[Split Thread] Trump Document indictment (as opposed to other indictments) - Page 9

pgwenthold · 13th June 2023, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Or asks them to participate in a defense strategy that will likely result in their disbarment.

I would probably include that in my "won't listen to their advice" part, but yeah.

It's like how Sovereign Citizens can never find lawyers to represent them.

pgwenthold · 13th June 2023, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

he's about as smart as i thought. anyway, he did the same with michael cohen so this shouldn't be surprising either. just more of the same.

Did you hear his response to finding out that lawyers kept notes about meetings? He was completely flabbergasted that they would do that!

He says, Michael Cohen never took notes.....

(I'm serious - see Legal Eagle's new video)

Of course, where did that get Michael Cohen?

Segnosaur · 13th June 2023, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Lawyers have no problem defending someone who they know is guilty, even when they are guilty as hell of the most vile acts. As professionals, they know they have a job to do, and they do their best to do it well. Everyone deserves a fair trial.

What they won't defend is a client who won't listen to them, follow their advice, or pay them.

I think it probably depend on the lawyer.

I am sure some lawyers will gladly defend someone where a conviction is likely. But others probably do consider their win/loss record. And yet others may evaluate a combination of factors... the chance of winning combined with the difficulty of him as a client.

quadraginta · 13th June 2023, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Which is of course another issue with incarcerating Trump... they may need to increase oversight of the guards to prevent them from giving him any sort of special treatment.... slipping him a contraband cell phone, passing messages on to his minions outside the prison, etc.

As has been pointed out already, these are all fairly common issues in max security prisons.

I expect the average high ranking crime boss has plenty of money (possibly more than Trump) and access to plenty of minions, all of whom are bound to be far more competent than any of Trump's.

quadraginta · 13th June 2023, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Originally Posted by Thermal

Owing their position for their appointments and loyalty to the party's wishes can be analogized to owing money without too much of a stretch?

No, since they are appointed for life. The people who appointed them may *think* they are owed loyalty, but the SCOTUS judge does not need to actually "pay them back" to keep their position.

And it is amusing to imagine that a Repugnican would expect loyalty and a sense of obligation from other Repugnicans. SCOTUS Justices especially. They've got their cushy seat for life, and it isn't like a Repugnican Congress is going to kick any of them out just for doing what all the rest of them do every day. I.e., dodge their promises and obligations.

quadraginta · 13th June 2023, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Rockall, obviously.

It's what that bloke is doing just now: preliminary work for a single cell prison for someone proud of their Scottish ancestry...

How about his German ancestry?

Darat · 13th June 2023, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

As has been pointed out already, these are all fairly common issues in max security prisons.

I expect the average high ranking crime boss has plenty of money (possibly more than Trump) and access to plenty of minions, all of whom are bound to be far more competent than any of Trump's.

Sadly I find myself wondering how corrupt USA prisons are given the corruption in other branches of the law and justice system.

Segnosaur · 13th June 2023, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Quote:

Which is of course another issue with incarcerating Trump... they may need to increase oversight of the guards to prevent them from giving him any sort of special treatment.... slipping him a contraband cell phone, passing messages on to his minions outside the prison, etc.

As has been pointed out already, these are all fairly common issues in max security prisons.

I expect the average high ranking crime boss has plenty of money (possibly more than Trump) and access to plenty of minions, all of whom are bound to be far more competent than any of Trump's.

A mob boss may have competent minions, but he won't have as many as Stubby McBonespurs, nor are they as likely to be as dedicated. (Not to mention the incompetence of many of Trump's cult will add to the complexity.)

Plus, as I mentioned before, assigning Stubby McBonespurs to a supermax prison will probably result in a legal challenge... "He's not a violent offender... he shouldn't be housed with murders, etc."

Now I want to stress I am not defending Trump, nor am I suggesting he shouldn't be incarcerated. (I think based on the evidence we already know about, he can and should spend the rest of his life in prison.) I am just recognizing that housing him will be slightly different than other criminals. Nothing insurmountable, just... different.

quadraginta · 13th June 2023, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

There are no overwhelming logistical problems with keeping The Fat Orange Turd in prison. He's just an ordinary citizen, no different to a mob boss.

[snip]

Agreed.

Quote:

ADX Florence CO would be the ideal place to incarcerate The Fat Orange Turd.

