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8th March 2017, 04:51 AM | #761 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Fails or wins? Think of how much you can make if you have someone who will die with out something only you are in a position to sell them? That is the libertarian dream. Imagine how profitable ambulance companies will be if they can say "Ok I will give you this epipen and save your child but first you have to sign this bill for $25,000" Genius!
That is a libertarian utopia. |
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8th March 2017, 04:56 AM | #762 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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8th March 2017, 05:04 AM | #763 |
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Ah, but because of the free market, dozens of ambulances will actually turn up and as a consequence a bidding war will erupt. After only a few hours of haggling with the various paramedics (who will, like used car salesmen, have to refer each offer "back to their manager"), you'll be able to get an epipen for a few dollars.
Of course your child will have died whilst you were negotiating but it's not like there's no cost to the free market.... Or at least this model will survive until one company drives out all competition and creates monopoly in which case we're back to your example |
8th March 2017, 06:40 AM | #764 |
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8th March 2017, 07:01 AM | #765 |
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I'm starting to think that this will never reach the president's desk. With or without amendments.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/obamacare-gop-divisions |
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8th March 2017, 07:05 AM | #766 |
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8th March 2017, 07:51 AM | #768 |
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8th March 2017, 07:51 AM | #769 |
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8th March 2017, 08:35 AM | #770 |
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Hundreds (possibly thousands) of people negotiate rights of way (called easements) on or through their properties every day in the US. What you anti-free marketeers think are problems are not really problems.
The same thing is true for health care. Only 2% of health care spending in the US is on emergency room care, and only a fraction of that is on immediate, life-threatening injuries or illnesses. Everything else is quite amenable to free market forces. Even the immediately life-threatening stuff can be handled by free market insurance and/or pre-negotiated contracts. It is a myth that the health care sector is somehow special in that a free market can't work properly there. All of the examples that people have provided (Skeptic Ginger in particular) are either silly or represent a tiny fraction of transactions in the health care market (usually they're just silly). Unfortunately, I've learned that it is impossible to change anybody's mind about this myth. Critical thinking really goes out the window when it comes to health care. In part it's because the beliefs are too deeply held. In part it's because the topic can easily become emotional. Everybody has a story of a loved one or a friend who has suffered or died because they were denied (for this reason or that) a treatment that may have helped. |
8th March 2017, 08:47 AM | #771 |
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So here is the question that needs to be asked about this healthcare bill: What is the goal?
I mean, aside from merely being a replacement for the ACA. What is the objective? What SHOULD it be? It seems obvious that the goal of any healthcare system should be to provide healthcare to as many people as possible for as cheap as possible, where cheap can mean a lot of things (costs to the public, cost to the government). To what extent does this bill advance those objectives? Who is going to ask the sponsors these questions? |
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8th March 2017, 08:50 AM | #772 |
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Maybe you think it's impossible to change anybody's mind because it's not as simple as you say it is. I've seen compelling arguments on both sides of the issue, so the jury is out IMHO.
Ultimately I'd ask what is it exactly about any of the types of single payer systems already successfully in use throughout the world that prevents you from even considering the concept? Deep down something tells me there's just a tiny bit of ideology involved. |
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8th March 2017, 08:52 AM | #773 |
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You might think that. There are many other people who think that the goal should be for them, and their nearest and dearest, to get the healthcare they need for the very lowest cost to them personally.
There are others who see healthcare as a means to further their personal agendas whether it's income and wealth distribution, suppressing access to sex ed/contraception/abortions, creating a free market, eliminating government interference in (to them) non-critical areas. |
8th March 2017, 08:54 AM | #774 |
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8th March 2017, 08:56 AM | #775 |
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Yeah, I guess I was thinking about it from the perspective of the government, and, you know, the people who wrote the thing. Certainly they had a goal in mind. I wonder what their goal was?
Aside from, of course, "replacing Obamacare." Personally, I suspect that it really doesn't go any further than that. |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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8th March 2017, 09:00 AM | #776 |
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By your own admission your ideology trumps any considerations of pragmatism or workability. The world you want to live in doesn't actually function. I deeply respect your consistency, but I'm not getting into a conversation where I have to justify people being able to walk outside their own houses |
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8th March 2017, 09:18 AM | #777 |
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8th March 2017, 09:33 AM | #778 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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8th March 2017, 09:41 AM | #779 |
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Rubbish, guess what effects overall health and longevity? That's right, poverty. If you are born into a family in poverty not only will you not get out of poverty yourself your life expectancy will be less than someone born into wealth. As well as being more likely to have a reduced quality of health due to health issues.
