[Split Thread] Trump Document indictment (as opposed to other indictments)

Checkmite · 9th June 2023, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

You very well may be right. But just because there isn't evidence of it doesn't mean Trump didn't do it. There are hundreds of documents missing including documents Trump bragged about having.

Well, note the parenthetical I used. I don't think it's likely that Trump intended to give away or sell information to foreign governments, but that shouldn't minimalize the danger because Mar-a-Lago had to have been hosting agents from multiple foreign countries from the moment Trump's personal ambitions became apparent, because Trump is a notorious braggart and could be reliably depended upon to have loose lips. All it takes to get close to him even today is flashing a large enough wad of cash, and he is critically susceptible to flattery.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Obviously Trump constantly feels a deep seeded need to show off. But boxes and boxes just sat in various places throughout Mar a Lago and Trump didn’t appear to be looking at them. Which makes whatever reasoning he had to deliberately keep them when they were subpoenaed truly bizarre.

I think by that point the fact that there was an investigation all by itself made Trump panic.

I think the fact that the documents were initially being stored in bathrooms and hallways and storage closets and wherever else they could fit, meant that early on Trump didn't particularly care what exactly he had or what was in them all that much. Once the word "subpoena" started floating around however, he became intensely interested in them, just because now they were a liability and he needed to know exactly which regions of his ass needed covering.

split from

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post14091339

Posted By:jimbob

Craig4 · 9th June 2023, 02:08 PM

He's going to knock back a jilted lover's cocktail before he sees the inside of a prison.

lobosrul5 · 9th June 2023, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

He's going to knock back a jilted lover's cocktail before he sees the inside of a prison.

Bwahaha, no. Trumps way too big of a coward for that.

acbytesla · 9th June 2023, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Well, note the parenthetical I used. I don't think it's likely that Trump intended to give away or sell information to foreign governments, but that shouldn't minimalize the danger because Mar-a-Lago had to have been hosting agents from multiple foreign countries from the moment Trump's personal ambitions became apparent, because Trump is a notorious braggart and could be reliably depended upon to have loose lips. All it takes to get close to him even today is flashing a large enough wad of cash, and he is critically susceptible to flattery.

Except Trump has proven he would sell his children if there was a dollar in it for him

Originally Posted by Checkmite

I think by that point the fact that there was an investigation all by itself made Trump panic.

I think the fact that the documents were initially being stored in bathrooms and hallways and storage closets and wherever else they could fit, meant that early on Trump didn't particularly care what exactly he had or what was in them all that much. Once the word "subpoena" started floating around however, he became intensely interested in them, just because now they were a liability and he needed to know exactly which regions of his ass needed covering.

NARA tried for months and months on end to retrieve the documents before they resorted to subpoenas.

Norman Alexander · 9th June 2023, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

NARA tried for months and months on end to retrieve the documents before they resorted to subpoenas.

Trump has made a number of overseas trips in his crappy private jet since this all kicked off to "check how things are running there". And documents are STILL unaccounted for...

varwoche · 9th June 2023, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

I'm considering the radical hypothesis that Trump took and then attempted to hold onto the documents because he wanted the documents. Not as "souvenirs" or because of orneriness but because he thought he could use them politically in some way, perhaps to embarrass someone he dislikes who's mentioned in them.

I doubt his motives will be particularly relevant to any court case, so we will likely never know.

They've subpoenaed records of his business transactions with Saudi, Turkey and several other countries.

smartcooky · 9th June 2023, 02:37 PM

There is also audio of The Fat Orange Turd, recorded at Bedminster, that directly contradicts his claim that he had an absolute right to declassify documents, that he could do so just by thinking about it, and that they were automatically declassified when he took them....

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/09/p...ion/index.html

"As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,"

"Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this. This was done by the military and given to me."

"They presented me this – this is off the record, but – they presented me this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him. We looked at some. This was him. This wasn't done by me, this was him."

"All sorts of stuff – pages long, look. Wait a minute, let's see here. I just found, isn't that amazing? This totally wins my case*, you know. Except it is like, highly confidential. Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this."

*NOTE: To be clear, the "case" here refers to his dispute with Gen Mark Milley, and not the Federal Documents case.

Gulliver Foyle · 9th June 2023, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

This is a man who had fake Time covers of himself made up, framed, and hung prominently in his offices and personal spaces. His primary motivation in life is impressing people.

I see no evidence that he sold or even (intentionally) conveyed any of this information to foreign countries, or ever planned to. In my opinion, Trump kept them for no other reason than to do what he was caught on tape doing: showing them off to other people to try and impress them and/or win arguments.