ADX Florence was commissioned when the Federal Bureau of Prisons needed a unit designed specifically for the secure housing of those prisoners most capable of extreme violence toward staff or other inmates. As of June 2023, there are a total of 316 inmates housed. They are confined 23 hours per day in single cells with facilities made of poured, reinforced concrete to deter self-harm, and are under 24-hour supervision, carried out intensively with high staff–inmate ratios.

Its in the middle of nowhere, deterring all but the hardiest of his MAGA morons from going there to protest

Also agree. The perfect place to keep him.

Quote:

... and there is even a spare cell now as Ted Kaczynski (The Unabomber) snuffed it a couple of days ago!

[snip]

Um, about that last part.

Ted hasn't been there for a year and a half. They transferred him to a Federal prison hospital in Butner, NC. (About fifteen miles from where I'm typing this.)

Not exactly desolate.

quadraginta · 13th June 2023, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

A mob boss may have competent minions, but he won't have as many as Stubby McBonespurs, nor are they as likely to be as dedicated. (Not to mention the incompetence of many of Trump's cult will add to the complexity.)

[snip]

I have trouble seeing his MAGAchud supporters as 'minions'.

More like camp followers.

Walt Nauta. Now there's a minion you can respect.

TurkeysGhost · 13th June 2023, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Sadly I find myself wondering how corrupt USA prisons are given the corruption in other branches of the law and justice system.

Extremely, if not more so.

Segnosaur · 13th June 2023, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Quote:

A mob boss may have competent minions, but he won't have as many as Stubby McBonespurs, nor are they as likely to be as dedicated. (Not to mention the incompetence of many of Trump's cult will add to the complexity.)

I have trouble seeing his MAGAchud supporters as 'minions'.

More like camp followers.

Minions, cult members, hanger-ons, allies who support him (who are just trying to use him), I think Trump has them all. And he has more of each type than a mob boss might have. And the cult members are absolutely more dedicated to the fantasy of Trump than anyone will have to a mob boss.

If a mob boss says "I've been unfairly treated... storm the court house" I doubt he would get any cult followers to join in. With Trump there is a real danger of that happening. (Most MAGAchud are incompetent but they can still cause problems o'plenty.)

The Great Zaganza · 13th June 2023, 08:22 AM

They are Empty Husks, waiting for Trump to give their existence meaning.

acbytesla · 13th June 2023, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Tero

There are not really any commands to quote other than "Hang Mike pence" and the like. Everything was pretty much in the public rallies. There is no conspiracy to dig up. His mere suggestion did the trick.

Is Trump responsible for the actions of his hard core followers?

I'm not sure this is true. Definitely a more difficult prosecution.

I have absolutely no doubt there was a conspiracy that Trump engineered. But he did it in his way allowing and encouraging others to get their hands dirty. Trump is an expert in creating plausible deniability.

Trump should definitely go to prison for January 6th. More for this crime than any of the hundreds he certainly committed. But actually convicting him of it appears to be substantially more difficult.

TurkeysGhost · 13th June 2023, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Agreed.

Also agree. The perfect place to keep him.

Um, about that last part.

Ted hasn't been there for a year and a half. They transferred him to a Federal prison hospital in Butner, NC. (About fifteen miles from where I'm typing this.)

Not exactly desolate.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...FMC_Butner.jpg

hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders.

Hercules56 · 13th June 2023, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders.

He will be in a minimum security prison or under house arrest.

I'm willing to bet money.

Carrot Flower King · 13th June 2023, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

How about his German ancestry?

He has German ancestry as well?

I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you!

The man seems to only ever talk about his sainted mother from Stornoway, to the point that I had become convinced he was born as a result of parthenogenesis...

quadraginta · 13th June 2023, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders.

I never said or intimated that he would. I just agreed that that is a great place for him to be locked up.

I don't expect it, but it wouldn't bother me if he was.

'For his own protection', of course.

lobosrul5 · 13th June 2023, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

He will be in a minimum security prison or under house arrest.

I'm willing to bet money.

I'll bet you $10,000 that he won't ever see time inside an actual prison. House arrest is a real possibility though.

pgwenthold · 13th June 2023, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I think it probably depend on the lawyer.

I am sure some lawyers will gladly defend someone where a conviction is likely. But others probably do consider their win/loss record. And yet others may evaluate a combination of factors... the chance of winning combined with the difficulty of him as a client.

