Split Thread: Musk, SpaceX and future of Tesla

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by jeremyp

I'm not a fan of Elon Musk but I am not totally against him on this. They're asking him to supply a service to be used in military operations and that is a bit of a step for a civilian organisation. It's one thing to use the service for logistics and other comms, it's another to use it to direct drones onto targets.

Personally, in Musk's place, I would allow the use for this purpose, but I understand if Musk thinks it's a step too far.

Of course, the cynical part of me thinks he is using it as a bargaining chip to get more money.

while i don't think a moral problem with killing is the reason why he interfered with their use, if he has a problem with his products being used in national defense, he shouldn't be involved in national defense.

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

while i don't think a moral problem with killing is the reason why he interfered with their use, if he has a problem with his products being used in national defense, he shouldn't be involved in national defense.

I disagree with the premise that this is a binary choice. There's a difference between providing a service for civilians in Ukraine, providing communications services to the military in Ukraine and providing the means of directing munitions onto targets in Russian occupied territory.

[dirtywick]

i think the difference is some of that is national defense and some of it is not

[Bogative]

Wait…wuuut???

Russia destroys Ukraine's ability to communicate.

Musk provides an alternative form of communication for Ukraine.

And somehow that means Musk and Putin are best friends???

Well, that makes perfect ******* sense in ****lib world, I suppose.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Bogative

Wait…wuuut???

Russia destroys Ukraine's ability to communicate.

Musk provides an alternative form of communication for Ukraine.

For a large fee... but he pretended that it's a gift, of course.

Originally Posted by Bogative

And somehow that means Musk and Putin are best friends???

No. The part where Musk parrots Putin at times, bows to dictators, and arbitrarily restricts access against the will of his clients to Putin's benefit does quite suggest that Putin has real influence over him, though.

Originally Posted by Bogative

Well, that makes perfect ******* sense in ****lib world, I suppose.

Caricatures do tend to be easy to mock.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Aridas

For a large fee... but he pretended that it's a gift, of course.

It was a gift, at the start. SpaceX provided Ukraine with a number of Starlink terminals, along with service, for free at the start of the conflict. That absolutely counts as a gift.

Those services have since expanded, and the US military has contracted Starlink to provide services in Ukraine for a fee. That's not a gift. But it's still damn useful to Ukraine, and nobody else is in a position to provide similar critical capabilities.

Quote:

No. The part where Musk parrots Putin at times, bows to dictators, and arbitrarily restricts access against the will of his clients to Putin's benefit does quite suggest that Putin has real influence over him, though.

And yet, Ukraine is still getting Starlink services. Whatever influence Putin has, it's much less than what he wants.

Quote:

Caricatures do tend to be easy to mock.

That applies to caricatures of liberals and caricatures of Musk.

[Bogative]

Musk sends Starlink receivers, adapters for cigarette lighters, solar hookups, and backup generators to Ukraine after a cyber attack launched by Russia. He then provides 12 months free service at a cost of $400,000,000 before asking someone else to foot the bill. And the take away is he is a corporate welfare queen and a stooge of Putin…

There are legitimate takes and there are some takes that are just ******* retarded. Not surprised which one is put forth here at the ol' "skeptics" forum.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Bogative

Musk sends Starlink receivers, adapters for cigarette lighters, solar hookups, and backup generators to Ukraine after a cyber attack launched by Russia. He then provides 12 months free service at a cost of $400,000,000 before asking someone else to foot the bill. And the take away is he is a corporate welfare queen and a stooge of Putin…

There are legitimate takes and there are some takes that are just ******* retarded. Not surprised which one is put forth here at the ol' "skeptics" forum.

Imma call BS on that number.

There's no way thats true unless he specifically put up several satellite launches expressly for Ukraine. He didn't.

According to the SpaceX figures shared with the Pentagon, about 85% of the 20,000 terminals in Ukraine were paid – or partially paid – for by countries like the US and Poland or other entities. Those entities also paid for about 30% of the internet connectivity, which SpaceX says costs $4,500 each month per unit for the most advanced service. (Over the weekend, Musk tweeted there are around 25,000 terminals in Ukraine.)

