Liberals turn on New Mexico governor over gun suspension - Page 4

plague311 · 14th September 2023, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I have faith that if the politicians in NY and CT truly believed that concealed carry permits were a bad and dangerous thing, they would have worked hard to make it virtually impossible to obtain one, pre-Bruen. But they didn't.

Honestly I trust their judgment on this issue more than I trust yours.

This is a fallacy. "Liberal states have this, therefor it can't be bad" is such a ******* stupid argument to make. Who cares if certain states have conceal carry, what the **** does it have to do with this? For a closet conservative that bitches about "getting back to the OP", you should stick to it yourself.

..or did the subject of the thread change to "dog **** fallacies I come up with when bored" and I missed it?

Donal · 14th September 2023, 02:09 PM

I trust her judgement more than I trust yours. Mainly because she knows what her job title is.

And again, this weird right-wing need to put everything in terms of cartoonish patriotism and "winning". The Constitution will "prevail" no matter what the final decision is. Either she has the right to do so under the Constitution and Nevada law or she doesn't. That's what the law suit is for.

Hercules56 · 14th September 2023, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

This is a fallacy. "Liberal states have this, therefor it can't be bad" is such a ******* stupid argument to make. Who cares if certain states have conceal carry, what the **** does it have to do with this? For a closet conservative that bitches about "getting back to the OP", you should stick to it yourself.

..or did the subject of the thread change to "dog **** fallacies I come up with when bored" and I missed it?

Do you think the Governor will appeal?

Or will she see the writing on the wall?

Hercules56 · 14th September 2023, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Donal

I trust her judgement more than I trust yours. Mainly because she knows what her job title is.

And again, this weird right-wing need to put everything in terms of cartoonish patriotism and "winning". The Constitution will "prevail" no matter what the final decision is. Either she has the right to do so under the Constitution and Nevada law or she doesn't. That's what the law suit is for.

The governor thinks one can use a made up emergency to suspend constitutional rights.

And you trust such a stance.

Huh... I guess that is what people call a benevolent dictatorship.

MarkCorrigan · 14th September 2023, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

That's why its good that New Mexico lets citizens defend themselves. Otherwise they would have to wait for police who will arrive long after the crime is committed.

Why does this have to be a gun?

Why not pepper spray? Why not something else? Why must it be with a gun?

This is what I don't get, the assumption from Americans that there's nothing between "You can't defend yourself!" and "Defend yourself with a lethal firearm".

Your country is nuts on this issue. No one else sees the need to defend themselves with a handgun, let alone one that's carried concealed. Absolute madness.

Hercules56 · 14th September 2023, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Why does this have to be a gun?

Why not pepper spray? Why not something else? Why must it be with a gun?

This is what I don't get, the assumption from Americans that there's nothing between "You can't defend yourself!" and "Defend yourself with a lethal firearm".

Your country is nuts on this issue. No one else sees the need to defend themselves with a handgun, let alone one that's carried concealed. Absolute madness.

We have crime problems that many other nations do not. USA can be a scary place.

Lurch · 14th September 2023, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

We have crime problems that many other nations do not. USA can be a scary place.

What are these unique problems that make the US a "scary place?"

Do you have a higher rate of mental illness? A less civil populace? A notable lack of morals? More people that are drunk and high? Are there more pollutants that lead to cognitive and developmental defects? Is the nation poorer than most? Are the people lacking in education and the means to learn?

Or is it simply a society that has an outsized number of violent criminals?

Or, reading more closely still into your comment...

Is it the number of people of color that makes the US a "scary place" requiring the 'non-scary' people to pack heat?

Hercules56 · 14th September 2023, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Lurch

What are these unique problems that make the US a "scary place?"

Do you have a higher rate of mental illness? A less civil populace? A notable lack of morals? More people that are drunk and high? Are there more pollutants that lead to cognitive and developmental defects? Is the nation poorer than most? Are the people lacking in education and the means to learn?

Or is it simply a society that has an outsized number of violent criminals?

Or, reading more closely still into your comment...

Is it the number of people of color that makes the US a "scary place" requiring the 'non-scary' people to pack heat?

Sigh..

Do you think the governor will appeal the judges decision?

Stacyhs · 14th September 2023, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Yes it's very sad that some parts of this country has such high crime that people feel the need to protect themselves with a firearm. If we could deal with socioeconomic problems and crime in a much better way we wouldn't have this situation.

But unfortunately in many parts of this country you simply cannot rely on the police to protect you in a moment's notice. The choice is to either accept that you will be a victim, possibly multiple times or try to defend yourself.

That's an excuse. People say they carry one for protection but according to Pew Research, 85% of people who own a gun have never had to use it for protection:

Quote:

Roughly one-in-seven adults who own or have owned a gun (15%) say they have fired or threatened to fire a gun to defend themselves, their family or their possessions.

It's a cultural thing in many parts of the country; owning a gun is the norm, especially among men.

Quote:

Geographically, gun ownership is less concentrated in the Northeast than in other regions in the country, and there is a vast urban-rural divide across regions. Among adults who live in rural areas, 46% say they own a gun. By comparison, 28% of adults who live in the suburbs and even fewer – 19% – in urban areas own a gun.