Sure, there are those lawyers who specialize in prosecution defense. Just as there are those who are prosecutors. And those who are contract lawyers. And those who only do Time Share accounting. Of course those wouldn't be representing Trump in defense of a criminal prosecution and has nothing to do with whether they think he is guilty or innocent.

Mike! · 13th June 2023, 09:11 AM

Meanwhile, down at the Miami Public Defenders office...

"Dude, you are not going to believe who I've been assigned to."

quadraginta · 13th June 2023, 09:12 AM

I wonder if the ones who demand to be paid in advance are passing the interview?

Tero · 13th June 2023, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

I'll bet you $10,000 that he won't ever see time inside an actual prison. House arrest is a real possibility though.

Also take away his passport. He will have to fly to foreign countries on AF1 and stay in the plane. Dignitaries will need to meet him in the plane.

Regnad Kcin · 13th June 2023, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

You missed the biggest negative - he was interviewing them. I have a good imagination but even I struggle to imagine those interviews. I am sure they were pleased to learn that he has the finest legal mind on the planet....

- Nobody knows tarts like I do.

- That’s, er, torts, Mr. President.

- Those too.

alfaniner · 13th June 2023, 10:36 AM

All this incessant coverage blowing everything else of the news cycle (these 24 hours or so), and there is actually nothing new to talk about. We won't even be able to see anything until after The FPDJT leaves the location.

acbytesla · 13th June 2023, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders.

What makes you think he's a nonviolent offender? Trump continues to threaten the DOJ and the attorneys.

The Great Zaganza · 13th June 2023, 11:01 AM

and he attacked a secret service agent on Jan 6th

shemp · 13th June 2023, 11:01 AM

I wasted a few minutes watching the motorcade from Doral to the courthouse. More reporters there than protesters. No violence, just some fat clown in a prison uniform costume ran out into the street and quickly got dragged away.

TurkeysGhost · 13th June 2023, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

What makes you think he's a nonviolent offender? Trump continues to threaten the DOJ and the attorneys.

On account that he's not, nor ever has, been charged with a violent crime.

lobosrul5 · 13th June 2023, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

What makes you think he's a nonviolent offender? Trump continues to threaten the DOJ and the attorneys.

The crime in which he is likely to be convicted for, is non-violent. That his incitement to riot on January 6 is indeed morally wrong, but almost certainly not illegal within the jurisdiction of the US has been discussed elsewhere.

Hell IMO Kari Lake should've been arrested and charged for her comments the other day, but legally she's not guilty.

Segnosaur · 13th June 2023, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

What makes you think he's a nonviolent offender? Trump continues to threaten the DOJ and the attorneys.

He's not necessarily engaging in violence himself.... he's directing others to do it.

Now, that is itself a serious issue that has to be addressed. But its not necessarily something that would require a supermax facility to stop.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

and he attacked a secret service agent on Jan 6th

He probably did. The problem is, they would probably have to gather some evidence over that... have the agent file a complaint, or have a witness come forward. Sticking him in supermax because "a witness heard second hand that he attacked someone" might result in a court challenge.

The Great Zaganza · 13th June 2023, 11:11 AM

better not to take any risks - a straightjacket would make the trial much saver for everyone.

Gulliver Foyle · 13th June 2023, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I am fascinated that the most damning evidence and testimony of the case comes from Trump's OWN lawyers!!!!

Only a buffoon would try to entangle his lawyers in criminal activity, thereby killing his attorney-client privilege.

Trump is not as smart as we thought.

You mean he's even thicker than a dead goldfish than I thought he was?

TurkeysGhost · 13th June 2023, 11:18 AM

Reports of the Miami crowd are pretty underwhelming, something like 20-30 MAGA freaks showing up to protest their leader being getting prosecuted. Cops and press well outnumbering the crowds.

Consistent with a real lack of energy in the post Jan6 MAGA space. Kinda seems like everyone took the lesson of all the die-hard Trump footsoldiers getting hoovered up by the feds to heart. Trump seems to have burned a lot of resources on that dud and these later showings are much more sedate.

Not to say that the reactionary right isn't still extremely active and belligerent, but they seem to have mostly focused on non-Trump issues like menacing outside drag shows or making thinly veiled threats at school board meetings, which are admittedly much softer targets that don't result in much police response.

