IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags elon musk , spacex , tesla

Reply
Old 18th January 2023, 07:32 AM   #121
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 111,118
Noticed I still had this in my watch later list, it covers the fakery used at the latest robot announcements and a few other things he has promoted with "faked" product demonstrations:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2023, 06:34 PM   #122
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 28,330
Was this already mentioned?

A Tesla vehicle using ‘Smart Summon’ appears to crash into a $3.5 million private jet

Quote:
According to the poster, the Tesla owner was using the “Smart Summon” feature that enables a Tesla vehicle to leave a parking space and navigate around obstacles to its owner. Using just the Tesla app on your smartphone, you can “summon” your car to you from a maximum distance of 200 feet, as long as the car is within your line of sight.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2023, 07:06 PM   #123
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 28,330
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Noticed I still had this in my watch later list, it covers the fakery used at the latest robot announcements and a few other things he has promoted with "faked" product demonstrations:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Meanwhile Boston Dynamics' Atlas robot can do parkour:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2023, 08:49 PM   #124
TheGoldcountry
Philosopher
 
TheGoldcountry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,903
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Meanwhile Boston Dynamics' Atlas robot can do parkour:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Damn. Robots are approaching that "uncanny valley" where they look just human enough to creep me out.
__________________
I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten
I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505
TheGoldcountry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2023, 10:34 PM   #125
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,624
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post

I never saw it. Is it really legal to sell a car like this or is this just another example of Musk thumbing his nose at the law?

Specifically, is it legal for a car to be operated on public streets without a driver on-board?
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2023, 11:17 PM   #126
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 28,330
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I never saw it. Is it really legal to sell a car like this or is this just another example of Musk thumbing his nose at the law?

Specifically, is it legal for a car to be operated on public streets without a driver on-board?
The legality may depend on where you are. Apparently it is legal in some states at least. But the driver is responsible according to Tesla.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lianeyv...h=5de89f1518c6

It's only supposed to be used if you have a line of sight to the vehicle.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2023, 07:11 AM   #127
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 20,278
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post



With the average new car price in the U.S. at about $48k, it’s hard to continue to position Tesla’s as a rich man’s toy. Though a fun toy it certainly is!
Just out of curiosity, what vehicles are counted in that "average new car price"? Just sedans, hatchbacks, etc. Or does that include SUVs and pickup trucks (i.e. vehicles that skew the average price upwards).

The price of a Tesla might not have been high compared to the cost of an average new vehicle, but it might have been high compared to vehicles of the same class/purpose. I e. It may be more relevant to compare the cost of a Tesla with the Honda civic, Hyundai Elantra or Toyota Prius/corolla than with a ford f150.


Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2023, 07:54 AM   #128
jadebox
Master Poster
 
jadebox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 2,703
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I never saw it. Is it really legal to sell a car like this or is this just another example of Musk thumbing his nose at the law?

Specifically, is it legal for a car to be operated on public streets without a driver on-board?
The feature is disabled on public streets.

I watched someone fetch their Tesla in a parking lot a few years ago when the feature was new. It moved so slow that if it were about to hit anything, the owner could have stopped it fast enough just by lifting a finger.

But, most other manufacturers with similar features limit them to working over a much shorter distance such as pulling out of a garage or parking space. That seems much less risky.

I get the impression that Tesla is trying to do too much with too little hardware. Most self-driving vehicles have a lot more sensors than Tesla.
jadebox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2023, 08:43 AM   #129
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 7,657
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Just out of curiosity, what vehicles are counted in that "average new car price"?
Not 100% sure. Here’s the link:

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average...e-sets-record/

At the time, they point out EV’s were still priced well above average. That certainly has been moderated a bit by Tesla’s recent price drops, but on average they’re certainly still a bit higher nonetheless.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2023, 12:00 PM   #130
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,459
Seems like Elon Musk is getting into hot water over the demo of FSD that they faked.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/01...eo-emails-show

Amusingly, following the link in Elon's Tweet about the demo now takes you to a page which says "I'm afraid I can't do that", which is somewhat ironic.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2023-01-21 at 17.34.06.jpg (23.5 KB, 9 views)
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2023, 05:00 AM   #131
FatherLukeduke
Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 164
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
With the average new car price in the U.S. at about $48k, it’s hard to continue to position Tesla’s as a rich man’s toy. Though a fun toy it certainly is!
Well, maybe, but the average price of a Tesla is nearly $70k (least before these price cuts). They are expensive cars...the third most expensive with only two niche electric brands more expensive:

Quote:
Tata Motors, $86,154
Rivian, $73,396
Tesla Motors, $69,831
BMW, $68,389
Daimler, $66,158
Geely Auto Group, $58,648
Stellantis, $54,880
Volkswagen Group, $54,858
Ford Motor Company, $54,227
General Motors, $52,175

Elon Musk: saving the world one luxury sedan at a time.
FatherLukeduke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 12:46 AM   #132
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 36,950
Bill Gates would rather provide vaccines than go to Mars (unlike someone else ).

