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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 7th December 2018, 01:34 PM   #641
Nessie
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Just wondering if members of another forum this forum as well.

The denier argument that the Nazis would have used wood gas powered engines for the gas chambers because gasoline was scarce and since witnesses say gasoline engines were used, therefore the witnesses lied, is so riddle with flaws it beggars belief.
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Old 7th December 2018, 08:16 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Just wondering if members of another forum this forum as well.

The denier argument that the Nazis would have used wood gas powered engines for the gas chambers because gasoline was scarce and since witnesses say gasoline engines were used, therefore the witnesses lied, is so riddle with flaws it beggars belief.
Another "if I ran the zoo" argument from incredulity.

The one I remember was the poster who maintained that the most efficient way to have carried out mass exterminations would be by marching the victims into disused mines and flooding them, and since there was no record of this, there were no mass exterminations.

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Old 8th December 2018, 03:16 AM   #643
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I just want to see if what I post here is also being monitored by the deniers at another forum.

The Nazis would not have done it that way is a common argument from incredulity used by deniers. It covers the unevenly spaced holes in the roof of krema I, to why not use train delousing facilities and leave the people on the trains.

Since deniers ignore the evidence (it is all lies/faked etc) I do think that attacking their arguments is the best way to deal with denial.
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Old 8th December 2018, 06:14 AM   #644
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Nazis would not have done it that way is a common argument from incredulity used by deniers.
Yep - usually taking the form of, 'But why didn't they just...' Well, sorry but the evidence (that's ALL the evidence taken TOGETHER and AT THE SAME TIME - see the deniers running for the hills! ) shows that they didn't do that and that they did do something else. Then they'll go quiet for a bit then come back with, 'But I don't get it. Why didn't they just...' It's like a 'reset' button.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 08:11 AM   #645
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Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book has been translated into English. There has been little discussion of the book at denier forms. Below, however, is a listing of articles on Mattogno's new book published at the Holocaust Controversies blog.

Mattogno takes on the Jäger Report (well, he tries) - Roberto Muehlenkamp

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5 (1)

Part 5 (2)

publishing history by Roberto Muehlenkamp

Germar Rudolf’s foreword to Mattogno’s Einzatzgruppen book

articles by Jon Harrison

Mattogno's Distortion of Orders in his Italian Einsatzgruppen Book

Some Initial Observations on Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen Handbook

Mattogno's Distortions on the Crimea

Mattogno on the Killing of 4,273 Children in Kaunas [Kovno]

Mattogno on Riga, Part One: Keine Liquidierung Revisited - Andy Mathis

Mattogno on Riga, Part One: Keine Liquidierung Revisited

Mattogno on Riga, Part Two: Phone Calls in Riga, Prague, and Berlin

Mattogno on Riga, Part Three: Hierarchies Are Hard

Mattogno on Riga, Part Four: Polishing a Turd

articles by Hans Metzner

SK Lange and Mattogno's Italian Book on the Einsatzgruppen

Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part I: A Dilettante at Work

(more to come)
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Last edited by LemmyCaution; 22nd December 2018 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 01:51 PM   #646
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and a new article on Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book, from Hans Metzner: Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part II: Mental Degeneration or Dishonesty, Your Choice!
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Old 22nd December 2018, 04:56 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
and a new article on Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book, from Hans Metzner: Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part II: Mental Degeneration or Dishonesty, Your Choice!
Thanks, Lemmy!




P.S. What happened to the scrapbook pages gal? And you moved the Donnydämmerung thread!
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Old 22nd December 2018, 05:45 PM   #648
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Good question about Gen Baugher. I'll ask around.

Donnydämmerung got moved to the Politics thread to focus the Holocaust, Genocide, and Mass Violence thread better. The Donny thread now has 27,526 replies!
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Old 22nd December 2018, 08:03 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Thanks, Lemmy!




