Continuation Prostitution part 2

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Compared to USAia countries with decdent sex education and access to contraception (here it's available free to anyone under 30) have low abortion rates. I rather suspect professions would take greater care than the majority.

That has little to do with human emotional response to sex.

Discussion continued from here. You can quote and reply to any post from that part here.

Posted By:zooterkin

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

If you don't understand why music has deep psychological mechanisms at play because of the possibility of hearing loss, you really don't understand humans. Or evolution.

Music does indeed have deep psychological effects, but not because of hearing loss. We did not evolve under conditions where that was a significant possibility. You're really bad at this.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Knock yourself out at NJ DCA (New Jersey Division of Community Affairs) Home Improvement Contractors requirements. Vehicle requirements additionally fall under title 19 of NJ motor vehicle laws, commercial vehicle lettering.

Curiously the actual rules only refer to:
1. An identification badge which is required to carry:
The name, color, photograph, and signature of the individual to whom the badge has been issued.
The business name and registration number of the entity;
The badge’s expiration date.
A clear and visible statement that the badge is not for an electrical contractor, plumbing contractor, or HVACR contractor.

Vehicles shall be marked on both sides with the following information:
The name of the registered home improvement contractor in lettering at least one inch in height
“HIC reg. #” followed by the registration number of the registrant in lettering at one inch in height.

There are no listed mandates for information to be includes on business cards and invoices, other than a requirement on te latter to mentio the relevant legisation.

NEW JERSEY ADMINISTRATIVE CODE TITLE 13 LAW AND PUBLIC SAFETY CHAPTER 45A ADMINISTRATIVE RULES OF THE DIVISION OF CONSUMER AFFAIRS SUBCHAPTERS 16, 17 & 17A HOME IMPROVEMENT PRACTICES HOME IMPROVEMENT CONTRACTORS HOME ELEVATION CONTRACTORS

Somewhat different from what you claimed.......



ETA: Ooops, our antipodean member beat me to it

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That has little to do with human emotional response to sex.

Neither had your post.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Neither had your post.

Considering that our emotional response to sex has a hell of a lot to do with evolution, that's obviously false.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Yeah, like I said, lawyers are the ones that get the big bucks.

Anyway, once again thanks for the opportunity to look into a little bit of your relevant legislation.

It is fun to occasionally take a dive into something you never put much thought into, isn't it? It's one of the main reasons I enjoy the forum.

Regarding NJ laws, the requirements for business cards and contracts, and lettering of commercial vehicles, predate the HIC program by decades, so the relevant laws are all over the place. AFAIK, they still haven't consolidated them in one concise place yet. The pdf you were referring to was literally step one in what you need to do. For instance, just to go to the municipal dump, a commercial vehicle has to have a decal for the applicable county. The lettering requirements for the vehicle change yet again, this time dictated by NJDEP (dept of environmental protection). All of which in toto is why I didn't give you a "link" at 2AM; it would be a freaking spreadsheet matrix of various requirements. And to keep things fun, it varies widely by State. In the adjacent State of Pennsylvania, there is no commercial vehicle lettering requirement at all.

Back on topic, what the NJ model does do is keep the rif-raf out of the game, which was it's declared intent (we had a huge problem with contractors taking the money and vanishing into the night, untraceable). And it all revolves around the magic posted registration number, verifiable with a smart phone. I think such a model makes sense in a legalized US approach. Hell, it would be virtually already required in Jersey, as masseuses et al already have to individually register for their various practices. It protects the legal workers and their clients, and effectively muscles out the underage/illegal workers.

The arguments presented against this, as smartcooky continuously reminds us, are that prostitutes are fearful of a "data breach". It's 2023, so get the **** over it. Everything from your driver's license to credit lines and library card is in a database now. "We don't trust Da Man, yo" is a childish excuse.

The other argument is that it is redundant in NZ because your profession is listed on accident insurance. Again, ridiculous. We indicate our professions on our taxes, too, but that's not publicly verifiable in the way a registration number is, which is the whole point.

