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View Poll Results: For each set of 3 questions, select the one that best reflects your views |
1a) Rural people are more intelligent than urban people in general | 12 | 26.09% | |
1b) Rural people and urban people are equally intelligent | 35 | 76.09% | |
1c) Rural people are less intelligent than urban people in general | 15 | 32.61% | |
2a) The beliefs of rural people are better and more valid that those of urban people in general | 14 | 30.43% | |
2b) The beliefs of rural people and urban people are equally valid | 31 | 67.39% | |
2c) The beliefs of rural people are worse and less valid that those of urban people in general | 20 | 43.48% | |
3a) Rural people are more valuable to the US than urban people | 16 | 34.78% | |
3b) Rural people are equally as valuable to the US as urban people | 37 | 80.43% | |
3c) Rural people are less valuable to the US than urban people | 15 | 32.61% | |
4a) Rural people are in general better people than urban people | 15 | 32.61% | |
4b) Rural people and urban people have the same mix of good and bad people | 35 | 76.09% | |
4c) Rural people are in general worse people than urban people | 13 | 28.26% | |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll |
23rd June 2017, 08:44 AM | #1 |
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Revised Poll: View of Rural vs Urban people
Based on complaint, I am revising this poll. Simplifying, giving significantly less variety in the ways that people can answer. So here's round two. Let's see how it goes.
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23rd June 2017, 08:47 AM | #2 |
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23rd June 2017, 08:55 AM | #3 |
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My answer: OK, now there's a poll.
I'd still say it depends on where you are and who you are talking to. Tell you one thing, though, it's harder to find conversation, but if and when you take interest in the land, you can get something going beyond conversations about the weather. Olive cultivation, btw, is going high-intensity, low resource. There's stuff to talk about.... OMG! Thank God for the internet! |
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23rd June 2017, 08:59 AM | #4 |
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Still a dumb survey slanted to an obvious result.
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23rd June 2017, 09:09 AM | #5 |
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Voted for every answer, because it's all true for some subsets of urban or rural people. I don't think the OP really got the gist of the criticism to the previous poll.
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23rd June 2017, 09:11 AM | #6 |
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23rd June 2017, 09:13 AM | #7 |
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23rd June 2017, 09:20 AM | #8 |
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I got a bit confused with question 3 (a,b and c.).
Bit vague really, are these rural people that are more/less/equal in value to the US in the US or Bangladesh, or elsewhere? None of the other questions was specific. And what does it have to do with politics? |
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23rd June 2017, 09:23 AM | #9 |
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How is it slanted? Seriously - I gave three possible sentiments for each topic, positive, neutral, and negative. There's no slant in there!
It's true that YOU specifically agree that IN GENERAL rural people are more intelligent, equal, and less intelligent? Do you know what the hell "in general" even means"? It's 4 questions, with three options on each. Holy cow, Do you people not even *try* to read with comprehension? |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 09:24 AM | #10 |
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Okay then. I am currently re-assessing my view of the average intelligence of ISF members.
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 09:26 AM | #11 |
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It ain't lack of simplicity that makes this a failed poll.
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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23rd June 2017, 09:26 AM | #12 |
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Zzzz.....
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23rd June 2017, 09:32 AM | #13 |
Illuminator
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23rd June 2017, 09:46 AM | #14 |
Critical Thinker
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It's a "have you stopped beating your wife" kind of poll.
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23rd June 2017, 09:52 AM | #15 |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 09:54 AM | #16 |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 10:04 AM | #17 |
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What's with better/worse and more/less valid? Is there supposed to be a relationship between agreement with a belief and its validity?
Anyway, EC, since you clearly didn't get it last thread: the problem isn't a lack or glut of options, it's that all of the options deal in crass stereotypes, rather transparently so that any answer can be twisted into "evidence" that poll respondents like to stereotype rural people. For example, taken as a population effect 1c) is almost certainly true, if minor, due to the social phenomenon commonly known as "brain drain" - intelligent people are more likely to migrate into the cities for the higher-paying jobs to be had there. I doubt that's what you mean by the option though, and I suspect that if I select it you will argue that I am stereotyping all rural people as less intelligent. Instead, I will give this thread another page or two and then select whichever half of the options have received the fewest votes. Assuming I still care enough to by then. |
23rd June 2017, 10:11 AM | #18 |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 10:16 AM | #19 |
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I read a book earlier this year that emphasized the distinction between a stereotype (which is a conclusion) versus a generalization (which is a prediction).
As you say: due to brain drain, statistically, we can predict on average that rural people are less intelligent. But it would be inappropriate to assume that any specific rural person is unintelligent. Rural regions are certainly as capable of producing intelligent people, but not as good as retaining them, so there are fewer in the population at any given moment. So: the question is 'leading', as it does not distinguish prejudice from objective accurate knowledge on that topic, yet claims a [x] answer 100% represents prejudice. |
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23rd June 2017, 10:20 AM | #20 |
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It's a comparative survey. It's a survey of sentiment and belief. It's not really difficult.