P.S. What happened to the scrapbook pages gal? And you moved the Donnydämmerung thread!
I think she passed on. She was in her 80’s.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 08:09 PM   #650
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never mind, Jeffk beat me to it
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Old 25th January 2019, 11:18 PM   #651
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Saw this Holocaust related item:

Hitler-owned book hints at plans for North American Holocaust



https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/25/ameri...ntl/index.html

Has anyone ever read this or seen a summary of it?
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Old 26th January 2019, 07:51 AM   #652
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@Hans
Sorry, unless you've got a photograph of Hitler holding the book, a sound recording of him saying he owned the book and film footage of him reading the book in his library then there's no evidence that he ever went anywhere near it /holocaustdenier
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Old 26th January 2019, 10:01 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
@Hans
Sorry, unless you've got a photograph of Hitler holding the book, a sound recording of him saying he owned the book and film footage of him reading the book in his library then there's no evidence that he ever went anywhere near it /holocaustdenier
If Germany had beaten the U.S. and USSR (Pretty way out assumptions) one could deduce that a Holocaust would be planned for the U.S. as well as that taking place in Europe.
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Old 26th January 2019, 07:50 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
@Hans
Sorry, unless you've got a photograph of Hitler holding the book, a sound recording of him saying he owned the book and film footage of him reading the book in his library then there's no evidence that he ever went anywhere near it /holocaustdenierDavid Irving.
Fixed that for you.....
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Old 26th January 2019, 07:56 PM   #655
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Fixed that for you.....
I'm not sure all that would even be enough for Irving - he'd need a document signed by every member of the Nazi party showing a DIRECT ORDER from Hitler to bring him the book and his reading glasses
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Old 27th January 2019, 01:56 AM   #656
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Saw this today. It seems much more education is needed, at least in the UK.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47015184

Quote:
Five per cent of UK adults do not believe the Holocaust took place and one in 12 believes its scale has been exaggerated, a survey has found.
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Old 27th January 2019, 03:59 AM   #657
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I have never met anyone who denied the Holocaust. When someone at work asked what the Holocaust was there was universal surprise she did not know as everyone else did.
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Old 27th January 2019, 08:18 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I have never met anyone who denied the Holocaust. When someone at work asked what the Holocaust was there was universal surprise she did not know as everyone else did.
I met lots of non-western college students who had either no knowledge of the holocaust or a deeply flawed idea about what had occurred - given I was teaching mainly Muslim students in the ME that was to be expected. Most western students had some knowledge about it and I did run across a few who thought it was 'faked' or trumped up.

I once worked with an Indian (Madras University grad) economics teacher who was an extreme fundamentalist Hindu - he had absolutely no information about western history at all except a rather biased view of British history and his country. He considered any history that was not centered on India to be 'useless'.

I taught some Saudi technical college students who had only the vaguest idea of any aspect of WWI or WWII.

In that group was a young man whose family was in a clan that held to the belief that if something was not mentioned in the Qu'ran or one branch of the Hadith it didn't exist - based on that they denied the existence of the Americas......
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Old 27th January 2019, 10:46 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Saw this today. It seems much more education is needed, at least in the UK.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47015184
Speaking from personal experience, I think the problem is that the 'argument' for Holocaust denial can be made to be extremely compelling for those who don't really know how historical evidence works. I saw a video by Anthony Lawson which was (I now know) the usual HD trick of repeating things like, 'There still isn't one single piece of physical evidence that shows...' etc. If you don't know about consilience (as I didn't), then that sort of rhetoric is extremely powerful.

I was never actually convinced that there was anything in the claims because I immediately did a google search on them (and as I'm sure you know this very quickly leads to them all being comprehensively debunked), but the fact is after watching that video I did think, 'Wow. Maybe there's something to this after all - maybe it is being suppressed' etc. and that kind of casual, lazy 'questioning' of the Holocaust will be what surveys like that are measuring: the results of idle office conversations with someone who saw something on twitter and says, 'Did you know that the wooden doors at Auschwitz couldn't have been used as gas chamber doors? That 'six million' number was changed from 1 million overnight. Zyklon B can't actually be used to kill humans. There weren't any holes in the roof. I know! I couldn't believe it either!' and so on.

