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25th January 2017, 09:28 PM | #361 |
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The auto insurance of the driver, primarily. A catastrophic health insurance policy, could also pick up those costs. What you have described is an extremely rare occurance, at least as compared to the more common scenario: you eat a high-sugar, high-calorie diet that contains few fruits and veggies and lots of processed food and red meat. You inevitably develop health issues as a result. Who should bear the financial responsibility of your health care?
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25th January 2017, 09:47 PM | #362 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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25th January 2017, 09:52 PM | #363 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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26th January 2017, 12:30 AM | #364 |
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I feel exactly the same way about healthcare.
It's almost incomprehensible to me that people can feel the opposite of this, but then I grew up in a world with UHC and it's just what happens here. The nation as a whole benefits from a 'free at the point of use' healthcare system with the government running the system. Ours is very far from perfect, but I'll take what we have over the USA system hands down. The single biggest benefit to UHC in my opinion is that it keeps the prices for healthcare in check. Anyone arguing that the "free market" is better at doing that needs to explain the discrepancy between healthcare costs in the USA and every other developed nation that has UHC available. |
26th January 2017, 02:29 AM | #365 |
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and I largely feel that way about education. I'm glad that my tax contribution gets spent on education, but I don't have kids - I'm just glad that someone else's kids get the opportunity for an education.
Absolutely not. No child should be subjected to the whims of their parents. Not only does that model simply result in education for the rich and neglect for the poor, education can be the springboard to so many other things that should be possible for everyone, not just those that can afford it. There is no doubt that state education systems can and must be improved, but you don't improve those systems by scrapping them. It's hard, but nobody said life was easy. |
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26th January 2017, 02:36 AM | #366 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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26th January 2017, 06:09 AM | #367 |
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26th January 2017, 07:11 AM | #368 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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26th January 2017, 07:20 AM | #369 |
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You highlight exactly the objection to school vouchers. Our taxes do not go toward any single student, but pay for the system.
Just to throw out hypothetical numbers: suppose you pay $1000 in taxes to support the school, and the school has 2000 students total. Now, if you don't have any kids in the school, where does that money go to? Certainly not toward the education of any single individual student. Basically, you are paying $.50 toward each student. That doesn't change when you have kids in the school. Your tax dollars do not only pay for your child, but pay equally for everyone else. So if I also pay $1000 but have a child in the school, that $1000 still does not go toward my own child, it is distributed among all 2000. My child gets 50 cents of it. Another reason we know that our money does not go toward the education of our child is because you don't pay more if you have more kids. If I have two kids in school, one, or none, I still pay the same tax. I don't have to pay more with more kids. Because I am not paying for my kids' schooling. So if you want a voucher, I'm happy to give you a voucher for that 50 cents that you are providing to pay for each of your children. But don't you don't get the full value, not at all. The rest of the education is being paid by everyone else, not by you. We aren't just going to give you that money. |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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26th January 2017, 07:30 AM | #370 |
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The shops that I buy things from should pay for that. They're using the roads, not me.
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26th January 2017, 07:41 AM | #371 |
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If you were without healthcare for the whole year, it is a fairly straightforward calculation.
You either are charged 2.5% of your AGI ($1200 for a person with an AGI of $48000) up to the value of the average bronze plan. OR you are charged on a per person basis - $695 per adult and $347.50 for each child not to exceed $2085. You get charged whichever value is higher. So based on this person's income, the absolute worst case scenario is $2085. If you were only without healthcare for part of the year, you take that value and multiply it by X/12 where X is the number of months you were without insurance (granted it gets a bit more complicated if different people in the household were without insurance for different periods of time). |
26th January 2017, 07:57 AM | #372 |
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Is it a uniquely US thing to talk of provision of health insurance like that's the point and not simply a tool to achieve healthcare?
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26th January 2017, 09:48 AM | #373 |
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26th January 2017, 09:52 AM | #374 |
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I think it is, more or less. There's a historical evolution in there that makes it a different discussion. At a minimum (setting aside all the various small influences that come in to play), Other countries decided that health care should be a social program a long time ago - long before insurance gained solid footing. It didn't get roots in, it didn't grow as a large industry, and it didn't employ hundreds of thousands of people. In the US, we missed that memo. If we'd been paying attention back in the 40s, or heck even the 60s, we wouldn't be in this boat today. We would have been ahead of the majority of technological improvements that have skyrocketed the underlying cost of care. We would have been ahead of the drug innovations that have compounded that cost. And we would have been ahead of comprehensive medical coverage (including routine maintenance and actual insurable events) becoming de rigeur as an employment benefit.
No we have to figure out a way to unravel that knot that doesn't crash the whole thing. |
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26th January 2017, 09:56 AM | #375 |
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26th January 2017, 09:57 AM | #376 |
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Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
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26th January 2017, 10:05 AM | #377 |
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I've sort of wondered the same thing. What percentage of the population has to be uninsured or with very insecure health care before there is a more comprehensive push to deal with coverage and cost issues?
Or is a comprehensive solution a gordian knot that cannot be solved in American culture and political climate? |
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26th January 2017, 10:42 AM | #378 |
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You guys consistently overlook one of the benefits of our patchwork system vs. universal health-care: more people end up dying.
