[Merged] Democrat congresswoman goes on anti-semitic tirade/Ilwan Omar is anti-Semitic - Page 2

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That's a counter-productive way to run your foreign policy.

Sounds like sacrificing one's principles for convenience is good.

Ziggurat · 11th February 2019, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

That's an opinion that politicians are free to argue about without recrimination of animus.

That's an ironic defense of Omar, given that her tweet wasn't an argument about the merits of the policy itself but was purely a recrimination of animus.

Donal · 11th February 2019, 08:27 AM

Hey, so this legislation regarding BDS: that is a pretty big issue, isn't it?

Ziggurat · 11th February 2019, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Sounds like sacrificing one's principles for convenience is good.

Giving your enemies a pass on bad behavior is not upholding your principles.

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Giving your enemies a pass on bad behavior is not upholding your principles.

You're all over the place. We're talking about giving your ALLIES a pass.

Could you help us out about the actual wording of how she believes the Joos are influencing the government, and how she's minimising the Holocaust? As I said the site from the OP is not displaying properly.

JoeMorgue · 11th February 2019, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Interesting website. They put the Guardian as left-leaning but not far left as some here have claimed. Politico, as usual, scores centrist.

//Slight hijack//

I see two distinct forms of "bias" in the news, neither is good but one is, in my opinion, demonstrably worse than the other.

1. Style one just focuses on negative stories from a particular side. This is the website or blog or whatever that just has someone site there and read the AP and Reuters's wires and share/tweet/republish every negative story about ""Side A" but doesn't embellish or reword the stories themselves to seem any worse. This is, arguably, a form of dishonesty but it's not outright "lying" and there is a legit place in the concept of the news for... a focusing your attention I guess you'd call it. Websites which are admitted or pretty much openly "We're just here to tell you everytime the 'other side' doesn't something bad" are... shady but if they don't introduce any dishonesty into the actual stories they are... at least a thing.

2. Style two does that, but also it's own bias/spin/angle/whatever you want to call it to the story itself. This is worse and usually impossible to maintain without actual full on dishonesty.

Ziggurat · 11th February 2019, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

You're all over the place. We're talking about giving your ALLIES a pass.

No. We're talking about giving your allies a harder time than your enemies. There's more than one way to not do that.

acbytesla · 11th February 2019, 08:37 AM

I read what she tweeted and what she wrote and in NO WAY was it antisemitic. Such a joke. Is any criticism about Israel's policies automatically anti-semitic now?

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

No. We're talking about giving your allies a harder time than your enemies.

Who here is talking about that? We're merely discussing whether being critical of Israel, the state, is anti-semitic, or whether discussing the influence of its lobbyists in the US is anti-semitic.

Are you going to answer my other questions?

SuburbanTurkey · 11th February 2019, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I read what she tweeted and what she wrote and in NO WAY was it antisemitic. Such a joke. Is any criticism about Israel's policies automatically anti-semitic now?

According to the Republicans, yes.

Their anti-BDS approach is literally about silencing 1A protected speech in favor of protecting a foreign power. They are utterly devoted to a pro-Israel stance that fundamental American legal values are disposable.

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I read what she tweeted and what she wrote and in NO WAY was it antisemitic. Such a joke. Is any criticism about Israel's policies automatically anti-semitic now?

"Now"?

Ziggurat · 11th February 2019, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Who here is talking about that?

You lost track already?

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Israel is a close ally, and friendship comes with higher expectations of conduct.

Ziggurat · 11th February 2019, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I read what she tweeted and what she wrote and in NO WAY was it antisemitic. Such a joke. Is any criticism about Israel's policies automatically anti-semitic now?

Once again, her tweets mentioned in the OP were not about Israel's policies.

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

According to the Republicans, yes.

Their anti-BDS approach is literally about silencing 1A protected speech in favor of protecting a foreign power. They are utterly devoted to a pro-Israel stance that fundamental American legal values are disposable.

Why is it wrong for people to try to advance their interests through the political system?

ETA: I don't understand the stance. Being pro-Israel is one thing, and there's a good argument to be made that they are the lynchpin of our foreign policy in the middle east, and a bastion of democracy there, but to me that doesn't translate in Israel being above criticism. It isn't just religious motivation, I'm sure.

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You lost track already?

Holding your allies to a higher standard <> Giving your allies a harder time than your enemies.

ahhell · 11th February 2019, 08:43 AM

Anti-semitic tirade? At worst, its a few questionable tweets, that are marginally anti-semitic if you squint real hard.

