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Old 12th July 2023, 07:57 PM   #361
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The only concession on sex segregation that I'd agree to is the concession that transgender identity does not create an entitlement to transcend sex segregation. No matter how much HRT is involved.
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Old 12th July 2023, 10:09 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
i still don't understand the marriage thing at all. What's that about?
IIRC backstory regarding a case that went to EHRC before the UK allowed same-sex marriage.

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Old 12th July 2023, 11:55 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
Does it indicate that?



Would the UK even recognize such a diagnosis from an overseas clinic?
Yes it does.
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Old 13th July 2023, 01:32 AM   #364
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TG, you couldn´t provide a single transfobic quote by Rowling. Yet you keep calling her transfobic. It would be wise to rectify.
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Old 13th July 2023, 03:52 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
TG, you couldn´t provide a single transfobic quote by Rowling. Yet you keep calling her transfobic. It would be wise to rectify.
I’ve given up on this question. He can’t because there are no such quotes. The best he can come up with is “others have said so”. How very skeptical.
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Old 13th July 2023, 04:12 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
This is worth following up on. Are you even aware of the context of the article that Rowling went on reactionary whine fest about?

It was an article literally about menstrual issues, hence the "people who menstruate" language. This wasn't some wokeness run amok example, it was literally an article about the practical realities of dealing with menstruation, hence the specific, if a bit unwieldly, language.

The same article uses "women" and "girls" several times and frames menstruation as a women's issue.



I'm guessing Rowling saw this headline and nothing more and let her TERF brain rot fill in the rest.

What exactly is so objectionable about the actual text of the article? It's a short article, feel free to find the offending lines. Here's a sample that seems representative, but don't feel like you can't pluck your own if you prefer:



https://www.devex.com/news/sponsored...v0aEeR.twitter



It's bog standard feminism, focusing on how X current event is impacting women and girls. Notably trans men are not even mentioned explicitly, at best thrown a bone obliquely.

interesting example where TERF brain ends in women self-sabotaging. Rowling's brain is so rotted with TERFism that she's doing friendly fire on people advocating for women's health.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/statu...509313?lang=en
I guess nobody is going to respond to this.


Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I’ve given up on this question. He can’t because there are no such quotes. The best he can come up with is “others have said so”. How very skeptical.
The above response was specifically a response to you, so it's a bit rich to complain that I refuse to engage substantively here. Maybe you just missed it, feel free to take a crack at it now.
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Old 13th July 2023, 04:33 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What is the proposed compromise from folks like Lia Thomas? So far as I can tell they are more than happy to displace female athletes from the podiums and record books which were once reserved to them.
Lia Thomas did in fact meet eligibility requirements, which included minimum HRT time. After she transitioned she did not immediately enter the women's league, she continued to swim in the men's until she met the minimum HRT time to qualify. You are citing an example in which compromise terms have been met. Perhaps they will change in time under more review, but it's bad faith to pretend that these existing terms aren't a compromise.
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Old 13th July 2023, 04:38 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
I guess nobody is going to respond to this.
Perhaps its such a contemptible load of bull-****, its not deserving of a reply. What you assert without evidence, we can dismiss without response.

I would remind you that you have accused Rowling of being transphobic, and you have been asked several times for actual, transphobic quotes from/by her. Your response thus far has been to dodge, weave, evade, obfuscate and move the goalposts. Quoting and linking to articles in which OTHER PEOPLE make such criticisms IS NOT a valid answer to the question YOU have been asked.

