[Continuation] Dear Users… (A thread for Sysadmin, Technical Support, and Help Desk people) Part 11 - Page 4

novaphile · 20th August 2023, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Quite true. Excel is effectively a bunch of relational tables. So you can "sort of" cobble it together to make it run as a fairly effective database. And that's often enough for the single user with a basic requirement.

But if you want to get into the full database mode - fully linked tables with different types of linkages, views, sharing and locking, transaction logging & rollbacks, etc. - Excel ain't it. For that, you need...Access!

No matter what the problem, MS Access is not the right answer.

:P

arthwollipot · 20th August 2023, 07:22 PM

Access, like all of the Office suite, is very good at what it is designed for. But most people don't use the right tool for the job at hand, and so they get a reputation for being **** at the things that they're not designed for, but for which people use them anyway.

Blue Mountain · 20th August 2023, 11:05 PM

Speaking of the (mis)use of spreadsheets:

Source: XKCD 1667: Algorithms by Complexity
(Mods: xkcd expressly allows hot-linking images)

Norman Alexander · 21st August 2023, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Access, like all of the Office suite, is very good at what it is designed for. But most people don't use the right tool for the job at hand, and so they get a reputation for being **** at the things that they're not designed for, but for which people use them anyway.

I actually feel sorry for the designers of Access. Used within its limitations, it's a pretty useful tool. But it falls right between two stools - not simple enough for the average user so they prefer Excel instead, and not enough built-in database-y features to make it robust and useful for a business. It's like they mashed up the least useful features of SQL and Excel, then made it non-standard enough to be annoying to make it work. Then Microsoft made it non-backwards compatible through the versions.

Which is why our business made their own home-grown asset management tool in Access, and why it stopped working suddenly, and why I have an extra old PC on my desk with Access 2013 on it that nobody can share.

Yay!

catsmate · 21st August 2023, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

I actually feel sorry for the designers of Access. Used within its limitations, it's a pretty useful tool. But it falls right between two stools - not simple enough for the average user so they prefer Excel instead, and not enough built-in database-y features to make it robust and useful for a business. It's like they mashed up the least useful features of SQL and Excel, then made it non-standard enough to be annoying to make it work. Then Microsoft made it non-backwards compatible through the versions.

Which is why our business made their own home-grown asset management tool in Access, and why it stopped working suddenly, and why I have an extra old PC on my desk with Access 2013 on it that nobody can share.

Yay!

Access was supposed to be split into two versions a few years ago, Office team politics did for the plan.

JoeMorgue · 21st August 2023, 06:18 AM

Microsoft.

Make up your mind if scrolling "up" goes backwards in time or scrolling "down" goes backwards in time.

In Teams I scroll up to see older messages. In Outlook I scroll down to see older e-mails.

JoeMorgue · 21st August 2023, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Exactly. Excel is great at what it is designed for - number crunching.

What really annoys me is where someone has used Excel for text-only data. Excel is for numbers! If you want to use words, use... well... Word. The Table functions in Word are fantastic.

Use the right tool for the job, damn it!

I have more than one user that uses PowerPoint as their defacto word processor/desktop publisher.

Darat · 21st August 2023, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I have more than one user that uses PowerPoint as their defacto word processor/desktop publisher.

That is not uncommon. The other half produces documents for an investment bank, 90% of them are created and then edited in Powerpoint, it's the same in many other banks.

Darat · 21st August 2023, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by novaphile

No matter what the problem, MS Access is not the right answer.

:P

Yep - it is dBASE II or nothing!

novaphile · 21st August 2023, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Yep - it is dBASE II or nothing!

Yep...

I had to maintain systems written in dBase II, III and IV, and something called 'Clipper' which may have been a dBase bolt-on, too long ago to remember now.

Those systems replaced systems written in Enable and Enable OA.

You can only imagine my relief when I started using real SQL on 'big iron'.

(And my dismay when I had to go back to MSSQL on toy hardware again).

By the time I was nearing retirement, MSSQL was my standard 'go-to' for database stuff and even ended up writing stuff that was 'wrapped' for some of our services.

It was funny how often people would confuse dBase with DB2 (or vice-versa) depending on the architecture they were familiar with.

(I still have a fondness for the performance tuning available with DB2).

"Files and indexes on separate devices you say? How about tables and records being physically laid out on disc platters so that read heads are reading multiple records at the same time?"

And that has started me pining for teradata, (sigh) again.

