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Old 7th December 2018, 01:50 PM   #1
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US Government never lies to start a war

Incubator for babies
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:52 PM   #2
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Since Iraq invaded Kuwait before "the lie," what's your point?
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:54 PM   #3
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Perhaps some words might help to make an argument.

Instead of a random link....
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:19 PM   #4
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This is such old news. As the link indicates the fact it was a lie and that Nayirah was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the USA was widely publicized in 1992 (26 years ago).

Slow day Geggy? Are we supposed to be surprised or have our world view shaken? Did you think that we were unaware of the bad things that happened under Bush 41?

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Old 7th December 2018, 02:31 PM   #5
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This is the 9/11 conspiracy theory forum. If you have a 9/11 related conspiracy theory you would like to share please do so.
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Old 7th December 2018, 05:53 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
This is the 9/11 conspiracy theory forum. If you have a 9/11 related conspiracy theory you would like to share please do so.
It's an old Truther tactic. "The US Government lied about X, therefore they lied about 9/11".
It has been over 17 years, and the Truthers use the same tired, stupid, arguments and tactics.
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Old 8th December 2018, 02:28 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's an old Truther tactic. "The US Government lied about X, therefore they lied about 9/11".
It has been over 17 years, and the Truthers use the same tired, stupid, arguments and tactics.
Plus "you believe everything the government tells you, sheeple!"
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Old 8th December 2018, 02:27 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Plus "you believe everything the government tells you, sheeple!"
Right, there are only two possibilities in Trutherland:
  • You believe everything an organization says
  • You believe nothing an organization says

There is no other option in Trutherland, such as "Some is correct, and some is in error, and some is lies".

Trutherland is a dystopian nightmare, because in the end you will find that there is no individual and no group that neve tells a lie, so the Trutherlander is reduced to believing that EVERYTHING anyone ever utters is a lie.
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Old 8th December 2018, 02:49 PM   #9
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The government is made up of people! The government is people!
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Old 8th December 2018, 03:08 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
The government is made up of people! The government is people!


Soylent State?
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Old 9th December 2018, 01:29 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Trutherland is a dystopian nightmare, because in the end you will find that there is no individual and no group that neve tells a lie, so the Trutherlander is reduced to believing that EVERYTHING anyone ever utters is a lie.
I guess that's how the Inflationary Limit of Conspiracy Theories is reached (AE911T was among the ones that reached it not too long ago, by the way).
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Old 9th December 2018, 02:28 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I guess that's how the Inflationary Limit of Conspiracy Theories is reached (AE911T was among the ones that reached it not too long ago, by the way).
Yours truly was the one who found and posted it here: That AE911T identifies "The General Public" as guilty of 9/11. The entire population of (at least) the USA.
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Old 9th December 2018, 02:42 PM   #13
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Are we seriously debating whether Iraq actually invaded Kuwait?

I remember the testimony of the girl and that it was later discredited. But I don't remember it being much of the reason for the Gulf War. Iraq had actually invaded Kuwait.
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Old 9th December 2018, 02:55 PM   #14
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Surely the 'incubator' story was well after the invasion and not promulgated by the USA as an excuse for a war.

What is the point you are trying to make?
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Old 9th December 2018, 10:14 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Surely the 'incubator' story was well after the invasion and not promulgated by the USA as an excuse for a war.

It was well after the invasion, but just before our military began its attack. Nayirah testified on October 10, 1990. By that time, the UN had passed multiple resolutions, Bush had built a military coalition, and warships were moved into the area. The actual war started on January 16, 1991.

So, technically, her testimony formed part of the case to justify military intervention to the American people. But it was hardly the sole justification or even a particularly important one. Our war plans were already well in motion and popular support for military action was already high.
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Old 10th December 2018, 01:56 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post

What is the point you are trying to make?
He isn't.
Seagull post, yet again.
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Old 10th December 2018, 01:02 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It was well after the invasion, but just before our military began its attack. Nayirah testified on October 10, 1990. By that time, the UN had passed multiple resolutions, Bush had built a military coalition, and warships were moved into the area. The actual war started on January 16, 1991.