Quote:

"One of the most striking things that stuck out about January 6 that we're not seeing now are logistical and tactical maps of buildings, facilities, areas, exit routes," said Benjamin Decker, CEO of Memetica, a threat intelligence group.

Decker said violent rhetoric on fringe platforms such as far-right Telegram channels, 4chan, Gab, Truth Social, Gettr and Patriots.win has spiked since Trump's indictment last week. He said it has been particularly concerning to see some of this language targeting Attorney General Merrick Garland and special counsel Jack Smith. But he said the appetite to participate in a mass, in-person event is muted.

"There is a lot of paranoia among Trump supporters about getting arrested," he said. "And the cost of arrest and potential jail time, that's still going to deter people ... who may be on the fence about being there to exercise their First Amendment rights or being there to participate in mob violence."

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/12/11817...iami-extremism

Edit: But to play devil's advocate, it's also 30 C and 80% humidity in Miami today, so standing around in the Florida sun hooting and hollering on asphalt probably isn't an attractive offer.

JoeMorgue · 13th June 2023, 11:31 AM

A toddler who has thrown themselves on the floor of the Target because you won't buy them a Turbo Man action figure and is kicking and screaming isn't deploying some well thought out 4 dimension chess thinking 8 steps ahead Machiavellian strategy. Still sucks to have to deal with one. There's still no quick and easy way out of that situation.

Most crime is stupid. For every master criminal doing a diamond vault heist there's a hundred dullards stealing pension checks. It's just weird to see that dynamic in high level government crime.

But if crime being stupid made it easy to counter/deal with/prosecute the world would be a much better place.

No, Trump is not "smart." That isn't making the situation we are in anymore easy to get out of.

TurkeysGhost · 13th June 2023, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

A toddler who has thrown themselves on the floor of the Target because you won't buy them a Turbo Man action figure and is kicking and screaming isn't deploying some well thought out 4 dimension chess thinking 8 steps ahead Machiavellian strategy. Still sucks to have to deal with one. There's still no quick and easy way out of that situation.

Most crime is stupid. For every master criminal doing a diamond vault heist there's a hundred dullards stealing pension checks. It's just weird to see that dynamic in high level government crime.

But if crime being stupid made it easy to counter/deal with/prosecute the world would be a much better place.

Not Trump is not "smart." That isn't making the situation we are in anymore easy to get out of.

Especially in this case, because there doesn't really seem to have been any good reason for him to take this crap with him. It's still not exactly clear what he intended to do with them. At least the Jan6 schemes were understandable in motive, as hare-brained as they were in execution.

Of all the crap he did in office, it's pretty funny that this 100% unforced error is probably the most likely thing to stick to him. I know we're still waiting for a possible indictment out of Georgia for trying to fudge the election results there, but the criminal case in this documents thing seems a much straighter and simpler path for prosecutors.

lobosrul5 · 13th June 2023, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Reports of the Miami crowd are pretty underwhelming, something like 20-30 MAGA freaks showing up to protest their leader being getting prosecuted. Cops and press well outnumbering the crowds.

Consistent with a real lack of energy in the post Jan6 MAGA space. Kinda seems like everyone took the lesson of all the die-hard Trump footsoldiers getting hoovered up by the feds to heart. Trump seems to have burned a lot of resources on that dud and these later showings are much more sedate.

Not to say that the reactionary right isn't still extremely active and belligerent, but they seem to have mostly focused on non-Trump issues like menacing outside drag shows or making thinly veiled threats at school board meetings, which are admittedly much softer targets that don't result in much police response.

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/12/11817...iami-extremism

Edit: But to play devil's advocate, it's also 30 C and 80% humidity in Miami today, so standing around in the Florida sun hooting and hollering on asphalt probably isn't an attractive offer.

Mouthing off on Parlor is fun, and easy. Traveling to Florida to stand around, probably not even see their grand poobah, storm a US Federal building and get shot to death is... hard, and probably not as much fun as one would think.

Hercules56 · 13th June 2023, 11:43 AM

Seems Trump's fake lawyer failed to argue how and why Trump is guilty of the charges against him. Just yelled about unfair treatment.

TurkeysGhost · 13th June 2023, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Mouthing off on Parlor is fun, and easy. Traveling to Florida to stand around, probably not even see their grand poobah, storm a US Federal building and get shot to death is... hard, and probably not as much fun as one would think.