Quote:
Billionaire Bill Gates has said he would rather pay for vaccines than travelling to Mars, which he does not think is a good use of money.

"It's actually quite expensive to go to Mars. You can buy measles vaccines and save lives for $1,000 (£814) per life saved," he told the BBC.

"And so [that] just kind of grounds you, as in - don't go to Mars."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-64499635
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2023, 12:18 PM   #133
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 30,279
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Bill Gates would rather provide vaccines than go to Mars (unlike someone else ).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-64499635
I reckon Musk never had the slightest intention of going to Mars. He was just pimping his brand and/or seeking attention.
__________________
"There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2023, 12:24 AM   #134
Samson
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,449
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I bought 7 more shares @ the market this morning when the market opened, so about $117/share.

They say “Never try to catch a falling knife”, and this is probably why. Still, even with this purchase my basis for the shares I now own is $47.97/share, so I’m still up. We’ll have to see if that continues to be the case.
Awesome trade Eddie
Well done, Tesla $207
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2023, 12:37 AM   #135
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 34,907
Yep, Musk won his court case and now Tesla is way up again.

Seems like a good bit of business.
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2023, 05:59 AM   #136
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 7,657
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Awesome trade Eddie
Well done, Tesla $207
In retrospect I got lucky. Yay!

For the complete story, my purchases since the 3 for 1 split:

11/3/22 2@216.25 $432.50
12/27/22 7@117.50 $822.50
12/30/22 4@122.08 $488.32
1/23/23 8@140.66 $1,125.28
1/26/23 10@160.55 $1,605.49
1/26/23 9@159.13 $1,432.17

(The last 2 we’re a single purchase, filled with 2 lots.)

I’m in this for the long haul, so day-to-day fluctuations don’t bother me too much. Still, I hope the sky’s the limit.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 10th February 2023 at 06:01 AM.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2023, 07:14 AM   #137
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,459
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
In retrospect I got lucky. Yay!

For the complete story, my purchases since the 3 for 1 split:

11/3/22 2@216.25 $432.50
12/27/22 7@117.50 $822.50
12/30/22 4@122.08 $488.32
1/23/23 8@140.66 $1,125.28
1/26/23 10@160.55 $1,605.49
1/26/23 9@159.13 $1,432.17

(The last 2 we’re a single purchase, filled with 2 lots.)

I’m in this for the long haul, so day-to-day fluctuations don’t bother me too much. Still, I hope the sky’s the limit.
In the long haul, Tesla is still vastly overpriced.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2023, 08:42 AM   #138
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 7,657
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
In the long haul, Tesla is still vastly overpriced.
I still hold to the Efficient Market Hypothesis. As such, nothing is ever overpriced or undervalued. The “invisible hand” of the marketplace decides where a commodity should be valued.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2023, 03:48 AM   #139
Gulliver Foyle
Master Poster
 
Gulliver Foyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Cork baaaiii
Posts: 2,397
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
In the long haul, Tesla is still vastly overpriced.
In even the medium term, Tesla's best chance for continuing existence is a buyout by one of the traditional big beasts.
Gulliver Foyle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2023, 06:17 AM   #140
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,459
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I still hold to the Efficient Market Hypothesis. As such, nothing is ever overpriced or undervalued. The “invisible hand” of the marketplace decides where a commodity should be valued.
That sounds a lot like "I believe in magic".

Your so called "invisible hand" is really just a large quantity of investors making decisions about whether to buy or sell. When enough of them start seeing Tesla as just another car company (which is what it is) its share price will adjust itself to be seen in those terms, which means it will go down.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2023, 08:52 AM   #141
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 7,657
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
That sounds a lot like "I believe in magic".

Your so called "invisible hand" is really just a large quantity of investors making decisions about whether to buy or sell. When enough of them start seeing Tesla as just another car company (which is what it is) its share price will adjust itself to be seen in those terms, which means it will go down.
Maybe. Two personal anecdotes as to why I tend not to believe statements about overpriced or undervalued stocks and predictions about their future value...

1) In 1986, I had an idea that a small computer software company might do well going forward. I called my broker in 1986 to maybe get in on their IPO. He thought at $21/share it was overpriced on the hype and to maybe wait for things to calm down. I listened to him and never ended up buying. That small software company had a ticker of MSFT - maybe you've heard of it?

