[Merged] Venezuela on the edge of ending.... - Page 11

ohms · 24th January 2019, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Well, that went well. Did he ask the same of Canada?

And what about Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Guatemala, Honduras, Panama, Paraguay and Peru?

MRC_Hans · 24th January 2019, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Dumb,dumb move.
Now the US will give the Venezuelan diplomats in the US there walking papers (as much as I hate Trump, I think any US president would react in this way.it's SOP in diplomacy) and the two goverments will communicate by back channels.
...

Instead, Trump has asked the staff to stay, on the grounds that he does not accept Maduro's authority to send them out.

Well .... at least Trump makes sure we live in interesting times ...

Hans

Henri McPhee · 24th January 2019, 04:18 AM

That's America interfering with Venezuela elections. They did the same thing with Allende in Chile years ago. Just because it's a bad bus driver government in their dark minds gives them the right to overthrow democracy.

Gaetan · 24th January 2019, 09:22 AM

You see what money do. Obama, Trump, Bush and other rich business man criminals from Venezuela ruin this country and now they want to take over from the socialist government to steal the ressources and people over there.

Ron_Tomkins · 24th January 2019, 09:26 AM

So let me get this straight:

This guy announces that he is now the new President of my country.... all of this while Maduro is still President....

And my people actually treat this as if this was somehow official?? People posting on social media celebrating "our new President!! Finally! It's over!!"

It's because of how dumb and delusional people are, that the country is the way it is.
I'm no fan of Maduro at all, but even if Maduro is out, the problems and issues that my Country has go deep deep down. It's not something that is solved by putting another guy on charge.

But regardless, I very much doubt that Maduro is simply gonna get up and say "Oh okay, you claimed this seat? Well.... fair enough, then I suppose you're President now". In fact, he's reacting pretty much the way you'd expect. There's an arrest order against Guaidó that Tarek William Saab put out.

Meanwhile, people actually think that Trump cares about them. That this "allegiance" is not just a political move out of convenience.

My country really is filled with useless morons on both sides of the political spectrum.

applecorped · 24th January 2019, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

So let me get this straight:

This guy announces that he is now the new President of my country.... all of this while Maduro is still President....

And my people actually treat this as if this was somehow official?? People posting on social media celebrating "our new President!! Finally! It's over!!"

It's because of how dumb and delusional people are, that the country is the way it is.
I'm no fan of Maduro at all, but even if Maduro is out, the problems and issues that my Country has go deep deep down. It's not something that is solved by putting another guy on charge.

But regardless, I very much doubt that Maduro is simply gonna get up and say "Oh okay, you claimed this seat? Well.... fair enough, then I suppose you're President now". In fact, he's reacting pretty much the way you'd expect. There's an arrest order against Guaidó that Tarek William Saab put out.

Meanwhile, people actually think that Trump cares about them. That this "allegiance" is not just a political move out of convenience.

My country really is filled with useless morons on both sides of the political spectrum.

Dumb morons?

Why are you blaming the victims?

Belz... · 24th January 2019, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The president of Venezuela has the support of his population. The opponent in Venezuela and US are responsable for the bad economy in this country and for the government Maduro to live the control of the country to the people who ruin the country is not a thing to do.

...what?

Quote:

You see what money do.

See what breathing oxygen does?

Ron_Tomkins · 24th January 2019, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by applecorped

Dumb morons?

Why are you blaming the victims?

You're right. They are victims. Victims of their own ignorance.

Childlike Empress · 24th January 2019, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Meanwhile, people actually think that Trump cares about them. That this "allegiance" is not just a political move out of convenience.

I was serious when I wrote that Trump did it for the LULz - he gives the fanatics he keeps close to him just enough rope to hang themselves. Remember he is destroying the Empire to make USAmerica great again. This move is so dumb after all that from Captain America to non-fanatical Venezuelan exiles nobody here is defending it. It is literally as if Merkel would recognize @AOC as interim president of the USA.

dudalb · 25th January 2019, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Instead, Trump has asked the staff to stay, on the grounds that he does not accept Maduro's authority to send them out.

