Split Thread: Musk, SpaceX and future of Tesla

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Bogative

Obviously Tesla with Elon Musk as it's CEO is a total **** show and the worst auto manufacture ever… or something.

It's worth asking... how much actual work has Musk been doing for Tesla, lately? Same question for SpaceX, really. I can't say that I trust anyone trying to handle as much as Musk is officially trying to handle not to burnout or otherwise just not really be doing the job.

Originally Posted by Beerina

If I have missed anything important, or there are any inaccuracies, let me know.

That's quite the fantasy you laid out in that post! Don't quit your day job, though.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Beerina

He was a darling of a political faction for many years, because he pushed EV off the ground.

Then he had the temerity to have a political opinion, or not like corporate censorship at the behest, or threat of, politicians threatening section 230, whatevs.


So the order was dropped into the echo chamber, he is no longer a good guy, and you are ordered to look askanse on him.

This was done by automata. Had he doubled down on censorship, you'd be crying how glad you are he was born.

If I have missed anything important, or there are any inaccuracies, let me know.

I would like to live on the street JigglyPuff.

Not sure why you think you are making a good point here.

1.) You are accusing people of having consistent political views - You supported the guy who advocated your views until he revealed he was against your views!

I mean, of course people are going to a person's worldview if they disagree with it. Or at least, they should. There are people who will change their views to fit those of their hero, but that is more akin to cult worship. So your objection is rejected!

Next,

2.) You say that Elon Musk is opposed to censorship, and that people would cheer him on if he in fact censored the social media platform he took over.

This has been put to the test and found to be false. In fact, we have seen Musk's Twitter block tweets at the behest of the Turkish government. Did people who criticize Musk support this? No, they did not!

Link

Quote:

Twitter's decision to block certain content in Turkey the day before its presidential election was wrong, says the founder of Wikipedia.

Jimmy Wales told the BBC his organisation had spent two and a half years in court to avoid similar demands made by Turkey in the past.

He said he believed the tech sector should stand together in defending free access to information.

Twitter's owner Elon Musk said Turkey had threatened to block the whole site.

In 2014, Turkish President Recep Erdogan did exactly that, vowing to "wipe out" the social network after corruption allegations about his administration were shared on the platform.

Wikipedia was also banned in Turkey for almost three years after refusing to delete articles that criticised the government.

So it seems that Elon Musk's Twitter played nice with Erdogan's government in order to end up like the previous owners of Twitter who refused, or of Wikipedia, who also refused.

What did Elon Musk say to this?

Quote:

Ever defensive, Musk replied, “Did your brain fall out of your head, Yglesias? The choice is have Twitter throttled in its entirety or limit access to some tweets. Which one do you want?” Tech journalist Kara Swisher piled on to Musk, writing, “Being a persistent quisling to authoritarian governments upon which your other businesses are dependent has a very Vichy France vibe.”

Link

So he did double down on censorship, not only in Turkey, but also in India, where his excuse is "The rules in India for what can appear on social media are quite strict and we can't go beyond the laws of the country," he said."

He's also apparently made unilateral declarations that some of the people he doesn't like such as Kanye and Alex Jones will remain banned on the platform. Yet where are the Twitter files?

So objection number two is also rejected!

[dirtywick]

i think he's turned twitter into what he accused it of being. more importantly whatever you thought about him before, he's become the world's most prolific social media addict

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Aridas

It's worth asking... how much actual work has Musk been doing for Tesla, lately? Same question for SpaceX, really. I can't say that I trust anyone trying to handle as much as Musk is officially trying to handle not to burnout or otherwise just not really be doing the job.






That's quite the fantasy you laid out in that post! Don't quit your day job, though.

Tesla has been doing quite well financially recently. Also, the semi and the Cybertruck are looking like they might actually go on sale. I'm wondering if all of these positive signs for Tesla are because Elon Musk is distracted at Twitter.

SpaceX has always been run by Gwynne Shotwell anyway so I don't think it ever really took up much of Musk's time.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Beerina

He was a darling of a political faction for many years, because he pushed EV off the ground.