2) In 1998 I bought some Apple. Steve Jobs had come back just prior. For years a lot of analysts and pundits had predicted "the death of Apple". By then I had learned to ignore anyone's pondering about overvalued or underpriced. It was in that somewhat gloomy environment that I bought in. I still have most of those shares - with multiple splits over the years my basis is 35¢ a share and my spreadsheet tells me I'm up 40,660%.

So, both study and personal experience has convinced me that no one really does, or even fundamentally can, know the "real" value of a stock as opposed to it's current value. It is what it is at any given moment based on the wisdom - or the madness - of crowds. Many prognosticators think they can know the future, but I still suggest "Fooled By Randomness" by Nassim Taleb is an excellent anecdote to that way of thinking.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 11th February 2023 at 08:55 AM.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2023, 03:27 AM   #142
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,459
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Maybe. Two personal anecdotes as to why I tend not to believe statements about overpriced or undervalued stocks and predictions about their future value...

1) In 1986, I had an idea that a small computer software company might do well going forward. I called my broker in 1986 to maybe get in on their IPO. He thought at $21/share it was overpriced on the hype and to maybe wait for things to calm down. I listened to him and never ended up buying. That small software company had a ticker of MSFT - maybe you've heard of it?

2) In 1998 I bought some Apple. Steve Jobs had come back just prior. For years a lot of analysts and pundits had predicted "the death of Apple". By then I had learned to ignore anyone's pondering about overvalued or underpriced. It was in that somewhat gloomy environment that I bought in. I still have most of those shares - with multiple splits over the years my basis is 35¢ a share and my spreadsheet tells me I'm up 40,660%.

So, both study and personal experience has convinced me that no one really does, or even fundamentally can, know the "real" value of a stock as opposed to it's current value. It is what it is at any given moment based on the wisdom - or the madness - of crowds. Many prognosticators think they can know the future, but I still suggest "Fooled By Randomness" by Nassim Taleb is an excellent anecdote to that way of thinking.
Good for you, but the vast majority of stocks do not do what MSFT did and AAPL did after Jobs regained control. You were quite lucky really: you might have put your money into Digital Research or Word Perfect Corporation.

Apple and Microsoft experienced massive growth which made their stock go up, but the problem with Tesla is that the expectation of massive growth is already priced into its share price.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2023, 06:46 AM   #143
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 7,657
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Good for you, but the vast majority of stocks do not do what MSFT did and AAPL did after Jobs regained control. You were quite lucky really: you might have put your money into Digital Research or Word Perfect Corporation.

Apple and Microsoft experienced massive growth which made their stock go up, but the problem with Tesla is that the expectation of massive growth is already priced into its share price.
I concede that luck may have had a lot - or everything - to do with my success with Apple. I think intuition and patience factor in as well, but who really knows.

But part of what I took away from “One Up On Wall Street” is that just a few big winners like this in a portfolio can make up for lots and lots of smaller losers. In the interest of full disclosure, I bought a bit of Rivian stock just over a year ago at around $116. Sold the shares I had at around $30 in December to book the loss to go against some capital gains I had last year. “Sell the losers and let the winners run” does seem to have some validity as a strategy.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2023, 03:57 PM   #144
Samson
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,449
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I concede that luck may have had a lot - or everything - to do with my success with Apple. I think intuition and patience factor in as well, but who really knows.

But part of what I took away from “One Up On Wall Street” is that just a few big winners like this in a portfolio can make up for lots and lots of smaller losers. In the interest of full disclosure, I bought a bit of Rivian stock just over a year ago at around $116. Sold the shares I had at around $30 in December to book the loss to go against some capital gains I had last year. “Sell the losers and let the winners run” does seem to have some validity as a strategy.
Sell is the hardest word.
If stock is going up its gonna go higher. If it's coming down, but in profit, only the previous highs are good enough.
If showing a loss, selling is a psychological no no.
When it recovers to break even, see I was always right, it's going way higher.

I see meanwhile Tesla has a fair value of 1500 in 3 years, like candy from a baby?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/...EPG3LDWP6UIIE/
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 06:44 AM   #145
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 34,907
Ah! I see the haters are not mentioning that Elon Musk is the richest man in the world again...

Link

*Jordan Peterson voice*: "Up yours, woke moralists!" *begins to cry*
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 08:11 AM   #146
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,459
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Ah! I see the haters are not mentioning that Elon Musk is the richest man in the world again...