Wudang · 21st August 2023, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by novaphile

(I still have a fondness for the performance tuning available with DB2).

"Files and indexes on separate devices you say? How about tables and records being physically laid out on disc platters so that read heads are reading multiple records at the same time?"

And that has started me pining for teradata, (sigh) again.

I did a sql programming course with <Big bank>. When we came to. EXPLAIN the lecturer said I don't understand this chapter so I'll skip it. That explained a lot of problems I'd seen with developers at that bank. Gave him a crap review an bought a book.

a_unique_person · 21st August 2023, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Wudang

I did a sql programming course with . When we came to. EXPLAIN the lecturer said I don't understand this chapter so I'll skip it. That explained a lot of problems I'd seen with developers at that bank. Gave him a crap review an bought a book.

Explain is the hardest part. It would be good if they could get it to present the information in a form humans could understand rather than just a machine.

arthwollipot · 21st August 2023, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Microsoft.

Make up your mind if scrolling "up" goes backwards in time or scrolling "down" goes backwards in time.

In Teams I scroll up to see older messages. In Outlook I scroll down to see older e-mails.

You do know that you can change that, right?

arthwollipot · 21st August 2023, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I have more than one user that uses PowerPoint as their defacto word processor/desktop publisher.

TragicMonkey · 21st August 2023, 07:52 PM

Meh, let everybody use whatever works for them. So long as they don't try to bother me with their nonsense, it's all good.

Blue Mountain · 21st August 2023, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by novaphile

Yep...

I had to maintain systems written in dBase II, III and IV, and something called 'Clipper' which may have been a dBase bolt-on, too long ago to remember now.

Those systems replaced systems written in Enable and Enable OA.

You can only imagine my relief when I started using real SQL on 'big iron'.

(And my dismay when I had to go back to MSSQL on toy hardware again).

By the time I was nearing retirement, MSSQL was my standard 'go-to' for database stuff and even ended up writing stuff that was 'wrapped' for some of our services.

It was funny how often people would confuse dBase with DB2 (or vice-versa) depending on the architecture they were familiar with.

(I still have a fondness for the performance tuning available with DB2).

"Files and indexes on separate devices you say? How about tables and records being physically laid out on disc platters so that read heads are reading multiple records at the same time?"

And that has started me pining for teradata, (sigh) again.

I'm now using SQLite for most of my projects that need a database. It's super fast and no external server needed because it's distributed as a linkable library. Its SQL dialect is limited in some areas, and its lack of a real server process a la MariaDB or MSSQL would limit its usefulness in a multi-user environment, but for personal projects it's a joy to work with.

One potential downside is the system combines data and indexes into a single file, which means if the file gets corrupted the best you can do is attempt a recovery using available tools, or restore from backup. In practice this has not been a problem.

I would not recommend it for mission critical use. I'm unsure how well it holds up in scenarios where there are lots of updates and reads occurring from multiple sources simultaneously. It doesn't have built-in log transport or mirroring, but one might be able to use the underlying file system or logical volume management to improve robustness.

The SQLiteBrowser program is a very useful tool for working with SQLite databases. However, it doesn't have a front-end forms builder that Access has, so one need to use different tools such as LibreOffice Base for that.

arthwollipot · 21st August 2023, 11:10 PM

I count myself very lucky that I have never had a DBA job. The whole field looks like an absolute nightmare.

catsmate · 22nd August 2023, 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I count myself very lucky that I have never had a DBA job. The whole field looks like an absolute nightmare.

Oh it is.
Almost twenty years ago I did a project with <state agency> who relied on, for their core 'business' operations, a database written for DOS in the mid '80s and not just unsupported but actually impossible to find the owner of.They had retired, septuagenarian, developer who maintained and modified their code.

Wudang · 22nd August 2023, 07:03 AM

I use plex to manage and stream my movies. It's database is SqlLite. Works very well.

TragicMonkey · 22nd August 2023, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I count myself very lucky that I have never had a DBA job. The whole field looks like an absolute nightmare.

All the DBAs I encounter seem very energetic and excited people. But I tend to only see them when I'm running massive queries and locking tables and draining resources and causing a company-wide slowdown. They talk so fast, and make many animated facial expressions! It's a joy to watch.

ZirconBlue · 22nd August 2023, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Exactly. Excel is great at what it is designed for - number crunching.

What really annoys me is where someone has used Excel for text-only data. Excel is for numbers! If you want to use words, use... well... Word. The Table functions in Word are fantastic.

