Continuation The Russian Invasion of Ukraine part 8

[Doubt]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Lookin like some major ground taken by Ukraine south of Robotyne!! Tokmak is maybe within 155m range now.

Their source is just some telegram link in Ukrainian though.

https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/21-aug...cess-southeast



Maybe, just maybe, Russia deserves to be bashed? Have you given any thought to that? Good god you'd be the guy in 1940 saying: actchwually the Germans deserve to have Alsace back, and have you seen the poll taken by the SS that shows 104% of people there want to be German!

The ISW map seems to have introduced a new, dark blue color to document land Ukraine claims to have taken in the the last 24 hours. One of those dark blue areas today covers the middle of Robotyne.

Same maps also shows two major defensive lines to penetrate before reaching Tokmak.


https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories...de641cf64bd375

Note that this map is updated daily and they don't show you past versions, so if you look at this after August 21st, that space will look different.

ETA:

If you look at the Deepstatemap.live site, a lot of Russian units are now concentrated in that area. But many of them are "BARS" units, which are fairly recently activated reserve units that did not exist before 2021.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Wildy

I find the contrast between these two posts to be striking.



It's interesting to note the clear whataboutism in play when Russia kills civilians. Sharing an article by RT about Ukraine shelling Donetsk to make it seem like Russia's actions aren't that bad.

But lets take a look at what happens when Ukraine kills civilians:



What do we see here? A condemnation of Ukraine's actions and an argument that they are committing a war crime. The same "Donetsk is being shelled" article is shared, but this time it's to support the idea that the Ukrainians are nothing but war criminals. We don't see the whataboutism we saw with the Russian killing of civilians, instead all blame is placed on the Ukrainians for their actions.

I wonder how much money Sarzoky has invested in Russia....

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

To an American "public school" = "state school".

Which is why Americans are confused when they find out that elite, ultra expensive and exclusive private schools Like Eton , Rugby and Harrow are called 'Public Schools in the UK'.

[crescent]

Originally Posted by Doubt

The ISW map seems to have introduced a new, dark blue color to document land Ukraine claims to have taken in the the last 24 hours. One of those dark blue areas today covers the middle of Robotyne.

Same maps also shows two major defensive lines to penetrate before reaching Tokmak.


https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories...de641cf64bd375

Note that this map is updated daily and they don't show you past versions, so if you look at this after August 21st, that space will look different.

ETA:

If you look at the Deepstatemap.live site, a lot of Russian units are now concentrated in that area. But many of them are "BARS" units, which are fairly recently activated reserve units that did not exist before 2021.

Seeing lots of tankie accounts on Twitter claiming that Robotyne is very small and unimportant and therefore didn't rate much effort to defend it.

That pretty well confirms that Ukraine liberated it.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

We know you love the Nazis. You don’t need to keep reminding us.

Look, there were some very fine people on both sides.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

We know you love the Nazis. You don’t need to keep reminding us.

*checks to see if this is a joke or not*

Nope, not a joke.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I sometimes criticize the Kremlin too, but somehow this tends to get ignored.

Your criticisms of the Kremlin tend to be... extremely subdued, to be kind, and oft directly connected with pushing pro-Russian propaganda. I've seen a lot of Russians that were able to criticize Russia waaaay more honestly than you. Meanwhile, your criticisms of Ukraine tend to be unreasonable and loud. Much the inverse of the unreasonably quiet and few criticisms that you're willing to make towards Russia.

Originally Posted by Michel H

Sure, you can feel comfortable bashing Russia all day long with some friends.

But a question you might ask yourself is this: does this stop the violence, the killing, the destruction, the economic and environmental crisis ?

Is your approach promising on that front? No, it doesn't actually stop the violence, the killing, the kidnappings, the damage in general. At best, it delays it in such a way that we can safely expect much worse to result in the future. There's an old saying - An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. That fairly certainly applies here.

Originally Posted by Michel H

Does this kind of talk resonate in Moscow, in Beijing, in Africa, in Tehran, in Pyongyang ?

Interesting choices. Are you arguing that Kiev and NATO have no right to be heard, then, and must submit to Moscow and Pyongyang?

Originally Posted by Michel H

I doubt it, and it seems impossible to attain peace quickly if you are unable to extract yourselves from your easy certainties, possibly gathered on the various Western news websites.

We likely have different views about what "peace" actually is, then. That which you're pushing doesn't seem much like either actual peace or a path to actual peace. Rather, it seems like little more than an enticement that sets the stage for a larger and even more horrible war.

