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Old 29th January 2019, 02:20 PM   #41
carlitos
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
The workers (not shareholders) of that entity would receive a share of the profit, the amount or percentage of which would be determined by considerations of distributive justice and social utility. Many people enjoy fruitful and creative work, knowing that they are working for the common good makes them happier than being extremely rich. Anyway, nobody would be extremely rich in a society of distributive justice...
This has been tried and it failed. I don't suppose that you drive a Lada or a Trabant?
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:45 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
The workers (not shareholders) of that entity would receive a share of the profit, the amount or percentage of which would be determined by considerations of distributive justice and social utility. Many people enjoy fruitful and creative work, knowing that they are working for the common good makes them happier than being extremely rich. Anyway, nobody would be extremely rich in a society of distributive justice...
The flaw with this thinking is that not all businesses operate at a vast profit margin. Workers in agriculture would make less than workers at textile plants, and those workers would make less than those who do construction.

The model does not take the real world into account in any way. Under the model as you describe so workers would be less equal than others.

This was the problem in the Soviet Union, and it is the problem today in China, where travel is restricted within the country to keep people working on farms from abandoning their jobs to seek better paying work in the big industrial cities. The Soviets had to build a wall and plant landmines to prevent citizens from fleeing the system you're advocating.
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:49 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
This has been tried and it failed. I don't suppose that you drive a Lada or a Trabant?
'From Each According To His Abilities, To Each According To His Needs" is one of those things that sound great on paper, but fail miserably when put into practice.
As someone once said, problem with pure socialism is that is just does not work with Human Beings.
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Old 29th January 2019, 03:02 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
'From Each According To His Abilities, To Each According To His Needs" is one of those things that sound great on paper, but fail miserably when put into practice.

As someone once said, problem with pure socialism is that is just does not work with Human Beings.
Wilson said it properly: Wonderful theory, wrong species
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Old 29th January 2019, 03:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Yeah sure, Europe is still 'the free world' in a sense. Probably it would be worse in a lot of ways, living under a 'real' dictatorship. That doesn't mean it has arrived at "authentic and legitimate democracy"
Europe is enjoying a long stretch of peace. It has been a long time since there has been a shooting war on the continent, and that is unique in European history. And European history is very long, and every political idea was invented, and invested in at some point by one or more European country.

If you don't see the current European model as a success you're just another fascist.


Quote:
Still the cruelty being inflicted on the countries which are producing all our nice pretty things is extreme. Actually I suppose it would be useless for the UK to become self-sufficient, seeing as it's Babylon and Babylon is going to fall...
The British will sort it out. Brexit isn't even the dumbest thing they've ever tried.

Quote:
But for the South American countries it is necessary to get out from under the boot-heal of the US Imperium.
Sorry, Central and South America have been devoid of serious US activities since the fall of 2001. Hugo Chavez and Daniel Ortega are proof of our absence, and represent the true face of socialism. The only crime the US is guilty of these days is our out-of-control drug use, which finances pure evil in places like Mexico, Colombia, and Peru. But drugs are a social issue, not government sanctioned.

Quote:
It's true, I'm not an expert on economics. Still I know that Corporations are robbing the mass of humanity, acting purely to enrich shareholders.
Cool, here's your first economic lesson:

Shareholders are regular people. Shareholders are unions who invest in stocks to ensure that pensions can be paid. Shareholders are workers with IRA's saving for their own retirements. Shareholders are non-profits who use their dividends to fund their charitable works.

Can a person get rich from the stock market? Sure.

But most shareholders are hard working people.


Quote:
The world would be a better place without the corporations.
Then we're left with large privately owned companies who answer to no one. Good thinking.

Quote:
They do not need to exist. They are parasites, vampiric entities sucking the life out of humanity. They require some countries to be poor, in order to produce at low prices the crap they sell...
Wow, you weren't joking about not knowing anything about economics.

The more money people make the more money they have to spend. A business's job is to make money by selling a product or products. The more people that can buy their product the more money they can make, so the idea that business requires some countries to be poor is a bad business model.