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by ahhell

Anti-semitic tirade? At worst, its a few questionable tweets, that are marginally anti-semitic if you squint real hard.

If you squint hard enough, you can see anything you want in anything.

acbytesla · 11th February 2019, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

According to the Republicans, yes.

Their anti-BDS approach is literally about silencing 1A protected speech in favor of protecting a foreign power. They are utterly devoted to a pro-Israel stance that fundamental American legal values are disposable.

There was a New York Democratic Representative who suggested it was as well. I'm pro-israel to a point. But this is ridiculous.

acbytesla · 11th February 2019, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

"Now"?

Good point.

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

There was a New York Democratic Representative who suggested it was as well. I'm pro-israel to a point. But this is ridiculous.

Freedom of speech exists only so long as it's convenient.

acbytesla · 11th February 2019, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Once again, her tweets mentioned in the OP were not about Israel's policies.

To suggest that part of the reason Israel enjoys such support is the heavy lobbying ...as in money is hardly anti-semitic. That people immediately take offense and call it ant-semitic is just a way of trying to shut the criticism down.

Ziggurat · 11th February 2019, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Holding your allies to a higher standard <> Giving your allies a harder time than your enemies.

That is exactly what was being defended here: boycotting, divestment and sanctions for Israel, but not from other more hostile states with worse human rights records.

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

To suggest that part of the reason Israel enjoys such support is the heavy lobbying ...as in money is hardly anti-semitic. That people immediately take offense and call it ant-semitic is just a way of trying to shut the criticism down.

Precisely.

That's a large part of politics, now: find some way to shut the conversation down so you don't have to address the issues on your "side".

acbytesla · 11th February 2019, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Freedom of speech exists only so long as it's convenient.

Its hard to be for freedom of speech when you don't like the speech.

SuburbanTurkey · 11th February 2019, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

There was a New York Democratic Representative who suggested it was as well. I'm pro-israel to a point. But this is ridiculous.

To be honest, I'm willing to accept a pro-Israel stance as a matter of expediency. The world is a messy place and having any kind of ally in the Middle East is valuable. I won't accept this strain of thought that "Israel can do no wrong" that is so prevalent.

JoeMorgue · 11th February 2019, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Precisely.

That's a large part of politics, now: find some way to shut the conversation down so you don't have to address the issues on your "side".

What are you one of those wishy-washy both sides are the same centrists?

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That is exactly what was being defended here: boycotting, divestment and sanctions for Israel, but not from other more hostile states with worse human rights records.

You're really dancing all over the place. One minute we're talking about holding allies to a higher standard, a general idea, and now you're going back to a specific action taken against Israel. Fine, if you think hypocrisy is being engaged in, bring it up to those engaging in it. But don't bring up the hypocrisy of other people to me. It's pointless.

Once more: are you going to answer my other questions? I'll take it as a no if you ignore it again.

Donal · 11th February 2019, 08:58 AM

Are we banned from observing that lots of legislation has well-heeled private backers, or is that just in this case?

This isn't even a criticism of the Israeli government directly. It is criticism that a bill of dubious constitutionality and public value is being pushed by a lobbying group. Hardly an isolated incident for our government.

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

What are you one of those wishy-washy both sides are the same centrists?

Dude, you're slipping. Here's a better version:

What are you one of those wishy-washy, "both sides are the same" idiots who are on the exact middle of all issues?

JoeMorgue · 11th February 2019, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

To be honest, I'm willing to accept a pro-Israel stance as a matter of expediency. The world is a messy place and having any kind of ally in the Middle East is valuable. I won't accept this strain of thought that "Israel can do no wrong" that is so prevalent.

Much as with Saudi Arabia a little bit of "Real Politka" is to be understandable when it comes to the Middle East. It's a contentious part of the world where for the most any potential ally is going to be... not perfect.

Everyone, when they aren't trying to score political points, accepts some degree of "Politics makes strange bed fellows."

Israel is the closest thing to a Western Style Democracy in the Middle East so some degree of "We'll just accept/ignore X to a degree for the sake of political usefulness" is hardly nefarious.

Ziggurat · 11th February 2019, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

To suggest that part of the reason Israel enjoys such support is the heavy lobbying ...as in money is hardly anti-semitic. That people immediately take offense and call it ant-semitic is just a way of trying to shut the criticism down.