Then he had the temerity to have a political opinion, or not like corporate censorship at the behest, or threat of, politicians threatening section 230, whatevs.


So the order was dropped into the echo chamber, he is no longer a good guy, and you are ordered to look askanse on him.

This was done by automata. Had he doubled down on censorship, you'd be crying how glad you are he was born.

If I have missed anything important, or there are any inaccuracies, let me know.

I would like to live on the street JigglyPuff.

He never was a good guy. It was just that, like Assange, he did something that made him temporarily look like a good guy to the gullible.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Even if true, so what? This was Tesla's goal from the start!

We are so screwed.

Luckily however, the US isn't the whole world. In China 25% of new cars sold are electric, and tighter regulations (which were delayed to gave car makers more time to get with the program) are going to make it close to 100%. Hundreds of thousands of gas cars are sitting around unsold because they don't meet the upcoming regulations. This is good news because China is currently the biggest emitter of greenhouse gasses. Bad news for foreign automakers making those cars in China though.

Legacy auto faces disaster in China with unsellable cars as pollution crunch looms

Problem is, in terms of climate change, the choice isn't fossil fuel vs EV, it's public vs private transport. And mass public transport beats fossil fuel or EVs hands down.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

He never was a good guy. It was just that, like Assange, he did something that made him temporarily look like a good guy to the gullible.

Only in your black and white world.

Assange was as much a 'good guy' as any of them - ie. not a paragon of goodness in every way, but good in one way that mattered. Unfortunately, like so many who get into a position of power, that goodness was overshadowed by destructive hubris.

Musk is a similar case - though paradoxically his hubris may actually help the company. There is huge opposition to electric cars among among conservatives (for obvious reasons). By being one himself, Musk is breaking down the barriers between them. Even if not deliberate this could be a winning strategy. The tree huggers already have electric cars. To expand he needs to appeal to a wider audience. If he can manage to crack the conservative market then gas car makers are toast. The real irony is he may not even realize he's doing it...

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Problem is, in terms of climate change, the choice isn't fossil fuel vs EV, it's public vs private transport. And mass public transport beats fossil fuel or EVs hands down.

Problem is, in our current culture that's a non-starter. Eventually mass transport may indeed be the answer, but it will take a generation to get people on board with it. We don't have a generation.

People think stopping Global Warming is a technical issue. It's not. We could stop it today with the technology we have. The real problem is psychological. In modern society the car isn't just a symbol of freedom, it's very real part of it. You can't take that away from people and expect them to accept it - not when it means giving up the ability to go where they want when they want.

A private car is more than just a transportation device, it is a place we feel comfortable and safe in because it belongs to us. A machine we are in control of, an extension of our mind and body. That's a hard thing to give up for some esoteric goal such as lowering the level of a colorless odorless gas which makes up less than 0.3% 0.5% of the atmosphere.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Musk is a similar case - though paradoxically his hubris may actually help the company. There is huge opposition to electric cars among among conservatives (for obvious reasons). By being one himself, Musk is breaking down the barriers between them.

HA HA, no he's not.

That's the hilarity of Musk's outward pivot toward hard conservatism. There is no doubt he hopes it will expand Tesla's customer base to conservatives, but it won't. It can't. Electric vehicles are for woke tree-hugger libtards. The only practical reason to get one is out of concern for the environment and climate change, and present American conservative identity-theatre demands not merely a disagreement with those concerns, but indeed a performative rejection of them and mockery of anyone who holds them. Red-state leaders are as we speak making a show of working to heavily penalize electric vehicle use and ownership in their states, as a way of proving their ideological purity to the MAGA voting base; and the MAGA voting base, in turn, is proving their ideological purity by vandalizing Teslas, deliberately parking their gasoline mega-pickup trucks in front of charging stations so electric vehicle owners can't access them, and in some cases outright damaging or destroying the charging stations themselves.

Conservatives will happily cheer Musk for doing a heel turn and ruining Twitter for the libs, but they will never buy Teslas. It's too bright of a line in their precious culture-war.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Only in your black and white world.

.