I know why you haven't given these quotes... and so does everyone else reading. The reason is that such quotes do not exist, because Rowling is not what you claim she is.
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Old 13th July 2023, 04:40 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
Lia Thomas did in fact meet eligibility requirements, which included minimum HRT time. After she transitioned she did not immediately enter the women's league, she continued to swim in the men's until she met the minimum HRT time to qualify. You are citing an example in which compromise terms have been met. Perhaps they will change in time under more review, but it's bad faith to pretend that these existing terms aren't a compromise.
Strikes me as bad faith to pretend that minimum HRT times are a compromise suggested by trans activists rather than a condition imposed by sports bodies like the IOC, but maybe you are correct. Perhaps civil rights groups like the ACLU and Stonewall changed their stance on whether folks like Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood deserve their places on the (formerly female) podium regardless of hormone levels, and we simply missed the announcement. Can you please point out when this happened?
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Old 13th July 2023, 04:42 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Strikes me as bad faith to pretend that minimum HRT times are a compromise suggested by trans activists rather than a condition imposed by sports bodies like the IOC, but maybe you are correct. Perhaps civil rights groups like the ACLU and Stonewall changed their stance on whether folks like Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood deserve their places on the (formerly female) podium regardless of hormone levels, and we simply missed the announcement. Can you please point out when this happened?
Trans people are not a hivemind.

You realize you have moved the goalposts, right? You asked originally to show where trans athletes are willing to compromise, now that I've shown the obvious examples of these compromises, you decide it's only adequate if certain trans right groups themselves were the ones to suggest the terms.
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Old 13th July 2023, 04:43 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Perhaps its such a contemptible load of bull-****, its not deserving of a reply. What you assert without evidence, we can dismiss without response.

I would remind you that you have accused Rowling of being transphobic, and you have been asked several times for actual, transphobic quotes from/by her. Your response thus far has been to dodge, weave, evade, obfuscate and move the goalposts. Quoting and linking to articles in which OTHER PEOPLE make such criticisms IS NOT a valid answer to the question YOU have been asked.

I know why you haven't given these quotes... and so does everyone else reading. The reason is that such quotes do not exist, because Rowling is not what you claim she is.
I linked the article. What the hell are you even talking about?

This game of "show me the evidence that I refuse to look at" is getting tiresome. I know this thread is a waste of time, but come on.
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Old 13th July 2023, 04:48 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yes it does.
Then I'm guessing it's a wait time issue. A diagnosis from overseas isn't much good if trying to get further treatment by the NHS means years long waits. Much more practical to just hop a flight to Europe (for those with the means to do so, of course).
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Old 13th July 2023, 04:58 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
IIRC backstory regarding a case that went to EHRC before the UK allowed same-sex marriage.
I see, thanks. So I'm guessing these second set of terms don't really apply that often. If being married over 10 years ago (and counting) is a requirement, obviously that becomes less and less applicable as time goes on.

For anyone who isn't of a certain age, these second set of criteria just don't apply.
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Old 13th July 2023, 05:04 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
I linked the article. What the hell are you even talking about?
You linked an article that does not say what you claim it does!! If you think it does, please quote the relevant part(s) YOU think support your claim, because I am not seeing anything there that fits the bill!!

This article you linked...

https://www.devex.com/news/sponsored...v0aEeR.twitter

doesn't even mention Rowling at all.

Nothing in this Twitter post can even be remotely construed as transphobic

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/statu...509313?lang=en

You were asked for actual quotes from Rowling herself that would SHOW that she is transphobic... you failed to do so. An article that has OPINIONS of others does not answer the question you were asked.

Now, are you going to answer the bloody question or not?
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Old 13th July 2023, 05:07 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You linked an article that does not say what you claim it does!! If you think it does, please quote the relevant part(s) YOU think support your claim, because I am not seeing anything there that fits the bill!!

You were asked for actual quotes from Rowling herself that would SHOW that she his transphobic... you failed to do so. An article that has OPINIONS of others does not answer the question you were asked.

Now, are you going to answer the bloody question or not?
This is now my third time posting this without response:

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
This is worth following up on. Are you even aware of the context of the article that Rowling went on reactionary whine fest about?

It was an article literally about menstrual issues, hence the "people who menstruate" language. This wasn't some wokeness run amok example, it was literally an article about the practical realities of dealing with menstruation, hence the specific, if a bit unwieldly, language.

The same article uses "women" and "girls" several times and frames menstruation as a women's issue.



I'm guessing Rowling saw this headline and nothing more and let her TERF brain rot fill in the rest.