Sure, but prior to Jan6 there was a fair number of people willing to risk it all for their God-King. A lot of them got locked up as a direct result of attending, and those that didn't for whatever reason probably have had a bit of reassessment on how far exactly they are willing to go.

I don't think it gets stressed enough that these little mini riots were happening in a lot of places prior to Jan 6, and in many cases local cops were turning a blind eye towards, if not outright collaborating with, these fascist street brawlers. Jan 6 actually resulting in intense police attention (admittedly only after the fact) was very much not the norm for these people who had not unreasonably come to expect total impunity for their political violence.

At least when the feds are involved, the CHUDs have learned painfully to mind their manners.

quadraginta · 13th June 2023, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

On account that he's not, nor ever has, been charged with a violent crime.

There are a lot of things which Trump (and many others) have done which they have never been charged with.

That only means that there wasn't enough admissible evidence for an indictment, and they got away with it.

This is easier the more money you have.

As they say, "... all the justice you can afford."

13th June 2023, 07:24 AM	#321
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 21,271	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Or asks them to participate in a defense strategy that will likely result in their disbarment. I would probably include that in my "won't listen to their advice" part, but yeah. It's like how Sovereign Citizens can never find lawyers to represent them.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

13th June 2023, 07:25 AM	#322
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 21,271	Originally Posted by dirtywick he's about as smart as i thought. anyway, he did the same with michael cohen so this shouldn't be surprising either. just more of the same. Did you hear his response to finding out that lawyers kept notes about meetings? He was completely flabbergasted that they would do that! He says, Michael Cohen never took notes..... (I'm serious - see Legal Eagle's new video) Of course, where did that get Michael Cohen?
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

13th June 2023, 07:43 AM	#323
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 20,313	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Lawyers have no problem defending someone who they know is guilty, even when they are guilty as hell of the most vile acts. As professionals, they know they have a job to do, and they do their best to do it well. Everyone deserves a fair trial. What they won't defend is a client who won't listen to them, follow their advice, or pay them. I think it probably depend on the lawyer. I am sure some lawyers will gladly defend someone where a conviction is likely. But others probably do consider their win/loss record. And yet others may evaluate a combination of factors... the chance of winning combined with the difficulty of him as a client.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

13th June 2023, 07:48 AM	#324
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 27,279	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Which is of course another issue with incarcerating Trump... they may need to increase oversight of the guards to prevent them from giving him any sort of special treatment.... slipping him a contraband cell phone, passing messages on to his minions outside the prison, etc. As has been pointed out already, these are all fairly common issues in max security prisons. I expect the average high ranking crime boss has plenty of money (possibly more than Trump) and access to plenty of minions, all of whom are bound to be far more competent than any of Trump's.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

13th June 2023, 07:55 AM	#325
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 27,279	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Originally Posted by Thermal Owing their position for their appointments and loyalty to the party's wishes can be analogized to owing money without too much of a stretch? No, since they are appointed for life. The people who appointed them may think they are owed loyalty, but the SCOTUS judge does not need to actually "pay them back" to keep their position. And it is amusing to imagine that a Repugnican would expect loyalty and a sense of obligation from other Repugnicans. SCOTUS Justices especially. They've got their cushy seat for life, and it isn't like a Repugnican Congress is going to kick any of them out just for doing what all the rest of them do every day. I.e., dodge their promises and obligations.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

13th June 2023, 07:56 AM	#326
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 27,279	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King Rockall, obviously. It's what that bloke is doing just now: preliminary work for a single cell prison for someone proud of their Scottish ancestry... How about his German ancestry?
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

13th June 2023, 07:56 AM	#327
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 111,239	Originally Posted by quadraginta As has been pointed out already, these are all fairly common issues in max security prisons. I expect the average high ranking crime boss has plenty of money (possibly more than Trump) and access to plenty of minions, all of whom are bound to be far more competent than any of Trump's. Sadly I find myself wondering how corrupt USA prisons are given the corruption in other branches of the law and justice system.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