Not my world, reality. From the very start Musk was up to some very immoral and shady business, cutting his partners out of companies, over-promising and under-delivering, claiming other people's work as his own and creating unsafe work environments for his employees all because of his personal whims.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

The EV market is becoming increasingly crowded by companies that actually know how to manufacture cars in high quantities. Whatever advantage Tesla had from being an early player in this market is rapidly waning.

And actual vehicle makers are heavily involved in research into new battery technology.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Beerina

He was a darling of a political faction for many years, because he pushed EV off the ground.

Then he had the temerity to have a political opinion, or not like corporate censorship at the behest, or threat of, politicians threatening section 230, whatevs.


So the order was dropped into the echo chamber, he is no longer a good guy, and you are ordered to look askanse on him.

This was done by automata. Had he doubled down on censorship, you'd be crying how glad you are he was born.

If I have missed anything important, or there are any inaccuracies, let me know.

I would like to live on the street JigglyPuff.

An even tenuous connection with reality?

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

HA HA, no he's not.

That's the hilarity of Musk's outward pivot toward hard conservatism. There is no doubt he hopes it will expand Tesla's customer base to conservatives, but it won't. It can't. Electric vehicles are for woke tree-hugger libtards. The only practical reason to get one is out of concern for the environment and climate change, and present American conservative identity-theatre demands not merely a disagreement with those concerns, but indeed a performative rejection of them and mockery of anyone who holds them. Red-state leaders are as we speak making a show of working to heavily penalize electric vehicle use and ownership in their states, as a way of proving their ideological purity to the MAGA voting base; and the MAGA voting base, in turn, is proving their ideological purity by vandalizing Teslas, deliberately parking their gasoline mega-pickup trucks in front of charging stations so electric vehicle owners can't access them, and in some cases outright damaging or destroying the charging stations themselves.

Conservatives will happily cheer Musk for doing a heel turn and ruining Twitter for the libs, but they will never buy Teslas. It's too bright of a line in their precious culture-war.

he's going to sell enough EVs regardless. this is all about regulatory bodies and government money. i think he realized how much easier it is to buy favor with politicians on the right if you own your own media outlet and can manipulate their base. it would take someone smart to pull it off without pissing off the left too much and i don't think he's as smart as he thinks he is.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

From the very start Musk was up to some very immoral and shady business, cutting his partners out of companies, over-promising and under-delivering, claiming other people's work as his own and creating unsafe work environments for his employees all because of his personal whims.

Stipulated that Musk’s timelines have often been absurdly optimistic.

But credit where credit is due. He predicted the Tesla Model Y would be hugely successful. It is currently the best selling car model in the world. He had a seemingly pie-in-the-sky vision to bring access to the internet to everyone on the planet by launching a gazillion satellites into orbit with reusable boosters. And right now StarLink is providing my high speed internet service in an area otherwise unsupported. And SpaceX was a very long term vision that has succeeded admirably.

I’m not a fanboi. Musk is flawed in many ways. He’s probably on a spectrum that may help explain his sometimes erratic behavior. But regardless I think he’s often attacked undeservedly.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Stipulated that Musk’s timelines have often been absurdly optimistic.

But credit where credit is due. He predicted the Tesla Model Y would be hugely successful. It is currently the best selling car model in the world. He had a seemingly pie-in-the-sky vision to bring access to the internet to everyone on the planet by launching a gazillion satellites into orbit with reusable boosters. And right now StarLink is providing my high speed internet service in an area otherwise unsupported. And SpaceX was a very long term vision that has succeeded admirably.

I’m not a fanboi. Musk is flawed in many ways. He’s probably on a spectrum that may help explain his sometimes erratic behavior. But regardless I think he’s often attacked undeservedly.

Do you literally mean "this week"? As this seems to show it is behind other models in global sales in 2022. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...otive%20sector.

[Darat]

I now understand why he went to China. Seems it is the biggest market for him. Wonder what assurances he gave them about ensuring Twitter remains overall blocked in China and what usage is allowed will be controlled?

ETA: I suspect he will do everything he think he can to keep Trump out of the Whitehouse else he may find his exports are blocked at 2am after Trump got off the phone to Hannity.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Stipulated that Musk’s timelines have often been absurdly optimistic.