[TurkeysGhost]

I am of two minds about this.

On one side, I can see how formal registration would have huge benefits in helping clean up a notoriously scummy industry, be that sketchy contractors or the sex trade. Easy licensure would do a lot for client and pros alike to ensure everything is on the up and up, relatively speaking.

On the other, I can see why sex workers might have particularly heightened security concerns. The stigma for sex work, even in places that have legalized it, must be intense. People don't begrudge you for having a prior life as a licensed hair stylist or dabbling in carpentry for a few years, but it seems to me that a large part of the population sees spending any time as a sex worker as a permanent stain to your character. For those not intending to make a lifelong career out of the sex trade, maintaining some degree of privacy seems like a reasonable caution.

Stories of people having their prior lives as sex workers, including legal sex work like online pornography or stripping, thrown in their face years after the fact and having serious professional consequences are common in the US.

I don't see any tidy way to resolve this conflict. You can't wave a magic wand and make the public more relaxed about this highly scandalized industry, but you do wonder how effective any efforts to drag this seedy business into daylight is going to be if there's still a large degree of secrecy baked into the system.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by catsmate

..Somewhat different from what you claimed.......

ETA: Ooops, our antipodean member beat me to it

Jesus Christ, catsmate, can you pretty please with sugar on top make some kind of superhuman effort to keep up? I already pointed out hours ago that NJHIC is the registration body, but that all the relevant requirements are all over the map, from contract law to motor vehicle laws, which predate NJHIC yet are still required.

If you spent half as much time actually reading the posts instead of trawling the Internet for half-assed gotchas, you could be a constructive contributor to the discussion.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I am of two minds about this.

On one side, I can see how formal registration would have huge benefits in helping clean up a notoriously scummy industry, be that sketchy contractors or the sex trade. Easy licensure would do a lot for client and pros alike to ensure everything is on the up and up, relatively speaking.

On the other, I can see why sex workers might have particularly heightened security concerns. The stigma for sex work, even in places that have legalized it, must be intense. People don't begrudge you for having a prior life as a licensed hair stylist or dabbling in carpentry for a few years, but it seems to me that a large part of the population sees spending any time as a sex worker as a permanent stain to your character. For those not intending to make a lifelong career out of the sex trade, maintaining some degree of privacy seems like a reasonable caution.

Stories of people having their prior lives as sex workers, including legal sex work like online pornography or stripping, thrown in their face years after the fact and having serious professional consequences are common in the US.

I don't see any tidy way to resolve this conflict. You can't wave a magic wand and make the public more relaxed about this highly scandalized industry, but you do wonder how effective any efforts to drag this seedy business into daylight is going to be if there's still a large degree of secrecy baked into the system.

Roundly agreed. But if prostitution were being legalized, doesn't most of the stigma kind of vanish, apart from some religious yahoos who no one is reaching anyway? The whole point of legalization is to turn the trade into a respectable and legal profession, so why keep treating it as something shameful that has to be anonymous? Can't really do both, unless there's a subtext that it really isn't respectable, but damn I wants to poke a bitch (obvious facetiousness is obvious).

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Roundly agreed. But if prostitution were being legalized, doesn't most of the stigma kind of vanish, apart from some religious yahoos who no one is reaching anyway? The whole point of legalization is to turn the trade into a respectable and legal profession, so why keep treating it as something shameful that has to be anonymous? Can't really do both, unless there's a subtext that it really isn't respectable, but damn I wants to poke a bitch (obvious facetiousness is obvious).

I dunno. Stripping and OnlyFans are legal and people still have good reason to keep this part of their lives anonymous. Being outed as a legal sex worker is often quite disastrous.

Probably would take some positive action by the law to deal with this stigma, otherwise you might be waiting a long time for the culture to come around on its own.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I dunno. Stripping and OnlyFans are legal and people still have good reason to keep this part of their lives anonymous. Being outed as a legal sex worker is often quite disastrous.

Probably would take some positive action by the law to deal with this stigma, otherwise you might be waiting a long time for the culture to come around on its own.