The problem is that the deniers know their market and know that saying, 'There isn't ONE SINGLE piece of evidence that directly proves the Holocaust happened' will convince a lot more untrained people than saying, 'There are a million things that indirectly prove it happened'.
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:26 AM   #660
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Speaking from personal experience, I think the problem is that the 'argument' for Holocaust denial can be made to be extremely compelling for those who don't really know how historical evidence works. I saw a video by Anthony Lawson which was (I now know) the usual HD trick of repeating things like, 'There still isn't one single piece of physical evidence that shows...' etc. If you don't know about consilience (as I didn't), then that sort of rhetoric is extremely powerful.

I was never actually convinced that there was anything in the claims because I immediately did a google search on them (and as I'm sure you know this very quickly leads to them all being comprehensively debunked), but the fact is after watching that video I did think, 'Wow. Maybe there's something to this after all - maybe it is being suppressed' etc. and that kind of casual, lazy 'questioning' of the Holocaust will be what surveys like that are measuring: the results of idle office conversations with someone who saw something on twitter and says, 'Did you know that the wooden doors at Auschwitz couldn't have been used as gas chamber doors? That 'six million' number was changed from 1 million overnight. Zyklon B can't actually be used to kill humans. There weren't any holes in the roof. I know! I couldn't believe it either!' and so on.

The problem is that the deniers know their market and know that saying, 'There isn't ONE SINGLE piece of evidence that directly proves the Holocaust happened' will convince a lot more untrained people than saying, 'There are a million things that indirectly prove it happened'.

Good post and well put.

Also, as time goes on, and three are less and less people around who either experienced it first hand, or who have parents and relatives who did, it will become easier for your 'casual, lazy 'questioning' suggestion to become more common.
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Old 28th January 2019, 10:53 AM   #661
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Holocaust Revisionist Report by Holocaust Remembrance Project, published on Friday:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/c1aa5...f80ed6720c.pdf (1.8 Mb)
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Old 29th January 2019, 12:31 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Holocaust Revisionist Report by Holocaust Remembrance Project, published on Friday:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/c1aa5...f80ed6720c.pdf (1.8 Mb)
Thanks, that looks good (or really, really, really bad depending on how you look at it )
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Old 29th January 2019, 10:41 AM   #663
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Holocaust Revisionist Report by Holocaust Remembrance Project, published on Friday:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/c1aa5...f80ed6720c.pdf (1.8 Mb)
Thanks for posting that CE. Great read but 'sad' too.
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Old 29th January 2019, 11:58 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Good post and well put.

Also, as time goes on, and three are less and less people around who either experienced it first hand, or who have parents and relatives who did, it will become easier for your 'casual, lazy 'questioning' suggestion to become more common.
That is a real problem. As the living memory of Fascism and what it was like fade, it gives a new opening for Fascism to make a comeback.
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:52 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book has been translated into English. There has been little discussion of the book at denier forms. Below, however, is a listing of articles on Mattogno's new book published at the Holocaust Controversies blog.

Mattogno takes on the Jäger Report (well, he tries) - Roberto Muehlenkamp

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5 (1)

Part 5 (2)

publishing history by Roberto Muehlenkamp

Germar Rudolf’s foreword to Mattogno’s Einzatzgruppen book

articles by Jon Harrison

Mattogno's Distortion of Orders in his Italian Einsatzgruppen Book

Some Initial Observations on Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen Handbook

Mattogno's Distortions on the Crimea

Mattogno on the Killing of 4,273 Children in Kaunas [Kovno]

Mattogno on Riga, Part One: Keine Liquidierung Revisited - Andy Mathis

Mattogno on Riga, Part One: Keine Liquidierung Revisited

Mattogno on Riga, Part Two: Phone Calls in Riga, Prague, and Berlin

Mattogno on Riga, Part Three: Hierarchies Are Hard

Mattogno on Riga, Part Four: Polishing a Turd

articles by Hans Metzner

SK Lange and Mattogno's Italian Book on the Einsatzgruppen

Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part I: A Dilettante at Work