More BS inflated numbers. $4500 a month for the datalink? What's he doing aggregating the cost of each satellite launch that would've gone up anyways??

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/13/polit...ine/index.html

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

More BS inflated numbers. $4500 a month for the datalink? What's he doing aggregating the cost of each satellite launch that would've gone up anyways??

Nope, it's not BS. Top tier service is currently $5k per month.

https://starlink-enterprise-guide.re...-service-plans

Pricing goes up considerably if you want mobility, high priority, AND a large data cap. Conversely, if you can give up any of those three things, you can save a lot as well. If you're doing something like running high def drone footage from the front lines, you want all three. Not everything Ukraine does would require that top tier service, but some of it absolutely would.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Nope, it's not BS. Top tier service is currently $5k per month.

https://starlink-enterprise-guide.re...-service-plans

Pricing goes up considerably if you want mobility, high priority, AND a large data cap. Conversely, if you can give up any of those three things, you can save a lot as well. If you're doing something like running high def drone footage from the front lines, you want all three. Not everything Ukraine does would require that top tier service, but some of it absolutely would.

Price != cost. Starlink had huge startup costs. R&D plus launching satellites. Huge capital expenses, and they have every right to try and recoup those costs with high margin service. But moving those bits around does not cost $4500/month per terminal to operate. It's pure unadulterated bs.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

It was a gift, at the start. SpaceX provided Ukraine with a number of Starlink terminals, along with service, for free at the start of the conflict. That absolutely counts as a gift.

Which is why USAID quietly paid millions and Elon sought to personally take all the credit? What's done is done, either way.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Those services have since expanded, and the US military has contracted Starlink to provide services in Ukraine for a fee. That's not a gift. But it's still damn useful to Ukraine, and nobody else is in a position to provide similar critical capabilities.

Sure. I may believe that there's serious profiteering off of that going on, but meh. It is indeed very useful to Ukraine.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

And yet, Ukraine is still getting Starlink services. Whatever influence Putin has, it's much less than what he wants.

Indeed. Less than Putin wants, but enough to give real basis for concern.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Price != cost.

Sure, but unless you are running a charity, then you don't charge the marginal cost, you charge the price. And the top end price really is 5k per month. That's not a bull **** number. That really is what it's worth.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Aridas

Indeed. Less than Putin wants, but enough to give real basis for concern.

The extent of Putin's influence over Musk is probably a fear (and not completely unfounded) that Putin might assassinate him. Given that Musk is a private individual and not a member of the US military, it's not unreasonable for Musk to not want to take risks with his own life. If he sees that risk profile differently than you or I, well, he's got a right to do that. I don't like the idea that Putin can threaten an American citizen, and that an American citizen might change their actions in response to that threat, but what exactly are we going to do about that? I really don't have a good idea of what we can do. If you do, and it makes sense, then perhaps we should be doing that.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The extent of Putin's influence over Musk is probably a fear (and not completely unfounded) that Putin might assassinate him.

Personally, I don't buy that at all. To poke at two reasons why, well... first, as has been noted elsewhere, one of Putin's talents is to stoke the egos of certain kinds of rich and powerful people and then turns that into leverage to get them to do things for him in various ways. Second, well, the social crowd that Musk has been pandering to is rather too influenced by Russian propaganda, which provides another means to influence Musk.

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The extent of Putin's influence over Musk is probably a fear (and not completely unfounded) that Putin might assassinate him.

[snip]

Is there some reason you think that Musk is afraid Putin might try to assassinate him, or is this just purely hypothetical?

[theprestige]

Why would Putin need to have influence over Musk? Tankies have existed since before Putin. Eccentric wealthy jackasses have existed since before Putin. Useful idiots have existed since before Putin.

Musk's behavior is probably best explained as a conflict between a careless greed and a naive idealism that ignores the depth of Moscow's perfidy in pursuit of a multipolar world. I'm sure Putin would love to have kompromat on the guy. I'm also sure he'd settle for the guy just putting a bit more "useful" into "useful idiot".