But credit where credit is due. He predicted the Tesla Model Y would be hugely successful. It is currently the best selling car model in the world. He had a seemingly pie-in-the-sky vision to bring access to the internet to everyone on the planet by launching a gazillion satellites into orbit with reusable boosters. And right now StarLink is providing my high speed internet service in an area otherwise unsupported. And SpaceX was a very long term vision that has succeeded admirably.

I’m not a fanboi. Musk is flawed in many ways. He’s probably on a spectrum that may help explain his sometimes erratic behavior. But regardless I think he’s often attacked undeservedly.

Kinda seems to me that these endeavors as succeeding despite Musk's involvement, at least on the technical side. Musk does seem to have some general talent as a self promoter, which is certainly useful for drawing in investment and deflecting scrutiny.

Much of the just criticism of him seems to revolve around his weird cult insisting (with encouragement from Musk himself) that's he's some polymath savant that is leading and responsible for the highly technical successes at these companies, or that he's some techno-messiah that has a particularly useful or admirable view of how society should operate.

A bit of probing shows that Musk is not particularly technically skilled. His weird ideas of trying to gut Paypal's code lead to him getting wisely shoved out the company, and those knowledgeable with his time there say his coding skills were amateurish at best.

Likewise Tesla has made a number of bone-headed design decisions over the years that one might suspect was the result of Musk's personal prerogative. The idiotic yoke steering wheel that makes navigating a parking lot an ergonomic mess have the stink of Musk all over it.

Then you have Musk ideas like the death-trap Tesla tunnel as a form of mass transit that are just patently, obviously bad. Or how he straight up defamed a hero diver because he wasn't polite enough when telling him his mini sub idea sucked and wouldn't work.

Musk is now making a proper mess out of Twitter. Honestly this is probably the best thing to happen to Tesla. Musk will be busy putting out fires he himself started over there and be far too busy to micromanage the actual talent working at Tesla. I presume being king of the internet is far more appealing to his personal vanity and will capture his attention for the foreseeable future.

Musk is just a businessman with delusions of grandeur. He got lucky during the internet boom and got rich, and seems to have some skill in picking investments that will put himself into the zeitgeist and promoting them (and himself) such that investor money is flowing in, but he does not seem content with that being the totality of his reputation.

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Stipulated that Musk’s timelines have often been absurdly optimistic.

But credit where credit is due. He predicted the Tesla Model Y would be hugely successful. It is currently the best selling car model in the world. He had a seemingly pie-in-the-sky vision to bring access to the internet to everyone on the planet by launching a gazillion satellites into orbit with reusable boosters. And right now StarLink is providing my high speed internet service in an area otherwise unsupported. And SpaceX was a very long term vision that has succeeded admirably.

I’m not a fanboi. Musk is flawed in many ways. He’s probably on a spectrum that may help explain his sometimes erratic behavior. But regardless I think he’s often attacked undeservedly.

i don't think he's attacked too often for making a successful EV company or putting up satellites, even though he's been criticized on those fronts as well.
sometimes fairly, sometimes not. in fact, i think a lot of people attacking him wish he would focus on that stuff instead of what he's been doing which is most of what comprises the criticism. which he deserves.

[Here_to_learn]

Originally Posted by Darat

Do you literally mean "this week"? As this seems to show it is behind other models in global sales in 2022. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...otive%20sector.

I've mostly seen quoted the numbers for Q1-2023, like this one: https://www.motor1.com/news/669135/t...g-car-q1-2023/

Originally Posted by motor1.com

Yes, JATO data for 53 markets worldwide, plus information for other key markets and estimates for others, indicate that the Tesla Model Y was the world's best-selling car in the first quarter of this year.

So not quite a week, but not a full year either.

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Problem is, in our current culture that's a non-starter. Eventually mass transport may indeed be the answer, but it will take a generation to get people on board with it. We don't have a generation.

People think stopping Global Warming is a technical issue. It's not. We could stop it today with the technology we have. The real problem is psychological. In modern society the car isn't just a symbol of freedom, it's very real part of it. You can't take that away from people and expect them to accept it - not when it means giving up the ability to go where they want when they want.

