[Split Thread] Musk, SpaceX and future of Tesla - Page 10

Bogative · 25th August 2023, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Congratulations on also knowing nothing of automotive engineering. Demanding an unworkable and expensive standard is in no way mitigated by pointing out he'd have to sell almost 1.5 million of them at a loss.

Your appeal to false authority just fails.

As opposed to your appeal to a magazine article?

So tell me, based on your years of experience in automotive engineering and manufacturing, design, study and testing, what tolerances and precision standards are workable, affordable and acceptable when it comes to manufacturing a vehicle like cyber truck?

Be specific, please.

TurkeysGhost · 25th August 2023, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by Bogative

As opposed to your appeal to a magazine article?

So tell me, based on your years of experience in automotive engineering and manufacturing, design, study and testing, what tolerances and precision standards are workable, affordable and acceptable when it comes to manufacturing a vehicle like cyber truck?

Be specific, please.

You don't have to be an automobile engineer to know that "all parts" don't have to have a sub 10 micron specification.

The people at Tesla actually responsible for designing and manufacturing this vehicles probably saw this email, did a lazy jerk-off motion at their desk, and promptly ignored it (or leaked it, as at least one did here).

If this standard was actually insisted on the truck would never reach market or would be exorbitantly expensive.

Bogative · 25th August 2023, 05:34 AM

To summarize this flareup of Musk Derangement Syndrome:

Tesla is known for a low standard of manufacturing.
Musk demands a higher standard of manufacturing.
Musk is an idiot for demanding a higher standard of manufacturing.

MDS is real.

TurkeysGhost · 25th August 2023, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by Bogative

To summarize this flareup of Musk Derangement Syndrome:

Tesla is known for low a standard of manufacturing.
Musk demands a higher standard of manufacturing.
Musk is an idiot for demanding a higher standard of manufacturing.

MDS is real.

A guy who doesn't understand how cars are made implementing an idiotic specification doesn't actually improve standards of manufacturing. Quality manufacturing actually requires more than the boss declaring "do it more gooder", believe it or not.

If anything, a top down approach by someone who is clearly out of their depth is a good explanation for why Tesla quality is so sub-par.

tyr_13 · 25th August 2023, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Bogative

As opposed to your appeal to a magazine article?

So tell me, based on your years of experience in automotive engineering and manufacturing, design, study and testing, what tolerances and precision standards are workable, affordable and acceptable when it comes to manufacturing a vehicle like cyber truck?

Be specific, please.

Well first, the article is just quoting Musk and giving some background. I did not rely on it for anything besides the reporting of the fact of the leaked email.

Secondly, when I worked in Quality and Compliance ensuring that as a supplier to the automotive industry were in compliance with customer and supplier standards as well as international industry standards (specifically IATF 16949), it was common to find both over application of diamond dimensions to too tight a tolerance and over application of diamond dimensions themselves. In fact part of my job was getting engineers to review their documents and justify their choices.

Which is why you asking for such specifics is a dead giveaway you haven't thought about this, not really. The tolerances are going to be determined by the needs of the specific application, desired performance, and cost requirements. It is going to be different for each part.

Now you might wonder why I then can say this demanded standard is wrong. This is because the 'line drawing fallacy' is a fallacy. I can't tell you exactly where each line should be drawn for each part, but I can tell for certain that sub 10 micron is so far from any possiblely justified line that you can't even see the line from there. There might be parts in the electric motor that need that, but not the door. Not the windshield mounts. Not the frame.

It's nonsense. Furthermore, having tight tolerance is good when in reality it's only good if you need it to work. Otherwise there is just less room for error.

Myriad · 25th August 2023, 05:49 PM

It's important for Tesla's brand image that stepping on a Cybertruck has to hurt just as much as stepping on a LEGO brick.

dirtywick · 25th August 2023, 07:46 PM

none of their suppliers could hold those kind of tolerances.

TurkeysGhost · 26th August 2023, 04:04 AM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

none of their suppliers could hold those kind of tolerances.

It will be obvious whether or not this decree is followed, because the CyberTruck will never be able to come to market if this standard is actually enforced. (Though it may not come to market for other stupid reasons)

Andy_Ross · 26th August 2023, 05:39 AM

As an idea of the level of precision being asked for.
I 3d print model kit parts and figures at 25 micron resolution.
Average human hair diameter is 50 microns.

Bogative · 26th August 2023, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Now you might wonder why I then can say this demanded standard is wrong. This is because the 'line drawing fallacy' is a fallacy. I can't tell you exactly where each line should be drawn for each part, but I can tell for certain that sub 10 micron is so far from any possiblely justified line that you can't even see the line from there. There might be parts in the electric motor that need that, but not the door. Not the windshield mounts. Not the frame.

It's nonsense. Furthermore, having tight tolerance is good when in reality it's only good if you need it to work. Otherwise there is just less room for error.

Understood, you believe that level of precision is unjustifiable, not impossible. The CEO of the world's most valuable car company sees it differently. I'm no expert but I will side with the guy who is building millions of cars every year.

Andy_Ross · 26th August 2023, 07:56 AM

It's a ridiculous level of precision to try and achieve on a mass produced stamped steel panel. Trying to assemble them to that precision on a mass production car assembly line is ridiculous.

johnny karate · 26th August 2023, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Bogative

Understood, you believe that level of precision is unjustifiable, not impossible. The CEO of the world's most valuable car company sees it differently. I'm no expert but I will side with the guy who is building millions of cars every year.

First, Elon Musk doesn’t build the cars. They hire people to do that.