13th June 2023, 08:02 AM	#328
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 20,313	Originally Posted by quadraginta Quote: Which is of course another issue with incarcerating Trump... they may need to increase oversight of the guards to prevent them from giving him any sort of special treatment.... slipping him a contraband cell phone, passing messages on to his minions outside the prison, etc. As has been pointed out already, these are all fairly common issues in max security prisons. I expect the average high ranking crime boss has plenty of money (possibly more than Trump) and access to plenty of minions, all of whom are bound to be far more competent than any of Trump's. A mob boss may have competent minions, but he won't have as many as Stubby McBonespurs, nor are they as likely to be as dedicated. (Not to mention the incompetence of many of Trump's cult will add to the complexity.) Plus, as I mentioned before, assigning Stubby McBonespurs to a supermax prison will probably result in a legal challenge... "He's not a violent offender... he shouldn't be housed with murders, etc." Now I want to stress I am not defending Trump, nor am I suggesting he shouldn't be incarcerated. (I think based on the evidence we already know about, he can and should spend the rest of his life in prison.) I am just recognizing that housing him will be slightly different than other criminals. Nothing insurmountable, just... different.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

13th June 2023, 08:04 AM	#329
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 27,279	Originally Posted by smartcooky There are no overwhelming logistical problems with keeping The Fat Orange Turd in prison. He's just an ordinary citizen, no different to a mob boss. [snip] Agreed. Quote: ADX Florence CO would be the ideal place to incarcerate The Fat Orange Turd. ADX Florence was commissioned when the Federal Bureau of Prisons needed a unit designed specifically for the secure housing of those prisoners most capable of extreme violence toward staff or other inmates. As of June 2023, there are a total of 316 inmates housed. They are confined 23 hours per day in single cells with facilities made of poured, reinforced concrete to deter self-harm, and are under 24-hour supervision, carried out intensively with high staff–inmate ratios. Its in the middle of nowhere, deterring all but the hardiest of his MAGA morons from going there to protest Also agree. The perfect place to keep him. Quote: ... and there is even a spare cell now as Ted Kaczynski (The Unabomber) snuffed it a couple of days ago! [snip] Um, about that last part. Ted hasn't been there for a year and a half. They transferred him to a Federal prison hospital in Butner, NC. (About fifteen miles from where I'm typing this.) Not exactly desolate.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

13th June 2023, 08:07 AM	#330
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 27,279	Originally Posted by Segnosaur A mob boss may have competent minions, but he won't have as many as Stubby McBonespurs, nor are they as likely to be as dedicated. (Not to mention the incompetence of many of Trump's cult will add to the complexity.) [snip] I have trouble seeing his MAGAchud supporters as 'minions'. More like camp followers. Walt Nauta. Now there's a minion you can respect.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

13th June 2023, 08:17 AM	#331
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 34,736	Originally Posted by Darat Sadly I find myself wondering how corrupt USA prisons are given the corruption in other branches of the law and justice system. Extremely, if not more so.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

13th June 2023, 08:19 AM	#332
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 20,313	Originally Posted by quadraginta Quote: A mob boss may have competent minions, but he won't have as many as Stubby McBonespurs, nor are they as likely to be as dedicated. (Not to mention the incompetence of many of Trump's cult will add to the complexity.) I have trouble seeing his MAGAchud supporters as 'minions'. More like camp followers. Minions, cult members, hanger-ons, allies who support him (who are just trying to use him), I think Trump has them all. And he has more of each type than a mob boss might have. And the cult members are absolutely more dedicated to the fantasy of Trump than anyone will have to a mob boss. If a mob boss says "I've been unfairly treated... storm the court house" I doubt he would get any cult followers to join in. With Trump there is a real danger of that happening. (Most MAGAchud are incompetent but they can still cause problems o'plenty.)
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

13th June 2023, 08:22 AM	#333
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 20,803	They are Empty Husks, waiting for Trump to give their existence meaning.
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

13th June 2023, 08:27 AM	#334
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 32,527	Originally Posted by Tero There are not really any commands to quote other than "Hang Mike pence" and the like. Everything was pretty much in the public rallies. There is no conspiracy to dig up. His mere suggestion did the trick. Is Trump responsible for the actions of his hard core followers? I'm not sure this is true. Definitely a more difficult prosecution. I have absolutely no doubt there was a conspiracy that Trump engineered. But he did it in his way allowing and encouraging others to get their hands dirty. Trump is an expert in creating plausible deniability. Trump should definitely go to prison for January 6th. More for this crime than any of the hundreds he certainly committed. But actually convicting him of it appears to be substantially more difficult.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