A private car is more than just a transportation device, it is a place we feel comfortable and safe in because it belongs to us. A machine we are in control of, an extension of our mind and body. That's a hard thing to give up for some esoteric goal such as lowering the level of a colorless odorless gas which makes up less than 0.3% 0.5% of the atmosphere.

And so the sooner we start weaning people off the car the better. EV's are not helping in that respect.

Elon Musk doesn't care about the environment. He only cares about selling more stuff. The fact that Tesla invested in Bitcoin should tell you exactly how much concern Musk has for climate change. None at all.

And it's not just about climate change. The car destroys cities with its multilane freeways and its vistas of parking lots and this freedom you think you have is the freedom to sit in a metal box for two hours every day waiting for the metal box in front of you to inch forward a bit. And everybody has to have a car because all the other transport infrastructure has been bulldozed to make way for the car.

Elon Musk doesn't care about you and he doesn't care about the environment just as long as he gets your money. And he's not going to give you a pony for taking his corner.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Kinda seems to me that these endeavors as succeeding despite Musk's involvement, at least on the technical side. Musk does seem to have some general talent as a self promoter, which is certainly useful for drawing in investment and deflecting scrutiny.

Much of the just criticism of him seems to revolve around his weird cult insisting (with encouragement from Musk himself) that's he's some polymath savant that is leading and responsible for the highly technical successes at these companies, or that he's some techno-messiah that has a particularly useful or admirable view of how society should operate.

A bit of probing shows that Musk is not particularly technically skilled. His weird ideas of trying to gut Paypal's code lead to him getting wisely shoved out the company, and those knowledgeable with his time there say his coding skills were amateurish at best.

Likewise Tesla has made a number of bone-headed design decisions over the years that one might suspect was the result of Musk's personal prerogative. The idiotic yoke steering wheel that makes navigating a parking lot an ergonomic mess have the stink of Musk all over it.

Then you have Musk ideas like the death-trap Tesla tunnel as a form of mass transit that are just patently, obviously bad. Or how he straight up defamed a hero diver because he wasn't polite enough when telling him his mini sub idea sucked and wouldn't work.

Musk is now making a proper mess out of Twitter. Honestly this is probably the best thing to happen to Tesla. Musk will be busy putting out fires he himself started over there and be far too busy to micromanage the actual talent working at Tesla. I presume being king of the internet is far more appealing to his personal vanity and will capture his attention for the foreseeable future.

Musk is just a businessman with delusions of grandeur. He got lucky during the internet boom and got rich, and seems to have some skill in picking investments that will put himself into the zeitgeist and promoting them (and himself) such that investor money is flowing in, but he does not seem content with that being the totality of his reputation.

While I don't think that Musk is competent enough to be good in any one area, he definitely has enough about him to make massive messes at several different companies simultaneously.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Here_to_learn

I've mostly seen quoted the numbers for Q1-2023, like this one: https://www.motor1.com/news/669135/t...g-car-q1-2023/



So not quite a week, but not a full year either.

Remember, until very recently Tesla deliveries were running years behind purchases. I would not be at all surprised if a significant chunk of those numbers are cars paid for years ago.

[Filippo Lippi]

Has it been mentioned in the thread that the Plaid is not coming to the UK? Fanboys who have been waiting a very, very, very long time for their ridiculously fast EV are now very pissed off

ETA - they have the option of a left-hand drive model from Germany, apparently

[Bogative]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Remember, until very recently Tesla deliveries were running years behind purchases. I would not be at all surprised if a significant chunk of those numbers are cars paid for years ago.

Or, the numbers provided by Motor1 via JATO could be exactly as they say and the Model Y was the world's "best selling car in Q1 2023" and have nothing to do with cars that were sold anytime other than the 3 months specified.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Remember, until very recently Tesla deliveries were running years behind purchases. I would not be at all surprised if a significant chunk of those numbers are cars paid for years ago.

When ordering a Tesla, you just pay a $250 non-refundable ordering fee. Payment for the car is not made until the car is ready for delivery.

