Merged: Venezuela on the edge of ending....

[ohms]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Well, that went well. Did he ask the same of Canada?

And what about Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Guatemala, Honduras, Panama, Paraguay and Peru?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Dumb,dumb move.
Now the US will give the Venezuelan diplomats in the US there walking papers (as much as I hate Trump, I think any US president would react in this way.it's SOP in diplomacy) and the two goverments will communicate by back channels.
...

Instead, Trump has asked the staff to stay, on the grounds that he does not accept Maduro's authority to send them out.

Well .... at least Trump makes sure we live in interesting times ...

Hans

[Henri McPhee]

That's America interfering with Venezuela elections. They did the same thing with Allende in Chile years ago. Just because it's a bad bus driver government in their dark minds gives them the right to overthrow democracy.

[Gaetan]

You see what money do. Obama, Trump, Bush and other rich business man criminals from Venezuela ruin this country and now they want to take over from the socialist government to steal the ressources and people over there.

[Ron_Tomkins]

So let me get this straight:

This guy announces that he is now the new President of my country.... all of this while Maduro is still President....

And my people actually treat this as if this was somehow official?? People posting on social media celebrating "our new President!! Finally! It's over!!"


It's because of how dumb and delusional people are, that the country is the way it is.
I'm no fan of Maduro at all, but even if Maduro is out, the problems and issues that my Country has go deep deep down. It's not something that is solved by putting another guy on charge.

But regardless, I very much doubt that Maduro is simply gonna get up and say "Oh okay, you claimed this seat? Well.... fair enough, then I suppose you're President now". In fact, he's reacting pretty much the way you'd expect. There's an arrest order against Guaidó that Tarek William Saab put out.

Meanwhile, people actually think that Trump cares about them. That this "allegiance" is not just a political move out of convenience.

My country really is filled with useless morons on both sides of the political spectrum.

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

So let me get this straight:

This guy announces that he is now the new President of my country.... all of this while Maduro is still President....

And my people actually treat this as if this was somehow official?? People posting on social media celebrating "our new President!! Finally! It's over!!"


It's because of how dumb and delusional people are, that the country is the way it is.
I'm no fan of Maduro at all, but even if Maduro is out, the problems and issues that my Country has go deep deep down. It's not something that is solved by putting another guy on charge.

But regardless, I very much doubt that Maduro is simply gonna get up and say "Oh okay, you claimed this seat? Well.... fair enough, then I suppose you're President now". In fact, he's reacting pretty much the way you'd expect. There's an arrest order against Guaidó that Tarek William Saab put out.

Meanwhile, people actually think that Trump cares about them. That this "allegiance" is not just a political move out of convenience.

My country really is filled with useless morons on both sides of the political spectrum.

Dumb morons?

Why are you blaming the victims?

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The president of Venezuela has the support of his population. The opponent in Venezuela and US are responsable for the bad economy in this country and for the government Maduro to live the control of the country to the people who ruin the country is not a thing to do.

...what?

Quote:

You see what money do.

See what breathing oxygen does?

[Ron_Tomkins]

Originally Posted by applecorped

Dumb morons?

Why are you blaming the victims?

You're right. They are victims. Victims of their own ignorance.

[Childlike Empress]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Meanwhile, people actually think that Trump cares about them. That this "allegiance" is not just a political move out of convenience.

I was serious when I wrote that Trump did it for the LULz - he gives the fanatics he keeps close to him just enough rope to hang themselves. Remember he is destroying the Empire to make USAmerica great again. This move is so dumb after all that from Captain America to non-fanatical Venezuelan exiles nobody here is defending it. It is literally as if Merkel would recognize @AOC as interim president of the USA.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Instead, Trump has asked the staff to stay, on the grounds that he does not accept Maduro's authority to send them out.

Well .... at least Trump makes sure we live in interesting times ...

Hans

I am betting SOCOM...the US military command that covers Latin America...has a plan for a opposed evacuation all ready, and a Marine Spec Ops unit is ready to move out on a moment;s notice.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

You're right. They are victims. Victims of their own ignorance.

Stupidity has consequences.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I am betting SOCOM...the US military command that covers Latin America...has a plan for a opposed evacuation all ready, and a Marine Spec Ops unit is ready to move out on a moment;s notice.

USSOCOM is the Special Operations command. It has global coverage for special operations.

You're thinking of USSOUTHCOM.

ETA: But I'm pretty sure USSOCOM also has an action plan for Venezuela.

[Childlike Empress]

Since yesterday the US has a new special envoy for all things Venezuela. You'll never guess who that is ... *drumroll* ...