I guess those rural areas are just rife with crime compared to those urban areas where crime is supposed to be so rampant.

Quote:

Many American gun owners exist in a social context where gun ownership is the norm. Roughly half of all gun owners (49%) say that all or most of their friends own guns. In stark contrast, among those who don’t own a gun, only one-in-ten say that all or most of their friends own guns.

Experience with guns starts relatively early particularly for those who grew up in a gun-owning household. Men who grew up in a household with guns and who have ever shot a gun report that they first fired a gun when they were, on average, 12 years old. Among women who grew up in gun-owning households and who have ever shot a gun, the average age at which they first fired a gun is 17. Men tend to become gun owners at an earlier age than women: 19 years old, on average, vs. 27 years old for women.

Quote:

A majority of gun owners (66%) own multiple firearms, and about three-quarters (73%) say they could never see themselves not owning a gun.

How many guns does one need for 'protection'? That 73% say they will always own a gun more than suggests it's a cultural thing, not a 'protection' thing.

Quote:

One key and defining characteristic of gun owners is the extent to which they associate the right to own guns with their own personal sense of freedom – 74% of gun owners say this right is essential, compared with only 35% of non-gun owners who say the same.

While the right to own guns is highly valued by most gun owners, not all gun owners see gun ownership the same way. Half of all gun owners say owning a gun is important to their overall identity

The US has a gun culture and that is what has got to change before there can be any solution to our horrendous numbers of gun deaths.

William Parcher · 14th September 2023, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

That's an excuse. People say they carry one for protection but according to Pew Research, 85% of people who own a gun have never had to use it for protection:

Quote:

Roughly one-in-seven adults who own or have owned a gun (15%) say they have fired or threatened to fire a gun to defend themselves, their family or their possessions.

I'm surprised it's as high as 15%. That's significant. Guns are getting a lot of use in defense.

Stacyhs · 14th September 2023, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Nobody is telling you to carry a gun. If it makes you feel uncomfortable or frightened then don't do it. Wait for the police to come protect you.

But other people are willing to do the background check and training so that they can protect themselves in public with a concealed firearm. If liberal states like New York and Connecticut allow such a thing then it cannot be as evil as you say.

What scares me are people with guns who get pissed off because someone accidentally cuts them off on the freeway:

Quote:

Using Gun Violence Archive’s database to analyze road rage incidents, Everytown Research & Policy found that the number of road rage injuries and deaths involving guns has increased every year since 2018. In that year, at least 70 road rage shooting deaths occurred in the United States; in 2022, the number doubled to 141. The same trend occurred with gun injuries: at least 176 people were injured in a road rage incident in 2018, with a staggering increase to 413 people in 2022. These incidents translate to a person being shot and either injured or killed in a road rage incident in 2022 every 16 hours, on average.

Or because their neighbors are playing music too loud:

Quote:

A man was charged with first-degree murder Monday after witnesses said a 9-year-old Chicago girl riding a scooter was fatally shot by someone upset over noise.

Or because someone doesn't like where his neighbor put his trash cans:

Quote:

A man shot and killed his neighbor yesterday following an argument over the placement of trash cans on garbage day.

Or because someone shoveled snow into his yard:

Quote:

A feuding neighbor shot a couple with a handgun before fetching an AR-15-style rifle from his home to kill them, after an apparent argument over the couple shoveling snow into his yard.

Stacyhs · 14th September 2023, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

I'm surprised it's as high as 15%. That's significant. Guns are getting a lot of use in defense.

Notice that 15% includes people who have only "threatened" someone with a gun over their possessions. That is not 'self-defense'.

"Drop that bike or I'm gonna shoot your ass!"

Stacyhs · 14th September 2023, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

If concealed carry is such a terrible thing, why do very Liberal states like NY have such programs with tens of thousands of folks walking around in public with concealed firearms? Can't be that evil if even NY does it.

You are aware that this SC struck down NY's concealed carry law, aren't you?

Quote:

The Supreme Court has struck down New York’s century-old law restricting the carrying of concealed firearms, its first major Second Amendment decision in more than a decade and a ruling that could lead to more guns on the streets.

Writing for the 6-3 majority, Justice Clarence Thomas said Thursday that the law’s requirement of New Yorkers who want a permit to carry a handgun in public to show “proper cause” that the weapon is specifically needed for self-defense “violates the Fourteenth Amendment by preventing law-abiding citizens with ordinary self-defense needs from exercising their right to keep and bear arms in public.”

William Parcher · 14th September 2023, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Notice that 15% includes people who have only "threatened" someone with a gun over their possessions. That is not 'self-defense'.

"Drop that bike or I'm gonna shoot your ass!"

Defense of self, others or property. That's a significant percentage.

Hercules56 · 14th September 2023, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

You are aware that this SC struck down NY's concealed carry law, aren't you?

No, get your facts straight. They only struck down the provision requiring a special need for protection. But many counties in the state were allowing people to get concealed Carry permits due to the judges' discretion as to what counts as "special need". Rural counties were basically allowing anyone to get a concealed carry permit as long as they could fulfill all of the other requirements, while in the cities the "special need" requirement was strictly enforced.