This is, at a fundamental level, no different from that ANG analyst who leaked classified docs to his Discord buddies purely to prove that he had access to them.

Indeed, Trump is a small little man trying to look big but too stupid to understand how to actually go about doing it.

Though I think he did also intend to also prpfit from his theft. At the very core of his soul Trump is a criminal and a grifter. There's no doubt in my mind that he thought he could pull it off. Remember, with small little men like Trump they also want to convince others they're the biggest, the best, the strongest and the smartest in the room and the first person they convince is themselves. And with Trump he doesn't have the brains to have that nagging little doubt in his mind, what Pratchett called Second Thoughts, which pulls one back from the brink if you listen.

JayUtah · 9th June 2023, 02:52 PM

I love how the higher-quality photos from the indictment shows what a run-down dump Mar-a-Lago is.

pgwenthold · 9th June 2023, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Trump has no sense of propriety or rules. It's his crocodilian brain stem alone that rules him. It's all about him, right now, all the time. What we call cheating is to him getting the job done. To us, it's stealing nuclear secrets. To him, it's taking souvenirs.

Remember, his business experience is that of a CEO. He is the boss and can do what he wants, and is not accountable to anyone.

That's his entire schtick.

lobosrul5 · 9th June 2023, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

I love how the higher-quality photos from the indictment shows what a run-down dump Mar-a-Lago is.

The bathroom is pretty bizzare. Ordinary, to even low end windows and toilet... and then the super gaudy fixtures and mirror.

JayUtah · 9th June 2023, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

The bathroom is pretty bizarre.

Yeah, but given his propensity to flush incriminating documents down the toilet, that may just be his filing room.

Quote:

Ordinary, to even low end windows and toilet... and then the super gaudy fixtures and mirror.

Yeah...

I've had the displeasure of staying in a Trump property before (not at my expense). That's what you get: low-end trash painted gold. And the Trump groupies just all agree that it's the best thing they've ever seen.

And that's Trump in a nutshell. He's fundamentally just a small, insecure man who keeps classified documents as trophies to prove to other people just how very important he is. He has no substance, so he relies on various metaphorical gold paints.

Foster Zygote · 9th June 2023, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

I love how the higher-quality photos from the indictment shows what a run-down dump Mar-a-Lago is.

The ballroom stage photo shows that Trump is one of those people who doesn't know when to stop decorating. It's uncanny how much it looks like the inside of a Trinity Broadcasting Network preacher's house, or even one of their stage sets. It's a perfect metaphor for his personality - a gaudy, ostentatious, pretentious façade covering a hollow shell of garbage.

Foster Zygote · 9th June 2023, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Remember, his business experience is that of a CEO. He is the boss and can do what he wants, and is not accountable to anyone.

That's his entire schtick.

Yeah, the whole 'walking off with classified documents and showing them to anyone he wants' is just an extension of his "grab 'em by the pussy" attitude toward any limitations.

Hercules56 · 9th June 2023, 04:12 PM

I have a big question: seems a good part of the indictment is based on statements made by Trump's lawyers to the investigators. Isn't all of that protected by attorney client privilege? Can't Trump's attorneys now have all that evidence stricken from The trial? If a suspect knew that his attorney could testify against him why would he ever admit to anything to his attorneys anymore?

eerok · 9th June 2023, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I have a big question: seems a good part of the indictment is based on statements made by Trump's lawyers to the investigators. Isn't all of that protected by attorney client privilege? Can't Trump's attorneys now have all that evidence stricken from The trial? If a suspect knew that his attorney could testify against him why would he ever admit to anything to his attorneys anymore?

If the statements are part of an illegal action, they're not protected.

Aridas · 9th June 2023, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I have a big question: seems a good part of the indictment is based on statements made by Trump's lawyers to the investigators. Isn't all of that protected by attorney client privilege? Can't Trump's attorneys now have all that evidence stricken from The trial? If a suspect knew that his attorney could testify against him why would he ever admit to anything to his attorneys anymore?

Link to a more in depth explanation on a major exception -

The Crime-Fraud Exception to the Attorney-Client Privilege
Not all attorney-client communications are privileged.

Quote:

The crime-fraud exception applies if:

- the client was in the process of committing or intended to commit a crime or fraudulent act, and
- the client communicated with the lawyer with intent to further the crime or fraud, or to cover it up.

In short, no, the evidence should not be able to be stricken from the trial here.