13th June 2023, 08:30 AM	#335
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 34,736	Originally Posted by quadraginta Agreed. Also agree. The perfect place to keep him. Um, about that last part. Ted hasn't been there for a year and a half. They transferred him to a Federal prison hospital in Butner, NC. (About fifteen miles from where I'm typing this.) Not exactly desolate. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...FMC_Butner.jpg hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

13th June 2023, 08:33 AM	#336
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders. He will be in a minimum security prison or under house arrest. I'm willing to bet money.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

13th June 2023, 08:39 AM	#337
Carrot Flower King Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 4,069	Originally Posted by quadraginta How about his German ancestry? He has German ancestry as well? I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you! The man seems to only ever talk about his sainted mother from Stornoway, to the point that I had become convinced he was born as a result of parthenogenesis...

13th June 2023, 08:41 AM	#338
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 27,279	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders. I never said or intimated that he would. I just agreed that that is a great place for him to be locked up. I don't expect it, but it wouldn't bother me if he was. 'For his own protection', of course.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

13th June 2023, 08:50 AM	#339
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,175	Originally Posted by Hercules56 He will be in a minimum security prison or under house arrest. I'm willing to bet money. I'll bet you $10,000 that he won't ever see time inside an actual prison. House arrest is a real possibility though.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,175

13th June 2023, 09:10 AM	#340
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 21,271	Originally Posted by Segnosaur I think it probably depend on the lawyer. I am sure some lawyers will gladly defend someone where a conviction is likely. But others probably do consider their win/loss record. And yet others may evaluate a combination of factors... the chance of winning combined with the difficulty of him as a client. Sure, there are those lawyers who specialize in prosecution defense. Just as there are those who are prosecutors. And those who are contract lawyers. And those who only do Time Share accounting. Of course those wouldn't be representing Trump in defense of a criminal prosecution and has nothing to do with whether they think he is guilty or innocent.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

13th June 2023, 09:11 AM	#341
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 51,598	Meanwhile, down at the Miami Public Defenders office... "Dude, you are not going to believe who I've been assigned to."
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

13th June 2023, 09:12 AM	#342
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 27,279	I wonder if the ones who demand to be paid in advance are passing the interview?
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

13th June 2023, 09:36 AM	#343
Tero Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North American prairie Posts: 3,188	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 I'll bet you $10,000 that he won't ever see time inside an actual prison. House arrest is a real possibility though. Also take away his passport. He will have to fly to foreign countries on AF1 and stay in the plane. Dignitaries will need to meet him in the plane.
	__________________ Dominus vo-bisque'em Et cum spear a tu-tu, oh! Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/ Parody: http://karireport.blogspot.com/ Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/

13th June 2023, 09:50 AM	#344
Regnad Kcin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The old Same place Posts: 10,961	Originally Posted by Darat You missed the biggest negative - he was interviewing them. I have a good imagination but even I struggle to imagine those interviews. I am sure they were pleased to learn that he has the finest legal mind on the planet.... - Nobody knows tarts like I do. - That’s, er, torts, Mr. President. - Those too.
	__________________ My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.

13th June 2023, 10:36 AM	#345
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 28,475	All this incessant coverage blowing everything else of the news cycle (these 24 hours or so), and there is actually nothing new to talk about. We won't even be able to see anything until after The FPDJT leaves the location.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

13th June 2023, 10:55 AM	#346
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 32,527	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost hate to burst your bubble, but there's zero reason to believe Trump would be doing any time in a high security facility. He'd be off in Club Fed with all the other nonviolent offenders. What makes you think he's a nonviolent offender? Trump continues to threaten the DOJ and the attorneys.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

13th June 2023, 11:01 AM	#347
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 20,803	and he attacked a secret service agent on Jan 6th
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

13th June 2023, 11:01 AM	#348
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Where the Old Man of the Mountain used to stand Posts: 56,756	I wasted a few minutes watching the motorcade from Doral to the courthouse. More reporters there than protesters. No violence, just some fat clown in a prison uniform costume ran out into the street and quickly got dragged away.
	__________________ "An empty void is growing between his ears. Distant screams can be heard echoing in the darkness." -- JihadJane UP YOURS!