Use the right tool for the job, damn it!

Most times, I'll still use Excel because it lets me lay things out exactly the way I want them, without having to fight the software.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Microsoft.

Make up your mind if scrolling "up" goes backwards in time or scrolling "down" goes backwards in time.

In Teams I scroll up to see older messages. In Outlook I scroll down to see older e-mails.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

You do know that you can change that, right?

Indeed. Outlook defaults to Newest on Top, but I always change that immediately when I get a new computer.

novaphile · 22nd August 2023, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I count myself very lucky that I have never had a DBA job. The whole field looks like an absolute nightmare.

Yes indeed. I fully agree with both points.

I've worked closely with quite a lot of DBAs over the years and their mental state is roughly akin to that of submariners (i.e. a continuous feeling that they are about to be instantly crushed to death by forces utterly beyond their control.)

theprestige · 22nd August 2023, 04:58 PM

My experience has been that Network Engineers and DBAs both bring a certain amount of arrogance to any interaction. However the the netadmin's arrogance is a smokescreen for their comical degree of ignorance. Whereas the DBA's apparent arrogance is really a hard won understanding of the problems and their solutions.

So I will patiently listen to a netadmin's ranting, before quietly implementing the correct solution. But I will do whatever a DBA tells me needs to be done.

arthwollipot · 22nd August 2023, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

My experience has been that Network Engineers and DBAs both bring a certain amount of arrogance to any interaction...

For me, it's developers. They have a tendency to assume that because they can write code they understand everything about how a large enterprise network works, that everything can be fixed just by coding it out of existence, and that anyone who doesn't understand their highly technical details must be mentally deficient.

I'm generalising, of course. There are some devs who are absolutely lovely. But whenever we get a difficult caller, they are 80% either EAs or devs.

novaphile · 23rd August 2023, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

For me, it's developers. They have a tendency to assume that because they can write code they understand everything about how a large enterprise network works, that everything can be fixed just by coding it out of existence, and that anyone who doesn't understand their highly technical details must be mentally deficient.

I'm generalising, of course. There are some devs who are absolutely lovely. But whenever we get a difficult caller, they are 80% either EAs or devs.

Good grief!

If the Enterprise Architects don't know what they're doing it makes me wonder how they got there...

Actually, you have me wondering now. I have this vague idea that Centrelink had some 'Enterprise Architects' who were completely non-technical.

They created something like an 'enterprise information model' that contained gems like 'Job' and 'Plan' being linked by a 'Job Plan'.

If anyone found a use for their output, it didn't happen while I was there.

One member of that small team was an alcoholic that chugged Listerine at his desk all day, so that may have contributed to the lack of value in the model.

arthwollipot · 23rd August 2023, 06:44 PM

I meant Executive Assistants, but sure.

Wudang · 24th August 2023, 07:36 AM

I and others have encountered a few people with job titles like Enterprise Architect who have simply been promoted to it or claimed they'd been doing that job who are barely systems analysts. Terms like ADR mean nothing to them.

alfaniner · 24th August 2023, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Meh, let everybody use whatever works for them. So long as they don't try to bother me with their nonsense, it's all good.

I've sometimes found it very difficult to have to take over on a user's computer. While I can do many things on my own device practically blindfolded, it's always been a Hidden Object game trying to find how where the hell they put their standard icons.

rdaneel · 24th August 2023, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

I've sometimes found it very difficult to have to take over on a user's computer. While I can do many things on my own device practically blindfolded, it's always been a Hidden Object game trying to find how where the hell they put their standard icons.

Reading this, it just popped into my head, hacker breaks into an office, sits down at the computer, and is flummoxed not by any passwords or other security, but by the fact that he can't figure out what the hell this person did to their interface.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

alfaniner · 24th August 2023, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by rdaneel

Reading this, it just popped into my head, hacker breaks into an office, sits down at the computer, and is flummoxed not by any passwords or other security, but by the fact that he can't figure out what the hell this person did to their interface.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

novaphile · 24th August 2023, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by rdaneel

Reading this, it just popped into my head, hacker breaks into an office, sits down at the computer, and is flummoxed not by any passwords or other security, but by the fact that he can't figure out what the hell this person did to their interface.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

They'd surely have that problem with me.

On Windows desktops, I'd customise them to have no desktop icons and nothing in the auto start menu.

The state of my desktop when I left would have been even worse than that.

No matter what hack you can apply locally, there's no way they could have got into Secret Server or the associated connection manager.

