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Tags Affordable Care Act , AHCA , donald trump , health care issues , health insurance issues , obamacare , Trumpcare

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Old 4th April 2017, 05:30 PM   #2361
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About Trump's plan to sabotage the ACA, and then blame Democrats for it....



http://files.kff.org/attachment/Topl...oll-April-2017
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Old 4th April 2017, 05:35 PM   #2362
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I doubt this new plan will even get out of the House. Yeah, it may get the freedom caucus scumbags on board. But it will turn off even more "moderates".

And even if it does get out of the House, it will be DOA in the Senate.
The GOP legislators are embarrassed. After seven years they had no plan. And there is that big cut in government spending they really wanted but never admitted that was their goal.

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Old 4th April 2017, 05:44 PM   #2363
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How would everyone feel if Trump's next proposal was universal catastrophic coverage? Granted I've only really seen this idea thrown out as some kind of super genius master plan involving his first attempt failing so he can get what he really wanted but I don't know how people feel about the idea in general.
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Old 4th April 2017, 06:09 PM   #2364
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The House GOP website says the following:

Quote:
Are you repealing patient protections, including for people with pre-existing conditions?

No. Americans should never be denied coverage or charged more because of a pre-existing condition.
https://housegop.leadpages.co/healthcare/#faqs

And, now it looks like they may well try to make it so Americans can be charged more because of a pre-existing condition.

Lying scum.
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Old 4th April 2017, 07:00 PM   #2365
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
And again, you are utterly unable to move away from your interpretation. You are right, everybody else is wrong, and you can't even consider discussion on the issue.

It's pointless to try and talk to you on this.
Do you believe the fact that millions would lose health coverage while the wealthy get a huge tax-break is just a side effect, and not a feature?
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Old 4th April 2017, 08:20 PM   #2366
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Do you believe the fact that millions would lose health coverage while the wealthy get a huge tax-break is just a side effect, and not a feature?

Yes, and I wouldn't be surprised if Trump thinks that would be an incentive for everyone to become a multi-millionaire or even billionaires and pay for their own health care. Fake President Trump is an idiot who managed to dupe a number of his supporters who were not smart enough to figure out his lame game before he was elected.

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Old 5th April 2017, 02:25 AM   #2367
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Why would I move away from my "interpretation"* that they are trying to pay for tax cuts for the rich by taking healthcare away from tens of millions of Americans?

*In scare quotes because it is a fact not an interpretation.
Again, you are adamant that your opinion is not an opinion; it's factual reality. You are just as dogmatic as any woo-woo.

Tell me, if I apply for a job and you apply for that job as well, is it accurate to say that I'm trying to take away your livelihood and starve your children?
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Old 5th April 2017, 02:45 AM   #2368
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Do you believe the fact that millions would lose health coverage while the wealthy get a huge tax-break is just a side effect, and not a feature?
I would be very surprised if the GOP were moustache-twirling villains whose primary goal was to make rich people richer and make everybody else miserable. Mwa ha ha ha ha!!! Those serfs won't know what happened to them! Come on, now. We can say, and agree, that that's the end result, but to say that it's the desired end in and of itself is nothing but partisan, emotion-based rhetoric.
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Old 5th April 2017, 02:46 AM   #2369
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Do you believe the fact that millions would lose health coverage while the wealthy get a huge tax-break is just a side effect, and not a feature?

If that's just the side effect, what's the actual feature?


What is the point of the repeal if not to achieve fewer taxes for the rich and less healthcare for the poor?

Have they been taking the mickey with such impunity for so long that they've forgotten their needs to be a facade of concern for anyone not making at least a seven figure sum?


Either the results are the intention or they're so unable to grasp cause and effect that they're unfit for office.

Is there another explanation?
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Old 5th April 2017, 02:48 AM   #2370
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
...Tell me, if I apply for a job and you apply for that job as well, is it accurate to say that I'm trying to take away your livelihood and starve your children?
Instead of producing an analogy that doesn't in any way fit the situation, why not just answer what you were asked?

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Do you believe the fact that millions would lose health coverage while the wealthy get a huge tax-break is just a side effect, and not a feature?

If I'm the CEO and I decide to pay my top officers millions of dollars in bonuses, close the plant you work in and lay you off in order to "save money" am I blah-blah-blah?
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Old 5th April 2017, 02:50 AM   #2371
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I would be very surprised if the GOP were moustache-twirling villains whose primary goal was to make rich people richer and make everybody else miserable. Mwa ha ha ha ha!!! Those serfs won't know what happened to them! Come on, now. We can say, and agree, that that's the end result, but to say that it's the desired end in and of itself is nothing but partisan, emotion-based rhetoric.
I don't think they necessarily want to make other people miserable. But if that's what is necessary for their real constituents to get even richer, it is an acceptable price to them.