(more to come)
SO Richard Rhodes "Masters Of Death" is in no danger of being replaced as the go to book on the Einsatzgruppen?
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Old 31st January 2019, 08:44 AM   #666
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Speaking from personal experience, I think the problem is that the 'argument' for Holocaust denial can be made to be extremely compelling for those who don't really know how historical evidence works. I saw a video by Anthony Lawson which was (I now know) the usual HD trick of repeating things like, 'There still isn't one single piece of physical evidence that shows...' etc. If you don't know about consilience (as I didn't), then that sort of rhetoric is extremely powerful.

I was never actually convinced that there was anything in the claims because I immediately did a google search on them (and as I'm sure you know this very quickly leads to them all being comprehensively debunked), but the fact is after watching that video I did think, 'Wow. Maybe there's something to this after all - maybe it is being suppressed' etc. and that kind of casual, lazy 'questioning' of the Holocaust will be what surveys like that are measuring: the results of idle office conversations with someone who saw something on twitter and says, 'Did you know that the wooden doors at Auschwitz couldn't have been used as gas chamber doors? That 'six million' number was changed from 1 million overnight. Zyklon B can't actually be used to kill humans. There weren't any holes in the roof. I know! I couldn't believe it either!' and so on.

The problem is that the deniers know their market and know that saying, 'There isn't ONE SINGLE piece of evidence that directly proves the Holocaust happened' will convince a lot more untrained people than saying, 'There are a million things that indirectly prove it happened'.
It is only if you ignore all the witnesses who say they saw a gassing take place, that there is a claim that there is not one SINGLE piece of evidence for the Holocaust.

I have found that the demand for a single piece of evidence revolves around a Hitler Order, or wanting to see a mass grave. Like Hitler would have signed an order saying, gas all Jewish people and it would be accepted as authentic, or you can somehow see a mass grave where the bodies had been exhumed. cremated and then buried in a haphazard way back into the ground.

I think the best way to stop denial in its tracks is to ask to see evidence of an alternative. Ask a denier to provide evidence of what did happen to those who were not selected to work on arrival at the AR camps. Deniers hate that.
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Old 31st January 2019, 11:06 AM   #667
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is only if you ignore all the witnesses who say they saw a gassing take place, that there is a claim that there is not one SINGLE piece of evidence for the Holocaust.

I have found that the demand for a single piece of evidence revolves around a Hitler Order, or wanting to see a mass grave. Like Hitler would have signed an order saying, gas all Jewish people and it would be accepted as authentic, or you can somehow see a mass grave where the bodies had been exhumed. cremated and then buried in a haphazard way back into the ground.

I think the best way to stop denial in its tracks is to ask to see evidence of an alternative. Ask a denier to provide evidence of what did happen to those who were not selected to work on arrival at the AR camps. Deniers hate that.
This may be the case, but to deny all the imagery of the time, flies in the face of a denier's belief.
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Old 31st January 2019, 11:27 AM   #668
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
This may be the case, but to deny all the imagery of the time, flies in the face of a denier's belief.
Since there are lots of photos and film of mass shootings, only the more extreme deniers deny those. There are obviously no photos or film of mass (or any) gassings and that is the main target for deniers.

They find all the evidence from witnesses easy to dismiss, since they are mainly anti-Semitic they have no problem declaring all the Jewish witnesses as liars and the Nazis as coerced by Jews (somehow).