You can't legally prohibit stigma.

And I'm not sure most people really understand the driving mechanisms behind such stigma, why sex work is looked down upon, and why slut shaming is a thing. Religious communities often adopt these taboos, but that's not really the source, and you'll still get it even without religion. I've often seen the claim that slut shaming is a form of patriarchal control, but it's really not. The primary driving motivation for slut shaming is intra-female competition. In western societies (we aren't counting stuff like the Taliban), females control access to sex, and scarcity drives up value. Promiscuity lowers sexual market value, and therefore hurts other women. Slut shaming is how women control other women. They usually recruit men to join in, but men aren't the source.

Legalizing prostitution may reduce the stigma surrounding sex work, but it's never going to eliminate it, because it won't eliminate the motivation for it. I'm not convinced that doing so would even be a good thing.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I dunno. Stripping and OnlyFans are legal and people still have good reason to keep this part of their lives anonymous. Being outed as a legal sex worker is often quite disastrous.

Again, agreed, but I think that's because stripping and OF are viewed as only a theoretical half step over to the legal side of the line. Many, I'm sure, consider stripping to be like escort services; ie a veil for actual prostitution anyway. Presumably, we'd have to take that big step in legalizing, as NZ must have, to simply begin the clean-up of the demonstrably sordid US market. Sunshine is a great disinfectant and all that.

Quote:

Probably would take some positive action by the law to deal with this stigma, otherwise you might be waiting a long time for the culture to come around on its own.

From what I've been reading, NZ met with pushback when they took the plunge. It seems to have worked out in time (although I still think more effort needs to be focused on the underaged/trafficked weak links).

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You can't legally prohibit stigma.

And I'm not sure most people really understand the driving mechanisms behind such stigma, why sex work is looked down upon, and why slut shaming is a thing. Religious communities often adopt these taboos, but that's not really the source, and you'll still get it even without religion. I've often seen the claim that slut shaming is a form of patriarchal control, but it's really not. The primary driving motivation for slut shaming is intra-female competition. In western societies (we aren't counting stuff like the Taliban), females control access to sex, and scarcity drives up value. Promiscuity lowers sexual market value, and therefore hurts other women. Slut shaming is how women control other women. They usually recruit men to join in, but men aren't the source.

Legalizing prostitution may reduce the stigma surrounding sex work, but it's never going to eliminate it, because it won't eliminate the motivation for it. I'm not convinced that doing so would even be a good thing.

I mean, in a lot of ways you can prohibit stigma. The entire history of anti-discrimination law is that certain expressions of stigma are legally prohibited. That doesn't stop people entirely from holding prejudicial views about certain demographics of people, but it's pretty effective at blunting the impact of that prejudice.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You can't legally prohibit stigma.

And I'm not sure most people really understand the driving mechanisms behind such stigma, why sex work is looked down upon, and why slut shaming is a thing. Religious communities often adopt these taboos, but that's not really the source, and you'll still get it even without religion. I've often seen the claim that slut shaming is a form of patriarchal control, but it's really not. The primary driving motivation for slut shaming is intra-female competition. In western societies (we aren't counting stuff like the Taliban), females control access to sex, and scarcity drives up value. Promiscuity lowers sexual market value, and therefore hurts other women. Slut shaming is how women control other women. They usually recruit men to join in, but men aren't the source.

Legalizing prostitution may reduce the stigma surrounding sex work, but it's never going to eliminate it, because it won't eliminate the motivation for it. I'm not convinced that doing so would even be a good thing.

Interesting POV on the scarcity/slut shaming angle. I guess the more freewheeling view of sex over there makes it less of a scarce "commodity" for them, and more a given that's not being rationed?

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Considering that our emotional response to sex has a hell of a lot to do with evolution, that's obviously false.

Perhaps I shoudl remind you of your actual post:

Quote:

Obviously not, or abortion wouldn't be a thing. But it also doesn't matter. Our brains didn't evolve to respond to sex with birth control in mind.