Second, why do you defer to Musk’s authority just because he’s CEO? What special qualifications and knowledge does that grant him? Plenty of CEOs prove to be inept. Just look at the guy who runs Twitter.

BrettM · 26th August 2023, 09:30 AM

The coefficient of expansion for stainless steel is about 14 x (10^-6 m/(m °C)). A 1.2 metre length of door exposed to sunlight while the rest of the truck is in shade might get 20 degrees C hotter than the surrounding metal. It would expand by 1.2 x 14 x 20 = 336 microns. If the doors had a 10 micron gap between themselves and the frame, they would jam.

When Musk specified a 10 micron tolerance, he was probably referring to the out-of-plane tolerance for the stamped body panel, and not the tolerance of the length or height. Out-of-plane variations on a reflective surface distorts the reflection, and makes it look like a novelty mirror at a funfair!

Andy_Ross · 26th August 2023, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by BrettM

The coefficient of expansion for stainless steel is about 14 x (10^-6 m/(m °C)). A 1.2 metre length of door exposed to sunlight while the rest of the truck is in shade might get 20 degrees C hotter than the surrounding metal. It would expand by 1.2 x 14 x 20 = 336 microns. If the doors had a 10 micron gap between themselves and the frame, they would jam.

When Musk specified a 10 micron tolerance, he was probably referring to the out-of-plane tolerance for the stamped body panel, and not the tolerance of the length or height. Out-of-plane variations on a reflective surface distorts the reflection, and makes it look like a novelty mirror at a funfair!

You think they can keep a panel on a car flat to a tolerance of 10 microns?

BrettM · 26th August 2023, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

You think they can keep a panel on a car flat to a tolerance of 10 microns?

You are right. It might work on thick glass, but not on thin steel.

Stainless steel is the last material I would use to build a car, for a number of reasons.

* It has inferior fatigue resistance to mild steel, so cracks propagate easier.
* Small dings cannot be repaired with a bit of body putty and a coat of paint. You will have to replace the entire panel.
* Any exposure to salt from roads or sea spray will cause corrosion, unless a very high grade (read expensive) stainless steel is used. This problem is made worse if the panel has a brushed finish instead of a polished finish.

Andy_Ross · 26th August 2023, 11:26 AM

A whole panel shouldn't need to be replaced.
There are specialists who can repair and refinish Delorean panels after damage, I would think the same would be possible with the Tesla.
As for fatigue resistance, that depends on the steel used.

dirtywick · 26th August 2023, 11:30 AM

i don't think there's a steel stamping plant in the world that makes parts to the micron.

jimbob · 26th August 2023, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Well first, the article is just quoting Musk and giving some background. I did not rely on it for anything besides the reporting of the fact of the leaked email.

Secondly, when I worked in Quality and Compliance ensuring that as a supplier to the automotive industry were in compliance with customer and supplier standards as well as international industry standards (specifically IATF 16949), it was common to find both over application of diamond dimensions to too tight a tolerance and over application of diamond dimensions themselves. In fact part of my job was getting engineers to review their documents and justify their choices.

Which is why you asking for such specifics is a dead giveaway you haven't thought about this, not really. The tolerances are going to be determined by the needs of the specific application, desired performance, and cost requirements. It is going to be different for each part.

Now you might wonder why I then can say this demanded standard is wrong. This is because the 'line drawing fallacy' is a fallacy. I can't tell you exactly where each line should be drawn for each part, but I can tell for certain that sub 10 micron is so far from any possiblely justified line that you can't even see the line from there. There might be parts in the electric motor that need that, but not the door. Not the windshield mounts. Not the frame.

It's nonsense. Furthermore, having tight tolerance is good when in reality it's only good if you need it to work. Otherwise there is just less room for error.

Exactly

Originally Posted by dirtywick

i don't think there's a steel stamping plant in the world that makes parts to the micron.

Hell, I actually design devices to tighter tolerances but they happen to be Silicon (or now Gallium Nitride) chips. And even they, when they are put into JEDEC-standard packages, have looser tolerances.

Example from a TO-247 package that is common in high voltage (650V transistors) as used in many electric vehicles

https://fscdn.rohm.com/en/products/d...to247_tr-e.pdf

Note that these dimensions are sometimes over 15x looser tolerance than Musk's demanded 10um. And no company will make those any tighter without a very good reason. Given that there would be no benefit and a lot of problems and rejected devices. I hate to think what the cost would be for that.

Bogative · 27th August 2023, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

First, Elon Musk doesn’t build the cars. They hire people to do that.

Whaaaat??? I don't believe you! Next you will be trying to tell me that Musk isn't is on the manufacturing floor at Starlink stuffing satellite dishes into boxes, or that he's not at SpaceX monitoring the life-support systems on the Dragon capsule headed to the ISS. I wasn't convinced before, but I am now, Elon Musk is a terrible CEO.

Roger Ramjets · 27th August 2023, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Ford is popular because their vehicles are an ok quality product at their price point. Consumers are realistic about what they're buying, unlike Musk fanbois who are paying luxury car prices for a below-average quality car.

Anybody who buys a Tesla is a Musk fanboi. Got it.

300,000 electric vehicles were sold in Q2 of this year in the US, 48% more than the same period last year. 175,000 of them (58%) were Teslas. Last year Tesla sold over 1.3 million EVs worldwide. That's an awful lot of 'fanbois'.

Ford recently announced that they are switching to Tesla's charge connector, and several other US car makers followed suit. Seems they are Musk 'fanbois' too!