If there is one piece of evidence about gas chambers that I think is pretty compelling, it is this;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-...ssac0446.shtml

A worksheet by a German foreman about constructing a gas chamber in either Krema IV or V.
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Old 31st January 2019, 05:36 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I have found that the demand for a single piece of evidence revolves around a Hitler Order, or wanting to see a mass grave. Like Hitler would have . . .
Not one but 34 pieces of evidence linking the Führer to the mass murder of Jews:

1. Gestapo Müller, directive on Einsatzgruppen reports, 1 August 1941 (Fleming, pp 109-110, Unwritten, p 124, http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf)

2. Himmler, instructions to Bradfisch in Minsk, mid-August 1941 (Fleming, pp 50-51)

3. Himmler, explanation, late summer 1941, as related in 1962 by Horst Bender, dept III Himmler’s staff and SS and Police Judge (Fleming, p 51)

4. Himmler, explanation, September 1941, Streckenbach 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

5. Himmler, explanation, before Heydrich’s death, date unclear, Gottlob Berger 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

6. Jeckeln, instructions from Himmler, 10-11 November 1941 (Fleming, p 44)

7. Hitler, from notes on meeting with Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, 28 November 1941 (Fleming, pp 102-105; https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/v...t=constructing)

8. Goebbels’ diary, 13 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 154; https://www.hdot.org/longrole/# - http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Mi...20-%203875.pdf)

9. Rosenberg diary, 14 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 155)

10. Frank speech, 16 December 1941 (http://www.holocaustresearchproject....e/removal.html, Gerlach's Wannsee article)

11. Himmler diary, 18 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 155)

12. Eichmann interrogation, preceding Wannsee Conference - late 1941? (Fleming, p 67)

13. Goebbels diary, 14 February 1942 (Unwritten, p 157)

14. Goebbels diary, 2 March 1942 (https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/v...t=constructing)

15. Goebbels diary, 20 March 1942 (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/...cerpts-01.html)

16. Goebbels diary, 27 March 1942 (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/...cerpts-01.html - Fleming pp 62-63, 111, Unwritten, pp 172-173)

17. Wisliceny IMT testimony re: Eichmann & Final Solution order, April 1942 (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-03-46.asp)

18. Heydrich, Prague conference on SD and Intelligence Service responsibilities, May 1942, declaration of Otto Wagner 1979 (Fleming p 60)

19. Goebbels’ diary, 29 May 1942 (Unwritten, p 184)

20. Himmler, explanation, early summer 1942, Streckenbach 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

21. Himmler to Gottlob Berger, 28 July 1942 (https://www.hdot.org/longrole/; Fleming, p 112)

22. Himmler, announcing that armaments workers were to be collected into camps, 9 October 1942 (Unwritten, p 189; Fleming, pp 44, 128)

23. Himmler, notes on conversation with Führer, follow-up notes to Müller - on France, 6 and 10 December 1942 (Unwritten, pp 109-110; Fleming, p 66)

24. Meldung 51, 3 December 1942, Himmler to Hitler (http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf; Unwritten, p 150)

25. Korherr report for Hitler, January 1943 (Fleming, pp 135-139)

26. First Schloss Klessheim meeting, 17-18 March 1943 (Fleming, pp 157-166; Unwritten, p 203; Longerich Irving Trial https://www.hdot.org/longrole/; http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf)

27. Hitler, 8 June 1943 (1384-PS Red Series vol III, p 959; HC White Paper)

28. Himmler speech, Posen, to generals, 26 January 1944, declaration of Freiherr von Gersdorff 1979 (Fleming, pp 52-53)

29. Himmler, Sonthofen speech, 24 May 1944 (Fleming, p 54)

30. Himmler, secret speech, 21 July 1944 (Longerich Irving Trial https://www.hdot.org/longrole/)

31. Eichmann, Sassen interviews, “. . . the order of the one-time Fuhrer of the German Reich, Adolf Hitler . . .” (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/germ...mannintro.html)

32. Eichmann memoir/papers, Ich (https://www.hdot.org/vanpelt/#note_vanPelt_xi2n1012)

33. Wetzel's 25 October 1941 letter and his 1961 Hannover testimony

34.Ribbentrop to Veesenmayer, 10 July 1944 (Braham, p 1033; Levine Wallenberg, pp 193-194)


https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtop...666649#p666649
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Old 31st January 2019, 06:53 PM   #670
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The book I previously mentioned, "Masters of Death" by Richard Rhodes, is easily the best book about the Einsatzgruppen.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:16 AM   #671
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
Not one but 34 pieces of evidence linking the Führer to the mass murder of Jews:

1. Gestapo Müller, directive on Einsatzgruppen reports, 1 August 1941 (Fleming, pp 109-110, Unwritten, p 124, http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf)

2. Himmler, instructions to Bradfisch in Minsk, mid-August 1941 (Fleming, pp 50-51)

3. Himmler, explanation, late summer 1941, as related in 1962 by Horst Bender, dept III Himmler’s staff and SS and Police Judge (Fleming, p 51)

4. Himmler, explanation, September 1941, Streckenbach 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

5. Himmler, explanation, before Heydrich’s death, date unclear, Gottlob Berger 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

6. Jeckeln, instructions from Himmler, 10-11 November 1941 (Fleming, p 44)

7. Hitler, from notes on meeting with Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, 28 November 1941 (Fleming, pp 102-105; https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/v...t=constructing)

8. Goebbels’ diary, 13 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 154; https://www.hdot.org/longrole/# - http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Mi...20-%203875.pdf)

9. Rosenberg diary, 14 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 155)

10. Frank speech, 16 December 1941 (http://www.holocaustresearchproject....e/removal.html, Gerlach's Wannsee article)

11. Himmler diary, 18 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 155)

12. Eichmann interrogation, preceding Wannsee Conference - late 1941? (Fleming, p 67)

13. Goebbels diary, 14 February 1942 (Unwritten, p 157)

14. Goebbels diary, 2 March 1942 (https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/v...t=constructing)

15. Goebbels diary, 20 March 1942 (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/...cerpts-01.html)

16. Goebbels diary, 27 March 1942 (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/...cerpts-01.html - Fleming pp 62-63, 111, Unwritten, pp 172-173)

17. Wisliceny IMT testimony re: Eichmann & Final Solution order, April 1942 (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-03-46.asp)

18. Heydrich, Prague conference on SD and Intelligence Service responsibilities, May 1942, declaration of Otto Wagner 1979 (Fleming p 60)

19. Goebbels’ diary, 29 May 1942 (Unwritten, p 184)

20. Himmler, explanation, early summer 1942, Streckenbach 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

21. Himmler to Gottlob Berger, 28 July 1942 (https://www.hdot.org/longrole/; Fleming, p 112)

22. Himmler, announcing that armaments workers were to be collected into camps, 9 October 1942 (Unwritten, p 189; Fleming, pp 44, 128)

23. Himmler, notes on conversation with Führer, follow-up notes to Müller - on France, 6 and 10 December 1942 (Unwritten, pp 109-110; Fleming, p 66)

24. Meldung 51, 3 December 1942, Himmler to Hitler (http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf; Unwritten, p 150)

25. Korherr report for Hitler, January 1943 (Fleming, pp 135-139)

26. First Schloss Klessheim meeting, 17-18 March 1943 (Fleming, pp 157-166; Unwritten, p 203; Longerich Irving Trial https://www.hdot.org/longrole/; http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf)

27. Hitler, 8 June 1943 (1384-PS Red Series vol III, p 959; HC White Paper)

28. Himmler speech, Posen, to generals, 26 January 1944, declaration of Freiherr von Gersdorff 1979 (Fleming, pp 52-53)

29. Himmler, Sonthofen speech, 24 May 1944 (Fleming, p 54)

30. Himmler, secret speech, 21 July 1944 (Longerich Irving Trial https://www.hdot.org/longrole/)

31. Eichmann, Sassen interviews, “. . . the order of the one-time Fuhrer of the German Reich, Adolf Hitler . . .” (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/germ...mannintro.html)

32. Eichmann memoir/papers, Ich (https://www.hdot.org/vanpelt/#note_vanPelt_xi2n1012)

33. Wetzel's 25 October 1941 letter and his 1961 Hannover testimony

34.Ribbentrop to Veesenmayer, 10 July 1944 (Braham, p 1033; Levine Wallenberg, pp 193-194)


https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtop...666649#p666649
You can add Mein Kampf and Hitler's own speeches to that list. Deniers react by claiming extermination, liquidation etc actually means relocation and resettlement, or it only referred to partisans.