ETA: As for why they'd communicate with attorneys... at last check, the official purpose of attorneys has always been to uphold justice by making sure that their clients are correctly advised about legal matters and represented by those knowledgeable and capable. That this purpose is frequently subverted in practice doesn't mean that we should be accepting of the subversion.

Hercules56 · 9th June 2023, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Link to a more in depth explanation on a major exception -

The Crime-Fraud Exception to the Attorney-Client Privilege
Not all attorney-client communications are privileged.

In short, no, the evidence should not be able to be stricken from the trial here.

Gotcha. Well there you go. Thanks.

He's toast.

Norman Alexander · 9th June 2023, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Remember, his business experience is that of a CEO. He is the boss and can do what he wants, and is not accountable to anyone.

That's his entire schtick.

The vast majority of the far richer and more powerful CEO's who could buy themselves a couple of small countries each year don't behave that badly. Sure, they have lifestyles of the rich and famous, mega-liners and fleets of private jets. But they probably don't buy the presidency of the USA and stash stolen state secrets in the loo.

Tero · 9th June 2023, 04:58 PM

It could have been worse. They could have found his boxes in an episode of Storage Wars in a locker with rent not paid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_Wars

Skeptic Ginger · 9th June 2023, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

... I see no evidence that he sold or even (intentionally) conveyed any of this information to foreign countries, or ever planned to. ....

A'hem, regarding no evidence:

Just after Trump took office in 2017 Kushner (and Trump in a separate visit) went to Saudi Arabia. Shortly thereafter Prince Kashogi-murderer purged the royal conglomerate of perceived threats to his power. Speculation is Kushner (with information Trump gave him) passed on CIA collected data about those threats.

Just after Trump lost the 2020 election, Prince Kashogi-murderer gave Kushner 2 billion dollars laundered through a supposed investment fund.

Your claim there is no evidence, maybe you should change that to no current actionable evidence we have clear proof of.

Skeptic Ginger · 9th June 2023, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

... Not as "souvenirs" or because of orneriness but because he thought he could use them politically in some way, perhaps to embarrass someone he dislikes who's mentioned in them....

Not mutually exclusive motives.

I think we can consider the overall purpose of him keeping any of these documents would have been his idea he could use them as an extension of the power he felt as POTUS: Bragging, revenge, and trading for gain of some kind., not necessarily in that order.

Norman Alexander · 9th June 2023, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

I love how the higher-quality photos from the indictment shows what a run-down dump Mar-a-Lago is.

The previous owner, Marjorie Post, made it into her mansion away from Washington. She was very particular about doing style well, and had the fortune to afford the best. Apparently Trump had the good stuff ripped out when he bought and renovated the place. This is the same place that Trump valued at over $750 million when it was really worth less than $75 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar-a-Lago

Skeptic Ginger · 9th June 2023, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

I dunno, the descriptors of the documents mostly appear to be things that wouldn't embarrass a person. Nuclear capabilities etc? Who will be embarrassed?

Macron has been mentioned for one.

Skeptic Ginger · 9th June 2023, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Well, note the parenthetical I used. I don't think it's likely that Trump intended to give away or sell information to foreign governments, ...

Even people who are not Trump supporters are reluctant to think the worst of him. Hard to believe even an evil person would have such a motive but Trump? Why not? We've seen with direct evidence he is that bad. No need to pull speculative punches.

Originally Posted by Checkmite

I think the fact that the documents were initially being stored in bathrooms and hallways and storage closets and wherever else they could fit, meant that early on Trump didn't particularly care what exactly he had or what was in them all that much. Once the word "subpoena" started floating around however, he became intensely interested in them, just because now they were a liability and he needed to know exactly which regions of his ass needed covering.

I can't be the only person who was shocked to see he had that many boxes.

acbytesla · 9th June 2023, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I have a big question: seems a good part of the indictment is based on statements made by Trump's lawyers to the investigators. Isn't all of that protected by attorney client privilege? Can't Trump's attorneys now have all that evidence stricken from The trial? If a suspect knew that his attorney could testify against him why would he ever admit to anything to his attorneys anymore?

Attorney client privilege doesn't protect a client as well as many people think. There is something called the crime fraud exception. An attorney cannot help a client hiding a crime. In fact, they are duty bound as an officer of the court to report it. Ninja'd big time!

William Parcher · 9th June 2023, 05:27 PM

Reports say that about 100 documents are classified. He has thousands more that are not classified. I think I read that on CNN.

Skeptic Ginger · 9th June 2023, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Indeed, Trump is a small little man trying to look big but too stupid to understand how to actually go about doing it.