Quote:

The closest parallel to Musk fanbois are Americans who insist on buying expensive pickup trucks despite having no real ongoing need for one. The Big 3 make a lot of their business selling trucks to people who don't need them, but there's no accounting for taste I suppose.

It's America. Everything is bigger there - the country, vehicles, waistlines. When everybody in the family is obese you need a larger vehicle!

johnny karate · 27th August 2023, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bogative

Whaaaat??? I don't believe you! Next you will be trying to tell me that Musk isn't is on the manufacturing floor at Starlink stuffing satellite dishes into boxes, or that he's not at SpaceX monitoring the life-support systems on the Dragon capsule headed to the ISS. I wasn't convinced before, but I am now, Elon Musk is a terrible CEO.

Your dodge of my question is noted. Baseless appeal to authority confirmed.

Mike! · 27th August 2023, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

"Frunk"?

I'm assuming it's some sort of 'front trunk' storage area, but that may be me simply looking for the obvious when the truth is far more cryptic. It's Musk and Tesla Motors we're talking about here.

Fast Eddie B · 27th August 2023, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

I'm assuming it's some sort of 'front trunk' storage area…

That’s exactly what it is. Most EV’s have trunks front and back, with the front one ranging from minimal to CAVERNOUS. Ford F150 Lightning Frunk:

Of course, the reason for that huge frunk is the truck was designed for an engine up there. Most ground-up truck designs will likely have less frontal are, and so, smaller frunks. Tesla’s CyberTruck frunk, for example:

jimbob · 27th August 2023, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

That’s exactly what it is. Most EV’s have trunks front and back, with the front one ranging from minimal to CAVERNOUS. Ford F150 Lightning Frunk:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ff73eace_z.jpg

Of course, the reason for that huge frunk is the truck was designed for an engine up there. Most ground-up truck designs will likely have less frontal are, and so, smaller frunks. Tesla’s CyberTruck frunk, for example:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...7049fbe5_z.jpg

As an aside, I was chatting with a colleague about beetles (obviously not designed for a front engine, but still looked like it from outside) as we both used to drive them.

The back of his glove compartment had broken, so he sometimes put a full length rolled up umbrella in it, which apparently caused some surprise when he pulled it out.

autumn1971 · 27th August 2023, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

First, Elon Musk doesn’t build the cars. They hire people to do that.

Second, why do you defer to Musk’s authority just because he’s CEO? What special qualifications and knowledge does that grant him? Plenty of CEOs prove to be inept. Just look at the guy who runs Twitter.

Musk is rich; his actual engineers and workers are not as rich. Therefore capitalism makes Musk the smartest, most perfect guy in the room.
(Note, I love capitalism, and this isn’t how it works, but some folks love John Galt and terrible writing.)

TurkeysGhost · 27th August 2023, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

That’s exactly what it is. Most EV’s have trunks front and back, with the front one ranging from minimal to CAVERNOUS. Ford F150 Lightning Frunk:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ff73eace_z.jpg

Of course, the reason for that huge frunk is the truck was designed for an engine up there. Most ground-up truck designs will likely have less frontal are, and so, smaller frunks. Tesla’s CyberTruck frunk, for example:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...7049fbe5_z.jpg

I"m guessing the F150 has such a large frunk because American pickup truck styling right now is all about huge, chisel tip hoods, which look aggressive as hell to appeal to ego-deficient and impotent men, but also creates huge frontal blind spots for the driver.

An EV should allow for a much shorter hood and much, much better lines of sites, but I'm guessing appealing to the American market means putting form before function. At least you get some extra storage out of the deal so it's not totally pointless, but a pickup truck driver being able to see children directly in front of the vehicle would probably be more socially useful.

Andy_Ross · 27th August 2023, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I"m guessing the F150 has such a large frunk because American pickup truck styling right now is all about huge, chisel tip hoods, which look aggressive as hell to appeal to ego-deficient and impotent men, but also creates huge frontal blind spots for the driver.

An EV should allow for a much shorter hood and much, much better lines of sites, but I'm guessing appealing to the American market means putting form before function. At least you get some extra storage out of the deal so it's not totally pointless, but a pickup truck driver being able to see children directly in front of the vehicle would probably be more socially useful.

Why do you hate America?

dirtywick · 27th August 2023, 03:26 PM

then they need to make the front look like a skull or something

Roger Ramjets · 27th August 2023, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I"m guessing the F150 has such a large frunk because American pickup truck styling right now is all about huge, chisel tip hoods, which look aggressive as hell to appeal to ego-deficient and impotent men, but also creates huge frontal blind spots for the driver.

Not just pickup trucks, SUVs too - even the small ones. I will never buy a vehicle with that styling, way too ugly!

OTOH I love the Cybertruck concept designs people have created, particulalry the military ones. That would turn some heads!

The good news is that other car makers are now designing sleeker bodies like Tesla and Nissan did, both for aesthetics and lower drag.

Quote:

a pickup truck driver being able to see children directly in front of the vehicle would probably be more socially useful.

Socially useful, in America? What are you, a communist?

Axxman300 · 27th August 2023, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I"m guessing the F150 has such a large frunk because American pickup truck styling right now is all about huge, chisel tip hoods, which look aggressive as hell to appeal to ego-deficient and impotent men, but also creates huge frontal blind spots for the driver.

That's the stereotype version. Trucks are so huge right now for the same reason Teslas/EVs are selling - tax exemptions. Undersection 179, trucks over 6,000 pounds can be written off of your Federal Income Taxes up top $28,000. Some crafty congress people snuck this into the code, and now there is no reason to make smaller trucks or SUVs. Electric vehicles receive a $7,500 tax break. I doubt they'd sell as well without it. With the $28,000 tax break there's no reason for businesses to look at smaller vehicles.