Stacyhs · 14th September 2023, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

No, get your facts straight. They only struck down the provision requiring a special need for protection.

Um...read for comprehension. I quoted exactly what they struck down so I got my facts 'straight'.

[quote=Hercules56;14162696]But many counties in the state were allowing people to get concealed Carry permits due to the judges' discretion as to what counts as "special need". Rural counties were basically allowing anyone to get a concealed carry permit as long as they could fulfill all of the other requirements, while in the cities the "special need" requirement was strictly enforced.https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/16/trump-administration-broke-law-in-withholding-ukraine-aid.html

Rural counties in NY are mostly RED counties so that's no surprise.

Stacyhs · 14th September 2023, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Defense of self, others or property. That's a significant percentage.

Read my post again but for comprehension this time.

William Parcher · 14th September 2023, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Read my post again but for comprehension this time.

Read mine again. 15% is a significant percentage.

dirtywick · 14th September 2023, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Lurch

What are these unique problems that make the US a "scary place?"

all the guns

Stacyhs · 14th September 2023, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Read mine again. 15% is a significant percentage.

I'll say it once more for your benefit. If you still don't understand, I can't help you:
Notice that 15% includes people who have only "threatened" someone with a gun over their possessions. That is not 'self-defense'.

dirtywick · 14th September 2023, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

How many guns does one need for 'protection'? That 73% say they will always own a gun more than suggests it's a cultural thing, not a 'protection' thing.

every gun nut i know is a hunter. not every hunter i know is a gun nut, but the gun nuts and the non gun nuts all like using a bunch of different guns for hunting.

Stacyhs · 14th September 2023, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

every gun nut i know is a hunter. not every hunter i know is a gun nut, but the gun nuts and the non gun nuts all like using a bunch of different guns for hunting.

My BIL is a gun nut. He's never hunted in his life, never had to use a gun for protection. Still, he has several pistols and rifles.

Hunters overwhelmingly use rifles, not pistols, and don't carry rifles on their hips to Walmart for 'protection'.

dirtywick · 14th September 2023, 06:59 PM

well, yeah, those are the gun nuts doing that.

my point is a lot of the data, the suburban and rural guys with multiple guns that can't see themselves never owning one, describes every hunter i've ever met.

and hunters most definitely own pistols lol

Stacyhs · 14th September 2023, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

well, yeah, those are the gun nuts doing that.

my point is a lot of the data, the suburban and rural guys with multiple guns that can't see themselves never owning one, describes every hunter i've ever met.

and hunters most definitely own pistols lol

To hunt with?

Reformed Offlian · 14th September 2023, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I'll say it once more for your benefit. If you still don't understand, I can't help you:
Notice that 15% includes people who have only "threatened" someone with a gun over their possessions. That is not 'self-defense'.

I don't know what the disconnect between you and William Parcher is, but I think I see his point. 15% of gun owners have, by their own admission, at very least threatened to shoot somebody with them at some point. That is a frighteningly high number. One in six people say they have been in confrontations where they might have shot somebody had things gone just a little differently? Yikes.

Stacyhs · 14th September 2023, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

I don't know what the disconnect between you and William Parcher is, but I think I see his point. 15% of gun owners have, by their own admission, at very least threatened to shoot somebody with them at some point. That is a frighteningly high number. One in six people say they have been in confrontations where they might have shot somebody had things gone just a little differently? Yikes.

The way I'm seeing it is that Parcher thinks 15% of gun owners have had to use their guns for self-protection. That's not true when you consider that threatening someone with a gun over possessions is not 'self-defense'.

And it's one in seven, not six.

dirtywick · 14th September 2023, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

To hunt with?

probably just target shooting. they take them home and to the range. they also don't carry them to wal mart. they're not afraid going there, they're afraid of black people in chicago.

Hercules56 · 15th September 2023, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Um...read for comprehension. I quoted exactly what they struck down so I got my facts 'straight'.

But many counties in the state were allowing people to get concealed Carry permits due to the judges' discretion as to what counts as "special need". Rural counties were basically allowing anyone to get a concealed carry permit as long as they could fulfill all of the other requirements, while in the cities the "special need" requirement was strictly enforced.https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/16/trump-administration-broke-law-in-withholding-ukraine-aid.html

Rural counties in NY are mostly RED counties so that's no surprise.

You're incorrect. Again.

NY's CCW law was not struck down, only one part of it was. The rest of it and the majority of the law was held to be constitutional.

New York can still require "Good Guy references", training, financial info, etc in order to decide whether someone is approved for the permit. Supreme Court did not strike those rules nor did they even consider them. Supreme Court only considered whether the Sullivan Law was legal, and that law requires a "proper cause" in order to have a concealed carry permit. But as you clearly know each county was given the discretion as to how to enforce the proper cause provision, or whether to enforce it at all.

For the most part New York State was mostly "Shall Issue" rural counties with a few "May Issue" urban counties mixed between them.

plague311 · 15th September 2023, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

The way I'm seeing it is that Parcher thinks 15% of gun owners have had to use their guns for self-protection. That's not true when you consider that threatening someone with a gun over possessions is not 'self-defense'.