Really? Just because a lot of us see him as that whiny baby in diapers doesn't mean he hasn't successfully accomplished making himself look spectacularly bigly. Some in his cult even see him as akin to Jesus.

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Though I think he did also intend to also prpfit from his theft. At the very core of his soul Trump is a criminal and a grifter. There's no doubt in my mind that he thought he could pull it off. Remember, with small little men like Trump they also want to convince others they're the biggest, the best, the strongest and the smartest in the room and the first person they convince is themselves. And with Trump he doesn't have the brains to have that nagging little doubt in his mind, what Pratchett called Second Thoughts, which pulls one back from the brink if you listen.

I agree with the bolded part but I think he vacillates between his ego hitting rock bottom and rising above the clouds on a regular basis.

Checkmite · 9th June 2023, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Reports say that about 100 documents are classified. He has thousands more that are not classified. I think I read that on CNN.

Yeah, I think it was altogether a couple hundred classified documents; but in any case, those stacks and stacks of boxes are not full of classified docs, rather that the ones he had were scattered throughout them haphazardly.

The exception is probably the boxes that were photographed being taken aboard Trump's private jet. It seems to be alleged that those specifically were classified docs that Trump had selected and was taking away from Mar-a-Lago in order to hide them from his own attorney's search.

Orphia Nay · 9th June 2023, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Images of a huge number of boxes stashed at Mar-a-lago

The Guardian

No suggestion as to what's in them, mind

Next to the toilet, no less.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Not mutually exclusive motives.

I think we can consider the overall purpose of him keeping any of these documents would have been his idea he could use them as an extension of the power he felt as POTUS: Bragging, revenge, and trading for gain of some kind., not necessarily in that order.

Plus, it looks like he's a hoarder to some extent.

newyorkguy · 9th June 2023, 05:46 PM

trump often referred to Mar-a-Lago as an "armed fort."

trump even 'truthed': "What I did was RIGHT, Secured documents in a secured place!"

MAGA!!!

pgwenthold · 9th June 2023, 05:54 PM

So apparently the defense is going to be that he considers them "personal records" and therefore is allowed to keep them, based on precedent from Clinton.

Of course, there are problems with that claim.
1) It's hard to argue that classified documents are his personal papers
2) The grand jury was presented with that defense and basically laughed it out of the room
3) the National Archives have created an FAQ explaining why it's all nonsense and that there are clear criteria for what constitutes personal papers
4) I thought they were planted by the fbi? No wait, he declassified them? Oh, it's that he is allowed to have them?

Crazy Chainsaw · 9th June 2023, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

38 counts, devastating.

Having formerly had access myself to classified documents and information, I really think this will not go well. If convicted, it's highly unlikely he will avoid a custodial sentence.

Those Secret Service agents are not going to like sitting in a Cell with Trump, Mitch McConnell should have Impeached him.

newyorkguy · 9th June 2023, 06:16 PM

Apparently trump's base is reaching the boiling point. MSN reports on a story that appeared on Raw Story:

Quote:

“We need to start killing these traitorous f---stains,” wrote one person on the the pro-Trump messaging board, The Donald.
“It's not gonna stop until bodies start stacking up. We are not civilly represented anymore and they'll come for us next. Some of us, they already have," wrote another.
Another person shared an article about Attorney General Merrick Garland's family, prompting one user to reply, “His children are fair game as far as I’m concerned.”

MSN news link

Congressman Andy Biggs agrees, as he tweeted. And on his official Congressional Twitter account no less!

MAGA!!!

Checkmite · 9th June 2023, 06:36 PM

Of all the adventures outlined in the indictment, I think I've decided that my favorite is how Trump and his Top Men spent days going through the boxes culling and moving the classified documents in advance of the planned audit by the attorney, leaving only a couple dozen behind for the attorney to find, and then when the attorney finds them, Trump actually has the nerve to ask him if he found anything too problematic. "What's it look like, is it good or bad?"

acbytesla · 9th June 2023, 06:46 PM

This is just the beginning. I'm betting Trump is going to be indicted on many more charges. There is still January 6th. There is election interference. I bet Fani Willis will indict Trump in Georgia by the end of June.

lobosrul5 · 9th June 2023, 07:48 PM

https://twitter.com/McJesse/status/1667296912943493120

(no I did not post this in the wrong thread, watch it til the end)

The Great Zaganza · 9th June 2023, 07:50 PM

The type of documents sound like something an uninformed person like Trump would think some foreign power would want to buy.

It's basically movie -type espionage stuff, not what Russia, China or the Saudis are really after.