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26th January 2017, 10:44 AM | #379 |
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Wait. If what doesn't work? And if it doesn't work perfectly, is that a reason to crash it? Something like 22 million people got health insurance coverage under the ACA that they couldn't get previously. They might not be happy about their premiums and deductibles, and that should be dealt with, but "crashing" it takes them all back to ground zero. One of the premises of the ACA was that state Medicaid programs would be expanded, but a majority of Republican governors refused to allow it in their states. So a lot of people didn't get lower-cost coverage that should have been available. And there are no controls on the prices providers can charge. Etc.
If you crash it, you need to come up with an alternative, or a lot of people will die, literally. The Repubs have only gotten to the first step and don't really have much interest in the second. |
26th January 2017, 10:46 AM | #380 |
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That's right, its all part of the leftists plan. Pass the ACA to get the republicans to repeal coverage and argue against health care for real red blooded Americans and leave them die so the swarms of foreigners can take over the country filling the voide left behind by overweight diabetic dead americans.
Brilliant! |
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26th January 2017, 12:46 PM | #381 |
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26th January 2017, 12:47 PM | #382 |
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27th January 2017, 08:49 PM | #383 |
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Color me not surprised. The Republicans admit they have no way to replace the ACA in conversation behind closed doors secretly recorded.
Behind closed doors, Republican lawmakers fret about how to repeal Obamacare
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27th January 2017, 10:01 PM | #384 |
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29th January 2017, 05:15 AM | #385 |
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29th January 2017, 12:06 PM | #387 |
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29th January 2017, 03:15 PM | #388 |
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A dentist once talked to me about that. Apparently until the '50s or so, most Americans didn't have health insurance, and health care wasn't as complex or expensive as it is today. You paid your doctor or dentist or hospital bill yourself if you could, or depended on charity otherwise. But as insurance became more common, doctors associated themselves with each other and with hospitals as part of one health care system. But dentists had always functioned basically as proprietors of small, independent businesses, and they elected to keep doing so. They didn't want to give up their independence to contract with insurance companies. I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but it sounds like it makes sense.
And in the U.S., unless your employer provides it as a benefit, dental insurance isn't a very good buy. Coverage limits are low, and premiums are usually pretty high for what you get. Some history here: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...bodies/380703/ |
29th January 2017, 03:33 PM | #389 |
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This article is ancient (2008), which puts it right at the start of the reform that became Obamacare. It's a pretty good explanation, or starting point.
How the American Health Care System Got That Way
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29th January 2017, 06:21 PM | #390 |
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This link provides the relevant data. It's got nothing to do with whether prevention is cheaper than a cure. Other developed countries have universal health care, spend far less on health care and have better outcomes. It's flat-out cheaper to just take care of everybody. The data is with me.
How 'bout one from Column A, two from Column B? Are they, though? Can you provide data? Also, what about my questions re: genetics? Why is it OK to ignore genetic components in obesity, alcoholism, cancer and heart disease? And so how much of a person's cancer treatment should be covered if they have also abused alcohol? Does that apply to all cancers, or just certain ones? Do they get a credit if they got sober before they got cancer? Etc. Look: "Nothing we can do" is pretty cheap. Lung cancer used to be pretty cheap! And, blaming people for pigging out, it's just not that simple. People seek solace where they can find it, and in the U.S. that often means grease, sugar, salt and starch. Most of us get sick and all of us die. I don't see the utility of blaming the patients. |
30th January 2017, 08:09 AM | #391 |
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30th January 2017, 08:12 AM | #392 |
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30th January 2017, 08:14 AM | #393 |
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30th January 2017, 08:16 AM | #394 |
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30th January 2017, 08:18 AM | #395 |
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Exactly we are stuck with these massive and increasing costs because the pain of switching to a more efficient system is too high.
Though of course as your job is an example of one that going to universal health care would like drive out of the job market you are not exactly an unbiased individual. |
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30th January 2017, 08:20 AM | #396 |
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30th January 2017, 08:33 AM | #397 |
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30th January 2017, 09:02 AM | #398 |
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It’s not just the individuals that benefit, employers also benefit greatly from having a large pool of qualified individuals. We have no examples of a high wealth nation that doesn’t first provide education to its citizens so it’s actually pretty reasonable to attribute all the benefits of living in a wealthy country in part to the cost of education so there is a real and significant benefit to everyone.
Police – There are significant segments of American society that do get much of a sense of security from current policing. There is also a big difference in the value of property protected, so someone with $1 billion in property being protected is receiving a much greater benefit than someone with $20 in their pocket. Military – US military spending is vastly greater than security requires. The US spends as much as everyone else in the world combined and the US and it’s direct allies are responsible for about 85% of all global military spending. Like law enforcement, even the security benefits inherently skew towards those with more valuable property to protect. While there is some lifestyle component, the largest part of healthcare cost is luck of the draw. There are also large society wide benefits in having a more mobile work force not ties in place due to healthcare reasons. There is also a large benefit to employers in having less to worry about wrt loosing man hours for health reasons. The largest risks are already socialized either from medical bankruptcy, Medicare, “free” care in emergency rooms that need to be passed on to other patients, or care provided by charitable contribution. |
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30th January 2017, 09:34 AM | #399 |
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30th January 2017, 09:35 AM | #400 |
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