This even happens in countries with universal health care, the USA system will tend to exacerbate that problem. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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8th March 2017, 09:53 AM | #780 |
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Single payer is not free market. I believe in the free market to a considerable extent. Externalities always exist, and it is appropriate for the government to make regulations (or impose taxes or even negative taxes) to account for them. But, in general, the free market works because it allows individuals to express their preferences, and it allows the price system to transmit those preferences to provide the optimal incentive for the production of resources.
I have not found any of the arguments for why health care is "different" to be persuasive in the least. I do not believe health care if fundamentally different. I could more easily make an argument that food is different or water, but we have a free market in food, and we could have one in water (although we don't because nobody seems to care all that much about the efficiencies that could be captured there). As for the claim that single payer works in other countries, I will just ask the question "compared to what?" The extent to which something works is relative. The fact that these systems cost less than the US's system is not meaningful for evaluating the potential for a free market in health care for three reasons: (1) The US doesn't have a free market in health care, and hasn't had one since WWII; (2) Comparing US health care costs to other countries' costs is apples to oranges because the US has different demographic profile and a different culture (e.g. Americans have a huge problem with obesity, no pun intended). (3) To a large extent, other countries free-ride off of the US's profligacy in health care; the US health care market is so profitable for drug companies and medical device companies that the US provides the lion's share of the incentive for research and development (and has for 50 years). If the US had gone single payer 50 years ago, I doubt we would have made anywhere near the progress in medical care that we've made. |
8th March 2017, 09:56 AM | #781 |
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8th March 2017, 10:29 AM | #782 |
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8th March 2017, 10:35 AM | #783 |
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I think part of the problem is here, I think many conservatives believe in 'winners and losers.' You don't see this philosophy expressed much in diverse settings like this message board (though you do on other more raucous boards) -- probably because they know it won't play well here -- but I think we have all had private conversations with diehard conservatives where they express this philosophy. It's basically the idea that having a decent health care package is no different, and should be no different, than being able to afford an expensive new car.
That people who are earning a big income or have jobs that provide a generous healthcare benefit are the 'winners' and the government should not be in the position of helping the 'losers' get better healthcare. Especially because the government uses tax money to do it. Diehard conservatives reason, why should I have to help pay to provide healthcare for the losers who can't afford to provide their own? What's the sense of being a winner if the losers don't suffer? I have even seen and heard the thought expressed that, not providing the 'losers' with decent healthcare will benefit society in the long term by getting the losers out of the gene pool. I think this also in part explains the almost fanatical allegiance expressed towards Trump. That for the first time -- at least since Reagan -- conservatives feel they have someone in the White House who "gets it." And they're thrilled! |
8th March 2017, 10:40 AM | #784 |
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8th March 2017, 10:49 AM | #785 |
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The bill has been filed as - I **** you not - "The World's Greatest Healthcare Plan of 2017."
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8th March 2017, 10:51 AM | #786 |
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8th March 2017, 10:59 AM | #787 |
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Adding another mistake in Libertarian thinking: the consumer will make the right choice.
Doctor says person need these tests and meds. Person decides they will take some, not all based on copay outlays. Forgoing meds/tests results in patient getting worse and in the long run needing more care than they would have had they followed the provider's advice. Another scenario, doctor makes more money by prescribing more tests, many unneeded. Another scenario, insurance company drags feet approving of treatment because if patient dies it is less costly to the insurance provider than treating the disease even if treatment would provide a cure. All of these (and more) become problematic when you assume the free market is always the superior option when it comes to health care. |
8th March 2017, 11:02 AM | #788 |
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Back to the ACA, false narrative of the day:
Supposedly the ACA gives you the insurance your government chose vs the GOP wants you to have the insurance you choose. What a load of crap. |
8th March 2017, 11:04 AM | #789 |
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8th March 2017, 11:11 AM | #790 |
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8th March 2017, 11:18 AM | #791 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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8th March 2017, 11:20 AM | #792 |
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/...source=copyurl
It seems that is Pete Sessions bill not the house leadership bill. |
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8th March 2017, 11:22 AM | #793 |
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8th March 2017, 11:24 AM | #794 |
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8th March 2017, 11:33 AM | #795 |
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8th March 2017, 11:38 AM | #796 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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8th March 2017, 12:10 PM | #797 |
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8th March 2017, 12:14 PM | #798 |
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8th March 2017, 12:15 PM | #799 |
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8th March 2017, 12:16 PM | #800 |
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It's even worse than that: In addition to the non-discretionary nature of most of the aggregate health costs*, there's also a financial intermediary. There is a discontinuity between supplier and consumer because of the role that insurance plays. Health insurance in the US has never really qualified as a free market.
* Not the volume of services, if you want more on this distinction let me know |
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