Well .... at least Trump makes sure we live in interesting times ...

Hans

I am betting SOCOM...the US military command that covers Latin America...has a plan for a opposed evacuation all ready, and a Marine Spec Ops unit is ready to move out on a moment;s notice.

dudalb · 25th January 2019, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

You're right. They are victims. Victims of their own ignorance.

Stupidity has consequences.

theprestige · 25th January 2019, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I am betting SOCOM...the US military command that covers Latin America...has a plan for a opposed evacuation all ready, and a Marine Spec Ops unit is ready to move out on a moment;s notice.

USSOCOM is the Special Operations command. It has global coverage for special operations.

You're thinking of USSOUTHCOM.

ETA: But I'm pretty sure USSOCOM also has an action plan for Venezuela.

Childlike Empress · 26th January 2019, 07:10 AM

Since yesterday the US has a new special envoy for all things Venezuela. You'll never guess who that is ... *drumroll* ...

dann · 26th January 2019, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Did ya all see the Black Mirror episode with Bryce Dallas Howard? Where everyone gets a social rating number and if it drops too low they don't let you in fancier restaurants and people won't date you?

Well China is bulding a "good communist citizen" rating and piloting it for the Venezuelan dictatorship. If your rating drops too low, you can find yourself denied loans and banking and god knows what.

Haven't seen anything this horrid like it since the Nazis did a trial run of blitzkrieg on Guernica.

Yes, the whole world should adopt the just and fair system of capitalism where they don't let you into fancier restaurants because you are poor and unable to pay the bill and you are denied loans for the same reason! Even though the best Black Mirror episodes (Wikipedia) tend to be the ones that don't go very far beyond what is already technologically possible, they won't make one where people are denied access to everything that capitalism has to offer simply because they don't have the money to pay for it.
And it's not because these conditions aren't horrible and offer dramatic conflicts, it's because they are reality and therefore obviously not science fiction.
Dystopias stop being dystopian when they're real: Hunger and poverty in the USA (Wikipedia).
But if somebody with money is denied access to "fancier restaurants", then and only then the time has come to make comparisons with Hitler's "blitzkrieg on Guernica"!!!

Gaetan · 26th January 2019, 08:28 AM

Business men in Venezuela and US ruin the country to get rid of the socialist government who wanted help poor and instruct the people. Then shall we give the govern of the country to the people who ruin the country or keep it. Obama is an hypocrite, he goes in the world giving conference about human right making a lot of money but he participates himself to the ruin of this country.

dann · 26th January 2019, 08:44 AM

This new youtube vide from Vox is very interesting:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Quote:

3:09 →
"See, unlike Maduro Chavez was a charismatic and beloved leader. In the 1990s he burst onto television sets across the country. He blamed government corruption and Venezuela’s elite for the economic inequality. His populist message resonated with the country’s poor, who eventually helped bring him to power. The key moment in his presidency came in 2004 when oil prices surged. Venezuela’s petroleum-dependent economy started booming, and Chavez went on to spend billions from the profits on social-welfare programs for the poor. He subsidized food, improved the educational system, built an enviable health-care system and reduced poverty by more than half. These programs certainly helped the poor, but they served a purpose for Chavez as well. In order to be re-elected, he needed to keep millions of poor Venezuelans happy. So he rigged the economy to do just that.

Picture:
Food subsidies – Improved education – Health care
Venezuela’s poverty rate 2004-2010: 55% → 27%

He didn’t scale back Venezuela’s dependence on oil, and his unrestrained spending led to a growing deficit, which meant that all these programs would be impossible to sustain if oil prices fell.

Picture:
Budget balance (% of GDPP): 200? → 20012 minus 22%

After Chavez’s death, when Maduro took office as his handpicked successor, that’s exactly what happened: Oil prices plummeted in 2014, and Maduro failed to adjust. Hyperinflation has made medicine and food that was once subsidized unaffordable for Venezuela’s poor, who now make up 82% of the population. Like Chavez, Maduro has also rigged the economy to keep himself in power, but this time it’s not benefitting the poor."