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Old 5th April 2017, 02:50 AM   #2372
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Instead of producing an analogy that doesn't in any way fit the situation, why not just answer what you were asked?
I did answer the question. Several times. Tony just wants to hate Republicans, so he words it in a way that supports that.
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Old 5th April 2017, 02:54 AM   #2373
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Again, you are adamant that your opinion is not an opinion; it's factual reality. You are just as dogmatic as any woo-woo.
Unless my opinion is also a fact.

Quote:
Tell me, if I apply for a job and you apply for that job as well, is it accurate to say that I'm trying to take away your livelihood and starve your children?
If I was the boss, and fired you so I could keep the money for myself, it would be accurate to say that I wanted to screw you over so I could get richer.

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Old 5th April 2017, 02:55 AM   #2374
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I did answer the question. Several times. Tony just wants to hate Republicans, so he words it in a way that supports that.
False. I hate Republicans because they do things like try to take healthcare away from tens of millions of people to give tax cuts to rich people.

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Old 5th April 2017, 02:56 AM   #2375
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I would be very surprised if the GOP were moustache-twirling villains whose primary goal was to make rich people richer and make everybody else miserable.
I've crossed out the parts that aren't necessarily true. It's a fact that GOP policy is to make rich people richer. That is the aim of all their policies.

Making everyone else miserable is a side effect of that.
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Old 5th April 2017, 02:58 AM   #2376
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I've crossed out the parts that aren't necessarily true. It's a fact that GOP policy is to make rich people richer. That is the aim of all their policies.
All of their policies? Care you demonstrate this?

Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
If I was the boss, and fired you so I could keep the for myself, it would be accurate to say that I wanted to screw you over so I could get richer.
How about you answer my question? My scenario shows you the difference between intent and effect. You chose to ignore that. I would like you to be honest with me and address that.

Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
False. I hate Republicans because they do things like try to take healthcare away from tens of millions of people to give tax cuts from rich people.
Circular reasoning.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:00 AM   #2377
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
All of their policies? Care you demonstrate this?
I think it would be easier to find a policy which don't make rich people richer if there were any. I can't find any.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:02 AM   #2378
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I think it would be easier to find a policy which don't make rich people richer if there were any. I can't find any.
I'll take that as a "no".
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:03 AM   #2379
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I think it would be easier to find a policy which don't make rich people richer if there were any. I can't find any.
How does that anti-abortion stance make the rich richer?
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:06 AM   #2380
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How about you answer my question? My scenario shows you the difference between intent and effect. You chose to ignore that. I would like you to be honest with me and address that.
I think your analogy is a very poor one, so no I won't answer it. Mine is much better.

Quote:
Circular reasoning.
Only if you ignore the very obvious fact that they are trying to make rich people richer at the expense of poor people.

I don't know how it could possibly be more obvious. Do they have to come right out and say it? Obviously they are going to lie because they know that otherwise their plan would be even more unpopular.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:07 AM   #2381
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I think your analogy is a very poor one, so no I won't answer it. Mine is much better.
No, because yours established the INTENT of the boss right off the bat, so of course he's trying to screw you over. You are assuming the intent of the Republicans and using that to support your bias, insisting that it's not an opinion on the matter.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:08 AM   #2382
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
How does that anti-abortion stance make the rich richer?
It gets religious fanatics to vote Republican.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:12 AM   #2383
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, because yours established the INTENT of the boss right off the bat, so of course he's trying to screw you over. You are assuming the intent of the Republicans and using that to support your bias, insisting that it's not an opinion on the matter.
More accurately that he would be trying to get richer and screwing you over would be the means. The same way that Republicans are trying to make rich people richer by screwing poor people over.

I hardly see how it is an opinion. It couldn't possibly be more clear that it is the entire aim of the bill. Rich people get tax cuts. Poor people lose subsidies/Medicaid.

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Old 5th April 2017, 03:16 AM   #2384
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
How does that anti-abortion stance make the rich richer?
That's true. I'm of course wrong here. GOP policies either aim to make rich people richer, or to victimize women, minorities or sexual minorities.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:18 AM   #2385
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
How does that anti-abortion stance make the rich richer?
By defunding Planned Parenthood and using the savings to pay for tax cuts?
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:20 AM   #2386
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This whole argument to me is like trying to argue that Democrats weren't trying to give millions of people healthcare by making rich people a little less rich. Um, yeah, that's exactly what they were trying to do (and did). Probably the biggest reason that Republicans hate it so much. Well maybe besides the fact that Obama signed it into law.