Criticism of what? Not of Israel's actions, because again, that's not what's even being discussed here. The criticism is of pro-Israel lobbying. But again, Israel is in no way peculiar in that regard. Why should pro-Israel lobbying be criticized but everyone else's gets a pass? That double standard is motivated in no small part by antisemitism.

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Donal

Are we banned from observing that lots of legislation has well-heeled private backers, or is that just in this case?

This isn't even a criticism of the Israeli government directly. It is criticism that a bill of dubious constitutionality and public value is being pushed by a lobbying group. Hardly an isolated incident for our government.

Dude, you're one step away from gassing minorities!

JoeMorgue · 11th February 2019, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Dude, you're slipping. Here's a better version:

What are you one of those wishy-washy, "both sides are the same" idiots who are on the exact middle of all issues?

I think my sarcasm muscle is finally starting to feel its age. I just don't the energy for full on wit and pith anymore.

applecorped · 11th February 2019, 09:00 AM

"hooked nose"

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Criticism of what? Not of Israel's actions, because again, that's not what's even being discussed here. The criticism is of pro-Israel lobbying. But again, Israel is in no way peculiar in that regard. Why should pro-Israel lobbying be criticized but everyone else's gets a pass? That double standard is motivated in no small part by antisemitism.

You've got evidence of that last bit, right?

The criticism is not just about pro-Israel lobbying, is it, though? It's about lobbying to get the US to ignore Israel's own international law violations.

acbytesla · 11th February 2019, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That is exactly what was being defended here: boycotting, divestment and sanctions for Israel, but not from other more hostile states with worse human rights records.

God...I hate religion. There is no question that Israel's neighbors have horrible human rights records. But that shouldn't mean that Israel's terrible treatment of the Palestinians should be ignored. And it doesn't make what the Congresswoman said anti-semitic.

Ziggurat · 11th February 2019, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

To be honest, I'm willing to accept a pro-Israel stance as a matter of expediency. The world is a messy place and having any kind of ally in the Middle East is valuable. I won't accept this strain of thought that "Israel can do no wrong" that is so prevalent.

I keep having to point this out, but this thread isn't about Israel's actions. None of Omar's tweets mentioned in the OP make any reference to anything Israel has or has not done.

applecorped · 11th February 2019, 09:03 AM

From anti-Semitism to blackface to rape allegations to false attack hoaxes, Liberals are doing awesome right now.

JoeMorgue · 11th February 2019, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by applecorped

From anti-Semitism to blackface to rape allegations to false attack hoaxes, Liberals are doing awesome right now.

"And as long as the other side is making mistakes, I don't have face anything wrong my side is doing!"

Donal · 11th February 2019, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That is exactly what was being defended here: boycotting, divestment and sanctions for Israel, but not from other more hostile states with worse human rights records.

You mean states that are already under sanctions? Or states we don't sell billions of dollars of military equipment to? What "hostile" nations do we treat better than Israel?

11th February 2019, 08:25 AM	#41
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by Ziggurat That's a counter-productive way to run your foreign policy. Sounds like sacrificing one's principles for convenience is good.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 08:26 AM	#42
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 47,930	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey That's an opinion that politicians are free to argue about without recrimination of animus. That's an ironic defense of Omar, given that her tweet wasn't an argument about the merits of the policy itself but was purely a recrimination of animus.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

11th February 2019, 08:27 AM	#43
Donal Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,327	Hey, so this legislation regarding BDS: that is a pretty big issue, isn't it?
Donal Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,327

11th February 2019, 08:28 AM	#44
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 47,930	Originally Posted by Belz... Sounds like sacrificing one's principles for convenience is good. Giving your enemies a pass on bad behavior is not upholding your principles.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