And it's one in seven, not six.

On top of that, in my opinion, it's a bull **** stat anyway. The individual making the claim that they've used their weapon, or the threat of it, to protect themselves requires abso-*******-lutely no evidence to support it. It's literally nothing more than asking some gun toting douche, "Have you ever had to use your gun for self-defense?" and them saying, "Yup, I done did it just yesterday!"

At best I'd maybe guess 50% of those are true. It's a loaded question.

plague311 · 15th September 2023, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Do you think the Governor will appeal?

I don't care.

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Or will she see the writing on the wall?

I don't ******* care.

bruto · 15th September 2023, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

The governor thinks one can use a made up emergency to suspend constitutional rights.

And you trust such a stance.

Huh... I guess that is what people call a benevolent dictatorship.

You might well dispute the extent of the emergency or the solution, but are you really trying to suggest that it's imaginary? Are people not getting shot? Is being shot to death not, in some fairly elementary way, a matter of public health?

Even if it's misguided, I don't think this is "what people call a benevolent dictatorship." It does however sound like what Fox News would call it.

Hercules56 · 15th September 2023, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

You might well dispute the extent of the emergency or the solution, but are you really trying to suggest that it's imaginary? Are people not getting shot? Is being shot to death not, in some fairly elementary way, a matter of public health?

Even if it's misguided, I don't think this is "what people call a benevolent dictatorship." It does however sound like what Fox News would call it.

People getting shot in the USA, is not an emergency situation requiring the suspension of Constitutional rights.

If we allow such a thing, the next time a GOPer is in the White House he will use another "emergency" to suspend the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments. And other legal protections that we rely on.

Hercules56 · 15th September 2023, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

I don't care.

I don't ******* care.

Then why are you in this thread? Sounds like you don't care about any of the actual subject matter. Here just to bash gun owners?

Donal · 15th September 2023, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

On top of that, in my opinion, it's a bull **** stat anyway. The individual making the claim that they've used their weapon, or the threat of it, to protect themselves requires abso-*******-lutely no evidence to support it. It's literally nothing more than asking some gun toting douche, "Have you ever had to use your gun for self-defense?" and them saying, "Yup, I done did it just yesterday!"

At best I'd maybe guess 50% of those are true. It's a loaded question.

One such study I saw actually had the interviews attached to it. Going off memory here, but several were along the lines of "I saw this guy who looked like he was ready to attack me, but he saw the gun in my coat and walked away."

There's definitely a complicated and nuanced discussion to have regarding gun violence and how to address it, but we simply lack the maturity and will as a country to have it.

Donal · 15th September 2023, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

People getting shot in the USA, is not an emergency situation requiring the suspension of Constitutional rights.

If we allow such a thing, the next time a GOPer is in the White House he will use another "emergency" to suspend the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments. And other legal protections that we rely on.

You mean the PATRIOT Act? Wait, that was a bipartisan effort.

Like I keep saying, there's no point in being paralyzed by fear of what the GQP might do in retaliation or if you give them precedent. I just assume they will do it anyway and act to prevent them from being in that position in the first place.

Hercules56 · 15th September 2023, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Donal

You mean the PATRIOT Act? Wait, that was a bipartisan effort.

Like I keep saying, there's no point in being paralyzed by fear of what the GQP might do in retaliation or if you give them precedent. I just assume they will do it anyway and act to prevent them from being in that position in the first place.

Do you think the governor will appeal the Judge's decision to stay her executive order?

Donal · 15th September 2023, 07:13 AM

Seems like she has nothing to lose at this point if she appeals it. Passing it pissed of a bunch of people to begin with, backing down at the first challenge makes her look weak and unprepared, and she looks like a hero to certain folks if she wins her appeal.

But, much like you, I am not familiar with the specifics of Nevada politics. Also, much like you, I am not a lawyer. Unlike you, I realize those are 2 good reasons not to make huge sweeping declarative statements about the issue.

TLDR: I dunno

Hercules56 · 15th September 2023, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Donal

Seems like she has nothing to lose at this point if she appeals it. Passing it pissed of a bunch of people to begin with, backing down at the first challenge makes her look weak and unprepared, and she looks like a hero to certain folks if she wins her appeal.

But, much like you, I am not familiar with the specifics of Nevada politics. Also, much like you, I am not a lawyer. Unlike you, I realize those are 2 good reasons not to make huge sweeping declarative statements about the issue.

TLDR: I dunno

I don't see her looking like a hero to anyone. No one of value had spoken out in support of her unConstitutional action. Seems everyone is either condemning what she did or staying mute.

Planigale · 15th September 2023, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

People getting shot in the USA, is not an emergency situation requiring the suspension of Constitutional rights.

If we allow such a thing, the next time a GOPer is in the White House he will use another "emergency" to suspend the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments. And other legal protections that we rely on.

In your opinion. But perhaps it is. Should an ammendment not be suspended if it is the cause of ever increasing numbers of dead children. The second ammendment is probably the leading cause of preventable childhood deaths in the US. How many children have to die to justify suspension of the causative legislation?