What exactly is so objectionable about the actual text of the article? It's a short article, feel free to find the offending lines. Here's a sample that seems representative, but don't feel like you can't pluck your own if you prefer:



https://www.devex.com/news/sponsored...v0aEeR.twitter



It's bog standard feminism, focusing on how X current event is impacting women and girls. Notably trans men are not even mentioned explicitly, at best thrown a bone obliquely.

interesting example where TERF brain ends in women self-sabotaging. Rowling's brain is so rotted with TERFism that she's doing friendly fire on people advocating for women's health.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/statu...509313?lang=en
Have anything to say about this, or are you going to keep your head up your own ass and complain you can't see anything?
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Old 13th July 2023, 05:14 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
This is now my third time posting this without response:
There is nothing to respond to... there is no "there" there!

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
Have anything to say about this, or are you going to keep your head up your own ass and complain you can't see anything?
Say about what? There isn't anything to say?

NO ONE here sees what you claim to see.

Please quote THE EXACT part that makes Rowling a transphobe, or are you going to keep your head up your own ass and complain we can't see what you are imagining.
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Old 13th July 2023, 05:16 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There is nothing to respond to... there is no "there" there!



Say about what? There isn't anything to say?

NO_ONE here sees what you claim to see.

Please quote THE EXACT part that makes Rowling a transphobe, or are you going to keep your head up your own ass and complain we can't see what you are imagining.
Interesting version of calvinball where you get to both be a player and the referee. I suppose we're all total dictators of our own minds and can decide what we find convincing, though it would be more courteous to just say "I disagree with that opinion" than to pretend that everyone who isn't you is simply insane.

We've reached an impasse, this is no further point to this exchange. Thanks for stopping by
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Old 13th July 2023, 05:20 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
Interesting version of calvinball where you get to both be a player and the referee. I suppose we're all total dictators of our own minds and can decide what we find convincing, though it would be more courteous to just say "I disagree with that opinion" than to pretend that everyone who isn't you is simply insane.

We've reached an impasse, this is no further point to this exchange. Thanks for stopping by
So you are not going to back up your claim with the evidence and quotes you were asked for.

Exactly as expected!
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Old 13th July 2023, 05:29 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So you are not going to back up your claim with the evidence and quotes you were asked for.

Exactly as expected!
My response literally has Rowling's tweet and the supposed offending article linked in it. That's nothing more to cite, that's the whole enchilada.
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Old 13th July 2023, 05:52 AM   #380
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If it's vitally important that the quote appears here without clicking a link, in order to discuss it, here it is:

Originally Posted by JK Rowling
‘People who menstruate.’ I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?
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Old 13th July 2023, 06:00 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
My response literally has Rowling's tweet and the supposed offending article linked in it. That's nothing more to cite, that's the whole enchilada.

It’s hardly an enchilada - I believe the correct term is nothing burger.
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Old 13th July 2023, 06:01 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
It’s hardly an enchilada - I believe the correct term is nothing burger.
Nothing Burger, ironically, a term coined by a person who was, in fact, quite accurately being criticized.
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Old 13th July 2023, 06:08 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
You realize you have moved the goalposts, right? You asked originally to show where trans athletes are willing to compromise, now that I've shown the obvious examples of these compromises, you decide it's only adequate if certain trans right groups themselves were the ones to suggest the terms.
What I originally said was "If the trans rights folks don't want any compromises whatsoever—not even concessions to women's sports—then I'm content to side with the traditionalists until they do."

The highlighted phrase refers to activists pushing for trans rights, which includes some trans athletes pushing to be treated according to their acquired sex rather than birth sex.

Let's look at what you're calling "willing to compromise" here. Thomas retains most of the physical advantages of male puberty, including height, weight, muscle mass, heart & and lung capacity, etc. but takes a slight hit to performance from CSH. She surged to league champion and multiple record holder from way back in the middle of the pack as a male competitor.

