one day.

Originally Posted by Samson

Jacinda Ardern is a lapsed mormon.

Yeah, she dropped the second M.

Originally Posted by Samson

However she has betrayed all her voters.

Betrayed is a bit soft for where I see it, and I'm one of her voters. Twice.

I'd say it's more like decided to take a **** on her voters while laughing madly about it.

I tell you who else needs a good kick in the pants - the Maori Party.

Instead of arguing about ties, they should be the number one voice attacking the stupid bitch and her Cabinet of Fools, but they're saying nada.

I keep thinking I've woken up in opposite land when I read the news and see National attacking Labour over policies kicked off by John Key.

[Samson]

Ethically Jacinda Ardern is primordial ooze.
She is a cynical and manipulative career woman child.

[The Atheist]

David Seymour nails it yet again, as projected costs to business for Matariki look like being half a billion bucks.

Quote:

This is a perfect example of the Prime Minister doing what's popular versus what's responsible.

Bloody decent of Jacinda to spend the money without once considering the people who will be paying for it*.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...ses-up-to-448m

*Hint for the lunatic fringe - businesses don't hate her because she's a woman, they hate her because she's clueless.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Samson

Ethically Jacinda Ardern is primordial ooze.
She is a cynical and manipulative career woman child.

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I'd say it's more like decided to take a **** on her voters while laughing madly about it.

ADS - Ardern Derangement Syndrome.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

David Seymour nails it yet again, as projected costs to business for Matariki look like being half a billion bucks.

Did you thank we wouldn't check out your link?

Quote:

Government advice suggests the new Matariki public holiday will cost businesses between $377 - $448 million.

But that advice does not include any potential economic benefits from the new public holiday, set to be introduced from next year.

The potential cost was revealed in a written Parliamentary question from ACT leader David Seymour to Workplace Relations Minister Michael Wood.

Wood cautioned that the estimate was "rough" and "came with a range of caveats."

"The estimate does not take into account any potential economic benefits of a new public holiday, which could include; productivity gains arising from the extra rest afforded by the public holiday; increased retail and hospitality demand and; increased tourism demand," Wood said.

"More importantly, the cost does not quantify the social and cultural benefits of recognising and reflecting the indigenous culture of Aotearoa in our schedule of national holidays."

Oh yeah, big scary number - which is actually little more than a guess.

Since the number 'does not take into account any potential economic benefits' it is almost certainly inflated. But let's assume the worst and presume it is correct. Last year New Zealand's Gross Domestic Product was $321 billion - not bad considering that doom and gloom 'experts' predicted your lockdowns would destroy the economy. Out of 366 days in the year, 261 were 'working' days, 104 were 'weekends' and 13 (?) were 'public holidays'. Now I presume that not all businesses in New Zealand close on weekends, so let's be generous and say there was a total of 353 days when a good proportion were open. 321 / 353 = $909 million per day. $448 million is less than half of that, so even in the most pessimistic scenario the loss is less than half a day's income.

Strange how much less of an outrage it 'looks like being' when put into perspective.

And another thing...

Quote:

Labour campaigned on introducing Matariki as New Zealand's 12th public holiday, arguing New Zealand had fewer public holidays than most other rich nations

Yes, it's true - even the US will have more federal holidays than New Zealand this year, and some states have a lot more (Texas has 19).

So instead of attacking the 'stupid bitch and her Cabinet of Fools' you should be applauding your government for going some way towards achieving parity with other affluent nations. But of course that would mean admitting they might have a better idea of how to govern than you do - yeah I know - impossible, right?

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Did you thank we wouldn't check out your link?

Oh yeah, big scary number - which is actually little more than a guess.

