|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
16th January 2017, 01:54 PM | #41 |
Time Person of the Year, 2006
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 19,246
|
|
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
|
16th January 2017, 02:08 PM | #42 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
|
16th January 2017, 02:12 PM | #43 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10,017
|
|
16th January 2017, 02:13 PM | #44 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,511
|
|
16th January 2017, 02:13 PM | #45 |
Time Person of the Year, 2006
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 19,246
|
|
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
|
16th January 2017, 02:16 PM | #46 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
But they would pull it if need be, wouldn't they? Even if that's the case, if I didn't have to pay $700 a month of healthcare I could probably shrug my shoulders at the bill. It's not going to bankrupt me now, but I think it's entirely too much for 45 minutes of work.
Not that I expect our healthcare would completely alleviate me of any form of monthly bill, obviously there would be an increase in taxes. That being said, even $200 more per paycheck in taxes would put extra money in my pocket. That doesn't include any of the bonuses of not having a doctor bill. Yeah, we don't really have that option where I live. North Dakota isn't well known for our dental schools. I could check and see if the University of North Dakota does something like that, but even that's a pain. |
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
16th January 2017, 02:17 PM | #47 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10,017
|
|
16th January 2017, 02:30 PM | #48 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
Posts: 3,229
|
|
16th January 2017, 02:35 PM | #49 |
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,352
|
To Trump, explaining himself to the media is torture. The extent to which Donald Trump believes anything he says to the press and/or intends to actually make it policy is the same as the extent to which a torture victim actually committed whatever crime he confesses to.
Besides, the US is currently being driven by Paul Ryan. Trump will have as much power over policy as Maggie does playing with her steering wheel during the credits of the Simpsons. |
__________________
I have the honor to be Your Obdt. St L. Leader |
|
16th January 2017, 03:19 PM | #50 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
|
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
16th January 2017, 03:39 PM | #51 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
|
I think what's changed, and what will remain changed, is the idea that health insurance is the proper target, not just for federal oversight, but for federal policy - policy directed at shaping the landscape. That's a distinct difference from a few decades ago. Health insurance has become "a thing."
|
16th January 2017, 03:47 PM | #52 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 3,509
|
Loss Leader, exactly. Ryan.
|
__________________
Dominus vo-bisque'em Et cum spear a tu-tu, oh! Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/ Parody: http://karireport.blogspot.com/ Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/ |
|
16th January 2017, 03:53 PM | #53 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 3,509
|
Different things. It was not that hard to win as these presidencies go back and forth, and there was no other Republican who had a fan base.
Being president is entirely different. Watch a few episodes of West Wing. We have a record of Trump saying pretty much anything so until there is a concrete plan there is nothing. Trump healthcare and Trump tax plan are not compatible. |
__________________
Dominus vo-bisque'em Et cum spear a tu-tu, oh! Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/ Parody: http://karireport.blogspot.com/ Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/ |
|
16th January 2017, 04:10 PM | #54 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,571
|
|
16th January 2017, 04:24 PM | #55 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,932
|
dental is also not covered in Australia, except for certain conditions.
But what happens to people with no insurance? what on earth do you do? |
__________________
member formally known as Renmarkable. |
|
16th January 2017, 04:45 PM | #56 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,721
|
|
__________________
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain |
|
16th January 2017, 04:50 PM | #57 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
|
Same thing you do - we do without.
In any of these systems there is a ceiling, above which no one will pay the bill. If the patient has the resources and the will, they can pay. If they don't have the money, they go without. The difference is that, in a publicly funded program, those limits extend equally to all patients (varying, perhaps by condition or medical judgements), while in a looser system the limits are distributed throughout the system - I may hit mine before you hit yours and vice versa. An example will help illustrate this: Suppose you are prescribed a drug that comes in a brand named version and a generic. The publicly funded plan may only pay for the generic. That's a limit. In the US, some plans may pay for the brand and some only for the generic. Presumably, any patient may pay the higher price and buy the brand name drug. Some can't afford it. There are still limits, but they vary by circumstances. |
16th January 2017, 04:58 PM | #58 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
Are you talking about just dental insurance, or medical insurance too? In the U.S., at least, dental insurance isn't that great a deal. Coverage limits are pretty low. People who don't have dental insurance or money to pay the bills usually end up not getting routine cleanings or services for minor issues, then having teeth pulled when more expensive treatments might have saved them.