I wonder why nobody ever describes the tax cuts in the USA as, "By cutting taxes for the extremely rich, Trump has also rigged the economy to keep himself in power ..."
Why are measures to benefit the poor always the only thing described as dubious and illegitimate?

This video from Democracy now! Is also interesting: How Washington’s Devastating “Economic Blockade” of Venezuela Helped Pave the Way for Coup Attempt. Pay attention to what Steve Ellner, editor of Latin America’s Radical Left (Amazon), says about the current situation:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

fagin · 26th January 2019, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Business men in Venezuela and US ruin the country to get rid of the socialist government who wanted help poor and instruct the people. Then shall we give the govern of the country to the people who ruin the country or keep it. Obama is an hypocrite, he goes in the world giving conference about human right making a lot of money but he participates himself to the ruin of this country.

Obama is still president in Gaetanland?

Gaetan · 26th January 2019, 10:03 AM

The governments who support the auto-proclaimed dictator of Venezuela are all right wings governments at the solde of billionaires who are in a hurry to appropriate the ressources of Venezuela. Mexico is for the government Maduro.

Craig4 · 26th January 2019, 06:53 PM

No one really wants Venezuelan resources right now. Mostly they just have oil and it's not particularly valuable at the moment.

dudalb · 26th January 2019, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

No one really wants Venezuelan resources right now. Mostly they just have oil and it's not particularly valuable at the moment.

And no business wants to invest out of fear whatever they invest is just going to seized by the government. Russia, for all it's posturing, does not have the cash to be a sugar daddy the way the USSR was for fellow Marxist gpvernments, and China does not do subsidies. ( For a Communist Country China is very Captitalistic about things like avoiding bad investments).
In other words, Venenzuela is really screwed.

BobTheCoward · 26th January 2019, 09:30 PM

Ignoring for a second this is a distinction without a difference....

Has the government reported false vote totals for maduro, or are those the correct numbers just affected by all the other behaviour?

Gaetan · 26th January 2019, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And no business wants to invest out of fear whatever they invest is just going to seized by the government. Russia, for all it's posturing, does not have the cash to be a sugar daddy the way the USSR was for fellow Marxist gpvernments, and China does not do subsidies. ( For a Communist Country China is very Captitalistic about things like avoiding bad investments).
In other words, Venenzuela is really screwed.

If there is nothing valuable in Venezuela US shall leave them alone.

8enotto · 26th January 2019, 10:10 PM

The sheer number of people leaving Venezuela and -possibly- joining the migration to the US is a real worry for the orangutan.
You might think that he would be taking small inexpensive steps to help stabilize the Maduro regime.

Instead he taunts and twits uselessly as things get worse.

Mexico is just relieved the mass extraction of the Gulf pozo by Venezuela has slowed so PEMEX has half a chance to place some deep water oil wells before it's all gone.

Also relative stability under a monster is better than civil war. If only by a little.

trustbutverify · 26th January 2019, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

He's a famous journalist, but we need to be told he's famous.

I think she meant "shameless"

Gaetan · 26th January 2019, 11:16 PM

All US wants is to steal the ressources of Venezuela punto.

trustbutverify · 26th January 2019, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The president of Venezuela has the support of his population.

How do you know? Several million of his population seem to support putting as much distance between themselves and Chavismo Jr as they possibly can.

Quote:

The opponent in Venezuela and US are responsable for the bad economy in this country and for the government Maduro to live the control of the country to the people who ruin the country is not a thing to do.

I'm not sure repeating laughable Maduro propaganda in pretend bad English makes it any less ridiculous.

trustbutverify · 26th January 2019, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

All US wants is to steal the ressources of Venezuela punto.

What does Fiat have to do with any of this?

catsmate · 27th January 2019, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by applecorped

Well poverty and death haven't gone over well with them so a change is inevitable

Don't forget rigging elections, harassing opponents of the One True Way and kidnapping/torturing/murdering people.

dudalb · 27th January 2019, 04:32 PM

I guess for some people authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes are fine as long as they are left wing authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes.