Since the number 'does not take into account any potential economic benefits' it is almost certainly inflated. But let's assume the worst and presume it is correct. Last year New Zealand's Gross Domestic Product was $321 billion - not bad considering that doom and gloom 'experts' predicted your lockdowns would destroy the economy. Out of 366 days in the year, 261 were 'working' days, 104 were 'weekends' and 13 (?) were 'public holidays'. Now I presume that not all businesses in New Zealand close on weekends, so let's be generous and say there was a total of 353 days when a good proportion were open. 321 / 353 = $909 million per day. $448 million is less than half of that, so even in the most pessimistic scenario the loss is less than half a day's income.

Strange how much less of an outrage it 'looks like being' when put into perspective.

And another thing...

Yes, it's true - even the US will have more federal holidays than New Zealand this year, and some states have a lot more (Texas has 19).

So instead of attacking the 'stupid bitch and her Cabinet of Fools' you should be applauding your government for going some way towards achieving parity with other affluent nations. But of course that would mean admitting they might have a better idea of how to govern than you do - yeah I know - impossible, right?

2 weeks annual leave leaves you 10 days short of NZ.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Did you thank we wouldn't check out your link?

No, I put it there so people could.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Yes, it's true - even the US will have more federal holidays than New Zealand this year, and some states have a lot more (Texas has 19).

So instead of attacking the 'stupid bitch and her Cabinet of Fools' you should be applauding your government for going some way towards achieving parity with other affluent nations.

False conclusion from false input - quelle surprise.

USA has no mandated amount of paid leave, but I gather the common amount is ten days.

NZ has 20 minimum, plus 12 holidays, for 32 days a year, which looks pretty good against Texas' 29, assuming the employees actually get their ten days on top.

[The Atheist]

Three strikes for Cinderella:

Housing least affordable for at least 17 years (and probably ever)

Home ownership scheme houses a whole 12 families in seven months

Highest income earners pay lowest tax rate, while capital gains tax remains anathema to Labour.

[Airfix]

Ok, despite her policies on gun control and covid control, she has her down side.

I didn't know, before.

Well argued.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Airfix

Ok, despite her policies on gun control and covid control, she has her down side.

I didn't know, before.

Well argued.

Gun laws have no impact on ordinary New Zealanders, but covid does.
She donned a shawl to discourage local terrorism, but would they have put on tight jeans to show empathy for our dress code?
She is a lazy cheat.

[The Atheist]

Another bank calling for capital gains tax: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/mon...mmentator-says

And as NZ brings 11,000 people into quarantine every month (compared with Aussie, taking 10,000/mth with 5x the population) the situation is very near breaking point: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...--nurses-union

[The Atheist]

And just to round out the daily treble - Auckland fourth-least affordable housing in the world.

Which is insane.

The only cities in front of us are Hong Kong, Vancouver and Sydney, all world centres of trade and business. Auckland is neither of those things.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...graphia-report

[Samson]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

And just to round out the daily treble - Auckland fourth-least affordable housing in the world.

Which is insane.

The only cities in front of us are Hong Kong, Vancouver and Sydney, all world centres of trade and business. Auckland is neither of those things.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...graphia-report

Yes
Remember Turangi and Twizel.
Need dwellings drop them on the plots.

NO ONE DIED.

[The Atheist]

Wellington's emergency housing needs increase 300% in the past year.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/124...housing-crisis

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

False conclusion from false input - quelle surprise.

USA has no mandated amount of paid leave,

No, you are drawing a false conclusion from false input, quelle surprise.

The impact on a business of being forced to close on specific days is much different to having a few employees off on holiday at mutually agreed times.

But you knew that of course. Your agenda is clear, and I will continue to call you out on it. Of course as a self confessed non-skeptic I expect you will continue with your intellectually dishonest attempts to discredit any criticism of it too.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

No, you are drawing a false conclusion from false input, quelle surprise.

My apologies.

Here was me thinking the US Government would be correct, but it looks like they are wrong, according to you: https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wo...vacation_leave

They probably have a toll-free number you can call them on to let them know about the cock-up.

[The Atheist]

The human face of the Ardern-engineered housing shortage: https://www.stuff.co.nz/bay-of-plent...uranga-rentals