I do so love errant prescience. You might want to tune your ESP. The problem appears to be that some people assume malicious intent, and take umbrage with anything that might suggest some bias. As it stands right now, bias is pretty evident - it's come up repeatedly in many threads, in many ways. It's usually framed as conservative/liberal bias or as republican/democrat bias... but there's a pretty significant amount of correlation between those categorical definitions and rural/urban divides. I rather suspect that you'd object to any poll on the topic, no matter how well designed, no matter how neutrally framed. I could be wrong. And as I've offered to others - if you think you can create a better, less biased, more appropriate poll within the confines of vbulletin with which to measure sentiment regarding rural/urban... by all means do so. I welcome it. If my poll is so terminally broken in your eyes, then go do better. Nice to know that you will purposefully seek to subvert any real attempt to gain an unbiased response. |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 10:21 AM | #21 |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 10:22 AM | #22 |
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I don't think it's a failed poll, exactly. If the objective is to demonstrate that at least one ISF login has a prejudicial view against rural culture, I think it's satisfactory.
I would point out that I'm not sure what the point of the poll is, though, since I think everybody here would have already agreed about that. There's at least one of everything, here. We have chiropactors, homeopaths, David Icke fans, underground tunnel conspiracists, zero point energy popularizers, 9/11 Troofers, white supremacists, &c. |
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23rd June 2017, 10:23 AM | #23 |
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23rd June 2017, 10:30 AM | #24 |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 10:30 AM | #25 |
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I don't need to read your mind to know your intent. Reading your posts are enough:
I don't think my characterization of rural populations as being less intelligent due to the effect of brain drain is a negative view, yet in your pursuit of "the goal" you'd interpret it as such.
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The first and most important thing is defining as precisely as possible what the poll is to measure. Regarding your prompt above: what, precisely, do you mean by "sentiment?" |
23rd June 2017, 10:45 AM | #26 |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 10:49 AM | #27 |
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How can we possibly judge people we haven't met if we don't know what their skin color is?
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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23rd June 2017, 11:00 AM | #28 |
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23rd June 2017, 11:04 AM | #29 |
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Not if it's a bad poll. Bad polls misinform if the intention is to investigate proportions or percentages &c.
But if the claim is "there is at least one..." then this poll is fine, the way an anecdote is fine. It just doesn't shed any light on overall ISF sentiment, since it's not obtained through any sampling technique. There is at least one ISF member who hates skeptics. Nevertheless, the site cannot be regarded as hostile to skeptics. Quite the opposite, I think. |
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23rd June 2017, 11:04 AM | #30 |
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OP forgot option: "Are more or less likely to have voted for Trump". That's all that matters any more.
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23rd June 2017, 11:20 AM | #31 |
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Ahh, I see. Is it also sufficient for me to know the intent of other people, simply by reading their posts? Or is this one of those magical cases where you know, but I can't possibly, because somehow your perceptions are waaaay better than mine?
The Illusion of Asymmetric Insight Are you so certain of how I'd interpret it? What makes you so certain that your mind-reading is so accurate? What makes you think you know me so well? My impression is that there are a fair number of people in ISF who hold certain groups of people in negative regard. Their sentiment toward them is, generally, one that I think most people would view as a negative sentiment if the specific group were any other group. I think there's some fairly clear bias, and that this bias distorts how people think about other people, including the assumptions they make. I also think that many people are unaware of their biases. This isn't exactly abnormal, or even surprising - it's fairly normal human behavior. I think it is fairly objectively true that democrat, liberal, and urban are pretty highly correlated. Also that republican, conservative, and rural are pretty highly correlated. Not 100%, of course, but still clear enough to treat them as not independent attributes. My impression has been that there are a number of people who view rural people in very negative light. There've been many comments made over the last several months that broad-brush "red state" people as "deplorable", useless, worthless, or in some other fashion "undesirable". There are a few posters who are what I would consider extreme, and their views on this are ones that I exclude from consideration, on both sides of that discussion. Specifically, I exclude from consideration of tendency the opinions expressed by logger, BobtheCoward, Tony Stark, and ponderingturtle. On other topics they're fine, but I don't think there'd be much disagreement that they represent pretty outlier views when it comes to politics. I've been surprised by some of the comments coming from people that I had otherwise viewed as more moderate. But again, this is my impression. And my impression is of course, a reflection of my own biases and sensitivities. Tragic Monkey pointed out that that when I perceive a negative sentiment directed at rural or small-town people, I tend to get pretty angry. He's right - and i probably do overreact. But it has also been suggested that nobody on ISF "seriously" holds negative views of rural people. I disagree with that claim. But I can't very well rely on my perception of it can I? I clearly have a bias on that count, I'm clearly more sensitive to the topic and am more likely to perceive a slight when it may not have been intended. The best option I could come up with was a poll. My first attempt was supposed to contain several offsetting options - a negative sentiment on a particular them with either a neutral or positive sentiment on the same theme. There were a couple of cases where I supplied triplets, because there was more nuance. For example, I clustered "less intelligent", "ignorant and uneducated" and "have fewer educational opportunities". I am under no illusion that educational opportunities are disparate for rural locations, and are complicated by religious interference and home schooling. The outcomes of education aren't really up for debate in my opinion... but the underlying belief that "those people" are ignorant hicks or are stupid... that's of interest to me as indicators of sentiment. That said, there were certainly some biases in the first poll. In particular, I had no actual "positive" options. That's a reflection of my own bias - not that I don't believe positive things about rural people, but that I personally believe that there are virtually no ISF posters who hold overall positive sentiments regarding rural people in general. I discounted that as a possibility. My second attempt, this one, tried to address that. For each thematic cluster of attributes (intelligence, belief sets, economic/demographic/cultural value to US, and moral value), I supplied a positive, neutral, and negative sentiment statement. I assumed that would be sufficient to allow people to select which statement from each theme best fits their own view. |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 11:30 AM | #32 |
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No, just less than ideal word choice.