8enotto · 27th January 2019, 11:28 PM

If left and right are defined by a USA standard then a larger percentage of governments worldwide are left leaning.
It has been like this a long time.

It's not really all that bad until repression and internal corruption go too far.

Skeptic Ginger · 27th January 2019, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I guess for some people authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes are fine as long as they are left wing authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes.

Easy to blame this on extreme left wing. From where I sit it looks like a completely ignorant government and you shouldn't conflate incompetence with socialism anymore than you should conflate capitalism with Trump.

ponderingturtle · 28th January 2019, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

All US wants is to steal the ressources of Venezuela punto.

Who else is Venezuela going to sell their oil to?

applecorped · 28th January 2019, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Easy to blame this on extreme left wing.

True I agree with your comment 100%

Mycroft · 28th January 2019, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Easy to blame this on extreme left wing. From where I sit it looks like a completely ignorant government and you shouldn't conflate incompetence with socialism anymore than you should conflate capitalism with Trump.

I agree that Venezuela's problems are primarily caused by incompetence, but the people excusing this incompetence and blaming Venezuela's problems on everyone except its government are predominantly left-wingers.

And by left-wingers I mean people far enough to the left as to be socialists.

Gaetan · 28th January 2019, 07:13 PM

Actually there is a complot of the Lima group , some European countries and US to steal the ressources of Venezuela, we'll know the true when all these western dictators will be gone in hell after 50 years as the same of what happened in Chili.

8enotto · 29th January 2019, 10:17 AM

Any country in meltdown politically and economically has few resources most other countries would want.

The US and Venezuela both pull crude from the same pozo under the Gulf of Mexico. They can get your oil without messing with Maduro at all.

What else can be taken?

Right now the biggest export is hungry people. With a much reduced labor force recovery becomes far more difficult. The time to fix it is long past a starting point.

Klimax · 29th January 2019, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Actually there is a complot of the Lima group , some European countries and US to steal the ressources of Venezuela, we'll know the true when all these western dictators will be gone in hell after 50 years as the same of what happened in Chili.

What resources? Crappy crude oil that is very expensive to process to even be usable? There's nothing anybody needs from self-inflicted hell hole called Venezuela that's second Zimbabwe. Had it been in Africa or some other forgotten corner of Earth, nobody would care. (Beyond some token crap)

dudalb · 29th January 2019, 01:10 PM

Maduro is trying to keep his opponent from leaving the country.
Yeah, that is the way a democratic government operates.
I repeat, Maduro is no different then any other Latin America "El Presedente" type dictator except for his left wing mutilated Marxist rhetoric.

theprestige · 29th January 2019, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Maduro is trying to keep his opponent from leaving the country.

Venezuela continues its transition from sovereign state to creepy-ass cult.

Gaetan · 29th January 2019, 03:24 PM

Could you tell to your dictator Trump that the election of a new leader in Venezuela shall not be done when the people are famished by the leaders who want to replace the guy elected but when people have a lot of food.

24th January 2019, 02:35 AM	#401
ohms Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,093	Originally Posted by Belz... Well, that went well. Did he ask the same of Canada? And what about Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Guatemala, Honduras, Panama, Paraguay and Peru?
ohms Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,093	__________________ Long time lurker

24th January 2019, 03:29 AM	#402
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 21,721	Originally Posted by dudalb Dumb,dumb move. Now the US will give the Venezuelan diplomats in the US there walking papers (as much as I hate Trump, I think any US president would react in this way.it's SOP in diplomacy) and the two goverments will communicate by back channels. ... Instead, Trump has asked the staff to stay, on the grounds that he does not accept Maduro's authority to send them out. Well .... at least Trump makes sure we live in interesting times ... Hans
	__________________ Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

24th January 2019, 09:22 AM	#404
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798	You see what money do. Obama, Trump, Bush and other rich business man criminals from Venezuela ruin this country and now they want to take over from the socialist government to steal the ressources and people over there.
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798