Unless they book the full price of the “sale” when the deposit is made, but I’m not sure that’s kosher. Maybe an accountant can advise how that might work.

[Bogative]

The worst CEO in the history of CEOs is about to get worser.

Quote:

In a significant boost for electric vehicle (EV) buyers, Tesla has announced that all new Model 3 cars in the US now qualify for the full $7,500 EV tax credit. The credit has effectively reduced the starting price of the Model 3 to $32,740 (with incentives), making the car more affordable to a broader range of customers. In fact, in some states, the price tag could drop below $30,000.

Consumers will be able to purchase a Model 3 for $27,740 in Colorado.


In other news:
Elon Musk Reclaims Title of World's Richest Man: Here's How Much Of His Wealth Is In Tesla Stock

Total **** up who can't get anything right.


Apartheid!

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Bogative

The worst CEO in the history of CEOs is about to get worser.



Consumers will be able to purchase a Model 3 for $27,740 in Colorado.


In other news:
Elon Musk Reclaims Title of World's Richest Man: Here's How Much Of His Wealth Is In Tesla Stock

Total **** up who can't get anything right.


Apartheid!

Nah, he doesn't hold a candle to Ken Lay or John Akers for worst ever.

Nice that he's sucking off the government teat to get his vehicles more affordable... good move as a CEO if he was instrumental in making that happen. Unlikely to get many conservatives to buy EV's though.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Remember, until very recently Tesla deliveries were running years behind purchases. I would not be at all surprised if a significant chunk of those numbers are cars paid for years ago.

I was looking around for Tesla sales figures as compared to other manufactures. And one website I saw pointed out, that they don't exist. They only release production numbers. So there is no publicly accessible info out there for how many cars Tesla sold this year. If you compare their production numbers to other companies sales numbers in Q1 2023, they made about 4.8% of everything in the US. THAT list included light duty trucks and SUV's. Its clear some of the worldwide figures are "passenger vehicles" only (even though in the US tons of other vehicles are de facto passenger vehicles), because F-150's sell more in the US alone than some models I saw listed in the top 10 worldwide.

[Ryokan]

In Norway, we know exactly how many Teslas are sold. There are public sales numbers.

https://ofv.no/registreringsstatistikk

So far in 2023, Tesla has sold 13 397 cars in Norway, giving them a market share of 26,3%

12 325 of them are Tesla Model Y, making it, by far, Norway's most popular car.

The numbers are based on registered cars. Surely people have to register their car in other countries too, giving you official numbers?

[Here_to_learn]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Remember, until very recently Tesla deliveries were running years behind purchases. I would not be at all surprised if a significant chunk of those numbers are cars paid for years ago.

We are talking Model Y here. There have been long delays on S and X, but Y has been delivered in volume since 2021.

But Tesla did drop the prices early 2023, and with their ability to actually deliver the car that gave them a boost. So where other EV makes have delivery times of up to a year (or more), Tesla could deliver a Model Y in a couple of days or weeks.

The exception has been some specific colors only delivered from the Berlin factory.

[Here_to_learn]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

In Norway, we know exactly how many Teslas are sold. There are public sales numbers.

https://ofv.no/registreringsstatistikk

So far in 2023, Tesla has sold 13 397 cars in Norway, giving them a market share of 26,3%

12 325 of them are Tesla Model Y, making it, by far, Norway's most popular car.

The numbers are based on registered cars. Surely people have to register their car in other countries too, giving you official numbers?

In Sweden we are far behind Norway in EV adoption, but just like Norway, Model Y was the most registered car in Q1-2023.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Nice that he's sucking off the government teat to get his vehicles more affordable... good move as a CEO if he was instrumental in making that happen.

So other car makers aren't? The government is giving out rebates for electric cars because they want people to buy them. Producing electric cars is therefore patriotic. Producing gas cars is not. Tesla is the only major producer supporting the government's program 100%. The others are cynically 'sucking off the government teat' just enough to make it look like they care, while continuing to promote their polluting gas cars as much as possible.

Quote:

Unlikely to get many conservatives to buy EV's though.