And just so you know, small trucks are not an option on the new market. Used? Sometimes, but the fact is they don't make light pickups any more. I spent a year looking a small truck to replace my 1993 Nissan D21, ended up buying a 2016 Nissan Frontier, which is as small as they get, but it's twice the size of my old truck.

Haven't run over any kids yet...that I know of...

Fast Eddie B · 27th August 2023, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

Electric vehicles receive a $7,500 tax break. I doubt they'd sell as well without it.

For a few years, Tesla's did not qualify for the $7,500 tax break, and continued to sell quite well. We got the $7,500 credit when we bought our Honda Clarity PHEV in 2018. We got nothing in 2022 when we bought our Tesla Model 3.

But stipulated they do sell somewhat better with tax incentives.

TurkeysGhost · 28th August 2023, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

That's the stereotype version. Trucks are so huge right now for the same reason Teslas/EVs are selling - tax exemptions. Undersection 179, trucks over 6,000 pounds can be written off of your Federal Income Taxes up top $28,000. Some crafty congress people snuck this into the code, and now there is no reason to make smaller trucks or SUVs. Electric vehicles receive a $7,500 tax break. I doubt they'd sell as well without it. With the $28,000 tax break there's no reason for businesses to look at smaller vehicles.

And just so you know, small trucks are not an option on the new market. Used? Sometimes, but the fact is they don't make light pickups any more. I spent a year looking a small truck to replace my 1993 Nissan D21, ended up buying a 2016 Nissan Frontier, which is as small as they get, but it's twice the size of my old truck.

Haven't run over any kids yet...that I know of...

I suppose it's my fault for derailing, but some of this is also laid at the feet of Obama's CAFE standards. Instead of getting the desired effect of improving fuel economy, car manufacturers upsized their vehicles to classify as larger vehicles that had lower standards. There's a reason why small SUVs and small pickups basically don't exist on the US market anymore. Head on over to the Killdozer thread to discuss this more!

That said, the chisel tip hood design seems largely an aesthetic choice that could be easily avoided even with large engine, heavy trucks, and doubly so for EVs that don't need this large front end at all.

Fast Eddie B · 28th August 2023, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

There's a reason why small SUVs and small pickups basically don't exist on the US market anymore.

I guess it depends on how you define "small SUV", but the Toyota RAV 4 and Honda CRV are #3 and #6 respectively in the first list of most popular cars sold in the US I could find, in this case for 2022.

TurkeysGhost · 28th August 2023, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

I guess it depends on how you define "small SUV", but the Toyota RAV 4 and Honda CRV are #3 and #6 respectively in the first list of most popular cars sold in the US I could find, in this case for 2022.

yeah, and they're giants compared to their original versions. That's the thing, many of these companies have continued these model names, but they've grown so much they're entirely different vehicles at this point.

Quote:

The RAV4 arrived in 1994 as one of the world’s first truly compact SUVs, with the three-door model measuring just 3740mm long, 1695mm wide and 1646mm tall - roughly the same size as a current-day Yaris. Over five generations the now five-door-only RAV4 has grown so it’s now almost one-metre longer than the original three-door (860mm to be exact). It’s also 450mm longer than the original five-door RAV4, so it’s not just a case of the extra doors adding to the size.

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...-bigger-and-is

The RAV4 and CRV aren't compact SUVs anymore, despite whatever history that name might imply.

jeremyp · 29th August 2023, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by Bogative

As opposed to your appeal to a magazine article?

So tell me, based on your years of experience in automotive engineering and manufacturing, design, study and testing, what tolerances and precision standards are workable, affordable and acceptable when it comes to manufacturing a vehicle like cyber truck?

Be specific, please.

Stainless steel expands when it gets warmer. I don't know which variety they are using in the Cybertruck but lets' assume it is about 10 micrometres per metre per degree C. Musk has asked for "single digit micron precision". That means, if you have a panel that is 1 metre long, if the temperature goes up by a degree C, it will be out of spec.

Furthermore, the Cybertruck is as ugly as ****. No amount of precision engineering is going to change that.

GlennB · 29th August 2023, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

yeah, and they're giants compared to their original versions. That's the thing, many of these companies have continued these model names, but they've grown so much they're entirely different vehicles at this point.

...

The RAV4 and CRV aren't compact SUVs anymore, despite whatever history that name might imply.

The word 'autobesity' has been coined, at least in the UK. Some cars are getting too big for a standard parking slot

Andy_Ross · 29th August 2023, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

The word 'autobesity' has been coined, at least in the UK. Some cars are getting too big for a standard parking slot

Most have been too big for a standard garage for years.

Trebuchet · 29th August 2023, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

Most have been too big for a standard garage for years.

Your garages are, of course, smaller than ours but most full sized trucks won't fit in an American one any more.

arthwollipot · 29th August 2023, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Your garages are, of course, smaller than ours but most full sized trucks won't fit in an American one any more.

A full sized truck would require a machinery shed, surely?

The Great Zaganza · 29th August 2023, 11:24 PM

Musk's best lasting legacy might be what Starlink is doing for Ukraine in the war against Russia.