As for easy certainties, perhaps you should be looking in the mirror and be a bit warier of actual deceptions being spread via, for example, RT.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Yes, then as now you decide that some countries should just be allowed to be conquered in the name of peace. Because your peace of mind is more important than other people being mascaraed and enslaved.

Mascaraed? You sure know how to bring out the cruel and unusual threats!

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Officials have assured us that cluster munition use will be carefully documented, but surprise surprise, ask an actual artillery crewman and they respond "we ain't doing that".

I think that was part of the agreement made, after all. I'm not sure how many people had faith that it would be followed to the letter in practice, of course. Doesn't really change much when it comes to the reasons why they're actually being supplied to Ukraine.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Do these cluster shells have a significantly worse rate of duds compared to the conventional HE shells?

Normally, yes, I think. Supposedly, the kinds provided to Ukraine have relatively low dud rates for cluster munitions, but low is far from none.

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

OK... but there are purpose built munitions for delivering mines via artillery shell, and checking on it, Russia does have them.

Seems to me to be inefficient to have a weapon that is kind of halfway between artillery and remote minefield delivery system.

Ukraine has them, too, if I'm understanding what you speak of correctly (I could easily be wrong), and has used them to devastating effect near Vuhledar, IIRC. Russia managed to clear paths at least part way through minefields and prevented Ukraine from planting mines in the area again via normal means before their next attempt through, but Ukraine got around that by launching mines back into the cleared paths. More Russian vehicles were then lost as they tried using the previous paths.

[Andy_Ross]

47th Mechanized brigade has taken Robotyne.
They have evacuated the remaining civilians using Bradleys.

Quote:

We will publish footage from the village of
Robotyne later for the SAFETY of our soldiers. The
battles continue and we are entrenched in the
achieved boundaries.

https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1...YOhjoO4hg&s=19
Since then video has been posted

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I sometimes criticize the Kremlin too, but somehow this tends to get ignored.

Sure, you can feel comfortable bashing Russia all day long with some friends.

But a question you might ask yourself is this: does this stop the violence, the killing, the destruction, the economic and environmental crisis ?

Does this kind of talk resonate in Moscow, in Beijing, in Africa, in Tehran, in Pyongyang ?

I doubt it, and it seems impossible to attain peace quickly if you are unable to extract yourselves from your easy certainties, possibly gathered on the various Western news websites.

No. Donations I made to Ukraine's Drone Army will stop the violence. Ukraine winning the war will stop the violence.

Russia's military destruction is the best possible message we could send to Beijing, Tehran and Pyongyang. As for Africa, it doesn't matter. Most of Africa snubbed the Putin boy's little summit so they've already made their decision.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Craig4

Russia's military destruction is the best possible message we could send to Beijing, Tehran and Pyongyang.

It is probably impossible to destroy Russia militarily because Russia has many powerful nuclear weapons.

In addition, it would be better for humanity that this war never reaches the very dangerous nuclear stage.

Western countries are now posing as very shocked innocent doves.

But we know that they have committed recently major acts of violence themselves, for which they were not particularly punished.

[Andy_Ross]

Fighting well to the south of Robotyne being reported.

[Andy_Ross]

Prigozhin has turned up in Africa. He's released a video and says that Wagner is currently "making Russia even greater on all continents, and Africa even freer. We bring justice and happiness to the African peoples".

[Lukraak_Sisser]

1984 was a textbook to Russia it seems.

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Michel H

My suggested peace plan isn't purely pro-Russian (I haven't felt a real need to change it, after many months).

I would just ask the Russian army to withdraw to their February 23, 2022 positions (going back to where they were then), Crimea and the two people's republics (Donetsk and Luhansk) may join Russia, Ukraine promises to stay neutral (i.e. to not join NATO) for at least 10 years, all sanctions are lifted, and there are no war reparations to pay by either side.

This is my peace plan, which I have tried to make very balanced, and which is based on a careful study of the political situation and its history.

What, in your peace plan prevents Russia from invading Ukraine again next year?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

47th Mechanized brigade has taken Robotyne.
They have evacuated the remaining civilians using Bradleys.

Holy cow. A village of <checks Wiki> fewer than 500, heavily fought over and largely destroyed and yet there were still civilians living there. Astounding.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by jeremyp

What, in your peace plan prevents Russia from invading Ukraine again next year?

Supposedly they wouldn't do it again (let's hope ...), because they finally feel more respected, and they feel that their main concerns has finally been addressed properly.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Supposedly they wouldn't do it again (let's hope ...), because they finally feel more respected, and they feel that their main concerns has finally been addressed properly.

Comedy gold

Face-eating leopards will no longer eat faces because their main concerns have been addressed properly.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Supposedly they wouldn't do it again (let's hope ...), because they finally feel more respected, and they feel that their main concerns has finally been addressed properly.