Quote:
It may be that the oppressed countries have internal forms of oppression as well. That doesn't mean that we aren't oppressing them, and often collaborating with those internal oppressors (the image that springs to mind is the Chicago School economists drawing up Pinochet's economic plans as his tanks roll through the streets to seize power).
Pinochet hasn't been in power since 1990. That's 29 years. Show us how the US is oppressing Argentina today.

Quote:
Also the Yankees use their leverage to economically or otherwise attack any country that tries a different system, like Venezuala... I mean, c'mon, that whole thing is blatantly engineered...
Hold on, Commrad, Venezuala's "different system" has generated 4 million refugees in neighboring Colombia who are fleeing a nightmare state. Hugo Chavez took a malfunction democracy and turned it into the very thing you claim you hate. He put his moronic, sadistic cronies in charge of the economy, and the result is the turmoil, and state sponsored murder they have now.

https://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela#

The truth is that the United States stepped away from Central and South America and Putin stepped in, and the people you claim to care about have suffered.
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Old 29th January 2019, 03:56 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I mentioned Japan. The firebombing of Tokyo was unnecessary. It's said that before Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Japanese had offered to surrender if they could keep their emperor, that the Americans dropped the bombs then accepted the same terms. Maybe this is speculation, but given the USA's record, forgive my skepticism...
The Japanese proposed surrender with the Russians first.

Roosevelt laid out the objective in his speech after Pearl Harbor (you know, that thing where Japan attacked a neutral country) was the complete surrender of Japan on our terms.

We firebombed a lot of Japanese cites, Tokyo was just next on the list. What you ignore is the war itself. The bombing of Japan didn't happen in a vacuum, we were fighting a brutal war in the islands of the Pacific. To end the war with Japan it boiled down to the numbers. Look at the last two campaigns before we dropped the two A-bombs:

Iwo Jima - US had, 6,821 killed, 26,000 wounded. Japan had around 18,000 killed.

Okinawa - 12,520 killed, 49,000 wounded. Japan had 11,000 soldiers killed, and another 40,000 to 150,000 civilians killed (the Japanese had no problem putting citizens in the line of fire, BTW).

The planning to invade Japan project 400,000 to 800,000 US casualties, and up to 5 million Japanese dead. US military planners actually hand 500,000 Purple Heart medals minted in anticipation of the US invasion of Japan (*fun fact, we've been handing those medals out ever since. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan WIA all got medals minted in 1945).

So yes, we dropped two well earned atomic bombs on Japan, and actually saved lives on both sides in the process.

If you believe in the philosophy you're trying to advance then you need to be better educated in history and economics, because you're not doing yourself or your cause any good.
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Old 29th January 2019, 04:34 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Some entity with concerns other than profit, profit, and more profit.



I mentioned Japan. The firebombing of Tokyo was unnecessary. It's said that before Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Japanese had offered to surrender if they could keep their emperor, that the Americans dropped the bombs then accepted the same terms. Maybe this is speculation, but given the USA's record, forgive my skepticism...


etc.)
We can add World War 2 in the Pacific to the list of things you are not an expert on.....
The Emperor was not the major sticking point in the Japanese "Surrender" offers before the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima. The sticking point was Japan was insisting on no occupation, disarming itself,and conducting it's own war crime trials, and was vague about evacuating it troops from China and Manchuria.
The Allies saw what happened with Germany when, in 1918, they allowed an aggressor nation to "disarm" itself, and were not going to repeat the mistake.
I think they were also concerned that if there was no occupatation,the myth that Japan did not really lose the war would begin, the way it did in Germany post 1918, and ten or so years later they would have to another war with Japan to fight.
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Old 30th January 2019, 01:33 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post