The Great Zaganza · 9th June 2023, 07:55 PM

The sentence in this case will probably be much worse than in the Jan 6th case - even though it should be the other way around.

Reason being that in the run-up to the insurrection and on that day, Trump actually was President (unlike during most crimes in the Documents case); and Courts are extremely reluctant to punish a President for what they did in Office.
Republican Presidents, that is.

acbytesla · 9th June 2023, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

The type of documents sound like something an uninformed person like Trump would think some foreign power would want to buy.

It's basically movie -type espionage stuff, not what Russia, China or the Saudis are really after.

I don't think we know that. We have no idea the depth and extent of the documents Trump had. There were classified documents that even the jury will not see.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=dGvqxrnS5vU&feature=share9

9th June 2023, 02:08 PM	#2
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 27,439	He's going to knock back a jilted lover's cocktail before he sees the inside of a prison.
	__________________ Fight like a Ukrainian.

9th June 2023, 02:10 PM	#3
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,175	Originally Posted by Craig4 He's going to knock back a jilted lover's cocktail before he sees the inside of a prison. Bwahaha, no. Trumps way too big of a coward for that.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,175

9th June 2023, 02:11 PM	#4
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 32,527	Originally Posted by Checkmite Well, note the parenthetical I used. I don't think it's likely that Trump intended to give away or sell information to foreign governments, but that shouldn't minimalize the danger because Mar-a-Lago had to have been hosting agents from multiple foreign countries from the moment Trump's personal ambitions became apparent, because Trump is a notorious braggart and could be reliably depended upon to have loose lips. All it takes to get close to him even today is flashing a large enough wad of cash, and he is critically susceptible to flattery. Except Trump has proven he would sell his children if there was a dollar in it for him Originally Posted by Checkmite I think by that point the fact that there was an investigation all by itself made Trump panic. I think the fact that the documents were initially being stored in bathrooms and hallways and storage closets and wherever else they could fit, meant that early on Trump didn't particularly care what exactly he had or what was in them all that much. Once the word "subpoena" started floating around however, he became intensely interested in them, just because now they were a liability and he needed to know exactly which regions of his ass needed covering. NARA tried for months and months on end to retrieve the documents before they resorted to subpoenas.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

9th June 2023, 02:15 PM	#5
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 15,743	Originally Posted by acbytesla NARA tried for months and months on end to retrieve the documents before they resorted to subpoenas. Trump has made a number of overseas trips in his crappy private jet since this all kicked off to "check how things are running there". And documents are STILL unaccounted for...
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015} Last edited by Norman Alexander; 9th June 2023 at 02:16 PM.

9th June 2023, 02:23 PM	#6
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 17,006	Originally Posted by Myriad I'm considering the radical hypothesis that Trump took and then attempted to hold onto the documents because he wanted the documents. Not as "souvenirs" or because of orneriness but because he thought he could use them politically in some way, perhaps to embarrass someone he dislikes who's mentioned in them. I doubt his motives will be particularly relevant to any court case, so we will likely never know. They've subpoenaed records of his business transactions with Saudi, Turkey and several other countries.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

9th June 2023, 02:37 PM	#7
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 24,549	There is also audio of The Fat Orange Turd, recorded at Bedminster, that directly contradicts his claim that he had an absolute right to declassify documents, that he could do so just by thinking about it, and that they were automatically declassified when he took them.... https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/09/p...ion/index.html "As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t," "Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this. This was done by the military and given to me." "They presented me this – this is off the record, but – they presented me this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him. We looked at some. This was him. This wasn't done by me, this was him." "All sorts of stuff – pages long, look. Wait a minute, let's see here. I just found, isn't that amazing? This totally wins my case, you know. Except it is like, highly confidential. Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this." NOTE: To be clear, the "case" here refers to his dispute with Gen Mark Milley, and not the Federal Documents case.
	__________________ Its TRE45ON season... indict the F45CIST!!