24th January 2019, 09:26 AM	#405
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 43,340	So let me get this straight: This guy announces that he is now the new President of my country.... all of this while Maduro is still President.... And my people actually treat this as if this was somehow official?? People posting on social media celebrating "our new President!! Finally! It's over!!" It's because of how dumb and delusional people are, that the country is the way it is. I'm no fan of Maduro at all, but even if Maduro is out, the problems and issues that my Country has go deep deep down. It's not something that is solved by putting another guy on charge. But regardless, I very much doubt that Maduro is simply gonna get up and say "Oh okay, you claimed this seat? Well.... fair enough, then I suppose you're President now". In fact, he's reacting pretty much the way you'd expect. There's an arrest order against Guaidó that Tarek William Saab put out. Meanwhile, people actually think that Trump cares about them. That this "allegiance" is not just a political move out of convenience. My country really is filled with useless morons on both sides of the political spectrum.
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan Last edited by Ron_Tomkins; 24th January 2019 at 09:27 AM.

24th January 2019, 10:14 AM	#406
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 18,914	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins So let me get this straight: This guy announces that he is now the new President of my country.... all of this while Maduro is still President.... And my people actually treat this as if this was somehow official?? People posting on social media celebrating "our new President!! Finally! It's over!!" It's because of how dumb and delusional people are, that the country is the way it is. I'm no fan of Maduro at all, but even if Maduro is out, the problems and issues that my Country has go deep deep down. It's not something that is solved by putting another guy on charge. But regardless, I very much doubt that Maduro is simply gonna get up and say "Oh okay, you claimed this seat? Well.... fair enough, then I suppose you're President now". In fact, he's reacting pretty much the way you'd expect. There's an arrest order against Guaidó that Tarek William Saab put out. Meanwhile, people actually think that Trump cares about them. That this "allegiance" is not just a political move out of convenience. My country really is filled with useless morons on both sides of the political spectrum. Dumb morons? Why are you blaming the victims?
	__________________ All You Need Is Love.

24th January 2019, 04:18 AM	#403
Henri McPhee Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Bristol UK Posts: 3,327	That's America interfering with Venezuela elections. They did the same thing with Allende in Chile years ago. Just because it's a bad bus driver government in their dark minds gives them the right to overthrow democracy.

24th January 2019, 10:24 AM	#407
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 78,650	Originally Posted by Gaetan The president of Venezuela has the support of his population. The opponent in Venezuela and US are responsable for the bad economy in this country and for the government Maduro to live the control of the country to the people who ruin the country is not a thing to do. ...what? Quote: You see what money do. See what breathing oxygen does?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

24th January 2019, 12:04 PM	#408
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 43,340	Originally Posted by applecorped Dumb morons? Why are you blaming the victims? You're right. They are victims. Victims of their own ignorance.
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan Last edited by Ron_Tomkins; 24th January 2019 at 12:05 PM.

24th January 2019, 12:44 PM	#409
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 16,280	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins Meanwhile, people actually think that Trump cares about them. That this "allegiance" is not just a political move out of convenience. I was serious when I wrote that Trump did it for the LULz - he gives the fanatics he keeps close to him just enough rope to hang themselves. Remember he is destroying the Empire to make USAmerica great again. This move is so dumb after all that from Captain America to non-fanatical Venezuelan exiles nobody here is defending it. It is literally as if Merkel would recognize @AOC as interim president of the USA.

25th January 2019, 04:46 PM	#410
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 42,632	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans Instead, Trump has asked the staff to stay, on the grounds that he does not accept Maduro's authority to send them out. Well .... at least Trump makes sure we live in interesting times ... Hans I am betting SOCOM...the US military command that covers Latin America...has a plan for a opposed evacuation all ready, and a Marine Spec Ops unit is ready to move out on a moment;s notice.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

25th January 2019, 04:48 PM	#411
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 42,632	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins You're right. They are victims. Victims of their own ignorance. Stupidity has consequences.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

25th January 2019, 05:47 PM	#412
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 31,739	Originally Posted by dudalb I am betting SOCOM...the US military command that covers Latin America...has a plan for a opposed evacuation all ready, and a Marine Spec Ops unit is ready to move out on a moment;s notice. USSOCOM is the Special Operations command. It has global coverage for special operations. You're thinking of USSOUTHCOM. ETA: But I'm pretty sure USSOCOM also has an action plan for Venezuela.