11th February 2019, 08:30 AM	#45
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Giving your enemies a pass on bad behavior is not upholding your principles. You're all over the place. We're talking about giving your ALLIES a pass. Could you help us out about the actual wording of how she believes the Joos are influencing the government, and how she's minimising the Holocaust? As I said the site from the OP is not displaying properly.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 08:30 AM	#46
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,860	Originally Posted by Belz... Interesting website. They put the Guardian as left-leaning but not far left as some here have claimed. Politico, as usual, scores centrist. //Slight hijack// I see two distinct forms of "bias" in the news, neither is good but one is, in my opinion, demonstrably worse than the other. 1. Style one just focuses on negative stories from a particular side. This is the website or blog or whatever that just has someone site there and read the AP and Reuters's wires and share/tweet/republish every negative story about ""Side A" but doesn't embellish or reword the stories themselves to seem any worse. This is, arguably, a form of dishonesty but it's not outright "lying" and there is a legit place in the concept of the news for... a focusing your attention I guess you'd call it. Websites which are admitted or pretty much openly "We're just here to tell you everytime the 'other side' doesn't something bad" are... shady but if they don't introduce any dishonesty into the actual stories they are... at least a thing. 2. Style two does that, but also it's own bias/spin/angle/whatever you want to call it to the story itself. This is worse and usually impossible to maintain without actual full on dishonesty.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." Last edited by JoeMorgue; 11th February 2019 at 08:33 AM.

11th February 2019, 08:36 AM	#47
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 47,930	Originally Posted by Belz... You're all over the place. We're talking about giving your ALLIES a pass. No. We're talking about giving your allies a harder time than your enemies. There's more than one way to not do that.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

11th February 2019, 08:37 AM	#48
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,937	I read what she tweeted and what she wrote and in NO WAY was it antisemitic. Such a joke. Is any criticism about Israel's policies automatically anti-semitic now?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

11th February 2019, 08:38 AM	#49
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by Ziggurat No. We're talking about giving your allies a harder time than your enemies. Who here is talking about that? We're merely discussing whether being critical of Israel, the state, is anti-semitic, or whether discussing the influence of its lobbyists in the US is anti-semitic. Are you going to answer my other questions?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 08:39 AM	#50
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,213	Originally Posted by acbytesla I read what she tweeted and what she wrote and in NO WAY was it antisemitic. Such a joke. Is any criticism about Israel's policies automatically anti-semitic now? According to the Republicans, yes. Their anti-BDS approach is literally about silencing 1A protected speech in favor of protecting a foreign power. They are utterly devoted to a pro-Israel stance that fundamental American legal values are disposable.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

11th February 2019, 08:40 AM	#52
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 47,930	Originally Posted by Belz... Who here is talking about that? You lost track already? Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Israel is a close ally, and friendship comes with higher expectations of conduct.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

11th February 2019, 08:41 AM	#53
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 47,930	Originally Posted by acbytesla I read what she tweeted and what she wrote and in NO WAY was it antisemitic. Such a joke. Is any criticism about Israel's policies automatically anti-semitic now? Once again, her tweets mentioned in the OP were not about Israel's policies.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

11th February 2019, 08:42 AM	#54
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey According to the Republicans, yes. Their anti-BDS approach is literally about silencing 1A protected speech in favor of protecting a foreign power. They are utterly devoted to a pro-Israel stance that fundamental American legal values are disposable. Why is it wrong for people to try to advance their interests through the political system? ETA: I don't understand the stance. Being pro-Israel is one thing, and there's a good argument to be made that they are the lynchpin of our foreign policy in the middle east, and a bastion of democracy there, but to me that doesn't translate in Israel being above criticism. It isn't just religious motivation, I'm sure.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward Last edited by Belz...; 11th February 2019 at 08:44 AM.

11th February 2019, 08:43 AM	#55
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You lost track already? Holding your allies to a higher standard <> Giving your allies a harder time than your enemies.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 08:43 AM	#56
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,368	Anti-semitic tirade? At worst, its a few questionable tweets, that are marginally anti-semitic if you squint real hard.
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,368

11th February 2019, 08:45 AM	#57
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by ahhell Anti-semitic tirade? At worst, its a few questionable tweets, that are marginally anti-semitic if you squint real hard. If you squint hard enough, you can see anything you want in anything.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 08:48 AM	#58
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,937	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey According to the Republicans, yes. Their anti-BDS approach is literally about silencing 1A protected speech in favor of protecting a foreign power. They are utterly devoted to a pro-Israel stance that fundamental American legal values are disposable. There was a New York Democratic Representative who suggested it was as well. I'm pro-israel to a point. But this is ridiculous.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

11th February 2019, 08:50 AM	#59
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,937	Originally Posted by Belz... "Now"? Good point.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

11th February 2019, 08:51 AM	#60
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by acbytesla There was a New York Democratic Representative who suggested it was as well. I'm pro-israel to a point. But this is ridiculous. Freedom of speech exists only so long as it's convenient.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 08:54 AM	#61
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,937	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Once again, her tweets mentioned in the OP were not about Israel's policies. To suggest that part of the reason Israel enjoys such support is the heavy lobbying ...as in money is hardly anti-semitic. That people immediately take offense and call it ant-semitic is just a way of trying to shut the criticism down.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