So tell us who, exactly, respects Russia? Besides your self, of course

[theprestige]

I feel like Moscow's concerns are being treated properly right now.

[Andy_Ross]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Holy cow. A village of <checks Wiki> fewer than 500, heavily fought over and largely destroyed and yet there were still civilians living there. Astounding.

Looks to be in the immediate area around the village too, it's quite dispersed

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Supposedly they wouldn't do it again (let's hope ...), because they finally feel more respected, and they feel that their main concerns has finally been addressed properly.

Yes, a very apt choice of words.

English isn't your first language and the nuance has probably escaped you, but putting "supposedly" on the front of that sentence flags it as a facade.

What concrete measures in your peace plan would stop Russia from changing its mind, breaking any agreement and launching another invasion.

My view is that Russia cannot be trusted and any peace plan has to include NATO membership for Ukraine or we'll just be back here in a few years with Russia taking the next slice of territory.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Steve

So tell us who, exactly, respects Russia? Besides your self, of course

I believe everybody (including in Ukraine) should show some respect for Russia.

Knowing, of course, that Russian leaders can sometimes make some mistakes, like Western leaders do.

If you don't respect Russia, this is probably because you haven't made a sufficient effort to try to understand the Russian point of view.

One important thing for the leaders of Russia is the proper protection of Russian-speaking minorities who live in other countries, such as Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova ... (frequently, countries which were part of the Soviet Union before 1991).

I believe this is widely misunderstood in the West.

[Ian Osborne]

This war must end with Putin either dead or incarcerated. If it doesn't, it hasn't ended.

[MarkCorrigan]

You're simply spouting propaganda. Again.

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I believe everybody (including in Ukraine) should show some respect for Russia.

Seriously? **** off.

Quote:

Knowing, of course, that Russian leaders can sometimes make some mistakes, like Western leaders do.

Hell of a mistake.

Quote:

If you don't respect Russia, this is probably because you haven't made a sufficient effort to try to understand the Russian point of view.

I don't respect Russia because it is led by a bunch of corrupt gangsters who have no respect for the law or justice.

Quote:

One important thing for the leaders of Russia is the proper protection of Russian-speaking minorities who live in other countries, such as Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova ... (frequently, countries which were part of the Soviet Union before 1991).

Invading those countries is not the answer though.

Quote:

I believe this is widely misunderstood in the West.

I believe the true nature of the Russian leadership is well understood in the West. They are a bunch of crooks.

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I believe everybody (including in Ukraine) should show some respect for Russia.

Knowing, of course, that Russian leaders can sometimes make some mistakes, like Western leaders do.

If you don't respect Russia, this is probably because you haven't made a sufficient effort to try to understand the Russian point of view.

One important thing for the leaders of Russia is the proper protection of Russian-speaking minorities who live in other countries, such as Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova ... (frequently, countries which were part of the Soviet Union before 1991).

I believe this is widely misunderstood in the West.

Why?

Under Putin Russia has devolved from a fledgling democracy into a fascist lootocracy where Putin and his cronies can freely loot what they want.

It's own population is repressed and has less freedom than any of the so-called oppressed minorities in the neighbouring countries, especially Ukraine.
Free press is a thing of the past there again.

There is no freedom of religion, no freedom for anyone not straight, no freedom for anyone that disagrees with the regime (hell if you'd been a Russian criticizing Russia the way you as a EU citizen criticize the EU you'd have vanished years ago).

It's military is clearly a pathetic joke only able to advance to where it was because the Ukraine had a hand tied behind it's back before the invasion because western aid was tied to 'not provoking Russia' when it was clearly preparing to invade and because Russia is willing to throw away it's manpower soviet style.

They have shown in Syria and Ukraine and every other battlefield in the last 20 years that their primary and preferred targets are unarmed civilians

The regime nearly fell because they were unable to keep their own mercenaries in check.

Seriously, what is there to respect about Russia as it is at the moment?

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Michel H

It is probably impossible to destroy Russia militarily because Russia has many powerful nuclear weapons.

Which they're not likely to use when it comes to Ukraine, specifically because using such would be almost guaranteed to lead to NATO directly getting involved.

Originally Posted by Michel H

In addition, it would be better for humanity that this war never reaches the very dangerous nuclear stage.

Absolutely. If Russia took Ukraine, or even just had significant land concessions given to them in this round of attack, the chances of Russia being emboldened to actually attack NATO would directly skyrocket. That would be far, far more likely to lead to nuclear war, in the end.