26th January 2019, 07:10 AM	#413
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 16,280	Since yesterday the US has a new special envoy for all things Venezuela. You'll never guess who that is ... drumroll ... Elliott Abrams

26th January 2019, 08:18 AM	#414
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 6,550	Originally Posted by Beerina Did ya all see the Black Mirror episode with Bryce Dallas Howard? Where everyone gets a social rating number and if it drops too low they don't let you in fancier restaurants and people won't date you? Well China is bulding a "good communist citizen" rating and piloting it for the Venezuelan dictatorship. If your rating drops too low, you can find yourself denied loans and banking and god knows what. Haven't seen anything this horrid like it since the Nazis did a trial run of blitzkrieg on Guernica. Yes, the whole world should adopt the just and fair system of capitalism where they don't let you into fancier restaurants because you are poor and unable to pay the bill and you are denied loans for the same reason! Even though the best Black Mirror episodes (Wikipedia) tend to be the ones that don't go very far beyond what is already technologically possible, they won't make one where people are denied access to everything that capitalism has to offer simply because they don't have the money to pay for it. And it's not because these conditions aren't horrible and offer dramatic conflicts, it's because they are reality and therefore obviously not science fiction. Dystopias stop being dystopian when they're real: Hunger and poverty in the USA (Wikipedia). But if somebody with money is denied access to "fancier restaurants", then and only then the time has come to make comparisons with Hitler's "blitzkrieg on Guernica"!!!
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 6,550	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

26th January 2019, 08:28 AM	#415
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798	Business men in Venezuela and US ruin the country to get rid of the socialist government who wanted help poor and instruct the people. Then shall we give the govern of the country to the people who ruin the country or keep it. Obama is an hypocrite, he goes in the world giving conference about human right making a lot of money but he participates himself to the ruin of this country.
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798

26th January 2019, 09:41 AM	#417
fagin Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: As far away from casebro as possible. Posts: 7,050	Originally Posted by Gaetan Business men in Venezuela and US ruin the country to get rid of the socialist government who wanted help poor and instruct the people. Then shall we give the govern of the country to the people who ruin the country or keep it. Obama is an hypocrite, he goes in the world giving conference about human right making a lot of money but he participates himself to the ruin of this country. Obama is still president in Gaetanland?
	__________________ There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

26th January 2019, 10:03 AM	#418
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798	The governments who support the auto-proclaimed dictator of Venezuela are all right wings governments at the solde of billionaires who are in a hurry to appropriate the ressources of Venezuela. Mexico is for the government Maduro.
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798

26th January 2019, 06:53 PM	#419
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State. Posts: 17,638	No one really wants Venezuelan resources right now. Mostly they just have oil and it's not particularly valuable at the moment.

26th January 2019, 07:55 PM	#420
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 42,632	Originally Posted by Craig4 No one really wants Venezuelan resources right now. Mostly they just have oil and it's not particularly valuable at the moment. And no business wants to invest out of fear whatever they invest is just going to seized by the government. Russia, for all it's posturing, does not have the cash to be a sugar daddy the way the USSR was for fellow Marxist gpvernments, and China does not do subsidies. ( For a Communist Country China is very Captitalistic about things like avoiding bad investments). In other words, Venenzuela is really screwed.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

26th January 2019, 09:30 PM	#421
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,727	Ignoring for a second this is a distinction without a difference.... Has the government reported false vote totals for maduro, or are those the correct numbers just affected by all the other behaviour?