It would have been a case of "Erm... Let's try a different one."

At one stage, Security Branch offered to install Suse linux on my computer but I didn't want to add to Desktop's headaches.

For the last two years, I was working from home and connecting via Citrix running on Debian. Good luck to any hacker trying to work through that!

(Trying to work out what software to start, what values to type into prompts, and managing the TFA and all of that assumes that they'd been successfully able to log into my Debian desktop.)

At every stage of the process, there is nothing 'saved' on my PC or home desktop.

Even if they'd been able to fire up Debian, log in, find and start Citrix, and find the Citrix server to connect to...

...they'd still have to guess the IP address of one of the computers that I could jump to to start getting access. (And then they'd have to find Secret Server etc.)

I've almost forgotten all those IP addresses, give me another 12 months and they'll be gone.

The last time someone tried to use my computer (at home) they said:

"Uhhhhh... Where's windows?"

grmcdorman · 24th August 2023, 06:41 PM

"It's Unix! I know this!" (probably mangled the quote, never saw the movie...)

I'd be reasonably comfortable with a *nix command line, but sounds like you have a lot of required knowledge in your head.

I also tend to use the command line a lot more than the other developers in my team, I often get impatient when they are mousing around trying to find the menu entry for a command that would take 2 seconds to enter... or they need to install SQL Server Management Studio to run a simple SQL query, when Windows PowerShell these days has a SQL query available. Can't recall the last time I installed the Management Studio.

arthwollipot · 24th August 2023, 06:53 PM

I still use the command line for one or two things in my job, but most command line functions have now been replaced by gui apps.

But again, I'm not a DBA or a sysop and I'm not scripting. I'm using the scripts that others have written.

catsmate · 25th August 2023, 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by grmcdorman

"It's Unix! I know this!" (probably mangled the quote, never saw the movie...)

I'd be reasonably comfortable with a *nix command line, but sounds like you have a lot of required knowledge in your head.

I also tend to use the command line a lot more than the other developers in my team, I often get impatient when they are mousing around trying to find the menu entry for a command that would take 2 seconds to enter... or they need to install SQL Server Management Studio to run a simple SQL query, when Windows PowerShell these days has a SQL query available. Can't recall the last time I installed the Management Studio.

Even with other Windows systems I tend to use the Run box (via Win + R) to start stuff like Word and Excel rather thn the awful menus.

Mongrel · 25th August 2023, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Even with other Windows systems I tend to use the Run box (via Win + R) to start stuff like Word and Excel rather thn the awful menus.

I've always used the context menu from the desktop, there's a plethora of stuff in the 'New' option

malbui · 25th August 2023, 04:13 AM

Both of my Linux boxes at home are running the Irish language GUI and I’ve aliased the crap out of standard system commands to stop me from making stupid errors. Always fun when I have a visitor.

Wudang · 25th August 2023, 06:33 AM

I tend to use the terminal on linux because I started with BSD in the early 80s, ran some AIX servers in the 90s and tested software on AIX, HP, Solaris (and more?). Then later Linux. All had different management GUIs, though at least in 90s most ran CDE, so rather than remember how the different GUIs worked I could stick to the common commands.
Much like my experience with DBs, I try to stick to SQL 92 standard which works everywhere.

Darat · 25th August 2023, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Mongrel

I've always used the context menu from the desktop, there's a plethora of stuff in the 'New' option

Windows Key type "note" enter - if they ever change that I'll get very cross.

Blue Mountain · 25th August 2023, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Windows Key type "note" enter - if they ever change that I'll get very cross.

I have backlit LED keyboard with replaceable keycaps. I asked Logitech if they had a penguin keycap that I could use in place of the Windows one. They didn't.

I looked into getting one from a third party, but for some reason didn't like the options.

commandlinegamer · 26th August 2023, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

I have backlit LED keyboard with replaceable keycaps. I asked Logitech if they had a penguin keycap that I could use in place of the Windows one. They didn't.

I looked into getting one from a third party, but for some reason didn't like the options.

Print your own label for the key. I did that when I remapped the second Windows key to be Compose.

ETA: Okay, might not look so good backlit.