25th August 2023, 05:27 AM	#361
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,524	Originally Posted by tyr_13 Congratulations on also knowing nothing of automotive engineering. Demanding an unworkable and expensive standard is in no way mitigated by pointing out he'd have to sell almost 1.5 million of them at a loss. Your appeal to false authority just fails. As opposed to your appeal to a magazine article? So tell me, based on your years of experience in automotive engineering and manufacturing, design, study and testing, what tolerances and precision standards are workable, affordable and acceptable when it comes to manufacturing a vehicle like cyber truck? Be specific, please.
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,524	__________________ "We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.” – Joe Biden October 24, 2020

25th August 2023, 05:31 AM	#362
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 34,736	Originally Posted by Bogative As opposed to your appeal to a magazine article? So tell me, based on your years of experience in automotive engineering and manufacturing, design, study and testing, what tolerances and precision standards are workable, affordable and acceptable when it comes to manufacturing a vehicle like cyber truck? Be specific, please. You don't have to be an automobile engineer to know that "all parts" don't have to have a sub 10 micron specification. The people at Tesla actually responsible for designing and manufacturing this vehicles probably saw this email, did a lazy jerk-off motion at their desk, and promptly ignored it (or leaked it, as at least one did here). If this standard was actually insisted on the truck would never reach market or would be exorbitantly expensive.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 25th August 2023 at 05:35 AM.

25th August 2023, 05:34 AM	#363
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,524	To summarize this flareup of Musk Derangement Syndrome: Tesla is known for a low standard of manufacturing. Musk demands a higher standard of manufacturing. Musk is an idiot for demanding a higher standard of manufacturing. MDS is real.
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,524	__________________ "We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.” – Joe Biden October 24, 2020 Last edited by Bogative; 25th August 2023 at 05:55 AM.

25th August 2023, 05:36 AM	#364
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 34,736	Originally Posted by Bogative To summarize this flareup of Musk Derangement Syndrome: Tesla is known for low a standard of manufacturing. Musk demands a higher standard of manufacturing. Musk is an idiot for demanding a higher standard of manufacturing. MDS is real. A guy who doesn't understand how cars are made implementing an idiotic specification doesn't actually improve standards of manufacturing. Quality manufacturing actually requires more than the boss declaring "do it more gooder", believe it or not. If anything, a top down approach by someone who is clearly out of their depth is a good explanation for why Tesla quality is so sub-par.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

25th August 2023, 05:06 PM	#365
tyr_13 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 17,799	Originally Posted by Bogative As opposed to your appeal to a magazine article? So tell me, based on your years of experience in automotive engineering and manufacturing, design, study and testing, what tolerances and precision standards are workable, affordable and acceptable when it comes to manufacturing a vehicle like cyber truck? Be specific, please. Well first, the article is just quoting Musk and giving some background. I did not rely on it for anything besides the reporting of the fact of the leaked email. Secondly, when I worked in Quality and Compliance ensuring that as a supplier to the automotive industry were in compliance with customer and supplier standards as well as international industry standards (specifically IATF 16949), it was common to find both over application of diamond dimensions to too tight a tolerance and over application of diamond dimensions themselves. In fact part of my job was getting engineers to review their documents and justify their choices. Which is why you asking for such specifics is a dead giveaway you haven't thought about this, not really. The tolerances are going to be determined by the needs of the specific application, desired performance, and cost requirements. It is going to be different for each part. Now you might wonder why I then can say this demanded standard is wrong. This is because the 'line drawing fallacy' is a fallacy. I can't tell you exactly where each line should be drawn for each part, but I can tell for certain that sub 10 micron is so far from any possiblely justified line that you can't even see the line from there. There might be parts in the electric motor that need that, but not the door. Not the windshield mounts. Not the frame. It's nonsense. Furthermore, having tight tolerance is good when in reality it's only good if you need it to work. Otherwise there is just less room for error.
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

25th August 2023, 05:49 PM	#366
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 20,582	It's important for Tesla's brand image that stepping on a Cybertruck has to hurt just as much as stepping on a LEGO brick.
	__________________ "*Except Myriad. Even Cthulhu would give him a pat on the head and an ice cream and send him to the movies while he ended the rest of the world." - Foster Zygote

25th August 2023, 07:46 PM	#367
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,858	none of their suppliers could hold those kind of tolerances.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,858

26th August 2023, 04:04 AM	#368
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 34,736	Originally Posted by dirtywick none of their suppliers could hold those kind of tolerances. It will be obvious whether or not this decree is followed, because the CyberTruck will never be able to come to market if this standard is actually enforced. (Though it may not come to market for other stupid reasons)
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

26th August 2023, 05:39 AM	#369
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 45,531	As an idea of the level of precision being asked for. I 3d print model kit parts and figures at 25 micron resolution. Average human hair diameter is 50 microns.
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

26th August 2023, 06:46 AM	#370
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,524	Originally Posted by tyr_13 Now you might wonder why I then can say this demanded standard is wrong. This is because the 'line drawing fallacy' is a fallacy. I can't tell you exactly where each line should be drawn for each part, but I can tell for certain that sub 10 micron is so far from any possiblely justified line that you can't even see the line from there. There might be parts in the electric motor that need that, but not the door. Not the windshield mounts. Not the frame. It's nonsense. Furthermore, having tight tolerance is good when in reality it's only good if you need it to work. Otherwise there is just less room for error. Understood, you believe that level of precision is unjustifiable, not impossible. The CEO of the world's most valuable car company sees it differently. I'm no expert but I will side with the guy who is building millions of cars every year.
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,524	__________________ "We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.” – Joe Biden October 24, 2020

26th August 2023, 07:56 AM	#371
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 45,531	It's a ridiculous level of precision to try and achieve on a mass produced stamped steel panel. Trying to assemble them to that precision on a mass production car assembly line is ridiculous.
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

26th August 2023, 08:17 AM	#372
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 16,207	Originally Posted by Bogative Understood, you believe that level of precision is unjustifiable, not impossible. The CEO of the world's most valuable car company sees it differently. I'm no expert but I will side with the guy who is building millions of cars every year. First, Elon Musk doesn’t build the cars. They hire people to do that. Second, why do you defer to Musk’s authority just because he’s CEO? What special qualifications and knowledge does that grant him? Plenty of CEOs prove to be inept. Just look at the guy who runs Twitter.