People who don't have medical insurance often ignore problems as long as possible, then try to find charity care, or they go to emergency rooms, or they put care on plastic and wreck their credit when they're not able to pay. Often they die from problems that might have been controlled with earlier care. That's something the ACA was intended to solve. This operation was originally created to deliver free care in third-world countries. Then they found out that the demand in the U.S. was so great that they had to do many of their clinics here. https://ramusa.org/ http://www.newsweek.com/remote-area-...th-care-287507 |
16th January 2017, 05:11 PM | #59 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 22,131
|
|
16th January 2017, 05:14 PM | #60 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 22,131
|
|
16th January 2017, 05:16 PM | #61 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 22,131
|
|
16th January 2017, 05:30 PM | #62 |
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,352
|
I changed what I think was a mistake on your part. Preventative care is always less expensive than emergency care and is almost always more effective. All preventative healthcare should be free, especially female reproductive and prenatal care. I agree with everything else you wrote. |
__________________
I have the honor to be Your Obdt. St L. Leader |
|
16th January 2017, 06:02 PM | #63 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,932
|
no, we don't do without.
i had an mri at two days notice. what happens if you are like my husband suddenly struck down with a violent gastro bug, which he couldn't manage alone in a caravan? Off to local hospital was kept in for two nights, no charge...mind you he was dreadfully ill. i can go to any public hospital and receive treatment. While wehave paid with our tax contribution it's free up front, |
__________________
member formally known as Renmarkable. |
|
16th January 2017, 06:03 PM | #64 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,932
|
|
__________________
member formally known as Renmarkable. |
|
16th January 2017, 06:21 PM | #65 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
|
All talk, talk, talk, Mr. Trump.
Well, ok, I suppose that's a bit unfair what with the fact that he hasn't taken office yet. If Trump actually means it, I'll give him the credit he's due. If he actually does it, I'll probably vote for him next time. However, unless I see a real plan, I'm going to assume it's part of a marketing strategy, not something he actually intends to do. |
16th January 2017, 07:04 PM | #66 |
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,360
|
You are 100% correct in that preventive medicine is the best and cheapest medicine. I disagree entirely though that it has to be free. I can pay and am entirely willing to pay for my own yearly check-up along with whatever lab tests might be required. I don't need an "insurance " plan to cover this routine expense. Just like I don't need or expect my auto insurance to cover preventive maintenance. What I need insurance for is for expenses that I can't afford.
Beyond that, preventive medicine is, at best, only good for catching things in their early stages when they are cheaper to treat. It doesn't actually prevent anything. The best preventive medicine is good diet, good exercise, good hygiene, not smoking and reducing stress. Those are not things doctors, hospitals and the healthcare system can enforce on patients. I'm sure you'd agree that you can't simply make those things free and thereby prevent illness. What we need is a system that incentivizes good preventive maintenance on ourselves. |
__________________
Hello. |
|
16th January 2017, 07:20 PM | #67 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 8,862
|
Everyone will have access, but 30 million won't be able to afford it.
|
16th January 2017, 07:32 PM | #68 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,903
|
Would a tooth needing to be pulled be covered?
I had a root canal a few years ago and just paid it. I have a thing with teeth, but if I wasn't able to afford it and was in constant pain in Australia. At that point I went into the urgent care room, would they pull it or send me to a doctor? |
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
16th January 2017, 07:33 PM | #69 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
|
This was Australia, right?