Hence my resonse regarding abortion and birth control. Why you headed off on this digression regarding your putative "emotional response" invalidaing the effectiveness of birth control is anyone's guess.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Thermal

It is fun to occasionally take a dive into something you never put much thought into, isn't it? It's one of the main reasons I enjoy the forum.

Regarding NJ laws, the requirements for business cards and contracts, and lettering of commercial vehicles, predate the HIC program by decades, so the relevant laws are all over the place<>

Originally Posted by Thermal

Jesus Christ, catsmate, can you pretty please with sugar on top make some kind of superhuman effort to keep up? I already pointed out hours ago that NJHIC is the registration body, but that all the relevant requirements are all over the map, from contract law to motor vehicle laws, which predate NJHIC yet are still required.

If you spent half as much time actually reading the posts instead of trawling the Internet for half-assed gotchas, you could be a constructive contributor to the discussion.

Citations, or you're talking bollocks, again.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Hence my resonse regarding abortion and birth control. Why you headed off on this digression regarding your putative "emotional response" invalidaing the effectiveness of birth control is anyone's guess.

I never claimed that emotional responses invalidated the effectiveness of birth control. That's a complete misreading of everything I've said. But 1) abortion proves that people don't treat sex purely rationally, because people often don't use it when they should, and 2) the existence of birth control, even completely effective birth control that is being used, doesn't really change our emotional response to sex. Our responses evolved in the absence of birth control, and it hasn't been around long enough for us to have adapted to it on that level. So when I say that sex has deep psychological effects that have evolved due to the possibility of pregnancy, arguing that we have birth control is irrelevant because that doesn't change those responses.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Citations, or you're talking bollocks, again.

No. I'm not trawling through NJ contract law to satisfy irrelevant demands. If you have something to discuss of any level of quality at all, I'm here. If you want to post eye roll emoticons and make foolish demands, then slink away from the discussion when shown to not know what you're talking about, I'm out.

ETA: here's a very general handout from NJHIC. The very first paragraphs spell out in plain language the claims I have been making, specifically for your personal info to appear on all correspondence and vehicle, etc. You'll note the requirements for personal identification and posted registration number are spelled out clearly, and business cards fall under "all correspondence" that have to contain the same information. I'm not a lawyer, so digging through law books is not my thing, but the lawyers I've worked with in construction litigation are very hip to chapter and verse.

I'm sure, however, you will react with an eye roll and go on to demand more irrelevant legwork. Please feel free to shove it in advance.

https://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/oc...gistration.pdf

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I mean, in a lot of ways you can prohibit stigma. The entire history of anti-discrimination law is that certain expressions of stigma are legally prohibited.

Certain forms of discrimination are prohibited, but stigma itself isn't, and can't be.

Quote:

That doesn't stop people entirely from holding prejudicial views about certain demographics of people

That's the stigma.

Quote:

but it's pretty effective at blunting the impact of that prejudice.

In some areas, yes, but not all. In regards to sex work, a significant area of discrimination is likely to be in the marriage market. Most men don't want to marry a former let alone a current sex worker. And there's absolutely no way to legally address that form of discrimination.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Certain forms of discrimination are prohibited, but stigma itself isn't, and can't be.



That's the stigma.



In some areas, yes, but not all. In regards to sex work, a significant area of discrimination is likely to be in the marriage market. Most men don't want to marry a former let alone a current sex worker. And there's absolutely no way to legally address that form of discrimination.

I'm only interested in and talking about the kind of stigma that has direct material impacts on people's ability to engage in the public sphere, like employment discrimination and the like.

People's interpersonal affairs, like marriage prospects, are not really my concern nor something that government should be overly interested in.

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

The prostitutes aren't paying all their taxes, so let's make it legal to exploit them!

Yeah exactly that's what I'm saying. Thank you for distilling my post down to its most important part.

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Roundly agreed. But if prostitution were being legalized, doesn't most of the stigma kind of vanish, apart from some religious yahoos who no one is reaching anyway?