20th August 2023, 07:15 PM	#121
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 5,607	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Quite true. Excel is effectively a bunch of relational tables. So you can "sort of" cobble it together to make it run as a fairly effective database. And that's often enough for the single user with a basic requirement. But if you want to get into the full database mode - fully linked tables with different types of linkages, views, sharing and locking, transaction logging & rollbacks, etc. - Excel ain't it. For that, you need...Access! No matter what the problem, MS Access is not the right answer. :P
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

20th August 2023, 07:22 PM	#122
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 84,444	Access, like all of the Office suite, is very good at what it is designed for. But most people don't use the right tool for the job at hand, and so they get a reputation for being **** at the things that they're not designed for, but for which people use them anyway.
	__________________ A million people can call the mountains a fiction Yet it need not trouble you as you stand atop them https://xkcd.com/154/

20th August 2023, 11:05 PM	#123
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,489	Speaking of the (mis)use of spreadsheets: Source: XKCD 1667: Algorithms by Complexity (Mods: xkcd expressly allows hot-linking images)
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)

21st August 2023, 01:10 AM	#124
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 15,717	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Access, like all of the Office suite, is very good at what it is designed for. But most people don't use the right tool for the job at hand, and so they get a reputation for being **** at the things that they're not designed for, but for which people use them anyway. I actually feel sorry for the designers of Access. Used within its limitations, it's a pretty useful tool. But it falls right between two stools - not simple enough for the average user so they prefer Excel instead, and not enough built-in database-y features to make it robust and useful for a business. It's like they mashed up the least useful features of SQL and Excel, then made it non-standard enough to be annoying to make it work. Then Microsoft made it non-backwards compatible through the versions. Which is why our business made their own home-grown asset management tool in Access, and why it stopped working suddenly, and why I have an extra old PC on my desk with Access 2013 on it that nobody can share. Yay!
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

21st August 2023, 01:27 AM	#125
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,319	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander I actually feel sorry for the designers of Access. Used within its limitations, it's a pretty useful tool. But it falls right between two stools - not simple enough for the average user so they prefer Excel instead, and not enough built-in database-y features to make it robust and useful for a business. It's like they mashed up the least useful features of SQL and Excel, then made it non-standard enough to be annoying to make it work. Then Microsoft made it non-backwards compatible through the versions. Which is why our business made their own home-grown asset management tool in Access, and why it stopped working suddenly, and why I have an extra old PC on my desk with Access 2013 on it that nobody can share. Yay! Access was supposed to be split into two versions a few years ago, Office team politics did for the plan.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

21st August 2023, 06:18 AM	#126
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 45,240	Microsoft. Make up your mind if scrolling "up" goes backwards in time or scrolling "down" goes backwards in time. In Teams I scroll up to see older messages. In Outlook I scroll down to see older e-mails.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

21st August 2023, 06:19 AM	#127
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 45,240	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Exactly. Excel is great at what it is designed for - number crunching. What really annoys me is where someone has used Excel for text-only data. Excel is for numbers! If you want to use words, use... well... Word. The Table functions in Word are fantastic. Use the right tool for the job, damn it! I have more than one user that uses PowerPoint as their defacto word processor/desktop publisher.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

21st August 2023, 07:46 AM	#128
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 111,118	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I have more than one user that uses PowerPoint as their defacto word processor/desktop publisher. That is not uncommon. The other half produces documents for an investment bank, 90% of them are created and then edited in Powerpoint, it's the same in many other banks.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

21st August 2023, 07:48 AM	#129
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 111,118	Originally Posted by novaphile No matter what the problem, MS Access is not the right answer. :P Yep - it is dBASE II or nothing!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

21st August 2023, 04:10 PM	#130
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 5,607	Originally Posted by Darat Yep - it is dBASE II or nothing! Yep... I had to maintain systems written in dBase II, III and IV, and something called 'Clipper' which may have been a dBase bolt-on, too long ago to remember now. Those systems replaced systems written in Enable and Enable OA. You can only imagine my relief when I started using real SQL on 'big iron'. (And my dismay when I had to go back to MSSQL on toy hardware again). By the time I was nearing retirement, MSSQL was my standard 'go-to' for database stuff and even ended up writing stuff that was 'wrapped' for some of our services. It was funny how often people would confuse dBase with DB2 (or vice-versa) depending on the architecture they were familiar with. (I still have a fondness for the performance tuning available with DB2). "Files and indexes on separate devices you say? How about tables and records being physically laid out on disc platters so that read heads are reading multiple records at the same time?" And that has started me pining for teradata, (sigh) again.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