Testosterone suppression is indeed compromise of sorts, but it still allows natal males to dominate female leagues and it not what I'd consider a "concession to women's sports," in the sense I was talking about earlier.

A far more reasonable compromise would be an open class of competition which allows anyone of any gender to compete, regardless of where they are on their transition journey.

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Old 13th July 2023, 06:10 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What I originally said was "If the trans rights folks don't want any compromises whatsoever—not even concessions to women's sports—then I'm content to side with the traditionalists until they do."

The highlighted phrase refers to activists pushing for trans rights, which includes some trans athletes pushing to be treated according to their acquired sex rather than birth sex.

Let's look at what you're calling "willing to compromise" here. Thomas retains most of the physical advantages of male puberty, including height, weight, muscle mass, heart & and lung capacity, etc. but takes a slight hit to performance from CSH. She surged to league champion and multiple record holder from way back in the middle of the pack as a male competitor.

Testosterone suppression is indeed compromise of sorts, but it still allows natal males to dominate female leagues and it not what I'd consider a "concession to women's sports," in the sense I was talking about earlier.

A far more reasonable compromise would be an open class of competition which allows anyone of any gender to compete, regardless of where they are on their transition journey.

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"I don't like this compromise and prefer another" is a far different statement than "these trans athletes refuse to compromise"

Thanks for admitting you mischaracterized the the present state of the situation, no matter how begrudgingly.
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Old 13th July 2023, 06:16 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
Trans people are not a hivemind.
Quite true.

Trans activists, on the other hand, operate as if they are.
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Old 13th July 2023, 06:20 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quite true.

Trans activists, on the other hand, operate as if they are.
Fanning myself on the fainting couch because I just found out how collective action and political activism works.
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Old 13th July 2023, 06:23 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
Fanning myself on the fainting couch because I just found out how collective action and political activism works.
A rousing defense of groupthink and mindless adherence to dogma... who would have ever expected it?
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Old 13th July 2023, 06:25 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
A rousing defense of groupthink and mindless adherence to dogma... who would have ever expected it?
Good luck trying to effect change by individually reasoning with the state and deploying Facts and Logic.
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Old 13th July 2023, 06:48 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
If it's vitally important that the quote appears here without clicking a link, in order to discuss it, here it is:
So tell me, do you think this is a bigoted, transphobic comment? Because this is all JKR critics can come up with.
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Old 13th July 2023, 06:49 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
So tell me, do you think this is a bigoted, transphobic comment? Because this is all JKR critics can come up with.
It certainly belies a certain reflexive hostility towards trans people considering the text of the article makes little to no mention of trans people, and the subject matter explains why "people who menstruate" is an appropriate phrase.
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Old 13th July 2023, 06:53 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
It certainly belies a certain reflexive hostility towards trans people considering the text of the article makes little to no mention of trans people, and the subject matter explains why "people who menstruate" is an appropriate phrase.
You have to be ******* joking.

Please argue in good faith. I know it’s too much to ask though.
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Old 13th July 2023, 06:55 AM   #392
TurkeysGhost
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You have to be ******* joking.

Please argue in good faith. I know it’s too much to ask though.
More snark, no substance.
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Old 13th July 2023, 07:02 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
If it's vitally important that the quote appears here without clicking a link, in order to discuss it, here it is:
"People who menstruate" is already misogynistic. It dismisses the facts and experiences of womanhood, and tries to replace them with an ersatz fantasy of womanhood. It's the coinage of men who think that wearing a dress makes them a woman, that consorting with women makes them a woman, that imagining they're a woman makes them a woman.

These are men who will never go through puberty as a woman. They will never experience menses or menopause. They will never experience the weight of discrimination that society places on women. So they have to dismiss these things, and many other things, as irrelevant to womanhood. "Menstruating isn't womanhood," they say. "You're no more of a woman than I am."

It's misogyny. Pushing back against this is not transphobia. There is no irrational fear of transwomen in such dissent. Rather, such dissent is firmly rooted in a rational fear of trans-rights activists, who demonstrably seek to erase true womanhood so they can replace it with (yet another) male fantasy.