9th June 2023, 02:50 PM	#8
Gulliver Foyle Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 2,503	Originally Posted by Checkmite This is a man who had fake Time covers of himself made up, framed, and hung prominently in his offices and personal spaces. His primary motivation in life is impressing people. I see no evidence that he sold or even (intentionally) conveyed any of this information to foreign countries, or ever planned to. In my opinion, Trump kept them for no other reason than to do what he was caught on tape doing: showing them off to other people to try and impress them and/or win arguments. This is, at a fundamental level, no different from that ANG analyst who leaked classified docs to his Discord buddies purely to prove that he had access to them. Indeed, Trump is a small little man trying to look big but too stupid to understand how to actually go about doing it. Though I think he did also intend to also prpfit from his theft. At the very core of his soul Trump is a criminal and a grifter. There's no doubt in my mind that he thought he could pull it off. Remember, with small little men like Trump they also want to convince others they're the biggest, the best, the strongest and the smartest in the room and the first person they convince is themselves. And with Trump he doesn't have the brains to have that nagging little doubt in his mind, what Pratchett called Second Thoughts, which pulls one back from the brink if you listen.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

9th June 2023, 02:52 PM	#9
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 23,513	I love how the higher-quality photos from the indictment shows what a run-down dump Mar-a-Lago is.

9th June 2023, 02:55 PM	#10
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 21,271	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Trump has no sense of propriety or rules. It's his crocodilian brain stem alone that rules him. It's all about him, right now, all the time. What we call cheating is to him getting the job done. To us, it's stealing nuclear secrets. To him, it's taking souvenirs. Remember, his business experience is that of a CEO. He is the boss and can do what he wants, and is not accountable to anyone. That's his entire schtick.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

9th June 2023, 02:58 PM	#11
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,175	Originally Posted by JayUtah I love how the higher-quality photos from the indictment shows what a run-down dump Mar-a-Lago is. The bathroom is pretty bizzare. Ordinary, to even low end windows and toilet... and then the super gaudy fixtures and mirror.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,175

9th June 2023, 03:11 PM	#12
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 23,513	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 The bathroom is pretty bizarre. Yeah, but given his propensity to flush incriminating documents down the toilet, that may just be his filing room. Quote: Ordinary, to even low end windows and toilet... and then the super gaudy fixtures and mirror. Yeah... I've had the displeasure of staying in a Trump property before (not at my expense). That's what you get: low-end trash painted gold. And the Trump groupies just all agree that it's the best thing they've ever seen. And that's Trump in a nutshell. He's fundamentally just a small, insecure man who keeps classified documents as trophies to prove to other people just how very important he is. He has no substance, so he relies on various metaphorical gold paints.

9th June 2023, 03:18 PM	#13
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,064	Originally Posted by JayUtah I love how the higher-quality photos from the indictment shows what a run-down dump Mar-a-Lago is. The ballroom stage photo shows that Trump is one of those people who doesn't know when to stop decorating. It's uncanny how much it looks like the inside of a Trinity Broadcasting Network preacher's house, or even one of their stage sets. It's a perfect metaphor for his personality - a gaudy, ostentatious, pretentious façade covering a hollow shell of garbage.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

9th June 2023, 03:21 PM	#14
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,064	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Remember, his business experience is that of a CEO. He is the boss and can do what he wants, and is not accountable to anyone. That's his entire schtick. Yeah, the whole 'walking off with classified documents and showing them to anyone he wants' is just an extension of his "grab 'em by the pussy" attitude toward any limitations.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

9th June 2023, 04:12 PM	#15
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	I have a big question: seems a good part of the indictment is based on statements made by Trump's lawyers to the investigators. Isn't all of that protected by attorney client privilege? Can't Trump's attorneys now have all that evidence stricken from The trial? If a suspect knew that his attorney could testify against him why would he ever admit to anything to his attorneys anymore?
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

9th June 2023, 04:40 PM	#16
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 5,470	Originally Posted by Hercules56 I have a big question: seems a good part of the indictment is based on statements made by Trump's lawyers to the investigators. Isn't all of that protected by attorney client privilege? Can't Trump's attorneys now have all that evidence stricken from The trial? If a suspect knew that his attorney could testify against him why would he ever admit to anything to his attorneys anymore? If the statements are part of an illegal action, they're not protected.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

9th June 2023, 04:41 PM	#17
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 10,276	Originally Posted by Hercules56 I have a big question: seems a good part of the indictment is based on statements made by Trump's lawyers to the investigators. Isn't all of that protected by attorney client privilege? Can't Trump's attorneys now have all that evidence stricken from The trial? If a suspect knew that his attorney could testify against him why would he ever admit to anything to his attorneys anymore? Link to a more in depth explanation on a major exception - The Crime-Fraud Exception to the Attorney-Client Privilege Not all attorney-client communications are privileged. Quote: The crime-fraud exception applies if: - the client was in the process of committing or intended to commit a crime or fraudulent act, and - the client communicated with the lawyer with intent to further the crime or fraud, or to cover it up. In short, no, the evidence should not be able to be stricken from the trial here. ETA: As for why they'd communicate with attorneys... at last check, the official purpose of attorneys has always been to uphold justice by making sure that their clients are correctly advised about legal matters and represented by those knowledgeable and capable. That this purpose is frequently subverted in practice doesn't mean that we should be accepting of the subversion.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 9th June 2023 at 04:51 PM.