11th February 2019, 08:56 AM	#62
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 47,930	Originally Posted by Belz... Holding your allies to a higher standard <> Giving your allies a harder time than your enemies. That is exactly what was being defended here: boycotting, divestment and sanctions for Israel, but not from other more hostile states with worse human rights records.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

11th February 2019, 08:56 AM	#63
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by acbytesla To suggest that part of the reason Israel enjoys such support is the heavy lobbying ...as in money is hardly anti-semitic. That people immediately take offense and call it ant-semitic is just a way of trying to shut the criticism down. Precisely. That's a large part of politics, now: find some way to shut the conversation down so you don't have to address the issues on your "side".
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 08:56 AM	#64
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,937	Originally Posted by Belz... Freedom of speech exists only so long as it's convenient. Its hard to be for freedom of speech when you don't like the speech.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

11th February 2019, 08:56 AM	#66
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,860	Originally Posted by Belz... Precisely. That's a large part of politics, now: find some way to shut the conversation down so you don't have to address the issues on your "side". What are you one of those wishy-washy both sides are the same centrists?
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

11th February 2019, 08:58 AM	#67
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by Ziggurat That is exactly what was being defended here: boycotting, divestment and sanctions for Israel, but not from other more hostile states with worse human rights records. You're really dancing all over the place. One minute we're talking about holding allies to a higher standard, a general idea, and now you're going back to a specific action taken against Israel. Fine, if you think hypocrisy is being engaged in, bring it up to those engaging in it. But don't bring up the hypocrisy of other people to me. It's pointless. Once more: are you going to answer my other questions? I'll take it as a no if you ignore it again.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 08:59 AM	#69
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue What are you one of those wishy-washy both sides are the same centrists? Dude, you're slipping. Here's a better version: What are you one of those wishy-washy, "both sides are the same" idiots who are on the exact middle of all issues?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 09:00 AM	#72
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by Donal Are we banned from observing that lots of legislation has well-heeled private backers, or is that just in this case? This isn't even a criticism of the Israeli government directly. It is criticism that a bill of dubious constitutionality and public value is being pushed by a lobbying group. Hardly an isolated incident for our government. Dude, you're one step away from gassing minorities!
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 09:00 AM	#73
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,860	Originally Posted by Belz... Dude, you're slipping. Here's a better version: What are you one of those wishy-washy, "both sides are the same" idiots who are on the exact middle of all issues? I think my sarcasm muscle is finally starting to feel its age. I just don't the energy for full on wit and pith anymore.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

11th February 2019, 09:00 AM	#74
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145	"hooked nose"
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145

11th February 2019, 09:01 AM	#75
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Criticism of what? Not of Israel's actions, because again, that's not what's even being discussed here. The criticism is of pro-Israel lobbying. But again, Israel is in no way peculiar in that regard. Why should pro-Israel lobbying be criticized but everyone else's gets a pass? That double standard is motivated in no small part by antisemitism. You've got evidence of that last bit, right? The criticism is not just about pro-Israel lobbying, is it, though? It's about lobbying to get the US to ignore Israel's own international law violations.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 09:02 AM	#76
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,937	Originally Posted by Ziggurat That is exactly what was being defended here: boycotting, divestment and sanctions for Israel, but not from other more hostile states with worse human rights records. God...I hate religion. There is no question that Israel's neighbors have horrible human rights records. But that shouldn't mean that Israel's terrible treatment of the Palestinians should be ignored. And it doesn't make what the Congresswoman said anti-semitic.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

11th February 2019, 09:03 AM	#77
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 47,930	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey To be honest, I'm willing to accept a pro-Israel stance as a matter of expediency. The world is a messy place and having any kind of ally in the Middle East is valuable. I won't accept this strain of thought that "Israel can do no wrong" that is so prevalent. I keep having to point this out, but this thread isn't about Israel's actions. None of Omar's tweets mentioned in the OP make any reference to anything Israel has or has not done.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

11th February 2019, 09:05 AM	#79
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,860	Originally Posted by applecorped From anti-Semitism to blackface to rape allegations to false attack hoaxes, Liberals are doing awesome right now. "And as long as the other side is making mistakes, I don't have face anything wrong my side is doing!"
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."