26th January 2019, 09:30 PM	#422
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798	Originally Posted by dudalb And no business wants to invest out of fear whatever they invest is just going to seized by the government. Russia, for all it's posturing, does not have the cash to be a sugar daddy the way the USSR was for fellow Marxist gpvernments, and China does not do subsidies. ( For a Communist Country China is very Captitalistic about things like avoiding bad investments). In other words, Venenzuela is really screwed. If there is nothing valuable in Venezuela US shall leave them alone.
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798

26th January 2019, 10:10 PM	#423
8enotto Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 307	The sheer number of people leaving Venezuela and -possibly- joining the migration to the US is a real worry for the orangutan. You might think that he would be taking small inexpensive steps to help stabilize the Maduro regime. Instead he taunts and twits uselessly as things get worse. Mexico is just relieved the mass extraction of the Gulf pozo by Venezuela has slowed so PEMEX has half a chance to place some deep water oil wells before it's all gone. Also relative stability under a monster is better than civil war. If only by a little.
	Last edited by 8enotto; 26th January 2019 at 10:25 PM.

26th January 2019, 11:09 PM	#424
trustbutverify Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 7,233	Originally Posted by Mycroft He's a famous journalist, but we need to be told he's famous. I think she meant "shameless"
	__________________ "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage

26th January 2019, 11:16 PM	#425
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798	All US wants is to steal the ressources of Venezuela punto.
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798

26th January 2019, 11:21 PM	#426
trustbutverify Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 7,233	Originally Posted by Gaetan The president of Venezuela has the support of his population. How do you know? Several million of his population seem to support putting as much distance between themselves and Chavismo Jr as they possibly can. Quote: The opponent in Venezuela and US are responsable for the bad economy in this country and for the government Maduro to live the control of the country to the people who ruin the country is not a thing to do. I'm not sure repeating laughable Maduro propaganda in pretend bad English makes it any less ridiculous.
	__________________ "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage

26th January 2019, 11:25 PM	#427
trustbutverify Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 7,233	Originally Posted by Gaetan All US wants is to steal the ressources of Venezuela punto. What does Fiat have to do with any of this?
	__________________ "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage

27th January 2019, 03:24 PM	#428
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 19,886	Originally Posted by applecorped Well poverty and death haven't gone over well with them so a change is inevitable Don't forget rigging elections, harassing opponents of the One True Way and kidnapping/torturing/murdering people.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

27th January 2019, 04:32 PM	#429
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 42,632	I guess for some people authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes are fine as long as they are left wing authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

27th January 2019, 11:28 PM	#430
8enotto Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 307	If left and right are defined by a USA standard then a larger percentage of governments worldwide are left leaning. It has been like this a long time. It's not really all that bad until repression and internal corruption go too far.

27th January 2019, 11:50 PM	#431
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 71,597	Originally Posted by dudalb I guess for some people authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes are fine as long as they are left wing authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes. Easy to blame this on extreme left wing. From where I sit it looks like a completely ignorant government and you shouldn't conflate incompetence with socialism anymore than you should conflate capitalism with Trump.
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28th January 2019, 11:20 AM	#432
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 45,170	Originally Posted by Gaetan All US wants is to steal the ressources of Venezuela punto. Who else is Venezuela going to sell their oil to?
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28th January 2019, 12:12 PM	#433
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 18,914	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Easy to blame this on extreme left wing. True I agree with your comment 100%
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28th January 2019, 12:19 PM	#434
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,379	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Easy to blame this on extreme left wing. From where I sit it looks like a completely ignorant government and you shouldn't conflate incompetence with socialism anymore than you should conflate capitalism with Trump. I agree that Venezuela's problems are primarily caused by incompetence, but the people excusing this incompetence and blaming Venezuela's problems on everyone except its government are predominantly left-wingers. And by left-wingers I mean people far enough to the left as to be socialists.
	__________________ Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda

28th January 2019, 07:13 PM	#435
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798	Actually there is a complot of the Lima group , some European countries and US to steal the ressources of Venezuela, we'll know the true when all these western dictators will be gone in hell after 50 years as the same of what happened in Chili.
Gaetan Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,798

29th January 2019, 10:17 AM	#436
8enotto Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 307	Any country in meltdown politically and economically has few resources most other countries would want. The US and Venezuela both pull crude from the same pozo under the Gulf of Mexico. They can get your oil without messing with Maduro at all. What else can be taken? Right now the biggest export is hungry people. With a much reduced labor force recovery becomes far more difficult. The time to fix it is long past a starting point.