9th June 2023, 04:46 PM	#18
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by Aridas Link to a more in depth explanation on a major exception - The Crime-Fraud Exception to the Attorney-Client Privilege Not all attorney-client communications are privileged. In short, no, the evidence should not be able to be stricken from the trial here. Gotcha. Well there you go. Thanks. He's toast.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

9th June 2023, 04:50 PM	#19
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 15,743	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Remember, his business experience is that of a CEO. He is the boss and can do what he wants, and is not accountable to anyone. That's his entire schtick. The vast majority of the far richer and more powerful CEO's who could buy themselves a couple of small countries each year don't behave that badly. Sure, they have lifestyles of the rich and famous, mega-liners and fleets of private jets. But they probably don't buy the presidency of the USA and stash stolen state secrets in the loo.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

9th June 2023, 04:58 PM	#20
Tero Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North American prairie Posts: 3,188	It could have been worse. They could have found his boxes in an episode of Storage Wars in a locker with rent not paid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_Wars
	__________________ Dominus vo-bisque'em Et cum spear a tu-tu, oh! Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/ Parody: http://karireport.blogspot.com/ Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/

9th June 2023, 05:02 PM	#21
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 95,220	Originally Posted by Checkmite ... I see no evidence that he sold or even (intentionally) conveyed any of this information to foreign countries, or ever planned to. .... A'hem, regarding no evidence: Just after Trump took office in 2017 Kushner (and Trump in a separate visit) went to Saudi Arabia. Shortly thereafter Prince Kashogi-murderer purged the royal conglomerate of perceived threats to his power. Speculation is Kushner (with information Trump gave him) passed on CIA collected data about those threats. Just after Trump lost the 2020 election, Prince Kashogi-murderer gave Kushner 2 billion dollars laundered through a supposed investment fund. Your claim there is no evidence, maybe you should change that to no current actionable evidence we have clear proof of.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 9th June 2023 at 05:03 PM.

9th June 2023, 05:13 PM	#22
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 95,220	Originally Posted by Myriad ... Not as "souvenirs" or because of orneriness but because he thought he could use them politically in some way, perhaps to embarrass someone he dislikes who's mentioned in them.... Not mutually exclusive motives. I think we can consider the overall purpose of him keeping any of these documents would have been his idea he could use them as an extension of the power he felt as POTUS: Bragging, revenge, and trading for gain of some kind., not necessarily in that order.

9th June 2023, 05:14 PM	#23
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 15,743	Originally Posted by JayUtah I love how the higher-quality photos from the indictment shows what a run-down dump Mar-a-Lago is. The previous owner, Marjorie Post, made it into her mansion away from Washington. She was very particular about doing style well, and had the fortune to afford the best. Apparently Trump had the good stuff ripped out when he bought and renovated the place. This is the same place that Trump valued at over $750 million when it was really worth less than $75 million. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar-a-Lago
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

9th June 2023, 05:14 PM	#24
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 95,220	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 I dunno, the descriptors of the documents mostly appear to be things that wouldn't embarrass a person. Nuclear capabilities etc? Who will be embarrassed? Macron has been mentioned for one.

9th June 2023, 05:20 PM	#25
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 95,220	Originally Posted by Checkmite Well, note the parenthetical I used. I don't think it's likely that Trump intended to give away or sell information to foreign governments, ... Even people who are not Trump supporters are reluctant to think the worst of him. Hard to believe even an evil person would have such a motive but Trump? Why not? We've seen with direct evidence he is that bad. No need to pull speculative punches. Originally Posted by Checkmite I think the fact that the documents were initially being stored in bathrooms and hallways and storage closets and wherever else they could fit, meant that early on Trump didn't particularly care what exactly he had or what was in them all that much. Once the word "subpoena" started floating around however, he became intensely interested in them, just because now they were a liability and he needed to know exactly which regions of his ass needed covering. I can't be the only person who was shocked to see he had that many boxes.