Anyway, the majority of the stuff in the book we have not arrived at yet. For example, the distribution of lands to the people so that they can grow food for themselves and for the cities. Doesn't everyone have the right to a patch of ground to cultivate?
Hi again, Shankara. I hope you are learning from the responses you are generating here.
Your point about redistribution of land is based on the same faulty premises, and ignorance of history and economics, as the rest of them.
Of course everyone has the right to own land, although this would seem to contradict the idea of collectivism and socialism you intially espoused. However, what do you think would happen if all 70 million inhabitants of the UK were somehow given a piece of arable land? Would there be any national parks or wilderness areas left? This would destroy the landscape, as well as creating an enormously inefficient system of subsistence farming, akin to medieval strip farming, that was abandoned centuries ago.
Can you provide any details about how much arable land there is in the UK, and how much would be needed to support the population?
Then there's the inconvenient presence of winter. Are you suggesting we live off root vegetables for 4 months of the year? Do we give up rice, bananas, chocolate, tea, coffee, and all the other things we are not allowed- by the rules of your doctrine- to buy from other countries?
This, by the way, has been tried before, in a country called Cambodia. The result was the deaths of around 25% of the population. This, it may surprise you to learn, is not a situation I would welcome in the UK, or indeed anywhere else.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Or what about the distribution of a company's profits among all the workers? Why does some fatcat CEO who doesn't even work as hard as they do have the right to the profits they have created?
Again, it is clear you mean well, but you have no idea what you're talking about. As I and others have recommended, do some research before posting things like this. The reality is somewhat different:
Quote:
The study, launched in 2006 by Harvard professors Michael Porter and Nitin Nohria, tracked how 27 CEOs (only two women and 25 men) of companies with an average annual revenue of $13.1 billion spent their days. Data was collected from the CEOs in 15 minutes increments, 24 hours a day, seven days a week for three months. Overall, the study collected 60,000 CEO hours.

It reveals, on average, the leaders worked 9.7 hours per weekday, which totals just 48.5 hours per workweek. They also worked 79 percent of weekend days at an average of 3.9 hours daily, and 70 percent of vacation days with an average of 2.4 hours on those days. Altogether, the study found that CEOs worked an average of 62.5 hours a week.

(The average American works 44 hours per week, or 8.8 hours per day, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, with nearly a third reportedly working on the weekend.)
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/20/harv...o-all-day.html
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Old 30th January 2019, 05:16 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Samael Aun Weor
The GREAT INTELLECTUALS have failed completely as is demonstrating ad nauseam the catastrophic state in which we find ourselves.

INTELLECTUAL GENTLEMEN! There you have your world, the chaotic and miserable world that you have created with all your theories.

The facts are speaking for you: You have failed! Proud intellectuals.
Honestly I'm getting a little bored of this. I don't have time to defend ideas which aren't even exactly those in the books I was originally talking about. Spiritual Socialism is not Dialectical-Materialist Socialism, nor is it Capitalism or Fascism.

So please don't be offended if I don't continue posting too regularly here.

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Europe is enjoying a long stretch of peace.
It has been a long time since there has been a shooting war on the continent, and that is unique in European history. And European history is very long, and every political idea was invented, and invested in at some point by one or more European country.

If you don't see the current European model as a success you're just another fascist.
Well then I'm a fascist because I don't believe that a hollow and apathetic culture of zombies staring at televisions is such a positive thing. Sure, no wars, they're holding out for the big atomic one.


Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The British will sort it out. Brexit isn't even the dumbest thing they've ever tried.
They will go down with the ship "USA"


Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Sorry, Central and South America have been devoid of serious US activities since the fall of 2001. Hugo Chavez and Daniel Ortega are proof of our absence, and represent the true face of socialism. The only crime the US is guilty of these days is our out-of-control drug use, which finances pure evil in places like Mexico, Colombia, and Peru. But drugs are a social issue, not government sanctioned.
I think Chavez was a very decent human being. Capitalism is a mafia, it renders other systems impossible. What's happening in Venezuela is caused partly by the external force of capitalism and partly by misguided European socialist ideas which have unfortunately infected the Bolivarian Revolution.

Anyway, we don't see what the American government actually gets up to in terms of destabilizing places which challenge the Neo-Liberal Orthodoxy. CIA black ops etc.


Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Cool, here's your first economic lesson:

Shareholders are regular people. Shareholders are unions who invest in stocks to ensure that pensions can be paid. Shareholders are workers with IRA's saving for their own retirements. Shareholders are non-profits who use their dividends to fund their charitable works.