Elliott Abrams

[dann]

Originally Posted by Beerina

Did ya all see the Black Mirror episode with Bryce Dallas Howard? Where everyone gets a social rating number and if it drops too low they don't let you in fancier restaurants and people won't date you?

Well China is bulding a "good communist citizen" rating and piloting it for the Venezuelan dictatorship. If your rating drops too low, you can find yourself denied loans and banking and god knows what.

Haven't seen anything this horrid like it since the Nazis did a trial run of blitzkrieg on Guernica.

Yes, the whole world should adopt the just and fair system of capitalism where they don't let you into fancier restaurants because you are poor and unable to pay the bill and you are denied loans for the same reason! Even though the best Black Mirror episodes (Wikipedia) tend to be the ones that don't go very far beyond what is already technologically possible, they won't make one where people are denied access to everything that capitalism has to offer simply because they don't have the money to pay for it.
And it's not because these conditions aren't horrible and offer dramatic conflicts, it's because they are reality and therefore obviously not science fiction.
Dystopias stop being dystopian when they're real: Hunger and poverty in the USA (Wikipedia).
But if somebody with money is denied access to "fancier restaurants", then and only then the time has come to make comparisons with Hitler's "blitzkrieg on Guernica"!!!

[Gaetan]

Business men in Venezuela and US ruin the country to get rid of the socialist government who wanted help poor and instruct the people. Then shall we give the govern of the country to the people who ruin the country or keep it. Obama is an hypocrite, he goes in the world giving conference about human right making a lot of money but he participates himself to the ruin of this country.

[dann]

This new youtube vide from Vox is very interesting:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Quote:

3:09 →
"See, unlike Maduro Chavez was a charismatic and beloved leader. In the 1990s he burst onto television sets across the country. He blamed government corruption and Venezuela’s elite for the economic inequality. His populist message resonated with the country’s poor, who eventually helped bring him to power. The key moment in his presidency came in 2004 when oil prices surged. Venezuela’s petroleum-dependent economy started booming, and Chavez went on to spend billions from the profits on social-welfare programs for the poor. He subsidized food, improved the educational system, built an enviable health-care system and reduced poverty by more than half. These programs certainly helped the poor, but they served a purpose for Chavez as well. In order to be re-elected, he needed to keep millions of poor Venezuelans happy. So he rigged the economy to do just that.

Picture:
Food subsidies – Improved education – Health care
Venezuela’s poverty rate 2004-2010: 55% → 27%

He didn’t scale back Venezuela’s dependence on oil, and his unrestrained spending led to a growing deficit, which meant that all these programs would be impossible to sustain if oil prices fell.

Picture:
Budget balance (% of GDPP): 200? → 20012 minus 22%

After Chavez’s death, when Maduro took office as his handpicked successor, that’s exactly what happened: Oil prices plummeted in 2014, and Maduro failed to adjust. Hyperinflation has made medicine and food that was once subsidized unaffordable for Venezuela’s poor, who now make up 82% of the population. Like Chavez, Maduro has also rigged the economy to keep himself in power, but this time it’s not benefitting the poor."

I wonder why nobody ever describes the tax cuts in the USA as, "By cutting taxes for the extremely rich, Trump has also rigged the economy to keep himself in power ..."
Why are measures to benefit the poor always the only thing described as dubious and illegitimate?

This video from Democracy now! Is also interesting: How Washington’s Devastating “Economic Blockade” of Venezuela Helped Pave the Way for Coup Attempt. Pay attention to what Steve Ellner, editor of Latin America’s Radical Left (Amazon), says about the current situation:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[fagin]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Business men in Venezuela and US ruin the country to get rid of the socialist government who wanted help poor and instruct the people. Then shall we give the govern of the country to the people who ruin the country or keep it. Obama is an hypocrite, he goes in the world giving conference about human right making a lot of money but he participates himself to the ruin of this country.

Obama is still president in Gaetanland?

[Gaetan]

The governments who support the auto-proclaimed dictator of Venezuela are all right wings governments at the solde of billionaires who are in a hurry to appropriate the ressources of Venezuela. Mexico is for the government Maduro.

[Craig4]

No one really wants Venezuelan resources right now. Mostly they just have oil and it's not particularly valuable at the moment.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Craig4

No one really wants Venezuelan resources right now. Mostly they just have oil and it's not particularly valuable at the moment.

And no business wants to invest out of fear whatever they invest is just going to seized by the government. Russia, for all it's posturing, does not have the cash to be a sugar daddy the way the USSR was for fellow Marxist gpvernments, and China does not do subsidies. ( For a Communist Country China is very Captitalistic about things like avoiding bad investments).
In other words, Venenzuela is really screwed.