Well it would not happen instantaneously, and I think there are general psychological reasons for why people would find prostitutes objectionable even if they are not hostile towards them in principle.

People might be jealous of them because they are not only getting lots of sex but getting paid for it too. Likewise they might feel like they are a threat to their relationship, not unlike the women who feel resentful toward younger women that are perceived as more desirable by a lot of men.

A lot of people tend to not appreciate it if others are having sex with their partner, even-though one can argue that they should focus their anger on their partner for paying to have sex with a femboy.

Quote:

The whole point of legalization is to turn the trade into a respectable and legal profession, so why keep treating it as something shameful that has to be anonymous?

I don't think anyone had said that it has to be anonymous, just that it shouldn't be considered public information. Especially since societal attitudes take time to change. Until people are comfortable with prostitutes, porn actors and other sex-workers it's appropriate to take public stigma into account.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Well it would not happen instantaneously, and I think there are general psychological reasons for why people would find prostitutes objectionable even if they are not hostile towards them in principle.

Agreed.

Quote:

People might be jealous of them because they are not only getting lots of sex but getting paid for it too.

Meeeeh...that's a more easily dealt with one in the Tinder age, I'd hope.

Quote:

Likewise they might feel like they are a threat to their relationship, not unlike the women who feel resentful toward younger women that are perceived as more desirable by a lot of men.

A lot of people tend to not appreciate it if others are having sex with their partner, even-though one can argue that they should focus their anger on their partner for paying to have sex with a femboy.

Yeah, I totally see this as being a threat to wide acceptance, with sex being a very proprietary gig when in a committed relationship.

Quote:

I don't think anyone had said that it has to be anonymous, just that it shouldn't be considered public information. Especially since societal attitudes take time to change. Until people are comfortable with prostitutes, porn actors and other sex-workers it's appropriate to take public stigma into account.

Right. So, New Zealand took the first crucial step a generation ago, and is still wrestling with the stigma to some degree. That's really asking everyone to play the long game, and calls into question whether it will ever really go away. It's been legal in Amsterdam for centuries, and they are still not in full societal acceptance (prompted by a comment from Emily's Cat, I looked into it a little. Apparently locals don't even work in it, and the workers are largely eastern Asian/Russian with very high turnover).

So are there cultures where the stigma ever actually goes away? If not, should the model accommodate that, or fight to break it down?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Right. So, New Zealand took the first crucial step a generation ago, and is still wrestling with the stigma to some degree. That's really asking everyone to play the long game, and calls into question whether it will ever really go away. It's been legal in Amsterdam for centuries, and they are still not in full societal acceptance (prompted by a comment from Emily's Cat, I looked into it a little. Apparently locals don't even work in it, and the workers are largely eastern Asian/Russian with very high turnover).

So are there cultures where the stigma ever actually goes away? If not, should the model accommodate that, or fight to break it down?

Speaking of the long game, so far developed societies are failing it across the board. Birth rates globally are falling well below replacement almost everywhere that gets even moderately wealthy. Does legalized/destigmatized prostitution exacerbate that?

[TomB]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

The bouncer doesn't usually get used to force an independent contractor to keep working when they've had enough and want to go home. The bartender doesn't usually charge the wait staff for the ingredients needed to mix the drinks, then take a cut of each tip earned on top of the list price of the drinks.

You obviously have little experience in the restaurant industry.

In many (probably most) restaurants that have a bartender, the waitresses are required to give a portion of their tips to the bartender. they also give a portion of their tips to the busboys. In some restaurants, including one high end fine dining restaurant I know of in Chicago, the house gets a cut of the tips as well.

Source: My wife was a bartender, and many of her friends and family worked in restaurants in Chicago.

[TomB]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

13:45A-17.5A - Identification Badges.

Apparently you do need steenking badges, but there's nothing here that says you have to have your address and phone number on them, only your "name, color, photograph, and signature". I'm not sure whether that means "color photograph" or whether you literally have to say on the badge what color you are. Which strikes me as potentially problematic, actually.