Link

*Jordan Peterson voice*: "Up yours, woke moralists!" *begins to cry*
This is all getting a bit tiresome. Elon Musk's wealth as calculated by multiplying his share holding by the share price is completely imaginary. He did not lose $200 billion when TSLA went down last year as the article seems to claim. He never had that money in the first place. He either bought all his stock when it was much cheaper or was given it as part of his compensation package.

The same probably applies to that French guy he just overtook.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 08:17 AM   #147
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 34,907
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
This is all getting a bit tiresome. Elon Musk's wealth as calculated by multiplying his share holding by the share price is completely imaginary. He did not lose $200 billion when TSLA went down last year as the article seems to claim. He never had that money in the first place. He either bought all his stock when it was much cheaper or was given it as part of his compensation package.

The same probably applies to that French guy he just overtook.
Well, sure, but I am just doing the same as you were (using my winking emoji and reference to a crying Jordan Peterson to clearly signify that I am not being completely serious), when you said "It's official."...

Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
It's official. Elon Musk has had the biggest personal loss of wealth in history

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64236726

This is, of course, just a paper loss although, it may cause him problems with loans secured using Tesla shares as collateral.

Musk has said that the fundamentals at Tesla are still good, but even if he weren't lying, the shares are still overpriced.
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 09:46 AM   #148
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 20,104
Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
In even the medium term, Tesla's best chance for continuing existence is a buyout by one of the traditional big beasts.
Wishing it was so doesn't make it so. Tesla seems to be doing spectacularly; they made $12.5 billion last year. Revenues were up over 50%, which is amazing for a company of that size. I look at the financials of many companies and Tesla's are outstandingly strong; about the only criticism I'd offer is that they have too much cash on hand. They should deploy it or return it to the shareholders as dividends.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 12:12 PM   #149
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,459
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, sure, but I am just doing the same as you were (using my winking emoji and reference to a crying Jordan Peterson to clearly signify that I am not being completely serious), when you said "It's official."...
I must remember that sarcasm doesn't always survive the transition into print.

ETA: although perhaps my assertion that it was just a paper loss two lines below should possibly have been a clue.

ETA2: although perhaps you thought I thought your comment about haters was serious.

Last edited by jeremyp; 1st March 2023 at 12:17 PM.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 12:22 PM   #150
jeremyp
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 3,459
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Wishing it was so doesn't make it so. Tesla seems to be doing spectacularly; they made $12.5 billion last year. Revenues were up over 50%, which is amazing for a company of that size. I look at the financials of many companies and Tesla's are outstandingly strong; about the only criticism I'd offer is that they have too much cash on hand. They should deploy it or return it to the shareholders as dividends.
Those numbers are the past. You need to look at other things to make an educated guess at the future.

Other companies are now making electric cars. Almost all of them seem to be better than Tesla at developing new models and getting them into production. None of them have CEOs who are more interested on proving to the world that they are massive ********* than running a good car company.

Tesla's future is grim unless they get somebody in who knows howe to build cars.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 12:33 PM   #151
Ryokan
Insert something funny here
 
Ryokan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,804
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Those numbers are the past. You need to look at other things to make an educated guess at the future.

Other companies are now making electric cars. Almost all of them seem to be better than Tesla at developing new models and getting them into production. None of them have CEOs who are more interested on proving to the world that they are massive ********* than running a good car company.

Tesla's future is grim unless they get somebody in who knows howe to build cars.
Norway started adopting electric cars early, and last year over 80% of new cars sold were electric.

Many car manufacturers have stopped selling fossil fuel cars in Norway. They simply don't sell much.

So we have a big variety of electric cars to choose from.

And still Tesla has a 25% market share. Of all new cars sold.

Tesla is also the favoured brand of electric car to be used as taxi, a profession that has high demands of their cars.

I own two taxis. I considered many different cars, but eventually landed on Tesla. It simply made the most sense, especially economically (Other brands still demand regular service intervals, despite electric cars not needing them like fossil fuel cars do.).

Tesla also scores the highest when different Norwegian consumer groups run tests on range loss in cold weather and things like that.

So who are all of these companies who are making electric cars that seem to be better than Tesla?

Yes, Musk is insane, but that doesn't seem to have impacted Tesla's cars.

Last edited by Ryokan; 1st March 2023 at 12:36 PM.
Ryokan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 12:35 PM   #152
Ryokan
Insert something funny here
 
Ryokan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,804
Rumours have it that Musk will announce a cheap Tesla, nicknamed Tesla Model 2 in social media, in March.

It will be a small crossover SUV with price around $25k.

It's rumoured it will be in production already this year, which in Tesla speak probably means 2024 or 2025.