So, technically, her testimony formed part of the case to justify military intervention to the American people. But it was hardly the sole justification or even a particularly important one. Our war plans were already well in motion and popular support for military action was already high.
This.
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Old 10th December 2018, 01:05 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It was well after the invasion, but just before our military began its attack. Nayirah testified on October 10, 1990. By that time, the UN had passed multiple resolutions, Bush had built a military coalition, and warships were moved into the area. The actual war started on January 16, 1991.

So, technically, her testimony formed part of the case to justify military intervention to the American people. But it was hardly the sole justification or even a particularly important one. Our war plans were already well in motion and popular support for military action was already high.
Bingo!

Once Iraq invaded Kuwait they were going to be hit with The Big Stick and incubators had nothing to do with it.
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Old 10th December 2018, 01:16 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by geggy View Post
People lie?
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Old 10th December 2018, 05:03 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Once Iraq invaded Kuwait they were going to be hit with The Big Stick and incubators had nothing to do with it.

I think (solely in my opinion) that Hussain could have negotiated a withdrawal from Kuwait and avoided a war if he'd had the diplomatic skills or desire.

Iraq's main complaint about Kuwait was that they were slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields. The ironic thing about the whole war was that Hussain was right. They found documents in the Kuwaiti oil ministry and/or other offices that proved it.

Hussain could have invaded those offices, seized the documentary proof and the gold and retreated back out. Then he should have turned the gold over to the international courts for some sort of determination of how much Kuwait owed to Iraq for stealing its oil.

But, of course, he had to be a raving lunatic about it and refuse to leave. At that point, war was inevitable.
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Old 10th December 2018, 06:02 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I think (solely in my opinion) that Hussain could have negotiated a withdrawal from Kuwait and avoided a war if he'd had the diplomatic skills or desire.

Iraq's main complaint about Kuwait was that they were slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields. The ironic thing about the whole war was that Hussain was right. They found documents in the Kuwaiti oil ministry and/or other offices that proved it.

Hussain could have invaded those offices, seized the documentary proof and the gold and retreated back out. Then he should have turned the gold over to the international courts for some sort of determination of how much Kuwait owed to Iraq for stealing its oil.

But, of course, he had to be a raving lunatic about it and refuse to leave. At that point, war was inevitable.
IMHO Hussein always wanted to annex Kuwait, and uset the slant drilling charge as a excuse. He though the world would accept it without anything stronger then a verbal rebuke and some finger wagering.
That Kuwait might have been drinking Iraq's milkshake was minor point....
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Old 10th December 2018, 06:42 PM   #22
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Thinking historically, Kuwait used to be part of Iraq anyway. Some Iraqis considered Kuwait just a "rogue province", not a separate country. So one of the Iraqi justifications was "reunification".
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Old 10th December 2018, 09:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
IMHO Hussein always wanted to annex Kuwait, and uset the slant drilling charge as a excuse. He though the world would accept it without anything stronger then a verbal rebuke and some finger wagering.
That Kuwait might have been drinking Iraq's milkshake was minor point....
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Thinking historically, Kuwait used to be part of Iraq anyway. Some Iraqis considered Kuwait just a "rogue province", not a separate country. So one of the Iraqi justifications was "reunification".

I'm not sure that the "rogue province" thing was important to the Iraqi people. I mean, since the fall of Hussain and the de facto splintering of Iraq into at least three separate nations, neither the Sunnis nor the Shia in southern Iraq have been at all interested in reunifying with Kuwait (by force or otherwise). I'm sure it was important to Hussain because he was certifiably crazy.

However, the US had not been involved in a major conflict since Viet Nam. So, Hussain may have had some calculated hope that Americans wouldn't allow their government to get embroiled in a foreign war. What he could not have known was that OBL was about to turn the page on that pretty damn hard.
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Old 11th December 2018, 05:36 AM   #24
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This is the kind of guff you get from people who weren't alive at the time.
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Old 11th December 2018, 07:26 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post

Iraq's main complaint about Kuwait was that they were slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields. The ironic thing about the whole war was that Hussain was right. They found documents in the Kuwaiti oil ministry and/or other offices that proved it.
Are you sure? I wasn't aware that had ever been proven.
Do you have a source for that?
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Old 11th December 2018, 07:28 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Thinking historically, Kuwait used to be part of Iraq anyway. Some Iraqis considered Kuwait just a "rogue province", not a separate country. So one of the Iraqi justifications was "reunification".
Kuwait, as far as I am aware, was never part of Iraq. Iraq was carved out of the defunct Ottoman Empire, whereas Kuwait was always independent, or at least a British protectorate (to keep the Ottomans out).
As always, quite prepared to be wrong about this, given evidence.
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Old 11th December 2018, 08:21 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Kuwait, as far as I am aware, was never part of Iraq.
you just Kuwait and see......you'll be proven wrong.
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Old 11th December 2018, 03:49 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Are you sure? I wasn't aware that had ever been proven.
Do you have a source for that?