13th June 2023, 11:02 AM	#349
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 34,736	Originally Posted by acbytesla What makes you think he's a nonviolent offender? Trump continues to threaten the DOJ and the attorneys. On account that he's not, nor ever has, been charged with a violent crime.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

13th June 2023, 11:03 AM	#350
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,175	Originally Posted by acbytesla What makes you think he's a nonviolent offender? Trump continues to threaten the DOJ and the attorneys. The crime in which he is likely to be convicted for, is non-violent. That his incitement to riot on January 6 is indeed morally wrong, but almost certainly not illegal within the jurisdiction of the US has been discussed elsewhere. Hell IMO Kari Lake should've been arrested and charged for her comments the other day, but legally she's not guilty.
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,175

13th June 2023, 11:09 AM	#351
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 20,313	Originally Posted by acbytesla What makes you think he's a nonviolent offender? Trump continues to threaten the DOJ and the attorneys. He's not necessarily engaging in violence himself.... he's directing others to do it. Now, that is itself a serious issue that has to be addressed. But its not necessarily something that would require a supermax facility to stop. Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza and he attacked a secret service agent on Jan 6th He probably did. The problem is, they would probably have to gather some evidence over that... have the agent file a complaint, or have a witness come forward. Sticking him in supermax because "a witness heard second hand that he attacked someone" might result in a court challenge.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

13th June 2023, 11:11 AM	#352
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 20,803	better not to take any risks - a straightjacket would make the trial much saver for everyone.
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

13th June 2023, 11:15 AM	#353
Gulliver Foyle Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 2,503	Originally Posted by Hercules56 I am fascinated that the most damning evidence and testimony of the case comes from Trump's OWN lawyers!!!! Only a buffoon would try to entangle his lawyers in criminal activity, thereby killing his attorney-client privilege. Trump is not as smart as we thought. You mean he's even thicker than a dead goldfish than I thought he was?
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

13th June 2023, 11:18 AM	#354
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 34,736	Reports of the Miami crowd are pretty underwhelming, something like 20-30 MAGA freaks showing up to protest their leader being getting prosecuted. Cops and press well outnumbering the crowds. Consistent with a real lack of energy in the post Jan6 MAGA space. Kinda seems like everyone took the lesson of all the die-hard Trump footsoldiers getting hoovered up by the feds to heart. Trump seems to have burned a lot of resources on that dud and these later showings are much more sedate. Not to say that the reactionary right isn't still extremely active and belligerent, but they seem to have mostly focused on non-Trump issues like menacing outside drag shows or making thinly veiled threats at school board meetings, which are admittedly much softer targets that don't result in much police response. Quote: "One of the most striking things that stuck out about January 6 that we're not seeing now are logistical and tactical maps of buildings, facilities, areas, exit routes," said Benjamin Decker, CEO of Memetica, a threat intelligence group. Decker said violent rhetoric on fringe platforms such as far-right Telegram channels, 4chan, Gab, Truth Social, Gettr and Patriots.win has spiked since Trump's indictment last week. He said it has been particularly concerning to see some of this language targeting Attorney General Merrick Garland and special counsel Jack Smith. But he said the appetite to participate in a mass, in-person event is muted. "There is a lot of paranoia among Trump supporters about getting arrested," he said. "And the cost of arrest and potential jail time, that's still going to deter people ... who may be on the fence about being there to exercise their First Amendment rights or being there to participate in mob violence." https://www.npr.org/2023/06/12/11817...iami-extremism Edit: But to play devil's advocate, it's also 30 C and 80% humidity in Miami today, so standing around in the Florida sun hooting and hollering on asphalt probably isn't an attractive offer.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 13th June 2023 at 11:23 AM.

13th June 2023, 11:31 AM	#355
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 45,413	A toddler who has thrown themselves on the floor of the Target because you won't buy them a Turbo Man action figure and is kicking and screaming isn't deploying some well thought out 4 dimension chess thinking 8 steps ahead Machiavellian strategy. Still sucks to have to deal with one. There's still no quick and easy way out of that situation. Most crime is stupid. For every master criminal doing a diamond vault heist there's a hundred dullards stealing pension checks. It's just weird to see that dynamic in high level government crime. But if crime being stupid made it easy to counter/deal with/prosecute the world would be a much better place. No, Trump is not "smart." That isn't making the situation we are in anymore easy to get out of.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. Last edited by JoeMorgue; 13th June 2023 at 11:40 AM.