There are limits there as well. You can buy health insurance to cover things not covered under the government plan. If you cannot afford to buy those things, you do without, same as us. From http://www.privatehealth.gov.au/healthinsurance/: "In Australia, the public health system Medicare covers most Australian residents for health care. However, Medicare does not cover everything and you can choose to take out private health insurance to give yourself a wider range of health care options and more comprehensive cover. " I wasn't saying there were no services at all, just that there are limits. |
16th January 2017, 08:06 PM | #70 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
One day this may be a very interesting thread. But given Trump's.. um... random utterances... on almost all topics, we here are all just trying to sew a vest on a button (if there is even a button!). It is certain to be interesting to see the process and what comes out the other end. But who knows, including Trump, what he is really thinking of?
But it will also be a tense time for me as a person. As I've mentioned elsewhere on the forum I have very good health insurance due to my company and my willingness to pay a lot in addition to get the best coverage. For 30 years. But now what is keeping my cancer of the last 4 years under control is VERY expensive and it would bankrupt me to lose my health insurance (could you pay $300,000 by the end of this year alone)? If coverage of pre- existing conditions is not included in final Trumpcare, and the disease prevents me from still working, I will lose my existing insurance and no new company would insure me under the circumstances. I will die within months thereafter. There are a lot of other people in the same circumstances. Perhaps anyone here who blithely proposes that lacking adequate health insurance is simply a moral fault of the consumer could explain what I did wrong? |
16th January 2017, 08:12 PM | #71 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
|
|
16th January 2017, 08:39 PM | #72 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
Absolutely! In thinking back about it, it was sure stupid! And I even picked a disease that they were able treat and add years to my life so far, but at a financial cost At minimum if I was going to get "fatally sick" I should have gone for a massive dead-on-arrival heart attack. Much cheaper. BTW I use the quote marks because we are all fatally ill in a sense I just have a better knowledge than many what will get me in the end. But no joke- I feel fine almost all the time and if I stay insured I will be probably be annoying other posters here for a considerable length of additional time.
|
16th January 2017, 09:28 PM | #73 |
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,352
|
|
__________________
I have the honor to be Your Obdt. St L. Leader |
|
16th January 2017, 09:42 PM | #74 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,932
|
If you are like me and don't have health insurance you pay for it yourself, I believe there are clinics for those in welfare but while dentists aren't cheap they are affordable,
As someon with serious dental issues, what would happen was if you aren't able to get into a dentist you would see a g.p., who would give you antibiotics the same as a dentist would. Our dentists really try to save teeth now, which is a good thing, or I would have lost many more. |
__________________
member formally known as Renmarkable. |
|
16th January 2017, 09:43 PM | #75 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,932
|
|
__________________
member formally known as Renmarkable. |
|
16th January 2017, 10:15 PM | #76 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
Being American, I was very lucky indeed! If I had access and finances that would have allowed only low end or even "average" health insurance, my drug co-pay alone would be costing me a huge out of pocket expense every week. And this is not even counting the other procedures I have had.
But of course it would be a privilege to die a capitalist than to live as a socialist! Everyone for themselves- the central principal some in the USA believe is the most moral position of all. But I really didn't want to make this about me- I am doing okay. I just wanted to illustrate that the health insurance we end up with under Trump will have very real consequences and that it is not only an insure-the-poor issue. This will effect everyone here. And we haven't even discussed long term care, such as Alzheimer's disease. Good luck to every one here, but when other posters think about these political issues, please remember- no matter your political viewpoints, you are personally no more immune from the consequences of these changes than I was. |
16th January 2017, 10:28 PM | #77 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,383
|
It's magic! Trump has a magical health care plan. Everyone gets coverage, copays are less, premiums are less. Magic I tell you, he's a magic man.
|
16th January 2017, 11:12 PM | #78 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
|
16th January 2017, 11:28 PM | #79 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,552
|
|
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
|
17th January 2017, 12:05 AM | #80 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 54,890
|
Of course there are limits. But here we have a good, free safety net. If you want elective surgery, dental, optometry, a private hospital room and so on, you either pay the fee, or take out private insurance, as I have. It costs around $50 a week to cover me, my wife and the remaining dependent child.
If I want to go to a doctor or have to go to an ER, it is cost free. Surgery in a public hospital is free, as are emergency medical treatments. I could do without private insurance, but I choose not to. What's wrong with a system like this? |
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|