And no, my spellchecker does not like that word, but it's an American document so it naturally uses the American spelling.

A couple things about registration.

First, I don't think things like address, phone number or even real name needs to be on a registration/ID card. Really, just a registration number, expiration date, and a photo (to prevent card sharing). Nothing else needs to be disclosed to the public.

Yes, other information would be in a database somewhere. But that database should be exempt from FOIA requests, and should only be open to courts or law enforcement (with a warrant).

Yes, a database could be hacked. But there are a lot of ways one's career could become public. You can't prevent everything. And don't keep the card where those you don't want to know can find it.

In some localities, those who work in adult entertainment facilities have to get a permit. The first place I found on a search was Atlanta: https://www.atlantapd.org/business/a...inment-permits

So it's not entirely unprecedented that there are registrations for sex work.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Music does indeed have deep psychological effects, but not because of hearing loss. We did not evolve under conditions where that was a significant possibility. You're really bad at this.

That has zero ability to defend your special pleading. You're really bad at this

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

That has zero ability to defend your special pleading. You're really bad at this

Sex is special. You can insist all you want to that it's not, but it is.

And everyone knows it is, even if they deny it.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Again, agreed, but I think that's because stripping and OF are viewed as only a theoretical half step over to the legal side of the line. Many, I'm sure, consider stripping to be like escort services; ie a veil for actual prostitution anyway. Presumably, we'd have to take that big step in legalizing, as NZ must have, to simply begin the clean-up of the demonstrably sordid US market. Sunshine is a great disinfectant and all that.

I don't see any reason to believe that is the root of the stigma against legal sex workers like strippers or porn actors.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Sounds like you are going to fall back on quibbling about what constitutes "special".

Definitely not.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

But even purely in terms of neurotransmitters there is indeed something special going on.

Oh yeah, of course! That makes it special.

So, having a ****, a parachute opening, winning a race, praying and hearing god, and throwing up, are all special too. They have completely different neurotransmitter signals to sex, so they must be at least as special.

Or is there a special type and configuration of neurotransmitters that are more special than the others?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

How sad your life must be if you haven't experienced that.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Sex is special. You can insist all you want to that it's not, but it is.

I'm reminded of the deluded darlings in their 70s I know who insist that doing acid or shrooms - or even salvia - gives them a special insight into life, the universe, and everything.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

And everyone knows it is, even if they deny it.

I bet you're a better driver than everyone else, too. I'm strictly average, myself.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Right. So, New Zealand took the first crucial step a generation ago, and is still wrestling with the stigma to some degree.

As you yourself said, it's only the religious zealots, and nobody gives any tosses what they think. Even banks now accept income from prostitution as proof of ability to pay. If the banks are in on it, it's legit.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I dunno. Stripping and OnlyFans are legal and people still have good reason to keep this part of their lives anonymous. Being outed as a legal sex worker is often quite disastrous.

Probably would take some positive action by the law to deal with this stigma, otherwise you might be waiting a long time for the culture to come around on its own.

Indeed.

An outed sex worker may not have told their family what they do for a living. A male prostitute might not have come out as gay to his family. And here's an edge case - what if an outed sex-worker was a member of a Muslim family? She could end up being murdered for it.

There are many reasons why people do not want their personal, private information to be revealed. I renew my challenge to those who mock the idea of privacy being something a sex-worker needs to worry about, to post their own real name, address, telephone number and social security number right here in the forum. The fact that they have not yet done so proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that they know they are talking BS.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Thermal

No. I'm not trawling through NJ contract law to satisfy irrelevant demands.

Oh look, more squirming and evading on an "irrelevant" matter you brought up.
Pathetic really.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

That has zero ability to defend your special pleading. You're really bad at this

Indeed.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Indeed.

An outed sex worker may not have told their family what they do for a living. A male prostitute might not have come out as gay to his family. And here's an edge case - what if an outed sex-worker was a member of a Muslim family? She could end up being murdered for it.