To be perfectly clear, Russia is NOT afraid of NATO aggression. If they were, they wouldn't have stripped their defenses all along their borders with NATO.

Originally Posted by Michel H

Western countries are now posing as very shocked innocent doves.

But we know that they have committed recently major acts of violence themselves, for which they were not particularly punished.

Yes, yes. We know that you're all too happy to loudly and unreasonably criticize the "West" while being only able to offer the most feeble of criticisms towards those who objectively are currently engaged in committing mass atrocities. Let me ask you, though, does this kind of talk resonate in Kiev, in Washington, in Europe, in Ottawa, in Seoul?

Originally Posted by Michel H

Supposedly they wouldn't do it again (let's hope ...), because they finally feel more respected, and they feel that their main concerns has finally been addressed properly.

They would be highly likely to do it again, because "feeling respected" has little to nothing to do with why Russia invaded Ukraine and their main concerns are not what you seem to want to pretend that they are, possibly because you've let yourself be misled by the famously dishonest Russian State Propaganda machine.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Why?

Under Putin Russia has devolved from a fledgling democracy into a fascist lootocracy where Putin and his cronies can freely loot what they want.

It's own population is repressed and has less freedom than any of the so-called oppressed minorities in the neighbouring countries, especially Ukraine.
Free press is a thing of the past there again.

There is no freedom of religion, no freedom for anyone not straight, no freedom for anyone that disagrees with the regime (hell if you'd been a Russian criticizing Russia the way you as a EU citizen criticize the EU you'd have vanished years ago).

It's military is clearly a pathetic joke only able to advance to where it was because the Ukraine had a hand tied behind it's back before the invasion because western aid was tied to 'not provoking Russia' when it was clearly preparing to invade and because Russia is willing to throw away it's manpower soviet style.

They have shown in Syria and Ukraine and every other battlefield in the last 20 years that their primary and preferred targets are unarmed civilians

The regime nearly fell because they were unable to keep their own mercenaries in check.

Seriously, what is there to respect about Russia as it is at the moment?

The human rights situation in Russia has clearly worsened recently because of the war, and would probably improve again if the war stopped.

Ukraine and its allies should do their part towards ending this war, in my opinion.

Before the war, Russia was a persecuted country, very badly treated by NATO countries (the same being true for Russian ally Yugoslavia, which has now roughly become Serbia).

In particular, Ukraine and the West shouldn't have imposed sanctions after Russia annexed pro-Russian Crimea, because respect of democracy is an essential principle in today's world.

By the way, you could also ask: "What really is there to respect in the U.S.? (a country which has bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, indirectly gravely persecuted the Palestinians by helping Israel too much, illegally invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, bombed Syria, assassinated an important Iranian general and so on and so on ...)".

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I believe everybody (including in Ukraine) should show some respect for Russia.

Knowing, of course, that Russian leaders can sometimes make some mistakes, like Western leaders do.

If you don't respect Russia, this is probably because you haven't made a sufficient effort to try to understand the Russian point of view.

One important thing for the leaders of Russia is the proper protection of Russian-speaking minorities who live in other countries, such as Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova ... (frequently, countries which were part of the Soviet Union before 1991).

I believe this is widely misunderstood in the West.

Russian speaking minorities were not being oppressed by Ukraine. That was Russian propaganda. There's also the "little" fact that the Russian speaking minorities kept increasing. Partly because people wanted to GTFO of Russia! And partly because of state sponsored infiltration.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Michel H

The human rights situation in Russia has clearly worsened recently because of the war, and would probably improve again if the war stopped.

Ukraine and its allies should do their part towards ending this war, in my opinion.

Before the war, Russia was a persecuted country, very badly treated by NATO countries (the same being true for Russian ally Yugoslavia, which has now roughly become Serbia).

In particular, Ukraine and the West shouldn't have imposed sanctions after Russia annexed pro-Russian Crimea, because respect of democracy is an essential principle in today's world.

By the way, you could also ask: "What really is there to respect in the U.S.? (a country which has bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, indirectly gravely persecuted the Palestinians by helping Israel too much, illegally invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, bombed Syria, assassinated an important Iranian general and so on and so on ...)".

If only there were a way for Russia to end the war. What could they do to end it... Real head scratcher there. Can you think of a way?

Eta: as an American guess how many ***** I give if other countries "show respect" to the USA? None. Russia persecuted by the west is so laughingly wrong. It's the polar opposite of reality.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Supposedly they wouldn't do it again (let's hope ...), because they finally feel more respected, and they feel that their main concerns has finally been addressed properly.

We tried that. For thirty years, we tried that. We agreed to turn a blind eye to Moscow's perfidies, same as we do to the perfidies of China, Saudi Arabia, and Israel. In exchange for this, all we asked from Moscow was a minimally-decent trading partner, and a minimally-decent partner for regional peace. Same as we ask from China, Saudi Arabia, and Israel.

But Moscow couldn't even do that much.

The EU wants to trade peacefully with Moscow. Ukraine, as part of the EU, would have traded peacefully with Moscow. NATO wants peace with Moscow. Ukraine, as part of NATO, would have had peace with Moscow.

Instead, Putin chose violence.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

If only there were a way for Russia to end the war. What could they do to end it... Real head scratcher there. Can you think of a way?

It's not so simple, lobosrul5.

If Russia leaves Ukraine completely, there is a good chance that the civil war in Ukraine starts again.

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by Michel H

The human rights situation in Russia has clearly worsened recently because of the war, and would probably improve again if the war stopped.

Ukraine and its allies should do their part towards ending this war, in my opinion.

Before the war, Russia was a persecuted country, very badly treated by NATO countries (the same being true for Russian ally Yugoslavia, which has now roughly become Serbia).

In particular, Ukraine and the West shouldn't have imposed sanctions after Russia annexed pro-Russian Crimea, because respect of democracy is an essential principle in today's world.

By the way, you could also ask: "What really is there to respect in the U.S.? (a country which has bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, indirectly gravely persecuted the Palestinians by helping Israel too much, illegally invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, bombed Syria, assassinated an important Iranian general and so on and so on ...)".

The civil rights were removed from Russians long before this war, so while you may assume they are restored, there is nothing to indicate they will be. (Hint, Ukraine, being in the worse situation managed NOT to oppress its own population).

And it's been mentioned before, Russia complaining about being persecuted because of the sanctions following its naked aggression, including the unilateral and undemocratic annexation of the Crimea is like a criminal complaining about being persecuted after killing someone.

And while I actually agree that there are definitely things where the US is not perfect and I would not want to live there, if I had to choose between the US and Russia I would not even consider Russia a millisecond.

Again, to use an analogy, the US is the neighbor that plays loud music till 4am and ignores you when you complain. Russia is the neighbor where the kids burn cats alive, who dumps garbage in your yard and who beats up anyone they think look at them funny.
Both not fun to live next, but nowhere in the same league of horribleness.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Michel H

In particular, Ukraine and the West shouldn't have imposed sanctions after Russia annexed pro-Russian Crimea, because respect of democracy is an essential principle in today's world.

If "respect of democracy" were actually what you're pushing, Russia invading and annexing Crimea is what you should be condemning, not the sanctions laid upon Russia for Russia's assault upon democracy via utterly undemocratic means. If "respect of democracy" were actually what you were pushing, you would be criticizing Russia for making an utter mockery of democracy with their rigged elections and their fake referendums.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Michel H

It's not so simple, lobosrul5.

If Russia leaves Ukraine completely, there is a good chance that the civil war in Ukraine starts again.

As opposed to the war going on in Ukraine right now? Seems like a return to the pre-2014 hostilities would be a huge improvement for everyone involved, including the separatists. As a person who loves peace, and who prefers the lesser of two evils, you should be the first to demand that Moscow withdraw from Ukraine, and let Ukraine handle its internal conflict itself. Moscow has only made that conflict a hundred times worse, by trying to intervene.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Michel H

It's not so simple, lobosrul5.

If Russia leaves Ukraine completely, there is a good chance that the civil war in Ukraine starts again.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Before the war, Russia was a persecuted country, very badly treated by NATO countries (the same being true for Russian ally Yugoslavia, which has now roughly become Serbia).

This pure manure. Russia has never been persecuted. The neighbouring countries want to leave the Russian sphere of influence because the Russians are threatening them, and wants to lord it over the others.

You see how the Russians quite openly claim that Ukrainians do not exist as a people on equal foot with Russians, but are called “little Russians” and need to have their own language and culture erased.

If Russia had treated their neighbours better, instead of seeing them as subservient to a Russian empire, things might have developed much differently.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Michel H

It's not so simple, lobosrul5.

If Russia leaves Ukraine completely, there is a good chance that the civil war in Ukraine starts again.

If Russia leaves Ukraine completely, their proxy war only superficially disguised as a civil war might continue? Russia's been invading since 2014, after all.

With that said, there's reason to believe that that Russia's withdrawal would likely lead to a relatively swift end to that conflict. Russia's greatly depleted its pawns and literally kidnapped most of the potential replacements to be used as artillery fodder. There's likely neither manpower, nor materiel, nor all that much actual willpower left to continue that.