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Musk's behavior is probably best explained as a conflict between a careless greed and a naive idealism that ignores the depth of Moscow's perfidy in pursuit of a multipolar world. I'm sure Putin would love to have kompromat on the guy. I'm also sure he'd settle for the guy just putting a bit more "useful" into "useful idiot".

I would likewise also guess that Musk has no particular high opinion of Putin. Musk has all the reflexive contrarianism that comes from being half immersed in online, right wing culture, and suffers from a nearly terminal case of overestimation of his own intelligence.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Is there some reason you think that Musk is afraid Putin might try to assassinate him, or is this just purely hypothetical?

I have no specific information to that effect, I just see it as by far the most likely avenue of influence.

[theprestige]

I think Musk's brand of crazy would lend itself more to the idea that the government of San Francisco is out to get him.

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I would likewise also guess that Musk has no particular high opinion of Putin. Musk has all the reflexive contrarianism that comes from being half immersed in online, right wing culture, and suffers from a nearly terminal case of overestimation of his own intelligence.

i think it's also a combination of social media brain rot and a response to rejection. but what a lot of people fail to realize is that you may think you're on a "side" you don't get a pass to say and do whatever you want. and as he's finding out, the alt right loons he went all in with are just as capricious.

social media influencer is absolutely a what have you done for me lately game

[tyr_13]

In a leaked email, Musk describes demands a certain level of precision in Cybertruck manufacturing.

Quote:

Due to the nature of Cybertruck, which is made of bright metal with mostly straight edges, any dimensional variation shows up like a sore thumb.​

All parts for this vehicle, whether internal or from suppliers, need to be designed and built to sub 10 micron accuracy.​

That means all part dimensions need to be to the third decimal place in millimeters and tolerances need be specified in single digit microns. If LEGO and soda cans, which are very low cost, can do this, so can we.​

Precision predicates perfectionism.​

Elon

This man is a moron. He knows extraordinarily little about manufacturing. The level of precision he is demanding for all parts is an order of magnitude greater than those of Vernier micrometers. He's comparing small items made of more plastic materials (aluminum and literal plastic) to things like stainless steel. The response from any engineer adjacent person would be, 'at what temperature'? The molds for lego cost $200,000 and last a month for plastic and he wants (almost) the same level of accuracy for a stainless steel body several meters long? For a truck that was supposed to be comparatively cheap and robust? The production costs skyrocket when tolerances are that small.

Even taken as the same kind of rhetorical ease as 'give 110%', that's just daft. His demanded initial design choices are just not giving way to the stated design brief. That turd just won't polish. It's a shame as the actual design brief had some merit to it, but then his demands and other design choices more than negate the benefits it was seeking in the first place.

If every dimension is a diamond dimension, then none are.

EDIT: Forgot to link to a source. https://electrek.co/2023/08/23/elon-...d-tesla-email/

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

In a leaked email, Musk describes demands a certain level of precision in Cybertruck manufacturing.



This man is a moron. He knows extraordinarily little about manufacturing. The level of precision he is demanding for all parts is an order of magnitude greater than those of Vernier micrometers. He's comparing small items made of more plastic materials (aluminum and literal plastic) to things like stainless steel. The response from any engineer adjacent person would be, 'at what temperature'? The molds for lego cost $200,000 and last a month for plastic and he wants (almost) the same level of accuracy for a stainless steel body several meters long? For a truck that was supposed to be comparatively cheap and robust? The production costs skyrocket when tolerances are that small.

Even taken as the same kind of rhetorical ease as 'give 110%', that's just daft. His demanded initial design choices are just not giving way to the stated design brief. That turd just won't polish. It's a shame as the actual design brief had some merit to it, but then his demands and other design choices more than negate the benefits it was seeking in the first place.

If every dimension is a diamond dimension, then none are.

It's pretty funny to think about Musk demanding this level of precision from his suppliers only to have a pack of drunk toddlers assemble it crudely at his notoriously poorly run assembly plants.

[lobosrul5]

Are these ******* cybertrucks with their stainless steel bodies going to blind other drivers on the road on sunny days? I've had the sun hit chrome parts and blind me before... entire vehicles that do that?! Please tell me someone, anyone, has thought of this!?