21st August 2023, 04:28 PM	#131
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,774	Originally Posted by novaphile (I still have a fondness for the performance tuning available with DB2). "Files and indexes on separate devices you say? How about tables and records being physically laid out on disc platters so that read heads are reading multiple records at the same time?" And that has started me pining for teradata, (sigh) again. I did a sql programming course with <Big bank>. When we came to. EXPLAIN the lecturer said I don't understand this chapter so I'll skip it. That explained a lot of problems I'd seen with developers at that bank. Gave him a crap review an bought a book.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

21st August 2023, 04:49 PM	#132
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 45,710	Originally Posted by Wudang I did a sql programming course with . When we came to. EXPLAIN the lecturer said I don't understand this chapter so I'll skip it. That explained a lot of problems I'd seen with developers at that bank. Gave him a crap review an bought a book. Explain is the hardest part. It would be good if they could get it to present the information in a form humans could understand rather than just a machine.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

21st August 2023, 06:29 PM	#133
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 84,444	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Microsoft. Make up your mind if scrolling "up" goes backwards in time or scrolling "down" goes backwards in time. In Teams I scroll up to see older messages. In Outlook I scroll down to see older e-mails. You do know that you can change that, right?
	__________________ A million people can call the mountains a fiction Yet it need not trouble you as you stand atop them https://xkcd.com/154/

21st August 2023, 06:44 PM	#134
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 84,444	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I have more than one user that uses PowerPoint as their defacto word processor/desktop publisher.
	__________________ A million people can call the mountains a fiction Yet it need not trouble you as you stand atop them https://xkcd.com/154/

21st August 2023, 07:52 PM	#135
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,989	Meh, let everybody use whatever works for them. So long as they don't try to bother me with their nonsense, it's all good.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st August 2023, 11:08 PM	#136
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,489	Originally Posted by novaphile Yep... I had to maintain systems written in dBase II, III and IV, and something called 'Clipper' which may have been a dBase bolt-on, too long ago to remember now. Those systems replaced systems written in Enable and Enable OA. You can only imagine my relief when I started using real SQL on 'big iron'. (And my dismay when I had to go back to MSSQL on toy hardware again). By the time I was nearing retirement, MSSQL was my standard 'go-to' for database stuff and even ended up writing stuff that was 'wrapped' for some of our services. It was funny how often people would confuse dBase with DB2 (or vice-versa) depending on the architecture they were familiar with. (I still have a fondness for the performance tuning available with DB2). "Files and indexes on separate devices you say? How about tables and records being physically laid out on disc platters so that read heads are reading multiple records at the same time?" And that has started me pining for teradata, (sigh) again. I'm now using SQLite for most of my projects that need a database. It's super fast and no external server needed because it's distributed as a linkable library. Its SQL dialect is limited in some areas, and its lack of a real server process a la MariaDB or MSSQL would limit its usefulness in a multi-user environment, but for personal projects it's a joy to work with. One potential downside is the system combines data and indexes into a single file, which means if the file gets corrupted the best you can do is attempt a recovery using available tools, or restore from backup. In practice this has not been a problem. I would not recommend it for mission critical use. I'm unsure how well it holds up in scenarios where there are lots of updates and reads occurring from multiple sources simultaneously. It doesn't have built-in log transport or mirroring, but one might be able to use the underlying file system or logical volume management to improve robustness. The SQLiteBrowser program is a very useful tool for working with SQLite databases. However, it doesn't have a front-end forms builder that Access has, so one need to use different tools such as LibreOffice Base for that.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Last edited by Blue Mountain; 21st August 2023 at 11:10 PM.

21st August 2023, 11:10 PM	#137
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 84,444	I count myself very lucky that I have never had a DBA job. The whole field looks like an absolute nightmare.
	__________________ A million people can call the mountains a fiction Yet it need not trouble you as you stand atop them https://xkcd.com/154/

22nd August 2023, 02:26 AM	#138
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,319	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I count myself very lucky that I have never had a DBA job. The whole field looks like an absolute nightmare. Oh it is. Almost twenty years ago I did a project with <state agency> who relied on, for their core 'business' operations, a database written for DOS in the mid '80s and not just unsupported but actually impossible to find the owner of.They had retired, septuagenarian, developer who maintained and modified their code.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

22nd August 2023, 07:03 AM	#139
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,774	I use plex to manage and stream my movies. It's database is SqlLite. Works very well.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