I suspect Tesla stock will rise if this rumour holds true.
Ryokan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 12:38 PM   #153
wareyin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 11,828
Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Rumours have it that Musk will announce a cheap Tesla, nicknamed Tesla Model 2 in social media, in March.

It will be a small crossover SUV with price around $25k.

It's rumoured it will be in production already this year, which in Tesla speak probably means 2024 or 2025.

I suspect Tesla stock will rise if this rumour holds true.
Anyone putting a lot of stock into rumors about new Tesla models going into production should pay a lot of attention to how many Cybertrucks are on the road right now.

Are these even rumors from Tesla insiders, or is this just what some guy in the pub is saying?
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 12:44 PM   #154
trustbutverify
Penultimate Amazing
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,155
Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Yes, Musk is insane, but that doesn't seem to have impacted Tesla's cars.
I don't think he's insane, just a miserable person.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 03:15 PM   #155
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
 
novaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sunny South Australia
Posts: 5,607
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I don't think he's insane, just a miserable person.
'miserable person'

I must remember that, the next time I need to explain that someone is an utter dick.
__________________
We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.
novaphile is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 03:16 PM   #156
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 111,118
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Anyone putting a lot of stock into rumors about new Tesla models going into production should pay a lot of attention to how many Cybertrucks are on the road right now.

Are these even rumors from Tesla insiders, or is this just what some guy in the pub is saying?
And how many solar roof tiles, or how many robots or…..
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 03:19 PM   #157
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 30,279
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And how many solar roof tiles, or how many robots or…..
... BFRs on Mars
__________________
"There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 04:47 PM   #158
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 20,104
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Those numbers are the past. You need to look at other things to make an educated guess at the future.

Other companies are now making electric cars. Almost all of them seem to be better than Tesla at developing new models and getting them into production. None of them have CEOs who are more interested on proving to the world that they are massive ********* than running a good car company.

Tesla's future is grim unless they get somebody in who knows howe to build cars.
Lots of assertions in there; no links, no backup, no analysis. You hate Musk and therefore his company is doomed. I'm actually not a big fan, but I can read financial statements. This is a very healthy company still in its rapid growth phase. The P/E is currently down to around 50. This is anecdotal, but I see the cars everywhere; maybe it's just that they are so distinctive looking with that Porsche 911 hood (and almost white).
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 05:39 PM   #159
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 34,907
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I must remember that sarcasm doesn't always survive the transition into print.

ETA: although perhaps my assertion that it was just a paper loss two lines below should possibly have been a clue.

ETA2: although perhaps you thought I thought your comment about haters was serious.
Yeah, I was being tongue-in-cheek about the haters part. Or at least partly tongue-in-cheek.

That said, I do notice that there was quite a bit of excitement about Tesla's share price dropping, and Musk losing money, on paper, but no mention in the same thread when Tesla went back up.

I really have very little understanding of these things, but I assumed from something you said before that the drop in share price could be temporary....

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Why would the demand for electric cars be softening?

Surely if anything, this is a good time for Tesla. One of Elon Musk's biggest fanboys, Jordan Peterson, is currently decrying Canada's decision to move to sales of zero-emission vehicles who is also now leaning into his catch phrase of "up yours, woke moralists!"

Link
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
There’s a new US government subsidy coming in in January. Nobody in America wants to buy a Tesla this month, they want them next month.
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Interesting. So this fall in price could be temporary….?
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I'm going to partially walk back what I said. The new tax credit is a major factor, but there are several others.

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/...ices-dropping/

I think Tesla is in trouble regardless of the tax credit situation. It's got no new models. The second hand market is saturated. Other manufacturers are beginning to erode its market position. The CEO is AWOL (although that might be a positive).

...could it be that that turned out to be the case?

The other thing, possibly, and I am just spitballing here, didn't Tesla reduce their prices?

I think some people were saying that the second-hand EV market was saturated, but reducing the price presumably, or at least I would assume, would tempt more people to buy new cars who might have bought second-hand.

I think there was some grumbling about how Elon Musk has suddenly left current owners of vehicles in possession of a less valuable car. And sure, maybe some would lose out, but clearly not Tesla, by the looks of things.

Anyway, for the record, I think Elon Musk is a complete douchebag. I used to have more respect for him as a person until I found out how much he panders to the craziest people to be popular among edgelords and other wankers, but I think it is best to separate that from the fact that Tesla does seem to be doing okay right now.
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2023, 07:16 PM   #160
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 45,710
Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
In even the medium term, Tesla's best chance for continuing existence is a buyout by one of the traditional big beasts.
GM and Ford are both hollow shells. Ditto the rest of the beasts.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:02 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.