W.D.Clinger · 15th September 2023, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Donal

Are you familiar with the laws in Nevada? I'm not. Surely not enough to make such a definitive statement.

Originally Posted by Donal

Again with the empty references to the Constitution. It isn't a win-or-lose issue for the Constitution. It is an issue of whether or not the governor 's action falls within her power under the Constitution and Nevada state law.

Originally Posted by Donal

And again, this weird right-wing need to put everything in terms of cartoonish patriotism and "winning". The Constitution will "prevail" no matter what the final decision is. Either she has the right to do so under the Constitution and Nevada law or she doesn't. That's what the law suit is for.

Originally Posted by Donal

But, much like you, I am not familiar with the specifics of Nevada politics. Also, much like you, I am not a lawyer. Unlike you, I realize those are 2 good reasons not to make huge sweeping declarative statements about the issue.

What does Nevada have to do with this thread?

14th September 2023, 02:07 PM	#121
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,815	Originally Posted by Hercules56 I have faith that if the politicians in NY and CT truly believed that concealed carry permits were a bad and dangerous thing, they would have worked hard to make it virtually impossible to obtain one, pre-Bruen. But they didn't. Honestly I trust their judgment on this issue more than I trust yours. This is a fallacy. "Liberal states have this, therefor it can't be bad" is such a ***** stupid argument to make. Who cares if certain states have conceal carry, what the does it have to do with this? For a closet conservative that bitches about "getting back to the OP", you should stick to it yourself. ..or did the subject of the thread change to "dog ** fallacies I come up with when bored" and I missed it?
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

14th September 2023, 02:09 PM	#122
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,898	I trust her judgement more than I trust yours. Mainly because she knows what her job title is. And again, this weird right-wing need to put everything in terms of cartoonish patriotism and "winning". The Constitution will "prevail" no matter what the final decision is. Either she has the right to do so under the Constitution and Nevada law or she doesn't. That's what the law suit is for.
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,898	__________________ SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense

14th September 2023, 02:11 PM	#123
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by plague311 This is a fallacy. "Liberal states have this, therefor it can't be bad" is such a ***** stupid argument to make. Who cares if certain states have conceal carry, what the does it have to do with this? For a closet conservative that bitches about "getting back to the OP", you should stick to it yourself. ..or did the subject of the thread change to "dog ** fallacies I come up with when bored" and I missed it? Do you think the Governor will appeal? Or will she see the writing on the wall?
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

14th September 2023, 02:13 PM	#124
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by Donal I trust her judgement more than I trust yours. Mainly because she knows what her job title is. And again, this weird right-wing need to put everything in terms of cartoonish patriotism and "winning". The Constitution will "prevail" no matter what the final decision is. Either she has the right to do so under the Constitution and Nevada law or she doesn't. That's what the law suit is for. The governor thinks one can use a made up emergency to suspend constitutional rights. And you trust such a stance. Huh... I guess that is what people call a benevolent dictatorship.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms." Last edited by Hercules56; 14th September 2023 at 02:17 PM.

14th September 2023, 02:17 PM	#125
MarkCorrigan ¡No pasarán! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Слава Україні Posts: 12,558	Originally Posted by Hercules56 That's why its good that New Mexico lets citizens defend themselves. Otherwise they would have to wait for police who will arrive long after the crime is committed. Why does this have to be a gun? Why not pepper spray? Why not something else? Why must it be with a gun? This is what I don't get, the assumption from Americans that there's nothing between "You can't defend yourself!" and "Defend yourself with a lethal firearm". Your country is nuts on this issue. No one else sees the need to defend themselves with a handgun, let alone one that's carried concealed. Absolute madness.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara

14th September 2023, 02:51 PM	#126
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan Why does this have to be a gun? Why not pepper spray? Why not something else? Why must it be with a gun? This is what I don't get, the assumption from Americans that there's nothing between "You can't defend yourself!" and "Defend yourself with a lethal firearm". Your country is nuts on this issue. No one else sees the need to defend themselves with a handgun, let alone one that's carried concealed. Absolute madness. We have crime problems that many other nations do not. USA can be a scary place.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

14th September 2023, 04:11 PM	#127
Lurch Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 2,473	Originally Posted by Hercules56 We have crime problems that many other nations do not. USA can be a scary place. What are these unique problems that make the US a "scary place?" Do you have a higher rate of mental illness? A less civil populace? A notable lack of morals? More people that are drunk and high? Are there more pollutants that lead to cognitive and developmental defects? Is the nation poorer than most? Are the people lacking in education and the means to learn? Or is it simply a society that has an outsized number of violent criminals? Or, reading more closely still into your comment... Is it the number of people of color that makes the US a "scary place" requiring the 'non-scary' people to pack heat?