22nd August 2023, 08:12 AM	#140
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,989	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I count myself very lucky that I have never had a DBA job. The whole field looks like an absolute nightmare. All the DBAs I encounter seem very energetic and excited people. But I tend to only see them when I'm running massive queries and locking tables and draining resources and causing a company-wide slowdown. They talk so fast, and make many animated facial expressions! It's a joy to watch.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

22nd August 2023, 09:48 AM	#141
ZirconBlue Sole Survivor of L-Town Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lexington, KY, USA, Earth Posts: 14,965	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Exactly. Excel is great at what it is designed for - number crunching. What really annoys me is where someone has used Excel for text-only data. Excel is for numbers! If you want to use words, use... well... Word. The Table functions in Word are fantastic. Use the right tool for the job, damn it! Most times, I'll still use Excel because it lets me lay things out exactly the way I want them, without having to fight the software. Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Microsoft. Make up your mind if scrolling "up" goes backwards in time or scrolling "down" goes backwards in time. In Teams I scroll up to see older messages. In Outlook I scroll down to see older e-mails. Originally Posted by arthwollipot You do know that you can change that, right? Indeed. Outlook defaults to Newest on Top, but I always change that immediately when I get a new computer.
	__________________ Religion and sex are powerplays. Manipulate the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God The numbers look the same on their credit cards.

22nd August 2023, 04:47 PM	#142
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 5,607	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I count myself very lucky that I have never had a DBA job. The whole field looks like an absolute nightmare. Yes indeed. I fully agree with both points. I've worked closely with quite a lot of DBAs over the years and their mental state is roughly akin to that of submariners (i.e. a continuous feeling that they are about to be instantly crushed to death by forces utterly beyond their control.)
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

22nd August 2023, 04:58 PM	#143
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 65,862	My experience has been that Network Engineers and DBAs both bring a certain amount of arrogance to any interaction. However the the netadmin's arrogance is a smokescreen for their comical degree of ignorance. Whereas the DBA's apparent arrogance is really a hard won understanding of the problems and their solutions. So I will patiently listen to a netadmin's ranting, before quietly implementing the correct solution. But I will do whatever a DBA tells me needs to be done.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

22nd August 2023, 05:56 PM	#144
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 84,444	Originally Posted by theprestige My experience has been that Network Engineers and DBAs both bring a certain amount of arrogance to any interaction... For me, it's developers. They have a tendency to assume that because they can write code they understand everything about how a large enterprise network works, that everything can be fixed just by coding it out of existence, and that anyone who doesn't understand their highly technical details must be mentally deficient. I'm generalising, of course. There are some devs who are absolutely lovely. But whenever we get a difficult caller, they are 80% either EAs or devs.
	__________________ A million people can call the mountains a fiction Yet it need not trouble you as you stand atop them https://xkcd.com/154/

23rd August 2023, 06:40 PM	#145
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 5,607	Originally Posted by arthwollipot For me, it's developers. They have a tendency to assume that because they can write code they understand everything about how a large enterprise network works, that everything can be fixed just by coding it out of existence, and that anyone who doesn't understand their highly technical details must be mentally deficient. I'm generalising, of course. There are some devs who are absolutely lovely. But whenever we get a difficult caller, they are 80% either EAs or devs. Good grief! If the Enterprise Architects don't know what they're doing it makes me wonder how they got there... Actually, you have me wondering now. I have this vague idea that Centrelink had some 'Enterprise Architects' who were completely non-technical. They created something like an 'enterprise information model' that contained gems like 'Job' and 'Plan' being linked by a 'Job Plan'. If anyone found a use for their output, it didn't happen while I was there. One member of that small team was an alcoholic that chugged Listerine at his desk all day, so that may have contributed to the lack of value in the model.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

23rd August 2023, 06:44 PM	#146
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 84,444	I meant Executive Assistants, but sure.
	__________________ A million people can call the mountains a fiction Yet it need not trouble you as you stand atop them https://xkcd.com/154/

24th August 2023, 07:36 AM	#147
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,774	I and others have encountered a few people with job titles like Enterprise Architect who have simply been promoted to it or claimed they'd been doing that job who are barely systems analysts. Terms like ADR mean nothing to them.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

24th August 2023, 11:41 AM	#148
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 28,403	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Meh, let everybody use whatever works for them. So long as they don't try to bother me with their nonsense, it's all good. I've sometimes found it very difficult to have to take over on a user's computer. While I can do many things on my own device practically blindfolded, it's always been a Hidden Object game trying to find how where the hell they put their standard icons.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