26th August 2023, 09:30 AM	#373
BrettM Thinker Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 139	The coefficient of expansion for stainless steel is about 14 x (10^-6 m/(m °C)). A 1.2 metre length of door exposed to sunlight while the rest of the truck is in shade might get 20 degrees C hotter than the surrounding metal. It would expand by 1.2 x 14 x 20 = 336 microns. If the doors had a 10 micron gap between themselves and the frame, they would jam. When Musk specified a 10 micron tolerance, he was probably referring to the out-of-plane tolerance for the stamped body panel, and not the tolerance of the length or height. Out-of-plane variations on a reflective surface distorts the reflection, and makes it look like a novelty mirror at a funfair!
BrettM Thinker Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 139

26th August 2023, 10:33 AM	#374
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 45,531	Originally Posted by BrettM The coefficient of expansion for stainless steel is about 14 x (10^-6 m/(m °C)). A 1.2 metre length of door exposed to sunlight while the rest of the truck is in shade might get 20 degrees C hotter than the surrounding metal. It would expand by 1.2 x 14 x 20 = 336 microns. If the doors had a 10 micron gap between themselves and the frame, they would jam. When Musk specified a 10 micron tolerance, he was probably referring to the out-of-plane tolerance for the stamped body panel, and not the tolerance of the length or height. Out-of-plane variations on a reflective surface distorts the reflection, and makes it look like a novelty mirror at a funfair! You think they can keep a panel on a car flat to a tolerance of 10 microns?
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

26th August 2023, 11:02 AM	#375
BrettM Thinker Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 139	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross You think they can keep a panel on a car flat to a tolerance of 10 microns? You are right. It might work on thick glass, but not on thin steel. Stainless steel is the last material I would use to build a car, for a number of reasons. * It has inferior fatigue resistance to mild steel, so cracks propagate easier. * Small dings cannot be repaired with a bit of body putty and a coat of paint. You will have to replace the entire panel. * Any exposure to salt from roads or sea spray will cause corrosion, unless a very high grade (read expensive) stainless steel is used. This problem is made worse if the panel has a brushed finish instead of a polished finish.
BrettM Thinker Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 139

26th August 2023, 11:26 AM	#376
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 45,531	A whole panel shouldn't need to be replaced. There are specialists who can repair and refinish Delorean panels after damage, I would think the same would be possible with the Tesla. As for fatigue resistance, that depends on the steel used.
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

26th August 2023, 11:30 AM	#377
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,858	i don't think there's a steel stamping plant in the world that makes parts to the micron.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,858

26th August 2023, 12:48 PM	#378
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 31,029	Originally Posted by tyr_13 Well first, the article is just quoting Musk and giving some background. I did not rely on it for anything besides the reporting of the fact of the leaked email. Secondly, when I worked in Quality and Compliance ensuring that as a supplier to the automotive industry were in compliance with customer and supplier standards as well as international industry standards (specifically IATF 16949), it was common to find both over application of diamond dimensions to too tight a tolerance and over application of diamond dimensions themselves. In fact part of my job was getting engineers to review their documents and justify their choices. Which is why you asking for such specifics is a dead giveaway you haven't thought about this, not really. The tolerances are going to be determined by the needs of the specific application, desired performance, and cost requirements. It is going to be different for each part. Now you might wonder why I then can say this demanded standard is wrong. This is because the 'line drawing fallacy' is a fallacy. I can't tell you exactly where each line should be drawn for each part, but I can tell for certain that sub 10 micron is so far from any possiblely justified line that you can't even see the line from there. There might be parts in the electric motor that need that, but not the door. Not the windshield mounts. Not the frame. It's nonsense. Furthermore, having tight tolerance is good when in reality it's only good if you need it to work. Otherwise there is just less room for error. Exactly Originally Posted by dirtywick i don't think there's a steel stamping plant in the world that makes parts to the micron. Hell, I actually design devices to tighter tolerances but they happen to be Silicon (or now Gallium Nitride) chips. And even they, when they are put into JEDEC-standard packages, have looser tolerances. Example from a TO-247 package that is common in high voltage (650V transistors) as used in many electric vehicles https://fscdn.rohm.com/en/products/d...to247_tr-e.pdf Note that these dimensions are sometimes over 15x looser tolerance than Musk's demanded 10um. And no company will make those any tighter without a very good reason. Given that there would be no benefit and a lot of problems and rejected devices. I hate to think what the cost would be for that.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

27th August 2023, 05:02 AM	#379
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,524	Originally Posted by johnny karate First, Elon Musk doesn’t build the cars. They hire people to do that. Whaaaat??? I don't believe you! Next you will be trying to tell me that Musk isn't is on the manufacturing floor at Starlink stuffing satellite dishes into boxes, or that he's not at SpaceX monitoring the life-support systems on the Dragon capsule headed to the ISS. I wasn't convinced before, but I am now, Elon Musk is a terrible CEO.
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,524	__________________ "We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.” – Joe Biden October 24, 2020