They then demand to see an order to gas the Jews....and back we go to the start.
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Old 1st February 2019, 04:14 AM   #672
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
Not one but 34 pieces of evidence linking the Führer to the mass murder of Jews
'Linking'? 'Linking'? Oh, no no no. It has to be film footage of Hitler saying 'I want to exterminate the Jews' and even then footage can be faked so we would need DNA samples (or something) of the actual air that his mouth was producing when he said it, and even then those results can be faked.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 02:12 AM   #673
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The irony is that those deniers run a mile when asked to evidence what did happen.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 06:56 AM   #674
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>>You can add Mein Kampf and Hitler's own speeches to that list.

Those are of a different category. The items on the list I posted are meant to connect Hitler to actions or to explain what was done, sort of like what Longerich did in his book The Unwritten Order, not to express his thoughts or threats he made. But one could indeed list statements made by Hitler and his circle of that variety:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...rmination.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...hitler-30.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...tatements.html
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Old 3rd February 2019, 06:58 AM   #675
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
'Linking'? 'Linking'? Oh, no no no. It has to be film footage of Hitler saying 'I want to exterminate the Jews' and even then footage can be faked so we would need DNA samples (or something) of the actual air that his mouth was producing when he said it, and even then those results can be faked.
And that footage must be on YouTube and show mass graves in the background.
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Old 6th February 2019, 02:48 PM   #676
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The irony is that those deniers run a mile when asked to evidence what did happen.
Well, on the occasions when they tried to prove their points in court where they have to produce evidence , (David Irving being the most prominent) it has
not gone well for the Deniers.
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:44 AM   #677
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A blogger named Alison Chabloz has been convicted for singing a song mocking the holocaust in the UK. Free speech does not exist in Britain. Saying it is "offensive" or "in poor taste" is rubbish because the UK has a long tradition of satire including the magazine Punch and comedians such as Monty Python.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12299
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:56 AM   #678
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Free speech does not exist in Britain.
Really? Not anywhere, in any form?
Or does it exist, within certain legally-defined (and generally accepted) limits?

When was the Human Rights Act repealed?
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Old 19th February 2019, 02:14 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
A blogger named Alison Chabloz has been convicted for singing a song mocking the holocaust in the UK. Free speech does not exist in Britain. Saying it is "offensive" or "in poor taste" is rubbish because the UK has a long tradition of satire including the magazine Punch and comedians such as Monty Python.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12299
Again it needs stating to people like you "Free Speech" does not mean "Freedom from Consequences of Speech". Even in the USA you can't go shouting "Fire" in a crowded movie theatre when there is no fire. You can think what you like in the UK. You can say what you like to family, friends and like minded individuals. But if you are foolish enough to publish views calling for violence or bigotry in public fora you face the possibility of prosecution because there are laws against that kind of thing. Reading her statements in the article you linked to it is clear she is Anti Jewish and believes all the ridiculous tropes that have been propagated in Europe for more than a thousand years. She isn't presenting historical evidence in a way which can be evaluated and add to our knowledge of events, she is just being bigoted, anti-Jewish and inflammatory. Again she has a right to think that way but if she puts it in the public sphere she can be challenged on it. That is what happened and seeing her odious take on what happened to the Jews between 1933 - 1945 (as well as gays, socialists, Roma, the mentally impaired and resistance groups like the White Rose) it seems that she received a correct judgement in a UK Court of Law.
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Old 19th February 2019, 04:37 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
A blogger named Alison Chabloz has been convicted for singing a song mocking the holocaust in the UK. Free speech does not exist in Britain. Saying it is "offensive" or "in poor taste" is rubbish because the UK has a long tradition of satire including the magazine Punch and comedians such as Monty Python.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12299
Her songs were not satirical, she just claimed they were to avoid prosecution.
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