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Are these ******* cybertrucks with their stainless steel bodies going to blind other drivers on the road on sunny days? I've had the sun hit chrome parts and blind me before... entire vehicles that do that?! Please tell me someone, anyone, has thought of this!?

Road safety regulation is a joke in this country. I mean, they're letting Tesla sell cars with "full self driving" that everyone knows doesn't work reliably.

[Bogative]

One of the worst CEOs in the history of history is demanding that his company set a very high standard of manufacturing on a truck that has 1,470,000 preorders. What a ******* moron.


Why can't he go back to screwing up his other company that is getting ready to launch its 12th manned mission to the space station tomorrow. Total loser.

[TurkeysGhost]

It's an especially absurd request given that Tesla is known for having worse than average fit and finish. "Panels don't fit" is a common complaint for Tesla owners who are paying luxury car prices for a finished product with less quality than the cheapest Kia.

Quote:

New Telsa owners love their cars but often struggle with quality control problems. Here’s one owner who figured out how to take care of it DIY style.

Michael Roger, who has a YouTube channel MR Tesla, found some fit-and-finish issues immediately on delivery.

Roger is not alone. Recently, Sandy Munro, of Munro and Associates, one of the most astute observers of Tesla quality control, and this new owner (courtesy of InsideEVs) have both posted videos depicting a variety of issues — among others.

Roger’s post-pickup video goes over the issues, including an uneven area where the upholstery meets the glass roof, some handprint smudges, a small ding, and inconsistent panel gaps in the frunk, trunk, and wheel well area.

Roger, in the video, calls it “typical Tesla stuff” and “disappointing.” Though, to be clear, this doesn’t diminish his love for the car.

The panel gap issue is well known to Model 3 owners. In Roger’s case, it was the inconsistent gaps around his Model Y’s truck and the frunk.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookec...h=2703ff625b38

You really have to admire Musk's marketing skills, because it's hard to imagine so many people being willing to overlook obvious quality control issues if it weren't for the weird cult of personality he's cultivated over the years. Teslas remain a status symbol among certain segments of the population, even with the poorly fitting panels or other signs of amateurish manufacturing.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Bogative

One of the worst CEOs in the history of history is demanding that his company set a very high standard of manufacturing on a truck that has 1,470,000 preorders. What a ******* moron.


Why can't he go back to screwing up his other company that is getting ready to launch its 12th manned mission to the space station tomorrow. Total loser.

It seems that the less he is involved with a company, the better it does.

Of course a cult of personality helps, what other CEO would routinely get away with major products being years late to market ?

[ZirconBlue]

"Frunk"?

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by Bogative

One of the worst CEOs in the history of history is demanding that his company set a very high standard of manufacturing on a truck that has 1,470,000 preorders. What a ******* moron.


Why can't he go back to screwing up his other company that is getting ready to launch its 12th manned mission to the space station tomorrow. Total loser.

Congratulations on also knowing nothing of automotive engineering. Demanding an unworkable and expensive standard is in no way mitigated by pointing out he'd have to sell almost 1.5 million of them at a loss.

Your appeal to false authority just fails.

[TurkeysGhost]

Bragging about pre-orders for a truck that hasn't hit the market yet is also quite funny. Dawg, sales don't count until they actually happen, when goods and money change hands.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

i think it's also a combination of social media brain rot and a response to rejection. but what a lot of people fail to realize is that you may think you're on a "side" you don't get a pass to say and do whatever you want. and as he's finding out, the alt right loons he went all in with are just as capricious.

social media influencer is absolutely a what have you done for me lately game

I can summarize that in a few words..Musk's ego has gone completly out of control.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Bragging about pre-orders for a truck that hasn't hit the market yet is also quite funny. Dawg, sales don't count until they actually happen, when goods and money change hands.

In the normal world yes, in Elon fan-boi-world they're happy to shove money at him for a pre-order that arrives 5 years late and not meeting promised features etc.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

In the normal world yes, in Elon fan-boi-world they're happy to shove money at him for a pre-order that arrives 5 years late and not meeting promised features etc.