27th August 2023, 07:36 AM	#380
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,652	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Ford is popular because their vehicles are an ok quality product at their price point. Consumers are realistic about what they're buying, unlike Musk fanbois who are paying luxury car prices for a below-average quality car. Anybody who buys a Tesla is a Musk fanboi. Got it. 300,000 electric vehicles were sold in Q2 of this year in the US, 48% more than the same period last year. 175,000 of them (58%) were Teslas. Last year Tesla sold over 1.3 million EVs worldwide. That's an awful lot of 'fanbois'. Ford recently announced that they are switching to Tesla's charge connector, and several other US car makers followed suit. Seems they are Musk 'fanbois' too! Quote: The closest parallel to Musk fanbois are Americans who insist on buying expensive pickup trucks despite having no real ongoing need for one. The Big 3 make a lot of their business selling trucks to people who don't need them, but there's no accounting for taste I suppose. It's America. Everything is bigger there - the country, vehicles, waistlines. When everybody in the family is obese you need a larger vehicle!
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

27th August 2023, 08:27 AM	#381
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 16,207	Originally Posted by Bogative Whaaaat??? I don't believe you! Next you will be trying to tell me that Musk isn't is on the manufacturing floor at Starlink stuffing satellite dishes into boxes, or that he's not at SpaceX monitoring the life-support systems on the Dragon capsule headed to the ISS. I wasn't convinced before, but I am now, Elon Musk is a terrible CEO. Your dodge of my question is noted. Baseless appeal to authority confirmed.

27th August 2023, 08:50 AM	#382
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 51,598	Originally Posted by ZirconBlue "Frunk"? I'm assuming it's some sort of 'front trunk' storage area, but that may be me simply looking for the obvious when the truth is far more cryptic. It's Musk and Tesla Motors we're talking about here.
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

27th August 2023, 10:08 AM	#383
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 7,678	Originally Posted by Mike! I'm assuming it's some sort of 'front trunk' storage area… That’s exactly what it is. Most EV’s have trunks front and back, with the front one ranging from minimal to CAVERNOUS. Ford F150 Lightning Frunk: Of course, the reason for that huge frunk is the truck was designed for an engine up there. Most ground-up truck designs will likely have less frontal are, and so, smaller frunks. Tesla’s CyberTruck frunk, for example:
	Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 27th August 2023 at 10:13 AM.

27th August 2023, 10:24 AM	#384
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 31,029	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B That’s exactly what it is. Most EV’s have trunks front and back, with the front one ranging from minimal to CAVERNOUS. Ford F150 Lightning Frunk: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ff73eace_z.jpg Of course, the reason for that huge frunk is the truck was designed for an engine up there. Most ground-up truck designs will likely have less frontal are, and so, smaller frunks. Tesla’s CyberTruck frunk, for example: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...7049fbe5_z.jpg As an aside, I was chatting with a colleague about beetles (obviously not designed for a front engine, but still looked like it from outside) as we both used to drive them. The back of his glove compartment had broken, so he sometimes put a full length rolled up umbrella in it, which apparently caused some surprise when he pulled it out.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

27th August 2023, 11:54 AM	#385
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,270	Originally Posted by johnny karate First, Elon Musk doesn’t build the cars. They hire people to do that. Second, why do you defer to Musk’s authority just because he’s CEO? What special qualifications and knowledge does that grant him? Plenty of CEOs prove to be inept. Just look at the guy who runs Twitter. Musk is rich; his actual engineers and workers are not as rich. Therefore capitalism makes Musk the smartest, most perfect guy in the room. (Note, I love capitalism, and this isn’t how it works, but some folks love John Galt and terrible writing.)
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,270	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

27th August 2023, 02:19 PM	#386
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 34,736	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B That’s exactly what it is. Most EV’s have trunks front and back, with the front one ranging from minimal to CAVERNOUS. Ford F150 Lightning Frunk: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ff73eace_z.jpg Of course, the reason for that huge frunk is the truck was designed for an engine up there. Most ground-up truck designs will likely have less frontal are, and so, smaller frunks. Tesla’s CyberTruck frunk, for example: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...7049fbe5_z.jpg I"m guessing the F150 has such a large frunk because American pickup truck styling right now is all about huge, chisel tip hoods, which look aggressive as hell to appeal to ego-deficient and impotent men, but also creates huge frontal blind spots for the driver. An EV should allow for a much shorter hood and much, much better lines of sites, but I'm guessing appealing to the American market means putting form before function. At least you get some extra storage out of the deal so it's not totally pointless, but a pickup truck driver being able to see children directly in front of the vehicle would probably be more socially useful.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

27th August 2023, 02:55 PM	#387
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 45,531	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost I"m guessing the F150 has such a large frunk because American pickup truck styling right now is all about huge, chisel tip hoods, which look aggressive as hell to appeal to ego-deficient and impotent men, but also creates huge frontal blind spots for the driver. An EV should allow for a much shorter hood and much, much better lines of sites, but I'm guessing appealing to the American market means putting form before function. At least you get some extra storage out of the deal so it's not totally pointless, but a pickup truck driver being able to see children directly in front of the vehicle would probably be more socially useful. Why do you hate America?
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

27th August 2023, 03:26 PM	#388
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,858	then they need to make the front look like a skull or something
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,858