14th September 2023, 04:16 PM	#128
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by Lurch What are these unique problems that make the US a "scary place?" Do you have a higher rate of mental illness? A less civil populace? A notable lack of morals? More people that are drunk and high? Are there more pollutants that lead to cognitive and developmental defects? Is the nation poorer than most? Are the people lacking in education and the means to learn? Or is it simply a society that has an outsized number of violent criminals? Or, reading more closely still into your comment... Is it the number of people of color that makes the US a "scary place" requiring the 'non-scary' people to pack heat? Sigh.. Do you think the governor will appeal the judges decision?
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

14th September 2023, 05:01 PM	#129
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Yes it's very sad that some parts of this country has such high crime that people feel the need to protect themselves with a firearm. If we could deal with socioeconomic problems and crime in a much better way we wouldn't have this situation. But unfortunately in many parts of this country you simply cannot rely on the police to protect you in a moment's notice. The choice is to either accept that you will be a victim, possibly multiple times or try to defend yourself. That's an excuse. People say they carry one for protection but according to Pew Research, 85% of people who own a gun have never had to use it for protection: Quote: Roughly one-in-seven adults who own or have owned a gun (15%) say they have fired or threatened to fire a gun to defend themselves, their family or their possessions. It's a cultural thing in many parts of the country; owning a gun is the norm, especially among men. Quote: Geographically, gun ownership is less concentrated in the Northeast than in other regions in the country, and there is a vast urban-rural divide across regions. Among adults who live in rural areas, 46% say they own a gun. By comparison, 28% of adults who live in the suburbs and even fewer – 19% – in urban areas own a gun. I guess those rural areas are just rife with crime compared to those urban areas where crime is supposed to be so rampant. Quote: Many American gun owners exist in a social context where gun ownership is the norm. Roughly half of all gun owners (49%) say that all or most of their friends own guns. In stark contrast, among those who don’t own a gun, only one-in-ten say that all or most of their friends own guns. Experience with guns starts relatively early particularly for those who grew up in a gun-owning household. Men who grew up in a household with guns and who have ever shot a gun report that they first fired a gun when they were, on average, 12 years old. Among women who grew up in gun-owning households and who have ever shot a gun, the average age at which they first fired a gun is 17. Men tend to become gun owners at an earlier age than women: 19 years old, on average, vs. 27 years old for women. Quote: A majority of gun owners (66%) own multiple firearms, and about three-quarters (73%) say they could never see themselves not owning a gun. How many guns does one need for 'protection'? That 73% say they will always own a gun more than suggests it's a cultural thing, not a 'protection' thing. Quote: One key and defining characteristic of gun owners is the extent to which they associate the right to own guns with their own personal sense of freedom – 74% of gun owners say this right is essential, compared with only 35% of non-gun owners who say the same. While the right to own guns is highly valued by most gun owners, not all gun owners see gun ownership the same way. Half of all gun owners say owning a gun is important to their overall identity The US has a gun culture and that is what has got to change before there can be any solution to our horrendous numbers of gun deaths.

14th September 2023, 05:13 PM	#130
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26,358	Originally Posted by Stacyhs That's an excuse. People say they carry one for protection but according to Pew Research, 85% of people who own a gun have never had to use it for protection: Quote: Roughly one-in-seven adults who own or have owned a gun (15%) say they have fired or threatened to fire a gun to defend themselves, their family or their possessions. I'm surprised it's as high as 15%. That's significant. Guns are getting a lot of use in defense.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

14th September 2023, 05:23 PM	#131
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Nobody is telling you to carry a gun. If it makes you feel uncomfortable or frightened then don't do it. Wait for the police to come protect you. But other people are willing to do the background check and training so that they can protect themselves in public with a concealed firearm. If liberal states like New York and Connecticut allow such a thing then it cannot be as evil as you say. What scares me are people with guns who get pissed off because someone accidentally cuts them off on the freeway: Quote: Using Gun Violence Archive’s database to analyze road rage incidents, Everytown Research & Policy found that the number of road rage injuries and deaths involving guns has increased every year since 2018. In that year, at least 70 road rage shooting deaths occurred in the United States; in 2022, the number doubled to 141. The same trend occurred with gun injuries: at least 176 people were injured in a road rage incident in 2018, with a staggering increase to 413 people in 2022. These incidents translate to a person being shot and either injured or killed in a road rage incident in 2022 every 16 hours, on average. Or because their neighbors are playing music too loud: Quote: A man was charged with first-degree murder Monday after witnesses said a 9-year-old Chicago girl riding a scooter was fatally shot by someone upset over noise. Or because someone doesn't like where his neighbor put his trash cans: Quote: A man shot and killed his neighbor yesterday following an argument over the placement of trash cans on garbage day. Or because someone shoveled snow into his yard: Quote: A feuding neighbor shot a couple with a handgun before fetching an AR-15-style rifle from his home to kill them, after an apparent argument over the couple shoveling snow into his yard.

14th September 2023, 05:35 PM	#132
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by William Parcher I'm surprised it's as high as 15%. That's significant. Guns are getting a lot of use in defense. Notice that 15% includes people who have only "threatened" someone with a gun over their possessions. That is not 'self-defense'. "Drop that bike or I'm gonna shoot your ass!"