Can a person get rich from the stock market? Sure.

But most shareholders are hard working people.
Great. Still it would be better for profits to go directly to the workers.


Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Then we're left with large privately owned companies who answer to no one. Good thinking.
They would be owned by and accountable to their workers (and maybe those who buy their products).

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Wow, you weren't joking about not knowing anything about economics.

The more money people make the more money they have to spend. A business's job is to make money by selling a product or products. The more people that can buy their product the more money they can make, so the idea that business requires some countries to be poor is a bad business model.
Well I dunno. Producing things for very low prices in tax and duty free zones of poor countries then selling the things at very high prices in richer countries... Otherwise they could produce them at much higher prices and sell more of them outside of presently rich countries. I think it would work out about the same, wouldn't it? Not wanting to be a heretic against the holy dogma of Neo-liberalism or anything.

I've studied a little bit of economics, not so much. "The LORD preserveth the simple".



Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Pinochet hasn't been in power since 1990. That's 29 years. Show us how the US is oppressing Argentina today.
Chile, you mean? Well, maybe it was some time ago, but if it wasn't for Pinochet's coup the political landscape of South America right now might be quite different...

I don't know everything they get up to, but I see the agenda and I know they are manipulating in support of it...

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Hold on, Commrad, Venezuala's "different system" has generated 4 million refugees in neighboring Colombia who are fleeing a nightmare state. Hugo Chavez took a malfunction democracy and turned it into the very thing you claim you hate. He put his moronic, sadistic cronies in charge of the economy, and the result is the turmoil, and state sponsored murder they have now.

https://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela#

The truth is that the United States stepped away from Central and South America and Putin stepped in, and the people you claim to care about have suffered.
I) External pressure from the USA etc.
II) Internal pressure from (anti-Bolivarian) Marxists

Is responsible for the chaos in Venezuela. For example of the former, look at this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwcnnB691T0

He has the arrogance to effectively openly admit that the Americans are using financial pressure to create regime change! Then he goes on about how "profitable" it would be if they take control of Venezuela's oil. This shows how powerful the propaganda is with which we are indoctrinated, that they can speak openly about their agenda and still most people won't believe in it.

Admittedly, Maduro isn't a leader of Chavez's qualities and he could be doing a lot better...
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Old 30th January 2019, 05:17 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The flaw with this thinking is that not all businesses operate at a vast profit margin. Workers in agriculture would make less than workers at textile plants, and those workers would make less than those who do construction.

The model does not take the real world into account in any way. Under the model as you describe so workers would be less equal than others.

This was the problem in the Soviet Union, and it is the problem today in China, where travel is restricted within the country to keep people working on farms from abandoning their jobs to seek better paying work in the big industrial cities. The Soviets had to build a wall and plant landmines to prevent citizens from fleeing the system you're advocating.
There would of course have to be some kind of system of distribution of profits to ensure distributive justice. Personally I would much prefer to work on a farm than in a factory or at a desk.

And we're not talking about the Dialectical-Materialist (European) Socialism of the USSR and China.
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Old 30th January 2019, 05:27 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Hi again, Shankara. I hope you are learning from the responses you are generating here.
All Hail Capitalist Orthodoxy! My eyes have been opened and I bow before the Holy Corporation!

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Your point about redistribution of land is based on the same faulty premises, and ignorance of history and economics, as the rest of them.
Of course everyone has the right to own land, although this would seem to contradict the idea of collectivism and socialism you intially espoused. However, what do you think would happen if all 70 million inhabitants of the UK were somehow given a piece of arable land? Would there be any national parks or wilderness areas left? This would destroy the landscape, as well as creating an enormously inefficient system of subsistence farming, akin to medieval strip farming, that was abandoned centuries ago.
Can you provide any details about how much arable land there is in the UK, and how much would be needed to support the population?
Then there's the inconvenient presence of winter. Are you suggesting we live off root vegetables for 4 months of the year? Do we give up rice, bananas, chocolate, tea, coffee, and all the other things we are not allowed- by the rules of your doctrine- to buy from other countries?
I'm not saying there should be no global trade. Just that there shouldn't be the thing which we have now.