24th August 2023, 01:17 PM	#149
rdaneel Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: I'M IN THE PHONEBOOK! I'M SOMEBODY!!! Posts: 4,688	Originally Posted by alfaniner I've sometimes found it very difficult to have to take over on a user's computer. While I can do many things on my own device practically blindfolded, it's always been a Hidden Object game trying to find how where the hell they put their standard icons. Reading this, it just popped into my head, hacker breaks into an office, sits down at the computer, and is flummoxed not by any passwords or other security, but by the fact that he can't figure out what the hell this person did to their interface. Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
	__________________ "Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor "I heard some things I can't prove from someone I don't know, and God dammit, that's enough for me." - Penny Arcade "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from Science!" - Agatha Heterodyne

24th August 2023, 03:10 PM	#150
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 28,403	Originally Posted by rdaneel Reading this, it just popped into my head, hacker breaks into an office, sits down at the computer, and is flummoxed not by any passwords or other security, but by the fact that he can't figure out what the hell this person did to their interface. Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

24th August 2023, 05:01 PM	#151
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 5,607	Originally Posted by rdaneel Reading this, it just popped into my head, hacker breaks into an office, sits down at the computer, and is flummoxed not by any passwords or other security, but by the fact that he can't figure out what the hell this person did to their interface. Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk They'd surely have that problem with me. On Windows desktops, I'd customise them to have no desktop icons and nothing in the auto start menu. The state of my desktop when I left would have been even worse than that. No matter what hack you can apply locally, there's no way they could have got into Secret Server or the associated connection manager. It would have been a case of "Erm... Let's try a different one." At one stage, Security Branch offered to install Suse linux on my computer but I didn't want to add to Desktop's headaches. For the last two years, I was working from home and connecting via Citrix running on Debian. Good luck to any hacker trying to work through that! (Trying to work out what software to start, what values to type into prompts, and managing the TFA and all of that assumes that they'd been successfully able to log into my Debian desktop.) At every stage of the process, there is nothing 'saved' on my PC or home desktop. Even if they'd been able to fire up Debian, log in, find and start Citrix, and find the Citrix server to connect to... ...they'd still have to guess the IP address of one of the computers that I could jump to to start getting access. (And then they'd have to find Secret Server etc.) I've almost forgotten all those IP addresses, give me another 12 months and they'll be gone. The last time someone tried to use my computer (at home) they said: "Uhhhhh... Where's windows?"
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

24th August 2023, 06:41 PM	#152
grmcdorman Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,433	"It's Unix! I know this!" (probably mangled the quote, never saw the movie...) I'd be reasonably comfortable with a *nix command line, but sounds like you have a lot of required knowledge in your head. I also tend to use the command line a lot more than the other developers in my team, I often get impatient when they are mousing around trying to find the menu entry for a command that would take 2 seconds to enter... or they need to install SQL Server Management Studio to run a simple SQL query, when Windows PowerShell these days has a SQL query available. Can't recall the last time I installed the Management Studio.
	__________________ "Hello. My name is Inigo Skywalker. You are my father. Prepare to die."

24th August 2023, 06:53 PM	#153
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 84,444	I still use the command line for one or two things in my job, but most command line functions have now been replaced by gui apps. But again, I'm not a DBA or a sysop and I'm not scripting. I'm using the scripts that others have written.
	__________________ A million people can call the mountains a fiction Yet it need not trouble you as you stand atop them https://xkcd.com/154/

25th August 2023, 02:34 AM	#154
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29,319	Originally Posted by grmcdorman "It's Unix! I know this!" (probably mangled the quote, never saw the movie...) I'd be reasonably comfortable with a *nix command line, but sounds like you have a lot of required knowledge in your head. I also tend to use the command line a lot more than the other developers in my team, I often get impatient when they are mousing around trying to find the menu entry for a command that would take 2 seconds to enter... or they need to install SQL Server Management Studio to run a simple SQL query, when Windows PowerShell these days has a SQL query available. Can't recall the last time I installed the Management Studio. Even with other Windows systems I tend to use the Run box (via Win + R) to start stuff like Word and Excel rather thn the awful menus.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

25th August 2023, 04:08 AM	#155
Mongrel Begging for Scraps Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: UK, suburbia. 20 minutes in the future Posts: 2,234	Originally Posted by catsmate Even with other Windows systems I tend to use the Run box (via Win + R) to start stuff like Word and Excel rather thn the awful menus. I've always used the context menu from the desktop, there's a plethora of stuff in the 'New' option
	__________________ “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin ...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer