The Russian Invasion of Ukraine part 8 - Page 2

SpitfireIX · 8th August 2023, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...he_Indian_Army

I'm seeing a LOT of Soviet and Russian flags in the equipment origin column. Especially tanks.

Their Air Force operates Soviet/Russia, French, and home built planes. But they operate more Soviet/Russian than anything else.

It's true I didn't consider armored vehicles, which are mostly Soviet models. However, if you look at tube artillery, which is what the Russians need most, it's mainly 155s and 105s. India's only current Soviet-caliber guns are 130s, which are obsolete. In fact, they've converted almost half of their 130s to 155s.

As for infantry weapons, the Indian Army mainly uses 5.56 at the moment, though they have recently begun reequipping with new 7.62 Soviet assault rifles.

In any case, even apart from the issue of secondary sanctions, I doubt that either China or India are going to be eager to trade away significant amounts of artillery or ammunition, considering the rates of shell consumption we've seen in Ukraine.

lobosrul5 · 8th August 2023, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

It's true I didn't consider armored vehicles, which are mostly Soviet models. However, if you look at tube artillery, which is what the Russians need most, it's mainly 155s and 105s. India's only current Soviet-caliber guns are 130s, which are obsolete. In fact, they've converted almost half of their 130s to 155s.

As for infantry weapons, the Indian Army mainly uses 5.56 at the moment, though they have recently begun reequipping with new 7.62 Soviet assault rifles.

In any case, even apart from the issue of secondary sanctions, I doubt that either China or India are going to be eager to trade away significant amounts of artillery or ammunition, considering the rates of shell consumption we've seen in Ukraine.

For both China and India, their more important trading partner is the West, compounded by the fact that Russia could economically implode at any time.

Also, reading up on India's AF they might be going with a new fighter built in India but designed and licensed by Lockheed. The backbone of their AF right now is the SU-30, but that will change in the coming decade.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/f-21.html

theprestige · 8th August 2023, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

The Ukraine War Has Found the Machinery of Western Governments Wanting
RUSI

The rest of the article is good too

Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth!

Ukraine is allied with a bunch of disparate and often fractious liberal democracies. There is no politically-tenable "fast track" decision-making process for these governments. The same virtues and vices that make these nations supremely capable of giving Ukraine substantial support in its time of need... Those same virtues and vices make these nations slow to decide and slow to act on such matters.

Dark Brandon cannot actually wave a magic wand of dictatorship, and whip western civilization into a frenzy of unquestioning, coordinated blitzkrieg on Ukraine's behalf.

Pretty soon, Ukraine will be joining western Europe in full. And when they do, they won't want it any other way.

TurkeysGhost · 8th August 2023, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth!

Ukraine is allied with a bunch of disparate and often fractious liberal democracies. There is no politically-tenable "fast track" decision-making process for these governments. The same virtues and vices that make these nations supremely capable of giving Ukraine substantial support in its time of need... Those same virtues and vices make these nations slow to decide and slow to act on such matters.

Dark Brandon cannot actually wave a magic wand of dictatorship, and whip western civilization into a frenzy of unquestioning, coordinated blitzkrieg on Ukraine's behalf.

Pretty soon, Ukraine will be joining western Europe in full. And when they do, they won't want it any other way.

Tend to agree. Ukraine should be grateful that the West has enough anti-Russia sentiment to be concerned about their plight at all. It's not like fighting a just war is all it takes to get the West to pull out the wallet

Dr.Sid · 8th August 2023, 10:02 AM

Well .. to large extent the wallet was pulled ages ago. All that tech was built to fight Russians. Now it can do what it was made for. On foreign soil, with foreign soldiers. Win-win.

theprestige · 8th August 2023, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Tend to agree. Ukraine should be grateful that the West has enough anti-Russia sentiment to be concerned about their plight at all. It's not like fighting a just war is all it takes to get the West to pull out the wallet

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Well .. to large extent the wallet was pulled ages ago. All that tech was built to fight Russians. Now it can do what it was made for. On foreign soil, with foreign soldiers. Win-win.

Yep. Not only have we already paid for a lot of the stuff we're now sending to Ukraine, but sending it to fight Moscow is pretty much peak "getting our money's worth".

And I suspect that in some (many? most?) cases it would actually cost us more to decommission and dispose of these weapons, than it does to let Ukraine actually use them. I bet that if the US actually tried to get rid of its cluster munitions stockpile some other way, the effort would get bogged down in a billion dollars' worth of environmental impact reports and lawsuits.

jeremyp · 8th August 2023, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

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I AGREE

Keep on going til #1, you'll like it.

That makes three T-34's we can send back to Russia.

The Tank Museum has also got a T-54.

pzkpfw · 8th August 2023, 02:04 PM

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/08/...aine-invasion/

Quote:

More than 40% of old Soviet tanks and armored vehicles have been removed from Russia’s biggest known military equipment storage base in Buryatia since the invasion of Ukraine began, according to new satellite images analyzed by The Moscow Times.

Much of what's left looks a bit "incomplete", or very old.

steenkh · 8th August 2023, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

At one point in 1941 over 50% of the medium tanks in Russian service were lend lease and the air force relied on Hurricanes as the main fighter.

I am in no position to dispute this, but I am surprised that the lend-lease organisation was able to gear up to that extent when the war in Russia only started in June that year.

Andy_Ross · 8th August 2023, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by steenkh

I am in no position to dispute this, but I am surprised that the lend-lease organisation was able to gear up to that extent when the war in Russia only started in June that year.

Russia lost a huge number of tanks in the first month's of the invasion.

Andy_Ross · 9th August 2023, 04:37 AM

More drone activity over Moscow including

Quote:

One of Russia’s main military optics manufacturers, the Zagorski plant was rocked by a huge explosion that blew up out windows many street blocks away. Cause unknown, but the plant makes optics for missiles and aircraft, as well as night-vision goggles and scopes.

Video in link

https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/...wctrmrvIQ&s=19

Jack by the hedge · 9th August 2023, 04:41 AM

The factory was already on Wikipedia's list of mystery fires that have happened in Russia since they started their war. To have two such smoking accidents is beginning to look like carelessness.

Andy_Ross · 9th August 2023, 04:55 AM

The Russian Federation has lost at least half of its elite airborne forces who were sent to war in Ukraine in 2022.
According to UK MOD post on twitter.
The number is at least 15,000 Russian paratroopers.

Twitter thread here
https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status...TzEIh9Jzw&s=19

a_unique_person · 9th August 2023, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Von Clausewitz has little use for feints, but I think even he would agree that if you're going to make a feint, it should at least draw away some of the forces you are actually fighting, instead of activating fresh forces from an as-yet latent enemy.

Putin is hoping for a response that includes as many dead Belarusians as possible. The crocodile tears will be the best ever.

Mike! · 9th August 2023, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Putin is hoping for a response that includes as many dead Belarusians as possible. The crocodile years will be the best ever.

The Year of the Croc?

a_unique_person · 9th August 2023, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

The Year of the Croc?

Doh. Tears.

gnome · 9th August 2023, 06:38 AM

I'm feeling a kind of satisfaction in noticing the thread's gone to part 8 and Ukraine is still kicking.

Reformed Offlian · 9th August 2023, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

The factory was already on Wikipedia's list of mystery fires that have happened in Russia since they started their war. To have two such smoking accidents is beginning to look like carelessness.

Perhaps, in addition to sending drones to the Ukraine, we should make an exception to sanctions and sell more cigarettes to Russia. Finally, a chance for Big Tobacco to do something good for the world!

a_unique_person · 9th August 2023, 07:26 AM

I can't get over the ruthless destruction of anything of value that Putin indulges in. The human suffering for his vanity project is monstrous.

lobosrul5 · 9th August 2023, 07:32 AM

https://twitter.com/MilitaryLabb/sta...39872827965440

25 Rushkies captured by a Ukrainian raid across the Dnipro, including a Major.

Denys Davidov in his video last night, reported Ukraine looks to have expanded their bridgehead there.

Urozhaine has been partially taken by Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/MilitaryLabb/sta...08877285621761

Andy_Ross · 9th August 2023, 09:09 AM

I saw that report but wasn't going to post until I saw more info. If they have a bridgehead and are able to reinforce it then it's a significant move.

SpitfireIX · 9th August 2023, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by steenkh

I am in no position to dispute this, but I am surprised that the lend-lease organisation was able to gear up to that extent when the war in Russia only started in June that year.

I saw something on this recently. The British were willing to send a lot of their tanks to Russia in 1941 because they knew they'd soon be receiving plenty of Lend-Lease Shermans.

Additionally, the US had begun the process of ramping up production in mid-1940, after the fall of France, although FDR had to tread carefully until after the elections in November of that year.

And speaking of FDR, I've read that in 1941 his advisers were worried that he was Lend-Leasing so much materiel to the Allies that there wouldn't be enough left for the rapid expansion of the US armed forces then occurring.

lobosrul5 · 9th August 2023, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

I saw something on this recently. The British were willing to send a lot of their tanks to Russia in 1941 because they knew they'd soon be receiving plenty of Lend-Lease Shermans.

Additionally, the US had begun the process of ramping up production in mid-1940, after the fall of France, although FDR had to tread carefully until after the elections in November of that year.

And speaking of FDR, I've read that in 1941 his advisers were worried that he was Lend-Leasing so much materiel to the Allies that there wouldn't be enough left for the rapid expansion of the US armed forces then occurring.

Interesting... in 1941 the Sherman hadn't even entered production, the first prototype was completed in Sept '41. We were producing Lees/Grants... which I always though of as basically the worst tank ever. After watching some Chieftan and Tank Museum videos it actually wasn't too terrible for 1941/2.

Looking at lend-lease numbers of British tanks to the USSR, not many got to the front until very late 1941, and they were pretty damned inadequate models to take on Pz3's and 4's.

Andy_Ross · 9th August 2023, 10:58 AM

Sky News reports that Russia says it's going to move forces to its western borders to counter the growing threat from NATO forces massing there.

lobosrul5 · 9th August 2023, 11:06 AM

Ooops wrong thread.

ETA: but instead of wasting this post... lol what. What is Russia going to move to "counter a NATO" threat?! 2 companies of mobiks with shovels?

jimbob · 9th August 2023, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

Belarus has begun military exercises near its border with Poland and Lithuania.
Both countries have moved forces to the border regions and are expecting provocations. NATO forces in the Forward Presence Battalions are also on increased readiness.

Von Clausewitz has little use for feints, but I think even he would agree that if you're going to make a feint, it should at least draw away some of the forces you are actually fighting, instead of activating fresh forces from an as-yet latent enemy.

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

Sky News reports that Russia says it's going to move forces to its western borders to counter the growing threat from NATO forces massing there.

With the addition that one really shouldn't tie up more of your forces than the enemy.

Originally Posted by gnome

I'm feeling a kind of satisfaction in noticing the thread's gone to part 8 and Ukraine is still kicking.

Yup

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

Perhaps, in addition to sending drones to the Ukraine, we should make an exception to sanctions and sell more cigarettes to Russia. Finally, a chance for Big Tobacco to do something good for the world!

Nice one

jimbob · 9th August 2023, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

Belarus has begun military exercises near its border with Poland and Lithuania.
Both countries have moved forces to the border regions and are expecting provocations. NATO forces in the Forward Presence Battalions are also on increased readiness.

Interesting take on this.

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I AGREE

Wagner being there is a way to keep it away from advancing on Moscow.

dudalb · 9th August 2023, 01:42 PM

SO far lost of rhetoric from Putin about the West, but little in the way of action.

dudalb · 9th August 2023, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Ooops wrong thread.

ETA: but instead of wasting this post... lol what. What is Russia going to move to "counter a NATO" threat?! 2 companies of mobiks with shovels?

That is his problem; he sort of out of symbolic gestures;anything he does would be a major escalation.
And,yes, Wagner attacking a Nato member would be a major escalation.

The Don · 9th August 2023, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

Sky News reports that Russia says it's going to move forces to its western borders to counter the growing threat from NATO forces massing there.

I wonder what forces these would be.

I thought that the Russian Army was already completely overstretched in Ukraine.

quadraginta · 9th August 2023, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

I wonder what forces these would be.

I thought that the Russian Army was already completely overstretched in Ukraine.

They probably have women, children, and the elderly they haven't mobilized ... yet.

MarkCorrigan · 9th August 2023, 02:55 PM

It's probably going to be mobiks, or the builder units where all the useless troops get sidelined to.

Reformed Offlian · 9th August 2023, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

They probably have women, children, and the elderly they haven't mobilized ... yet.

Or, if Putin *really* gets desperate, Russians from the major cities with actual friends.

kookbreaker · 9th August 2023, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Ooops wrong thread.

ETA: but instead of wasting this post... lol what. What is Russia going to move to "counter a NATO" threat?! 2 companies of mobiks with shovels?

They might have farm tractors!*

* This joke is already old.

dudalb · 9th August 2023, 03:41 PM

Finland is basically strenghting it's border protection on the Russian Border. They are taking no chances.

Doubt · 9th August 2023, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Interesting... in 1941 the Sherman hadn't even entered production, the first prototype was completed in Sept '41. We were producing Lees/Grants... which I always though of as basically the worst tank ever. After watching some Chieftan and Tank Museum videos it actually wasn't too terrible for 1941/2.

Looking at lend-lease numbers of British tanks to the USSR, not many got to the front until very late 1941, and they were pretty damned inadequate models to take on Pz3's and 4's.

The Sherman got stuck on the drawing board because the army wanted a cast turret and the technology had not caught up to the demand for the bigger turret yet. An earlier Sherman would have had a lot of the same assembly issues as the Grant/Lee tanks. Bolts instead of welds.

Doubt · 9th August 2023, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Andy_Ross

The Russian Federation has lost at least half of its elite airborne forces who were sent to war in Ukraine in 2022.
According to UK MOD post on twitter.
The number is at least 15,000 Russian paratroopers.

Twitter thread here
https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status...TzEIh9Jzw&s=19

Well, that explains why they have not been seen much since the initial assault. Of course, given how long the war has taken, they could have started a serious rebuilding effort if they were not just throwing poorly trained conscripts into the fight.

Gulliver Foyle · 10th August 2023, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

It's probably going to be mobiks, or the builder units where all the useless troops get sidelined to.

Bet you it's going to be the batallions made up of politicians' and oligarchs' sons that used be stationed around Belgorod and Novorossiysk up until a few months ago.

lobosrul5 · 10th August 2023, 07:58 AM

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...sians-approach

Ukraine has placed a mandatory evacuation order to all civilians in Kharkiv Oblast near Kupiansk.

The Russians have created an offensive group consisting of eight "Storm-Z assault units" to take Kupiansk, Colonel-General Oleksandr Syrskyi, Commander of the Ground Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, told Ukrainska Pravda Wednesday.

Internet speculation is that Ukraine will allow Russia to take some ground... so they can hit them out in the open with cluster munitions.

theprestige · 10th August 2023, 09:36 AM

Engage the enemy in a decisive battle, at a time and place of your choosing. What's interesting is that both sides kind of have to play along. Is Moscow committing its main strength in Kupiansk? If so, is it because Ukraine's shaping operations have forced Moscow to make a move that gives Ukraine the upper hand in the ensuing contest? Or is Moscow's move intended to force Ukraine into a battle on terms more convenient to the invader?

8th August 2023, 09:34 AM	#41
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,934	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...he_Indian_Army I'm seeing a LOT of Soviet and Russian flags in the equipment origin column. Especially tanks. Their Air Force operates Soviet/Russia, French, and home built planes. But they operate more Soviet/Russian than anything else. It's true I didn't consider armored vehicles, which are mostly Soviet models. However, if you look at tube artillery, which is what the Russians need most, it's mainly 155s and 105s. India's only current Soviet-caliber guns are 130s, which are obsolete. In fact, they've converted almost half of their 130s to 155s. As for infantry weapons, the Indian Army mainly uses 5.56 at the moment, though they have recently begun reequipping with new 7.62 Soviet assault rifles. In any case, even apart from the issue of secondary sanctions, I doubt that either China or India are going to be eager to trade away significant amounts of artillery or ammunition, considering the rates of shell consumption we've seen in Ukraine.
	__________________ "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz

8th August 2023, 09:38 AM	#42
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,070	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX It's true I didn't consider armored vehicles, which are mostly Soviet models. However, if you look at tube artillery, which is what the Russians need most, it's mainly 155s and 105s. India's only current Soviet-caliber guns are 130s, which are obsolete. In fact, they've converted almost half of their 130s to 155s. As for infantry weapons, the Indian Army mainly uses 5.56 at the moment, though they have recently begun reequipping with new 7.62 Soviet assault rifles. In any case, even apart from the issue of secondary sanctions, I doubt that either China or India are going to be eager to trade away significant amounts of artillery or ammunition, considering the rates of shell consumption we've seen in Ukraine. For both China and India, their more important trading partner is the West, compounded by the fact that Russia could economically implode at any time. Also, reading up on India's AF they might be going with a new fighter built in India but designed and licensed by Lockheed. The backbone of their AF right now is the SU-30, but that will change in the coming decade. https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/f-21.html
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,070

8th August 2023, 09:43 AM	#43
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 65,862	Originally Posted by jimbob The Ukraine War Has Found the Machinery of Western Governments Wanting RUSI The rest of the article is good too Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth! Ukraine is allied with a bunch of disparate and often fractious liberal democracies. There is no politically-tenable "fast track" decision-making process for these governments. The same virtues and vices that make these nations supremely capable of giving Ukraine substantial support in its time of need... Those same virtues and vices make these nations slow to decide and slow to act on such matters. Dark Brandon cannot actually wave a magic wand of dictatorship, and whip western civilization into a frenzy of unquestioning, coordinated blitzkrieg on Ukraine's behalf. Pretty soon, Ukraine will be joining western Europe in full. And when they do, they won't want it any other way.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

8th August 2023, 09:46 AM	#44
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 34,390	Originally Posted by theprestige Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth! Ukraine is allied with a bunch of disparate and often fractious liberal democracies. There is no politically-tenable "fast track" decision-making process for these governments. The same virtues and vices that make these nations supremely capable of giving Ukraine substantial support in its time of need... Those same virtues and vices make these nations slow to decide and slow to act on such matters. Dark Brandon cannot actually wave a magic wand of dictatorship, and whip western civilization into a frenzy of unquestioning, coordinated blitzkrieg on Ukraine's behalf. Pretty soon, Ukraine will be joining western Europe in full. And when they do, they won't want it any other way. Tend to agree. Ukraine should be grateful that the West has enough anti-Russia sentiment to be concerned about their plight at all. It's not like fighting a just war is all it takes to get the West to pull out the wallet
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

8th August 2023, 10:09 AM	#46
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 65,862	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Tend to agree. Ukraine should be grateful that the West has enough anti-Russia sentiment to be concerned about their plight at all. It's not like fighting a just war is all it takes to get the West to pull out the wallet Originally Posted by Dr.Sid Well .. to large extent the wallet was pulled ages ago. All that tech was built to fight Russians. Now it can do what it was made for. On foreign soil, with foreign soldiers. Win-win. Yep. Not only have we already paid for a lot of the stuff we're now sending to Ukraine, but sending it to fight Moscow is pretty much peak "getting our money's worth". And I suspect that in some (many? most?) cases it would actually cost us more to decommission and dispose of these weapons, than it does to let Ukraine actually use them. I bet that if the US actually tried to get rid of its cluster munitions stockpile some other way, the effort would get bogged down in a billion dollars' worth of environmental impact reports and lawsuits.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

8th August 2023, 10:02 AM	#45
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,371	Well .. to large extent the wallet was pulled ages ago. All that tech was built to fight Russians. Now it can do what it was made for. On foreign soil, with foreign soldiers. Win-win.

8th August 2023, 02:04 PM	#48
pzkpfw Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 226	https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/08/...aine-invasion/ Quote: More than 40% of old Soviet tanks and armored vehicles have been removed from Russia’s biggest known military equipment storage base in Buryatia since the invasion of Ukraine began, according to new satellite images analyzed by The Moscow Times. Much of what's left looks a bit "incomplete", or very old.
pzkpfw Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 226

8th August 2023, 11:12 PM	#49
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,012	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross At one point in 1941 over 50% of the medium tanks in Russian service were lend lease and the air force relied on Hurricanes as the main fighter. I am in no position to dispute this, but I am surprised that the lend-lease organisation was able to gear up to that extent when the war in Russia only started in June that year.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

8th August 2023, 11:28 PM	#50
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 45,318	Originally Posted by steenkh I am in no position to dispute this, but I am surprised that the lend-lease organisation was able to gear up to that extent when the war in Russia only started in June that year. Russia lost a huge number of tanks in the first month's of the invasion.
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

9th August 2023, 04:37 AM	#51
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 45,318	More drone activity over Moscow including Quote: One of Russia’s main military optics manufacturers, the Zagorski plant was rocked by a huge explosion that blew up out windows many street blocks away. Cause unknown, but the plant makes optics for missiles and aircraft, as well as night-vision goggles and scopes. Video in link https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/...wctrmrvIQ&s=19
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop Last edited by Andy_Ross; 9th August 2023 at 04:39 AM.

9th August 2023, 04:41 AM	#52
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 15,388	The factory was already on Wikipedia's list of mystery fires that have happened in Russia since they started their war. To have two such smoking accidents is beginning to look like carelessness.

9th August 2023, 04:55 AM	#53
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 45,318	The Russian Federation has lost at least half of its elite airborne forces who were sent to war in Ukraine in 2022. According to UK MOD post on twitter. The number is at least 15,000 Russian paratroopers. Twitter thread here https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status...TzEIh9Jzw&s=19
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

9th August 2023, 05:08 AM	#54
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 45,710	Originally Posted by theprestige Von Clausewitz has little use for feints, but I think even he would agree that if you're going to make a feint, it should at least draw away some of the forces you are actually fighting, instead of activating fresh forces from an as-yet latent enemy. Putin is hoping for a response that includes as many dead Belarusians as possible. The crocodile tears will be the best ever.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos Last edited by a_unique_person; 9th August 2023 at 05:21 AM.

9th August 2023, 05:12 AM	#55
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 51,514	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Putin is hoping for a response that includes as many dead Belarusians as possible. The crocodile years will be the best ever. The Year of the Croc?
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

9th August 2023, 05:21 AM	#56
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 45,710	Originally Posted by Mike! The Year of the Croc? Doh. Tears.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

9th August 2023, 06:38 AM	#57
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,251	I'm feeling a kind of satisfaction in noticing the thread's gone to part 8 and Ukraine is still kicking.
	__________________

9th August 2023, 07:24 AM	#58
Reformed Offlian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: USA Posts: 1,203	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge The factory was already on Wikipedia's list of mystery fires that have happened in Russia since they started their war. To have two such smoking accidents is beginning to look like carelessness. Perhaps, in addition to sending drones to the Ukraine, we should make an exception to sanctions and sell more cigarettes to Russia. Finally, a chance for Big Tobacco to do something good for the world!

9th August 2023, 07:26 AM	#59
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 45,710	I can't get over the ruthless destruction of anything of value that Putin indulges in. The human suffering for his vanity project is monstrous.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

9th August 2023, 07:32 AM	#60
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,070	https://twitter.com/MilitaryLabb/sta...39872827965440 25 Rushkies captured by a Ukrainian raid across the Dnipro, including a Major. Denys Davidov in his video last night, reported Ukraine looks to have expanded their bridgehead there. Urozhaine has been partially taken by Ukraine. https://twitter.com/MilitaryLabb/sta...08877285621761
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,070

9th August 2023, 09:09 AM	#61
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 45,318	I saw that report but wasn't going to post until I saw more info. If they have a bridgehead and are able to reinforce it then it's a significant move.
	__________________ Formerly known as Captain Swoop

9th August 2023, 09:58 AM	#62
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,934	Originally Posted by steenkh I am in no position to dispute this, but I am surprised that the lend-lease organisation was able to gear up to that extent when the war in Russia only started in June that year. I saw something on this recently. The British were willing to send a lot of their tanks to Russia in 1941 because they knew they'd soon be receiving plenty of Lend-Lease Shermans. Additionally, the US had begun the process of ramping up production in mid-1940, after the fall of France, although FDR had to tread carefully until after the elections in November of that year. And speaking of FDR, I've read that in 1941 his advisers were worried that he was Lend-Leasing so much materiel to the Allies that there wouldn't be enough left for the rapid expansion of the US armed forces then occurring.
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9th August 2023, 10:03 AM	#63
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,070	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX I saw something on this recently. The British were willing to send a lot of their tanks to Russia in 1941 because they knew they'd soon be receiving plenty of Lend-Lease Shermans. Additionally, the US had begun the process of ramping up production in mid-1940, after the fall of France, although FDR had to tread carefully until after the elections in November of that year. And speaking of FDR, I've read that in 1941 his advisers were worried that he was Lend-Leasing so much materiel to the Allies that there wouldn't be enough left for the rapid expansion of the US armed forces then occurring. Interesting... in 1941 the Sherman hadn't even entered production, the first prototype was completed in Sept '41. We were producing Lees/Grants... which I always though of as basically the worst tank ever. After watching some Chieftan and Tank Museum videos it actually wasn't too terrible for 1941/2. Looking at lend-lease numbers of British tanks to the USSR, not many got to the front until very late 1941, and they were pretty damned inadequate models to take on Pz3's and 4's.
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9th August 2023, 10:58 AM	#64
Andy_Ross Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 45,318	Sky News reports that Russia says it's going to move forces to its western borders to counter the growing threat from NATO forces massing there.
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9th August 2023, 11:06 AM	#65
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,070	Ooops wrong thread. ETA: but instead of wasting this post... lol what. What is Russia going to move to "counter a NATO" threat?! 2 companies of mobiks with shovels?
lobosrul5 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6,070	Last edited by lobosrul5; 9th August 2023 at 11:09 AM.

9th August 2023, 11:14 AM	#66
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 30,979	Originally Posted by theprestige Originally Posted by Andy_Ross Belarus has begun military exercises near its border with Poland and Lithuania. Both countries have moved forces to the border regions and are expecting provocations. NATO forces in the Forward Presence Battalions are also on increased readiness. Von Clausewitz has little use for feints, but I think even he would agree that if you're going to make a feint, it should at least draw away some of the forces you are actually fighting, instead of activating fresh forces from an as-yet latent enemy. Originally Posted by Andy_Ross Sky News reports that Russia says it's going to move forces to its western borders to counter the growing threat from NATO forces massing there. With the addition that one really shouldn't tie up more of your forces than the enemy. Originally Posted by gnome I'm feeling a kind of satisfaction in noticing the thread's gone to part 8 and Ukraine is still kicking. Yup Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian Perhaps, in addition to sending drones to the Ukraine, we should make an exception to sanctions and sell more cigarettes to Russia. Finally, a chance for Big Tobacco to do something good for the world! Nice one
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK Last edited by jimbob; 9th August 2023 at 12:05 PM. Reason: Wrong quote in the wrong place

9th August 2023, 01:42 PM	#68
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 59,303	SO far lost of rhetoric from Putin about the West, but little in the way of action.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

9th August 2023, 01:44 PM	#69
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 59,303	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Ooops wrong thread. ETA: but instead of wasting this post... lol what. What is Russia going to move to "counter a NATO" threat?! 2 companies of mobiks with shovels? That is his problem; he sort of out of symbolic gestures;anything he does would be a major escalation. And,yes, Wagner attacking a Nato member would be a major escalation.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

9th August 2023, 02:22 PM	#70
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,950	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross Sky News reports that Russia says it's going to move forces to its western borders to counter the growing threat from NATO forces massing there. I wonder what forces these would be. I thought that the Russian Army was already completely overstretched in Ukraine.

9th August 2023, 02:30 PM	#71
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 27,259	Originally Posted by The Don I wonder what forces these would be. I thought that the Russian Army was already completely overstretched in Ukraine. They probably have women, children, and the elderly they haven't mobilized ... yet.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

9th August 2023, 02:55 PM	#72
MarkCorrigan ¡No pasarán! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Слава Україні Posts: 12,394	It's probably going to be mobiks, or the builder units where all the useless troops get sidelined to.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara

9th August 2023, 03:07 PM	#73
Reformed Offlian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: USA Posts: 1,203	Originally Posted by quadraginta They probably have women, children, and the elderly they haven't mobilized ... yet. Or, if Putin really gets desperate, Russians from the major cities with actual friends.

9th August 2023, 03:14 PM	#74
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,648	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Ooops wrong thread. ETA: but instead of wasting this post... lol what. What is Russia going to move to "counter a NATO" threat?! 2 companies of mobiks with shovels? They might have farm tractors!* * This joke is already old.
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9th August 2023, 03:41 PM	#75
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 59,303	Finland is basically strenghting it's border protection on the Russian Border. They are taking no chances.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

9th August 2023, 05:03 PM	#76
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 7,958	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Interesting... in 1941 the Sherman hadn't even entered production, the first prototype was completed in Sept '41. We were producing Lees/Grants... which I always though of as basically the worst tank ever. After watching some Chieftan and Tank Museum videos it actually wasn't too terrible for 1941/2. Looking at lend-lease numbers of British tanks to the USSR, not many got to the front until very late 1941, and they were pretty damned inadequate models to take on Pz3's and 4's. The Sherman got stuck on the drawing board because the army wanted a cast turret and the technology had not caught up to the demand for the bigger turret yet. An earlier Sherman would have had a lot of the same assembly issues as the Grant/Lee tanks. Bolts instead of welds.
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 7,958	__________________ 45 es un titere

9th August 2023, 05:06 PM	#77
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 7,958	Originally Posted by Andy_Ross The Russian Federation has lost at least half of its elite airborne forces who were sent to war in Ukraine in 2022. According to UK MOD post on twitter. The number is at least 15,000 Russian paratroopers. Twitter thread here https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status...TzEIh9Jzw&s=19 Well, that explains why they have not been seen much since the initial assault. Of course, given how long the war has taken, they could have started a serious rebuilding effort if they were not just throwing poorly trained conscripts into the fight.
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 7,958	__________________ 45 es un titere