9th June 2023, 05:27 PM	#27
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26,358	Reports say that about 100 documents are classified. He has thousands more that are not classified. I think I read that on CNN.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

9th June 2023, 05:28 PM	#28
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 95,220	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle Indeed, Trump is a small little man trying to look big but too stupid to understand how to actually go about doing it. Really? Just because a lot of us see him as that whiny baby in diapers doesn't mean he hasn't successfully accomplished making himself look spectacularly bigly. Some in his cult even see him as akin to Jesus. Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle Though I think he did also intend to also prpfit from his theft. At the very core of his soul Trump is a criminal and a grifter. There's no doubt in my mind that he thought he could pull it off. Remember, with small little men like Trump they also want to convince others they're the biggest, the best, the strongest and the smartest in the room and the first person they convince is themselves. And with Trump he doesn't have the brains to have that nagging little doubt in his mind, what Pratchett called Second Thoughts, which pulls one back from the brink if you listen. I agree with the bolded part but I think he vacillates between his ego hitting rock bottom and rising above the clouds on a regular basis.

9th June 2023, 05:40 PM	#29
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 28,437	Originally Posted by William Parcher Reports say that about 100 documents are classified. He has thousands more that are not classified. I think I read that on CNN. Yeah, I think it was altogether a couple hundred classified documents; but in any case, those stacks and stacks of boxes are not full of classified docs, rather that the ones he had were scattered throughout them haphazardly. The exception is probably the boxes that were photographed being taken aboard Trump's private jet. It seems to be alleged that those specifically were classified docs that Trump had selected and was taking away from Mar-a-Lago in order to hide them from his own attorney's search.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

9th June 2023, 05:46 PM	#30
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 43,417	Originally Posted by GlennB Images of a huge number of boxes stashed at Mar-a-lago The Guardian No suggestion as to what's in them, mind Next to the toilet, no less. Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Not mutually exclusive motives. I think we can consider the overall purpose of him keeping any of these documents would have been his idea he could use them as an extension of the power he felt as POTUS: Bragging, revenge, and trading for gain of some kind., not necessarily in that order. Plus, it looks like he's a hoarder to some extent.

9th June 2023, 05:46 PM	#31
newyorkguy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NY Posts: 13,317	trump often referred to Mar-a-Lago as an "armed fort." trump even 'truthed': "What I did was RIGHT, Secured documents in a secured place!" *MAGA!!!*

9th June 2023, 05:54 PM	#32
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 21,271	So apparently the defense is going to be that he considers them "personal records" and therefore is allowed to keep them, based on precedent from Clinton. Of course, there are problems with that claim. 1) It's hard to argue that classified documents are his personal papers 2) The grand jury was presented with that defense and basically laughed it out of the room 3) the National Archives have created an FAQ explaining why it's all nonsense and that there are clear criteria for what constitutes personal papers 4) I thought they were planted by the fbi? No wait, he declassified them? Oh, it's that he is allowed to have them?
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

9th June 2023, 06:01 PM	#33
Crazy Chainsaw Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 7,345	Originally Posted by JayUtah 38 counts, devastating. Having formerly had access myself to classified documents and information, I really think this will not go well. If convicted, it's highly unlikely he will avoid a custodial sentence. Those Secret Service agents are not going to like sitting in a Cell with Trump, Mitch McConnell should have Impeached him.

9th June 2023, 06:16 PM	#34
newyorkguy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NY Posts: 13,317	Apparently trump's base is reaching the boiling point. MSN reports on a story that appeared on Raw Story: Quote: “We need to start killing these traitorous f---stains,” wrote one person on the the pro-Trump messaging board, The Donald. “It's not gonna stop until bodies start stacking up. We are not civilly represented anymore and they'll come for us next. Some of us, they already have," wrote another. Another person shared an article about Attorney General Merrick Garland's family, prompting one user to reply, “His children are fair game as far as I’m concerned.” MSN news link Congressman Andy Biggs agrees, as he tweeted. And on his official Congressional Twitter account no less! *MAGA!!!*

9th June 2023, 06:36 PM	#35
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 28,437	Of all the adventures outlined in the indictment, I think I've decided that my favorite is how Trump and his Top Men spent days going through the boxes culling and moving the classified documents in advance of the planned audit by the attorney, leaving only a couple dozen behind for the attorney to find, and then when the attorney finds them, Trump actually has the nerve to ask him if he found anything too problematic. "What's it look like, is it good or bad?"
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

9th June 2023, 06:46 PM	#36
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 32,527	This is just the beginning. I'm betting Trump is going to be indicted on many more charges. There is still January 6th. There is election interference. I bet Fani Willis will indict Trump in Georgia by the end of June.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

9th June 2023, 07:48 PM	#37
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,175	https://twitter.com/McJesse/status/1667296912943493120 (no I did not post this in the wrong thread, watch it til the end)
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,175