[BobTheCoward]

Ignoring for a second this is a distinction without a difference....


Has the government reported false vote totals for maduro, or are those the correct numbers just affected by all the other behaviour?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by dudalb

And no business wants to invest out of fear whatever they invest is just going to seized by the government. Russia, for all it's posturing, does not have the cash to be a sugar daddy the way the USSR was for fellow Marxist gpvernments, and China does not do subsidies. ( For a Communist Country China is very Captitalistic about things like avoiding bad investments).
In other words, Venenzuela is really screwed.

If there is nothing valuable in Venezuela US shall leave them alone.

[8enotto]

The sheer number of people leaving Venezuela and -possibly- joining the migration to the US is a real worry for the orangutan.
You might think that he would be taking small inexpensive steps to help stabilize the Maduro regime.

Instead he taunts and twits uselessly as things get worse.

Mexico is just relieved the mass extraction of the Gulf pozo by Venezuela has slowed so PEMEX has half a chance to place some deep water oil wells before it's all gone.

Also relative stability under a monster is better than civil war. If only by a little.

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

He's a famous journalist, but we need to be told he's famous.

I think she meant "shameless"

[Gaetan]

All US wants is to steal the ressources of Venezuela punto.

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The president of Venezuela has the support of his population.

How do you know? Several million of his population seem to support putting as much distance between themselves and Chavismo Jr as they possibly can.

Quote:

The opponent in Venezuela and US are responsable for the bad economy in this country and for the government Maduro to live the control of the country to the people who ruin the country is not a thing to do.

I'm not sure repeating laughable Maduro propaganda in pretend bad English makes it any less ridiculous.

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

All US wants is to steal the ressources of Venezuela punto.

What does Fiat have to do with any of this?

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by applecorped

Well poverty and death haven't gone over well with them so a change is inevitable

Don't forget rigging elections, harassing opponents of the One True Way and kidnapping/torturing/murdering people.

[dudalb]

I guess for some people authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes are fine as long as they are left wing authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes.

[8enotto]

If left and right are defined by a USA standard then a larger percentage of governments worldwide are left leaning.
It has been like this a long time.

It's not really all that bad until repression and internal corruption go too far.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I guess for some people authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes are fine as long as they are left wing authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes.

Easy to blame this on extreme left wing. From where I sit it looks like a completely ignorant government and you shouldn't conflate incompetence with socialism anymore than you should conflate capitalism with Trump.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

All US wants is to steal the ressources of Venezuela punto.

Who else is Venezuela going to sell their oil to?

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Easy to blame this on extreme left wing.

True I agree with your comment 100%

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Easy to blame this on extreme left wing. From where I sit it looks like a completely ignorant government and you shouldn't conflate incompetence with socialism anymore than you should conflate capitalism with Trump.

I agree that Venezuela's problems are primarily caused by incompetence, but the people excusing this incompetence and blaming Venezuela's problems on everyone except its government are predominantly left-wingers.

And by left-wingers I mean people far enough to the left as to be socialists.

[Gaetan]

Actually there is a complot of the Lima group , some European countries and US to steal the ressources of Venezuela, we'll know the true when all these western dictators will be gone in hell after 50 years as the same of what happened in Chili.

[8enotto]

Any country in meltdown politically and economically has few resources most other countries would want.

The US and Venezuela both pull crude from the same pozo under the Gulf of Mexico. They can get your oil without messing with Maduro at all.

What else can be taken?

Right now the biggest export is hungry people. With a much reduced labor force recovery becomes far more difficult. The time to fix it is long past a starting point.

[Klimax]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Actually there is a complot of the Lima group , some European countries and US to steal the ressources of Venezuela, we'll know the true when all these western dictators will be gone in hell after 50 years as the same of what happened in Chili.

What resources? Crappy crude oil that is very expensive to process to even be usable? There's nothing anybody needs from self-inflicted hell hole called Venezuela that's second Zimbabwe. Had it been in Africa or some other forgotten corner of Earth, nobody would care. (Beyond some token crap)

[dudalb]

Maduro is trying to keep his opponent from leaving the country.
Yeah, that is the way a democratic government operates.
I repeat, Maduro is no different then any other Latin America "El Presedente" type dictator except for his left wing mutilated Marxist rhetoric.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Maduro is trying to keep his opponent from leaving the country.

Venezuela continues its transition from sovereign state to creepy-ass cult.

[Gaetan]

Could you tell to your dictator Trump that the election of a new leader in Venezuela shall not be done when the people are famished by the leaders who want to replace the guy elected but when people have a lot of food.