Okay, this archived article from The New York Times says we're both kind of correct.

While it says that there was no evidence of Kuwait slant drilling, it does say that Kuwait was pumping at least twice as much oil from the shared Rumaila oil field than they were allowed to by OPEC. And it says that Kuwait was doing it on purpose in order to try to force Iraq to the bargaining table to work out a shared-profit deal. By overproducing, Kuwait could undercut Iraqi oil prices and muscle Iraq out of the US market. Hussain viewed this as reneging on an implicit deal between the US and Kuwait to help fund its war against Iran.

So, to sum up, you are right that there was no evidence of slant-drilling. There was, however, plenty of evidence that Kuwait was draining the shared Rumaila oil field in contravention of OPEC treaty in a manner that could be considered "economic warfare."

None of this excuses the invasion, let alone the refusal to withdraw. None of it shows the US was wrong to use military force to liberate Kuwait. And all of it shows that the situation was far, far more complicated than the OP's vague statement that a false report of child abuse was the US's main justification for the invasion.
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Old 11th December 2018, 04:47 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I think (solely in my opinion) that Hussain could have negotiated a withdrawal from Kuwait and avoided a war if he'd had the diplomatic skills or desire.

Iraq's main complaint about Kuwait was that they were slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields. The ironic thing about the whole war was that Hussain was right. They found documents in the Kuwaiti oil ministry and/or other offices that proved it.

Hussain could have invaded those offices, seized the documentary proof and the gold and retreated back out. Then he should have turned the gold over to the international courts for some sort of determination of how much Kuwait owed to Iraq for stealing its oil.

But, of course, he had to be a raving lunatic about it and refuse to leave. At that point, war was inevitable.
Please justify the bolded text. As a Petroleum Engineer I can tell you that Kuwait would not have to directionally drill into the same reservoir that exists on both sides of the border. All they have to do is produce more than Iraq was allowed to produce, thus "stealing" a bigger share of the reserves. This is exactly what was happening.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...fQ2Yol8cFgYNfW
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Old 11th December 2018, 10:01 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Please justify the bolded text.

I think that in my post immediately preceding yours, I withdrew that claim.
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Old 11th December 2018, 11:41 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Kuwait, as far as I am aware, was never part of Iraq. Iraq was carved out of the defunct Ottoman Empire, whereas Kuwait was always independent, or at least a British protectorate (to keep the Ottomans out).
As always, quite prepared to be wrong about this, given evidence.
Yeah, depends on how far you go back, and what you define as "independent". It's...complicated.

http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/iraqkuwait.html
Quote:
[1920] King Faisal I of the new Iraqi state ruled under British military oversight, but his administration never accepted the amputation of the Kuwait district and the denial of Iraqi access to the Persian Gulf.

...

[1930's] A mass movement of Kuwaiti youth called the "Free Kuwaiti Movement" defied British rule and submitted a petition requesting the Iraqi government to reunify Kuwait and Iraq.
And so on.
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Old 17th December 2018, 11:29 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I think (solely in my opinion) that Hussain could have negotiated a withdrawal from Kuwait and avoided a war if he'd had the diplomatic skills or desire.

Iraq's main complaint about Kuwait was that they were slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields. The ironic thing about the whole war was that Hussain was right. They found documents in the Kuwaiti oil ministry and/or other offices that proved it.

Hussain could have invaded those offices, seized the documentary proof and the gold and retreated back out. Then he should have turned the gold over to the international courts for some sort of determination of how much Kuwait owed to Iraq for stealing its oil.