The more liberals get upset about Musk being conservative, the more conservatives are likely to buy his products just to stick it to libs. If Musk plays his hand right he'll have conservatives eating out of it. So far he's going the right way about it, and liberals are taking the bait!

[Bogative]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Nice that he's sucking off the government teat to get his vehicles more affordable... good move as a CEO if he was instrumental in making that happen.

No and no. The federal government gives tax credits to people who purchase certain EVs. It would be the consumer who is sucking off the government teat.
Musk famously opposed the tax credits.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Bogative

No and no. The federal government gives tax credits to people who purchase certain EVs. It would be the consumer who is sucking off the government teat.
Musk famously opposed the tax credits.

I'm not against ev credits, I'm for them. However they are just about the worst thing in the history of the world according to conservatives I talk to (2nd to transgender people marketing your beer).

But, pretending a consumer credit doesn't effect a businesses p&l is just silly. More teslas are sold due to the credit compared to ICE vehicles than otherwise would be. I think you understand this.

[Bogative]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

But, pretending a consumer credit doesn't effect a businesses p&l is just silly. More teslas are sold due to the credit compared to ICE vehicles than otherwise would be. I think you understand this.

Yes, tax credits incentivize purchases of EVs, that's why the the government offers them, and I understand that. Your characterization of Musk sucking the government teat even though he opposed the tax credit is ridiculous.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Bogative

No and no. The federal government gives tax credits to people who purchase certain EVs. It would be the consumer who is sucking off the government teat.
Musk famously opposed the tax credits.

Which given his business you would expect.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

So other car makers aren't? The government is giving out rebates for electric cars because they want people to buy them. Producing electric cars is therefore patriotic. Producing gas cars is not. Tesla is the only major producer supporting the government's program 100%. The others are cynically 'sucking off the government teat' just enough to make it look like they care, while continuing to promote their polluting gas cars as much as possible.

The more liberals get upset about Musk being conservative, the more conservatives are likely to buy his products just to stick it to libs. If Musk plays his hand right he'll have conservatives eating out of it. So far he's going the right way about it, and liberals are taking the bait!

It would be far better for governments around the world to invest in public transport than give a single penny to any car manufacturers for evs. Evs should be as dead end a technology as fossil fuel cars.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Tesla is the only major producer supporting the government's program 100%. The others are cynically 'sucking off the government teat' just enough to make it look like they care, while continuing to promote their polluting gas cars as much as possible.

Well - no. Tesla makes quite a lot of money by selling its carbon-offset credits to highly-polluting ICE-vehicle manufacturers, allowing those manufacturers to create even more pollution than they normally would be allowed if Tesla wasn't selling those credits to them. Tesla is profiting handsomely from polluting gas cars.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Well - no. Tesla makes quite a lot of money by selling its carbon-offset credits to highly-polluting ICE-vehicle manufacturers, allowing those manufacturers to create even more pollution than they normally would be allowed if Tesla wasn't selling those credits to them. Tesla is profiting handsomely from polluting gas cars.

You don't get it. Those other car makers would have bought carbon credits from whoever had them, if they preferred to do that rather than produce compliance cars or pay fines. By buying them from Tesla they boost Tesla's profitability at the expense of their own, a losing strategy.

Once again the gas car makers who refuse to transition to electric are the bad guys here, not Tesla. By taking money from them Tesla is hastening their demise. And again remember that those car makers would be operating exactly the same if they got their carbon credits from someone else. Or they might make compliance cars at a loss or simply pay the fines for not meeting low emission standards. Either way you can bet they wouldn't be producing fewer polluting cars if Tesla refused to sell its carbon credits (which would be monumentally stupid since they are worth nothing until sold).

Just like the clean car rebates, this is working exactly as designed. By being an active part of the program Tesla is doing what the government wants, and is being patriotic.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

It would be far better for governments around the world to invest in public transport than give a single penny to any car manufacturers for evs. Evs should be as dead end a technology as fossil fuel cars.

Is this a case of “the perfect being the enemy of the good?”

In the US, we’re nowhere near public transport being a panacea. In certain urban and intra-urban settings, maybe feasible. But across vast swathes of rural America? Not so much.