All the irrationality in this debate springs from the pro-trans side. In citing this statement by Rowling as "transphobic", you yourself are sliding into that irrational hole.
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Old 13th July 2023, 07:04 AM   #394
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Again what are we even doing? On like so many levels what are we even doing?

The only argument is one of definition and categorization. Of course the only things anyone can point at are people using the "wrong" (from their point of view) definition. What other argument can anyone even be expected to put on the table?

There's no there ANYWHERE in this debate.
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Old 13th July 2023, 07:06 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"People who menstruate" is already misogynistic. It dismisses the facts and experiences of womanhood, and tries to replace them with an ersatz fantasy of womanhood. It's the coinage of men who think that wearing a dress makes them a woman, that consorting with women makes them a woman, that imagining they're a woman makes them a woman.

These are men who will never go through puberty as a woman. They will never experience menses or menopause. They will never experience the weight of discrimination that society places on women. So they have to dismiss these things, and many other things, as irrelevant to womanhood. "Menstruating isn't womanhood," they say. "You're no more of a woman than I am."

It's misogyny. Pushing back against this is not transphobia. There is no irrational fear of transwomen in such dissent. Rather, such dissent is firmly rooted in a rational fear of trans-rights activists, who demonstrably seek to erase true womanhood so they can replace it with (yet another) male fantasy.

All the irrationality in this debate springs from the pro-trans side. In citing this statement by Rowling as "transphobic", you yourself are sliding into that irrational hole.
You didn't read the article, did you?

That's kinda the whole thrust of the point, is that Rowling (and others like her) see "people who menstruate" in a headline and assume it's some woman-erasing plot by trans activists, instead of, ya know, an article specifically about menstrual health that does not even mention the existence of trans people.

On a hair trigger to go on their anti-trans rants, even when it's a non-sequitur.
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Old 13th July 2023, 07:19 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
Good luck trying to effect change by individually reasoning with the state and deploying Facts and Logic.
We aren't reasoning with the state here. We're reasoning with each other. Or that's nominally the goal, anyways.
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Old 13th July 2023, 07:23 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
You didn't read the article, did you?

That's kinda the whole thrust of the point, is that Rowling (and others like her) see "people who menstruate" in a headline and assume it's some woman-erasing plot by trans activists, instead of, ya know, an article specifically about menstrual health that does not even mention the existence of trans people.

On a hair trigger to go on their anti-trans rants, even when it's a non-sequitur.
Even if this is your honest position (which I completely doubt) how are Rowling’s comments transphobic?
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Old 13th July 2023, 07:24 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Even if this is your honest position (which I completely doubt) how are Rowling’s comments transphobic?
Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
It certainly belies a certain reflexive hostility towards trans people considering the text of the article makes little to no mention of trans people, and the subject matter explains why "people who menstruate" is an appropriate phrase.
Rowling hears hoofbeats and assumes zebras.
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Old 13th July 2023, 07:33 AM   #399
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Turkey that's just the "The only sin is being dramatic" thing the Conseravatives love to pull.

Do you really think terminology like "Persons who menstruate" being used ISN'T being informed by the raising acceptance of trans people (or the broader rising acceptance of looser and broader definitions of sexuality if that hair simply must be split.)

Buzzwords and dog whistles (or things equivalent to them again if that hair simply must be split) don't exist only in conservative bubbles.
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Old 13th July 2023, 07:33 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost View Post
That's kinda the whole thrust of the point, is that Rowling (and others like her) see "people who menstruate" in a headline and assume it's some woman-erasing plot by trans activists, instead of, ya know, an article specifically about menstrual health that does not even mention the existence of trans people.
The question is: why does an article about menstrual health use the bizarre and awkward phrase "people who menstruate" at all? What went through the mind of the author of the article which led them to use that phrase? Would they have done so, say, ten years ago, and if not what has changed that made them think they should use it rather than using the single well known and understood word I'm willing to bet was always used in such articles until quite recently?
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