But, of course, he had to be a raving lunatic about it and refuse to leave. At that point, war was inevitable.
IIRC (I don't remember a lot of details) there was some American diplomat who basically told Saddam Hussein (or a diplmat working for his regime) that the US wouldn't interfere in border disputes between Iraq and Kuwait. Unfortunately, it seems that Hussein interpreted that as carte blanche to conquer and annex Kuwait, and thus we ended up with the first Gulf War.
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Old 17th December 2018, 11:43 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Surely the 'incubator' story was well after the invasion and not promulgated by the USA as an excuse for a war.

What is the point you are trying to make?
Hell, if one is looking to make the point that the US government has lied to start a war, the Gulf of Tonkin "incident" is a much more clear cut example, in that the lie in this case was pretty key in justifying the escalation of the Vietnam War.

Of course, the notion that it in any way supports the premise that 9/11 was an inside job is every bit as silly for that as for the incubator story.
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Old 17th December 2018, 07:44 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
IIRC (I don't remember a lot of details) there was some American diplomat who basically told Saddam Hussein (or a diplmat working for his regime) that the US wouldn't interfere in border disputes between Iraq and Kuwait. Unfortunately, it seems that Hussein interpreted that as carte blanche to conquer and annex Kuwait, and thus we ended up with the first Gulf War.

It's strange, if true, because the same thing happened in WWII. The Germans got the impression from Joseph Kennedy that America hated Jews. They implemented the Holocaust in the belief that other western nations wouldn't get upset about it.
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Old 17th December 2018, 08:02 PM   #35
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Nayirah was originally booked for the incubator bit many weeks earlier in the action build up scenes, but her agent convinced her to accept another gig and re-schedule, (more money, better career choice). Hence her appearance in the production came later than planned.

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Old 17th December 2018, 09:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
IIRC (I don't remember a lot of details) there was some American diplomat who basically told Saddam Hussein (or a diplmat working for his regime) that the US wouldn't interfere in border disputes between Iraq and Kuwait. Unfortunately, it seems that Hussein interpreted that as carte blanche to conquer and annex Kuwait, and thus we ended up with the first Gulf War.
Her name was April Glaspie, and she was simply repeating the State Department line:

https://adst.org/2016/02/a-bum-rap-f...-the-iraq-war/
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Old 17th December 2018, 09:59 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Her name was April Glaspie, and she was simply repeating the State Department line:

https://adst.org/2016/02/a-bum-rap-f...-the-iraq-war/


So what is the real true story regarding FBI agent John Oneil tracking Osama Bin Laden and April Glaspie (as the claim went) either denying Oneil, entry or booting him from Iraq ?

IIRC it was claimed Osama was "Tim Ossman" (get it, 'OSS' man) working for cia in afghanistan.

Last edited by Bubba; 17th December 2018 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 18th December 2018, 01:09 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
So what is the real true story regarding FBI agent John Oneil tracking Osama Bin Laden and April Glaspie (as the claim went) either denying Oneil, entry or booting him from Iraq ?

IIRC it was claimed Osama was "Tim Ossman" (get it, 'OSS' man) working for cia in afghanistan.
Do you not read any news papers, magazines, watch the news, or read history books written by mentally sound people?

John O'Neil went to YEMEN, not Iraq, and more or less got himself kicked out by US Ambassador to Yemen, Barbara Bodine, not April Glaspie, due to his lack of people skills. He wasn't tracking bin Laden, he was there to investigate the USS Cole bombing.

And no, bin Laden never worked for the CIA. Like you, he felt it was a Zionist controlled cabal.
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Old 18th December 2018, 04:25 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by geggy View Post
US Government never lies to start a war
Incubator for babies

It's pretty easy to find much better examples than that:

When presidents lie to make a war (The Guardian, Aug. 2, 2014)
America's unlearned lesson: the forgotten truth about why we invaded Iraq (Vox, Feb. 16, 2016)
U.S. Military Wanted to Provoke War with Cuba (ABC News, May 1, 2001)
How to Start a War: The American Use of War Pretext (Global Research, Aug. 19, 2014)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th December 2018, 02:03 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
This is the 9/11 conspiracy theory forum. If you have a 9/11 related conspiracy theory you would like to share please do so.
? As far as I can see the section is called "Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories" and isn't limited to those related to 9/11.
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