AIUI the pre-order involves a $100 refundable deposit so it's not really a major gamble on behalf of those doing it. There may be people placing many orders in the hope that that can flip the truck for a tidy profit or sell their place on the waiting list.

The key test will be when they have to pay (tens of ?) thousands of dollars more than they expected for a significantly less capable or attractive truck.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

"Frunk"?

FRont trUNK.

Handy place to store stuff since there's no engine up there.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

It's an especially absurd request given that Tesla is known for having worse than average fit and finish...

You really have to admire Musk's marketing skills,

That's right. You should also recognize that's what this is.

Quote:

because it's hard to imagine so many people being willing to overlook obvious quality control issues if it weren't for the weird cult of personality he's cultivated over the years. Teslas remain a status symbol among certain segments of the population, even with the poorly fitting panels or other signs of amateurish manufacturing.

Many people are not overlooking it. Since being made aware of the panel fit 'issue' I have been taking a close look at every Tesla I see. So far I haven't found any evidence of it. Also many Tesla owners have stated that the build quality of their cars is fine.

Meanwhile...

Ford recalling 125,000 SUVs and trucks that could catch fire

Quote:

Ford is recalling more than 125,000 Escape SUVs, Maverick pickups and Lincoln Corsair luxury SUVs because their engines could leak fluids and catch fire.

Most of these vehicles were recalled for the same issue last year. At that time, Ford and Lincoln dealers made alterations to the vehicles, at no cost to owners, to allow for drainage of leaking fluid and fumes. Fires still occurred on vehicles that had the work done, though.

Ford recalls 870,000 F-150 trucks for unexpected parking brake application

Quote:

Ford has recalled more than 870,000 of its full-sized F-150 trucks because the electronic parking brake could engage unexpectedly at any time, including while the vehicle is being driven. That could cause a loss of control and possibly a crash...

In some of the trucks, a wiring harness can rub against the rear axle housing, gradually wearing away insulating material on the wires. Corrosion on the axle housing could make this problem worse...

So far, Ford is aware of 299 instances of the parking brake activating unintentionally and 19 of those incidents occurred while the vehicle was being driven.

Ford recalls 422,000 SUVs because rear view camera display may fail

Quote:

Ford Motor Co (F.N) is recalling 422,000 sport utility vehicles in the United States because the video output may fail even after getting a prior recall repair, preventing the rear view camera image from displaying.

The new recall covers 2020 through 2023 Ford Explorer, Lincoln Aviator, and 2020-2022 Lincoln Corsair SUVs with a 360-degree camera.

The recall expands and replaces prior Ford callbacks for the same issue in 2021 and 2023. Ford last year updated the image processing module (IPMB) software in an effort to address the issue...

Last year, Ford said it had reports of 17 minor crashes relating to the recall issue and more than 2,100 warranty reports.

I saw a photo of a Ford Escape that 'caught fire'. Wasn't much left of it. Having narrowly escaped that same situation some years ago in my own Ford gas car I commiserate. Strangely though, nobody is demonizing Jim Farley for making vehicles that could incinerate their owners.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

That's right. You should also recognize that's what this is.

Many people are not overlooking it. Since being made aware of the panel fit 'issue' I have been taking a close look at every Tesla I see. So far I haven't found any evidence of it. Also many Tesla owners have stated that the build quality of their cars is fine.

Meanwhile...

Ford recalling 125,000 SUVs and trucks that could catch fire

Ford recalls 870,000 F-150 trucks for unexpected parking brake application

Ford recalls 422,000 SUVs because rear view camera display may fail


I saw a photo of a Ford Escape that 'caught fire'. Wasn't much left of it. Having narrowly escaped that same situation some years ago in my own Ford gas car I commiserate. Strangely though, nobody is demonizing Jim Farley for making vehicles that could incinerate their owners.

I'm not sure what you mean, American cars have a reputation for being inferior and American trucks remain dominant on the market in no small part because of protectionist policies. Ford makes pretty lousy vehicles (and it's probably the better of the major American manufacturers) and people talk about this all the time.