(Some) Ideas applicable to Latin America aren't applicable to here.

Industrial farming isn't more efficient than small scale farming, it just allows large corporations to be producers rather than individuals.



Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This, by the way, has been tried before, in a country called Cambodia. The result was the deaths of around 25% of the population. This, it may surprise you to learn, is not a situation I would welcome in the UK, or indeed anywhere else.
(Oops shared the wrong book...)

Again, Samael is talking about Latin America... Again, he's not saying to end all international trade...


Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Again, it is clear you mean well, but you have no idea what you're talking about. As I and others have recommended, do some research before posting things like this. The reality is somewhat different:


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/20/harv...o-all-day.html
Ahah! Everyone who works long hours should be paid millions every year!

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Old 30th January 2019, 05:31 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The Japanese proposed surrender with the Russians first.

Roosevelt laid out the objective in his speech after Pearl Harbor (you know, that thing where Japan attacked a neutral country) was the complete surrender of Japan on our terms.

We firebombed a lot of Japanese cites, Tokyo was just next on the list. What you ignore is the war itself. The bombing of Japan didn't happen in a vacuum, we were fighting a brutal war in the islands of the Pacific. To end the war with Japan it boiled down to the numbers. Look at the last two campaigns before we dropped the two A-bombs:

Iwo Jima - US had, 6,821 killed, 26,000 wounded. Japan had around 18,000 killed.

Okinawa - 12,520 killed, 49,000 wounded. Japan had 11,000 soldiers killed, and another 40,000 to 150,000 civilians killed (the Japanese had no problem putting citizens in the line of fire, BTW).

The planning to invade Japan project 400,000 to 800,000 US casualties, and up to 5 million Japanese dead. US military planners actually hand 500,000 Purple Heart medals minted in anticipation of the US invasion of Japan (*fun fact, we've been handing those medals out ever since. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan WIA all got medals minted in 1945).

So yes, we dropped two well earned atomic bombs on Japan, and actually saved lives on both sides in the process.

If you believe in the philosophy you're trying to advance then you need to be better educated in history and economics, because you're not doing yourself or your cause any good.
Ok, WW2 was admittedly complex.

Vietnam, less so.

3 MILLION VIETNAMESE DEAD.
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Old 30th January 2019, 10:46 AM   #53
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MY CONCLUSION

Ok, so I'm going to leave off posting here because I think we're going to end up just going 'round in circles. As a final note I'd like to make a couple of points.

STRAW MAN

This whole discussion is in a certain sense a big straw man fallacy. I tried to sum up a few of Samael's theories, but these are in the end only my interpretations.

For one, I'm not wise enough to put across his theories without losing some of their subtle shades of meaning. In attempting to explain them, I'm taking them out of their context. Furthermore, he took two books to lay his philosophy out and I'm trying to do so in a couple of thousand words (which is still too long for most people to read...).

I also added, in the original essay, some of my own interpretations about how Samael's might be communicating something different if he was here now. These interpretations may not be 100% correct. For example, he might be more concerned about China than the USA.

INTELLECTUALISM

Personally I feel that there are some very noble intellectuals out there who really want to improve the world. There are also a lot of people intoxicated with theories, an intoxication which unfortunately can seem to some others like genius...

This quote from "The Social Christ" kind of sums it up for me:

Originally Posted by Samael Aun Weor
The conscious resolution of this problem does not depend on any type of political ideology of the right or the left-wing, on Communism or on capitalism. This problem is not a question of opinions or of ideas. Ideas change constantly and the opinions emitted on so weighty a problem can be disputed.

The issue is more serious than that. We must solve the great problem of the individual and the society.

The opinions of the intellectuals of the right or the left-wing will not be able to solve this problem because these kinds of intellectual opinions are conditioned by the theories that they have read and studied. The mind of the leaders of right or left-wing it is in fact bottled up in what they are studying, and unsurprisingly, their thoughts and opinions are a function of whatever they are bottled up in.