How would I conflate my own poll with someone else's study? Do you really think I can't even keep track of the thread I started and a completely different thread? I'm not after overall ISF sentiment. I'm after, for all intents and purposes, sentiment of people participating in this cluster of discussions. Seriously, the participants of the USA Politics forum are hardly representative of ISF as a whole. I'm well aware that I have both selection and response bias in here. At the very outside, I am looking at this as "% of the people who responded to this poll said y". I'm not generalizing beyond that. There is some degree of "at least one", just not literally that. There've been comments made that "nobody on ISF actually says/believes those things". I disagree. I think there is a non-negligible subset of people who do hold negative views of rural people. There are a couple of outliers who are blatant, but who are also obvious outliers in their own worlds, those are easy to dismiss from consideration of sentiment. But even beyond them, I've seen comments made that I believe were made in earnest, that reflect a negative perception. |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 12:16 PM | #33 |
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I don't see what else you could possibly use to infer intent.
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Why don't you try just asking people? Start with "Rural populations are statistically indistinguishable from any others" as a null hypothesis, and ask where people would disagree and how that influences their political views? |
23rd June 2017, 12:37 PM | #34 |
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I guess it depends on how one defines "intelligence".
Seems like most people here believe that an intelligent person is one who moves to a place with smog-filled skies, overcrowding, higher crime rates, higher taxes, high rent/home prices, higher cost of living, bad water, more traffic, more crowded stores, less friendly people... ...so that they can... ...Live in a small condo that is crammed in between a bunch of other small condos, put themselves in debt, watch homeless people defecate on the sidewalk, listen to police sirens all night, see and smell the pollution, get a job making good money so they can one day retire in the country. Doesn't sound very intelligent to me. What a way to spend one's life. |
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Why bother? |
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23rd June 2017, 12:37 PM | #35 |
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That doesn't answer my questions.
Where did I say this thing? There's a lot of negative stereotyping applied to republicans and democrats that I don't think is warranted. But trying to tackle that set of misconceptions is a fools errand. But not all conservatives are republicans, and not all rural people are republicans, nor are all rural people conservative. So applying negative stereotypes of republicans to rural people is well beyond broad-brushing. Add to that some of the overlapping that appears to be occurring pretty regularly (republicans are bigots, rural people are republicans, so rural people are bigots... Trump voters are deplorable, rural states voted for Trump, so rural people are deplorable... so on). I think it's reasonable to start from the perspective of rural versus urban. I think that topic could feasibly be addressed and find some less vitriolic common ground. Yeah, that won't be subject to endless quibbling about semantic differences and what someone else "really secretly means" by what they wrote. No chance of that! Plus, I'm a numbers kind of a gal. I want numbers I can refer to, not my impression versus someone else's impression! |
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The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian |
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23rd June 2017, 12:43 PM | #36 |
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Why do you think rural people are homogeneous?
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23rd June 2017, 12:56 PM | #37 |
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23rd June 2017, 12:59 PM | #38 |
I would save the receptionist.
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It's a series of bell curves! I could never have guessed.
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23rd June 2017, 01:08 PM | #39 |
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Some questions:
2a-c) Which beliefs? Better/Worse how? 3a-c) Value? What attribute(s) are we expected to evaluate? 4a-c) Better? Worse? At what or in what regard? These basic queries are why the poll is carp. |
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23rd June 2017, 01:37 PM | #40 |
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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