I"m guessing nobody is roasting the Ford CEO because the public has a much more realistic approach to their automobiles and there isn't the same weird cult of personality.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Bragging about pre-orders for a REALLY STUPID LOOKING truck that hasn't hit the market yet is also quite funny. Dawg, sales don't count until they actually happen, when goods and money change hands.

Fixed that for you. I hope my subtle editing is not so subtle that I get a yellow card.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

In a leaked email, Musk describes demands a certain level of precision in Cybertruck manufacturing.



This man is a moron. He knows extraordinarily little about manufacturing. The level of precision he is demanding for all parts is an order of magnitude greater than those of Vernier micrometers. He's comparing small items made of more plastic materials (aluminum and literal plastic) to things like stainless steel. The response from any engineer adjacent person would be, 'at what temperature'? The molds for lego cost $200,000 and last a month for plastic and he wants (almost) the same level of accuracy for a stainless steel body several meters long? For a truck that was supposed to be comparatively cheap and robust? The production costs skyrocket when tolerances are that small.

Even taken as the same kind of rhetorical ease as 'give 110%', that's just daft. His demanded initial design choices are just not giving way to the stated design brief. That turd just won't polish. It's a shame as the actual design brief had some merit to it, but then his demands and other design choices more than negate the benefits it was seeking in the first place.

If every dimension is a diamond dimension, then none are.

EDIT: Forgot to link to a source. https://electrek.co/2023/08/23/elon-...d-tesla-email/

No need to stress about it. His staff have all learned to let him blabber on in peace and just ignore him.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I'm not sure what you mean, American cars have a reputation for being inferior and American trucks remain dominant on the market in no small part because of protectionist policies. Ford makes pretty lousy vehicles (and it's probably the better of the major American manufacturers) and people talk about this all the time.

I"m guessing nobody is roasting the Ford CEO because the public has a much more realistic approach to their automobiles and there isn't the same weird cult of personality.

? On what are you basing that the usa protects the truck industry and what are basing that Ford makes ****** cars? The 1970s and 1980s are long gone.

Are you unaware that there are imported trucks in the USA from overseas, some quite popular? And are you unaware that Ford sells a **** ton of vehicles outside the USA?

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

? On what are you basing that the usa protects the truck industry and what are basing that Ford makes ****** cars? The 1970s and 1980s are long gone.

Are you unaware that there are imported trucks in the USA from overseas, some quite popular? And are you unaware that Ford sells a **** ton of vehicles outside the USA?

The 25% "chicken tax" on foreign import trucks is still very much active and influencing the market. Foreign trucks that are sold on the US market are either manufactured in the US (or Mexico thanks to NAFTA) or are imported under dubious tariff evasion schemes that are constantly in risk of being shut down. There are many trucks that might be popular in the US market that are not available because of the tariff.

Ford is popular because their vehicles are an ok quality product at their price point. Consumers are realistic about what they're buying, unlike Musk fanbois who are paying luxury car prices for a below-average quality car.

The closest parallel to Musk fanbois are Americans who insist on buying expensive pickup trucks despite having no real ongoing need for one. The Big 3 make a lot of their business selling trucks to people who don't need them, but there's no accounting for taste I suppose.

Ford makes **** cars, like their small and midsize sedans that had to be recalled en masse because the automatic transmission was inherently flawed, with some evidence that Ford knew about the flawed design but proceeded mass producing and selling them anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_P...ulty_operation

Ford doesn't even sell ICE sedans anymore on the US market, they've thrown in towel. They instead focus on their Truck, SUV, and Mustang lines

The war over the light commuter car is over, the foreign manufacturers have won. If you want a sedan in the US you're probably looking at Toyota or Honda if you have the money, or Kia if you're going economy.

Quote:

American automakers scrap cars, ceding market to foreign makes

A slew of sedans on auto show floors may well be missing or on death row by this time next year. U.S. automakers would effectively be waving the white flag after decades of ceding share in these segments to Japanese and Korean car brands. President Donald Trump's vow to relax fuel economy rules could add momentum to the SUV and truck boom and invite General Motors and Ford to pull the plug on some passenger cars.