27th August 2023, 04:27 PM	#389
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,652	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost I"m guessing the F150 has such a large frunk because American pickup truck styling right now is all about huge, chisel tip hoods, which look aggressive as hell to appeal to ego-deficient and impotent men, but also creates huge frontal blind spots for the driver. Not just pickup trucks, SUVs too - even the small ones. I will never buy a vehicle with that styling, way too ugly! OTOH I love the Cybertruck concept designs people have created, particulalry the military ones. That would turn some heads! The good news is that other car makers are now designing sleeker bodies like Tesla and Nissan did, both for aesthetics and lower drag. Quote: a pickup truck driver being able to see children directly in front of the vehicle would probably be more socially useful. Socially useful, in America? What are you, a communist?
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. Last edited by jimbob; 6th September 2023 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Wide image

27th August 2023, 05:07 PM	#390
Axxman300 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Central California Coast Posts: 6,770	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost I"m guessing the F150 has such a large frunk because American pickup truck styling right now is all about huge, chisel tip hoods, which look aggressive as hell to appeal to ego-deficient and impotent men, but also creates huge frontal blind spots for the driver. That's the stereotype version. Trucks are so huge right now for the same reason Teslas/EVs are selling - tax exemptions. Undersection 179, trucks over 6,000 pounds can be written off of your Federal Income Taxes up top $28,000. Some crafty congress people snuck this into the code, and now there is no reason to make smaller trucks or SUVs. Electric vehicles receive a $7,500 tax break. I doubt they'd sell as well without it. With the $28,000 tax break there's no reason for businesses to look at smaller vehicles. And just so you know, small trucks are not an option on the new market. Used? Sometimes, but the fact is they don't make light pickups any more. I spent a year looking a small truck to replace my 1993 Nissan D21, ended up buying a 2016 Nissan Frontier, which is as small as they get, but it's twice the size of my old truck. Haven't run over any kids yet...that I know of...
	__________________ Disingenuous Piranha

27th August 2023, 05:47 PM	#391
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 7,678	Originally Posted by Axxman300 Electric vehicles receive a $7,500 tax break. I doubt they'd sell as well without it. For a few years, Tesla's did not qualify for the $7,500 tax break, and continued to sell quite well. We got the $7,500 credit when we bought our Honda Clarity PHEV in 2018. We got nothing in 2022 when we bought our Tesla Model 3. But stipulated they do sell somewhat better with tax incentives.

28th August 2023, 04:51 AM	#392
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 34,736	Originally Posted by Axxman300 That's the stereotype version. Trucks are so huge right now for the same reason Teslas/EVs are selling - tax exemptions. Undersection 179, trucks over 6,000 pounds can be written off of your Federal Income Taxes up top $28,000. Some crafty congress people snuck this into the code, and now there is no reason to make smaller trucks or SUVs. Electric vehicles receive a $7,500 tax break. I doubt they'd sell as well without it. With the $28,000 tax break there's no reason for businesses to look at smaller vehicles. And just so you know, small trucks are not an option on the new market. Used? Sometimes, but the fact is they don't make light pickups any more. I spent a year looking a small truck to replace my 1993 Nissan D21, ended up buying a 2016 Nissan Frontier, which is as small as they get, but it's twice the size of my old truck. Haven't run over any kids yet...that I know of... I suppose it's my fault for derailing, but some of this is also laid at the feet of Obama's CAFE standards. Instead of getting the desired effect of improving fuel economy, car manufacturers upsized their vehicles to classify as larger vehicles that had lower standards. There's a reason why small SUVs and small pickups basically don't exist on the US market anymore. Head on over to the Killdozer thread to discuss this more! That said, the chisel tip hood design seems largely an aesthetic choice that could be easily avoided even with large engine, heavy trucks, and doubly so for EVs that don't need this large front end at all.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

28th August 2023, 05:05 AM	#393
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 7,678	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost There's a reason why small SUVs and small pickups basically don't exist on the US market anymore. I guess it depends on how you define "small SUV", but the Toyota RAV 4 and Honda CRV are #3 and #6 respectively in the first list of most popular cars sold in the US I could find, in this case for 2022.

28th August 2023, 05:10 AM	#394
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 34,736	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B I guess it depends on how you define "small SUV", but the Toyota RAV 4 and Honda CRV are #3 and #6 respectively in the first list of most popular cars sold in the US I could find, in this case for 2022. yeah, and they're giants compared to their original versions. That's the thing, many of these companies have continued these model names, but they've grown so much they're entirely different vehicles at this point. Quote: The RAV4 arrived in 1994 as one of the world’s first truly compact SUVs, with the three-door model measuring just 3740mm long, 1695mm wide and 1646mm tall - roughly the same size as a current-day Yaris. Over five generations the now five-door-only RAV4 has grown so it’s now almost one-metre longer than the original three-door (860mm to be exact). It’s also 450mm longer than the original five-door RAV4, so it’s not just a case of the extra doors adding to the size. https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...-bigger-and-is The RAV4 and CRV aren't compact SUVs anymore, despite whatever history that name might imply.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 28th August 2023 at 05:14 AM.

29th August 2023, 03:20 AM	#395
jeremyp Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 3,524	Originally Posted by Bogative As opposed to your appeal to a magazine article? So tell me, based on your years of experience in automotive engineering and manufacturing, design, study and testing, what tolerances and precision standards are workable, affordable and acceptable when it comes to manufacturing a vehicle like cyber truck? Be specific, please. Stainless steel expands when it gets warmer. I don't know which variety they are using in the Cybertruck but lets' assume it is about 10 micrometres per metre per degree C. Musk has asked for "single digit micron precision". That means, if you have a panel that is 1 metre long, if the temperature goes up by a degree C, it will be out of spec. Furthermore, the Cybertruck is as ugly as ****. No amount of precision engineering is going to change that.