14th September 2023, 05:42 PM	#133
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by Hercules56 If concealed carry is such a terrible thing, why do very Liberal states like NY have such programs with tens of thousands of folks walking around in public with concealed firearms? Can't be that evil if even NY does it. You are aware that this SC struck down NY's concealed carry law, aren't you? Quote: The Supreme Court has struck down New York’s century-old law restricting the carrying of concealed firearms, its first major Second Amendment decision in more than a decade and a ruling that could lead to more guns on the streets. Writing for the 6-3 majority, Justice Clarence Thomas said Thursday that the law’s requirement of New Yorkers who want a permit to carry a handgun in public to show “proper cause” that the weapon is specifically needed for self-defense “violates the Fourteenth Amendment by preventing law-abiding citizens with ordinary self-defense needs from exercising their right to keep and bear arms in public.”

14th September 2023, 05:46 PM	#134
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26,358	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Notice that 15% includes people who have only "threatened" someone with a gun over their possessions. That is not 'self-defense'. "Drop that bike or I'm gonna shoot your ass!" Defense of self, others or property. That's a significant percentage.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

14th September 2023, 05:48 PM	#135
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by Stacyhs You are aware that this SC struck down NY's concealed carry law, aren't you? No, get your facts straight. They only struck down the provision requiring a special need for protection. But many counties in the state were allowing people to get concealed Carry permits due to the judges' discretion as to what counts as "special need". Rural counties were basically allowing anyone to get a concealed carry permit as long as they could fulfill all of the other requirements, while in the cities the "special need" requirement was strictly enforced.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

14th September 2023, 06:20 PM	#136
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by Hercules56 No, get your facts straight. They only struck down the provision requiring a special need for protection. Um...read for comprehension. I quoted exactly what they struck down so I got my facts 'straight'. [quote=Hercules56;14162696]But many counties in the state were allowing people to get concealed Carry permits due to the judges' discretion as to what counts as "special need". Rural counties were basically allowing anyone to get a concealed carry permit as long as they could fulfill all of the other requirements, while in the cities the "special need" requirement was strictly enforced.https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/16/trump-administration-broke-law-in-withholding-ukraine-aid.html Rural counties in NY are mostly RED counties so that's no surprise.

14th September 2023, 06:21 PM	#137
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by William Parcher Defense of self, others or property. That's a significant percentage. Read my post again but for comprehension this time.

14th September 2023, 06:25 PM	#138
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26,358	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Read my post again but for comprehension this time. Read mine again. 15% is a significant percentage.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

14th September 2023, 06:45 PM	#139
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,860	Originally Posted by Lurch What are these unique problems that make the US a "scary place?" all the guns
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,860

14th September 2023, 06:47 PM	#140
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by William Parcher Read mine again. 15% is a significant percentage. I'll say it once more for your benefit. If you still don't understand, I can't help you: Notice that 15% includes people who have only "threatened" someone with a gun over their possessions. That is not 'self-defense'.

14th September 2023, 06:47 PM	#141
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,860	Originally Posted by Stacyhs How many guns does one need for 'protection'? That 73% say they will always own a gun more than suggests it's a cultural thing, not a 'protection' thing. every gun nut i know is a hunter. not every hunter i know is a gun nut, but the gun nuts and the non gun nuts all like using a bunch of different guns for hunting.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,860

14th September 2023, 06:52 PM	#142
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by dirtywick every gun nut i know is a hunter. not every hunter i know is a gun nut, but the gun nuts and the non gun nuts all like using a bunch of different guns for hunting. My BIL is a gun nut. He's never hunted in his life, never had to use a gun for protection. Still, he has several pistols and rifles. Hunters overwhelmingly use rifles, not pistols, and don't carry rifles on their hips to Walmart for 'protection'.

14th September 2023, 06:59 PM	#143
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,860	well, yeah, those are the gun nuts doing that. my point is a lot of the data, the suburban and rural guys with multiple guns that can't see themselves never owning one, describes every hunter i've ever met. and hunters most definitely own pistols lol
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,860	Last edited by dirtywick; 14th September 2023 at 07:01 PM.

14th September 2023, 07:10 PM	#144
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by dirtywick well, yeah, those are the gun nuts doing that. my point is a lot of the data, the suburban and rural guys with multiple guns that can't see themselves never owning one, describes every hunter i've ever met. and hunters most definitely own pistols lol To hunt with?

14th September 2023, 07:12 PM	#145
Reformed Offlian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: USA Posts: 1,229	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I'll say it once more for your benefit. If you still don't understand, I can't help you: Notice that 15% includes people who have only "threatened" someone with a gun over their possessions. That is not 'self-defense'. I don't know what the disconnect between you and William Parcher is, but I think I see his point. 15% of gun owners have, by their own admission, at very least threatened to shoot somebody with them at some point. That is a frighteningly high number. One in six people say they have been in confrontations where they might have shot somebody had things gone just a little differently? Yikes.

14th September 2023, 07:19 PM	#146
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 31,719	Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian I don't know what the disconnect between you and William Parcher is, but I think I see his point. 15% of gun owners have, by their own admission, at very least threatened to shoot somebody with them at some point. That is a frighteningly high number. One in six people say they have been in confrontations where they might have shot somebody had things gone just a little differently? Yikes. The way I'm seeing it is that Parcher thinks 15% of gun owners have had to use their guns for self-protection. That's not true when you consider that threatening someone with a gun over possessions is not 'self-defense'. And it's one in seven, not six.