There are many reasons why people do not want their personal, private information to be revealed. I renew my challenge to those who mock the idea of privacy being something a sex-worker needs to worry about, to post their own real name, address, telephone number and social security number right here in the forum. The fact that they have not yet done so proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that they know they are talking BS.

Worse than joining the PSNI....

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Roundly agreed. But if prostitution were being legalized, doesn't most of the stigma kind of vanish, apart from some religious yahoos who no one is reaching anyway?

The whole point of legalization is to turn the trade into a respectable and legal profession, so why keep treating it as something shameful that has to be anonymous? Can't really do both, unless there's a subtext that it really isn't respectable, but damn I wants to poke a bitch (obvious facetiousness is obvious).

Brown v Board of Education was in 1954. That was almost 70 years ago, yet segregation remained legal until it was outlawed by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Fair Housing Act of 1968. But that didn't stop segregation did it? It took Charlotte-Mecklenburg v Board of Education in 1971, and a unanimous SCOTUS to uphold bussing programs to speed up integration of public schools in the United States. But that still didn't stop segregation did it? In the south, it continued in defiance of the law. In 1985, then-US Attorney Jeff Sessions used voter fraud allegations to attack Black voting rights - Sessions targeted only Black defendants, and DeSantis continues that to this day, with his "Voter Fraud Squad" that targets only Black voters.

Many in the south are still butt-hurt over the Civil War 158 years after it ended and they lost. America is still choc full of racists and bigots, many of whom fly Confederate flags, and who who want to ban books by black authors, and do not want the US' history of slavery, and the acts of Civil Rights heroes like Harriet Tubman, Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr to be taught in school.

The lesson here is that things like attitudes do not change overnight just because a law gets passed. What I can tell you is that attitudes as regards prostitution in this country have changed considerably since the enactment of the PRA in 2003. There might be a few holdouts (mostly old, white, grey-haired men and religious bigots), but importantly, there are no children in school right now, in fact, no-one under the age of 20, who grew up during a time when prostitution was a criminal offense. This generation are lot more freewheeling about sex than was even the Hippie culture of the 1960s.

IMO, if forums are still viewable in 50 years time, the generation of that time would read a thread like this, and come away from it wondering what the hell the big deal was! "Sex-work illegal? Sex-workers looked down on? Really? What the hell are they talking about?"

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Roundly agreed. But if prostitution were being legalized, doesn't most of the stigma kind of vanish, apart from some religious yahoos who no one is reaching anyway? The whole point of legalization is to turn the trade into a respectable and legal profession, so why keep treating it as something shameful that has to be anonymous? Can't really do both, unless there's a subtext that it really isn't respectable, but damn I wants to poke a bitch (obvious facetiousness is obvious).

Would that it did. Unfortunately cultural mores change at glacial slowness and it's likely to be a number of generations before the stigma associated with sex work is completely gone.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Would that it did. Unfortunately cultural mores change at glacial slowness and it's likely to be a number of generations before the stigma associated with sex work is completely gone.

Why do you assume that would be a good thing?

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Why do you assume that would be a good thing?

Are you suggesting that stigma is good?

[dann]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Being outed as a legal sex worker is often quite disastrous.

At this point, I don't think that writing erotic fiction is frowned upon by anybody other than a few religious fundamentalists.
At least in Denmark, a number of recognized authors write erotic fiction, and when some of them use pseudonyms, it's not to hide who they are but to make it obvious to their readers what kind of fiction they are buying. They are very open about it in interviews. It has been legal since 1967.

... Oh! You mean outed as a legal prostitute.
You should have said so!

But yes, I agree. The euphemism won't do anybody any good - except for people who are very fond of euphemisms for their own sentimental reasons.
Nobody is fooled by words like sex worker or client.

Quote:

You whore legal sex worker. You are a whore legal sex worker, and your mother was a whore legal sex worker, and her mother, and your father used to turn tricks serve clients at a gas station, cause he was a whore legal sex worker too. and I got a piece of that purchased the same service too
Prison Break, Season 4 (quotes.net)

A rose by any other name ...