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Old 5th April 2017, 03:20 AM   #2387
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I hardly see how it is an opinion. It couldn't possibly be more clear that it is the entire aim of the bill. Rich people get tax cuts. Poor people lose subsidies/Medicaid.
The opinion part is poor people losing subsidies/Medicaid. I don't think that's a primary aim for more than Ayn Rand worshippers among the GOP - granted, there are a few of those, Ryan included. The main part is lowering taxes on the rich. That's not really an opinion. That's just plainly what the bill is there for.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:22 AM   #2388
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's true. I'm of course wrong here. GOP policies either aim to make rich people richer, or to victimize women, minorities or sexual minorities.
So moustache-twirling villains it is.

You are just as reasonable as logger.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:23 AM   #2389
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So moustache-twirling villains it is.

You are just as reasonable as logger.
Characterize it any way you want. I'm simply describing reality. I'm sorry if it doesn't agree with you.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:23 AM   #2390
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
This whole argument to me is like trying to argue that Democrats weren't trying to give millions of people healthcare by making rich people a little less rich. Um, yeah, that's exactly what they were trying to do (and did).
No, no. They were trying to get more voters by giving away free money rather than encourage people to succeed and take control of their lives for themselves. See how easy it is to twist something to fit one's agenda?

No, of course you don't.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:24 AM   #2391
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The opinion part is poor people losing subsidies/Medicaid. I don't think that's a primary aim for more than Ayn Rand worshippers among the GOP - granted, there are a few of those, Ryan included. The main part is lowering taxes on the rich. That's not really an opinion. That's just plainly what the bill is there for.
I'll grant that may not be the primary aim. But they're still perfectly willing to do it to cut taxes.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:24 AM   #2392
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I'll grant that may not be the primary aim. But they're still perfectly willing to do it to cut taxes.
Absolutely.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:26 AM   #2393
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, no. They were trying to get more voters by giving away free money rather than encourage people to succeed and take control of their lives for themselves.
Does that actually work?




Quote:
See how easy it is to twist something to fit one's agenda?

No, of course you don't.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:29 AM   #2394
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, no. They were trying to get more voters by giving away free money rather than encourage people to succeed and take control of their lives for themselves. See how easy it is to twist something to fit one's agenda?

No, of course you don't.
That's certainly a twist. But fact remains that Democrats were trying to (and did) give people healthcare by raising taxes on the rich. Just the same as it is now a fact that Republicans are now trying to reverse that. Cut taxes by taking away healthcare from people.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:36 AM   #2395
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So moustache-twirling villains it is.

You are just as reasonable as logger.
You know, I think he could pull off a bit of mustache twirling.....
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:37 AM   #2396
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I think it would be way worse for Trump and the Republicans if they pass this garbage bill than if they just let it die. People will be absolutely outraged if they do pass it and it will hurt them immensely in 2018 and 2020.

But still, I want them to fail. It wouldn't even affect me really, but I don't want so many people hurt just so Republicans can cut taxes for rich people. Even if it may help Democrats.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:45 AM   #2397
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
How does that anti-abortion stance make the rich richer?
Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
It gets religious fanatics to vote Republican.
I see. As long as we can imagine some link to finances somewhere/somewhen, then it's still an example of "making the rich richer."

I should have known. Those guys are just too clever for me, what with all the layers in the onion. It's almost as bad as those Jewish bankers.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:48 AM   #2398
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I see. As long as we can imagine some link to finances somewhere/somewhen, then it's still an example of "making the rich richer."

I should have known. Those guys are just too clever for me, what with all the layers in the onion. It's almost as bad as those Jewish bankers.
The Devil's Advocate "Look at how skeptical I am" routine is getting a bit weak-sauce.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:49 AM   #2399
marplots
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
By defunding Planned Parenthood and using the savings to pay for tax cuts?
I thought you knew. Planned parenthood and their cheap clinics are how the rich have been saving money on pregnancy services. PP already makes them richer!

There's no escape. Even if you murdered the rich in their sleep, their insurance would just make their heirs even richer.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:50 AM   #2400
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I see. As long as we can imagine some link to finances somewhere/somewhen, then it's still an example of "making the rich richer."

I should have known. Those guys are just too clever for me, what with all the layers in the onion. It's almost as bad as those Jewish bankers.
The whole abortion thing wasn't much of an election issue until Republicans decided they could use it as a wedge. It worked.
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