14th September 2023, 07:21 PM	#147
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,860	Originally Posted by Stacyhs To hunt with? probably just target shooting. they take them home and to the range. they also don't carry them to wal mart. they're not afraid going there, they're afraid of black people in chicago.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,860

15th September 2023, 04:47 AM	#148
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Um...read for comprehension. I quoted exactly what they struck down so I got my facts 'straight'. But many counties in the state were allowing people to get concealed Carry permits due to the judges' discretion as to what counts as "special need". Rural counties were basically allowing anyone to get a concealed carry permit as long as they could fulfill all of the other requirements, while in the cities the "special need" requirement was strictly enforced.https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/16/trump-administration-broke-law-in-withholding-ukraine-aid.html Rural counties in NY are mostly RED counties so that's no surprise. You're incorrect. Again. NY's CCW law was not struck down, only one part of it was. The rest of it and the majority of the law was held to be constitutional. New York can still require "Good Guy references", training, financial info, etc in order to decide whether someone is approved for the permit. Supreme Court did not strike those rules nor did they even consider them. Supreme Court only considered whether the Sullivan Law was legal, and that law requires a "proper cause" in order to have a concealed carry permit. But as you clearly know each county was given the discretion as to how to enforce the proper cause provision, or whether to enforce it at all. For the most part New York State was mostly "Shall Issue" rural counties with a few "May Issue" urban counties mixed between them.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

15th September 2023, 06:28 AM	#149
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,815	Originally Posted by Stacyhs The way I'm seeing it is that Parcher thinks 15% of gun owners have had to use their guns for self-protection. That's not true when you consider that threatening someone with a gun over possessions is not 'self-defense'. And it's one in seven, not six. On top of that, in my opinion, it's a bull ** stat anyway. The individual making the claim that they've used their weapon, or the threat of it, to protect themselves requires abso-*****-lutely no evidence to support it. It's literally nothing more than asking some gun toting douche, "Have you ever had to use your gun for self-defense?" and them saying, "Yup, I done did it just yesterday!" At best I'd maybe guess 50% of those are true. It's a loaded question.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

15th September 2023, 06:30 AM	#150
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,815	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Do you think the Governor will appeal? I don't care. Originally Posted by Hercules56 Or will she see the writing on the wall? I don't ******* care.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

15th September 2023, 06:39 AM	#151
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 35,364	Originally Posted by Hercules56 The governor thinks one can use a made up emergency to suspend constitutional rights. And you trust such a stance. Huh... I guess that is what people call a benevolent dictatorship. You might well dispute the extent of the emergency or the solution, but are you really trying to suggest that it's imaginary? Are people not getting shot? Is being shot to death not, in some fairly elementary way, a matter of public health? Even if it's misguided, I don't think this is "what people call a benevolent dictatorship." It does however sound like what Fox News would call it.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

15th September 2023, 06:52 AM	#152
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by bruto You might well dispute the extent of the emergency or the solution, but are you really trying to suggest that it's imaginary? Are people not getting shot? Is being shot to death not, in some fairly elementary way, a matter of public health? Even if it's misguided, I don't think this is "what people call a benevolent dictatorship." It does however sound like what Fox News would call it. People getting shot in the USA, is not an emergency situation requiring the suspension of Constitutional rights. If we allow such a thing, the next time a GOPer is in the White House he will use another "emergency" to suspend the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments. And other legal protections that we rely on.
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

15th September 2023, 06:54 AM	#153
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by plague311 I don't care. I don't ******* care. Then why are you in this thread? Sounds like you don't care about any of the actual subject matter. Here just to bash gun owners?
Hercules56 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 6,595	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

15th September 2023, 06:57 AM	#154
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,898	Originally Posted by plague311 On top of that, in my opinion, it's a bull ** stat anyway. The individual making the claim that they've used their weapon, or the threat of it, to protect themselves requires abso-*****-lutely no evidence to support it. It's literally nothing more than asking some gun toting douche, "Have you ever had to use your gun for self-defense?" and them saying, "Yup, I done did it just yesterday!" At best I'd maybe guess 50% of those are true. It's a loaded question. One such study I saw actually had the interviews attached to it. Going off memory here, but several were along the lines of "I saw this guy who looked like he was ready to attack me, but he saw the gun in my coat and walked away." There's definitely a complicated and nuanced discussion to have regarding gun violence and how to address it, but we simply lack the maturity and will as a country to have it.
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,898	__________________ SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense

15th September 2023, 07:02 AM	#155
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,898	Originally Posted by Hercules56 People getting shot in the USA, is not an emergency situation requiring the suspension of Constitutional rights. If we allow such a thing, the next time a GOPer is in the White House he will use another "emergency" to suspend the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments. And other legal protections that we rely on. You mean the PATRIOT Act? Wait, that was a bipartisan effort. Like I keep saying, there's no point in being paralyzed by fear of what the GQP might do in retaliation or if you give them precedent. I just assume they will do it anyway and act to prevent them from being in that position in the first place.
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,898	__________________ SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense Last edited by Donal; 15th September 2023 at 07:05 AM.