Really only we will be able to solve the great problem of the individual and the society, by getting rid of the influence of all propaganda. The problem cannot be solved by opinions nor by political propaganda. We should solve the problem ourselves. We need learn how to think for ourselves. No leader, nor any book, can solve this problem for us.
VENEZUELA

Obviously it looks in the mainstream media like something very terrible is going on there. But we all understand how the media often serves an apparatus of propaganda for elites, don't we? Not necessarily even in a conspiracy theory way but in the way that Chomsky explained it.

I'm not from South America and have never lived there, however I know someone who has lived there for a while and who's recently made a podcast with his take on the situation... Link

Perhaps his insights will prove more valuable than those from Europe and the USA, seeing as our ideas are perhaps tainted with a certain (unjustified) feeling of cultural superiority, a colonial mentality which hasn't entirely vanished.

Last edited by shankara; 30th January 2019 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 30th January 2019, 10:58 AM   #54
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Good luck! By the way, if you think that the misery in Venezuela is a creation of the media, you have a lot of work to do. Millions of people do not flee their country because of some propaganda. That's reality, sad to say. Chomsky was 100% dead wrong about almost every communist he ever discussed, so why not try reading another point of view?
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Old 30th January 2019, 11:52 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Good luck! By the way, if you think that the misery in Venezuela is a creation of the media, you have a lot of work to do. Millions of people do not flee their country because of some propaganda. That's reality, sad to say. Chomsky was 100% dead wrong about almost every communist he ever discussed, so why not try reading another point of view?
How Chomsky keeps his reputation is beyond me, given how wrong he has been. Remember how the guy was a big supporter of Pol Pot even after the revelations about the killing fields came out? RFemember his playing footsy with Holocaust Deniers?
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Old 30th January 2019, 11:53 AM   #56
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"I think Chavez was a very decent human being"
shankara, you should visit with people who lived there before he came to power and after. He ruined a good country for his benefit. History is not on the same side of him as you.
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Old 30th January 2019, 11:59 AM   #57
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It's the old "Our Monsters Are Better Than Your Monsters" canard.
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Old 30th January 2019, 01:04 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I mentioned Japan. The firebombing of Tokyo was unnecessary. It's said that before Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Japanese had offered to surrender if they could keep their emperor, that the Americans dropped the bombs then accepted the same terms. Maybe this is speculation, but given the USA's record, forgive my skepticism...
That's not skepticism, that's historical ignorance.

The Japanese offer to surrender was an offer to stop hostilities against the US. It was not a surrender. Under what the Japanese offered:

a. Hostilities against the US, Australians and the UK would cease in the Pacific and SE Asia/Burma Theatres;
b. There would be an exchange of prisoners;
b. There would be no occupation of Japan;
c. The Emperor would remain in charge;
d. The Government of Japan would not be required to change (ie. the group that started the war got to hold onto power); and
e. There would be no withdrawal from Korea, China or Indo-China (meaning that 10s of 1000s of Chinese people would still be getting killed, Korean girls would still be conscripted as prostitutes, etc.).

That boils down to "Lets stop fighting each other, I've still got this other person I need to keep beating up and taking their lunch money."
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Old 30th January 2019, 01:39 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
"I think Chavez was a very decent human being"
shankara, you should visit with people who lived there before he came to power and after. He ruined a good country for his benefit. History is not on the same side of him as you.

And a lot of people thought that Uncle Joe Stalin was a great humanitarian, as well.
And leaving, his motives, aside, CHavez was just plain incredibly incompetent as a national leader.
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Old 30th January 2019, 01:41 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
That's not skepticism, that's historical ignorance.

The Japanese offer to surrender was an offer to stop hostilities against the US. It was not a surrender. Under what the Japanese offered:

a. Hostilities against the US, Australians and the UK would cease in the Pacific and SE Asia/Burma Theatres;
b. There would be an exchange of prisoners;
b. There would be no occupation of Japan;
c. The Emperor would remain in charge;
d. The Government of Japan would not be required to change (ie. the group that started the war got to hold onto power); and
e. There would be no withdrawal from Korea, China or Indo-China (meaning that 10s of 1000s of Chinese people would still be getting killed, Korean girls would still be conscripted as prostitutes, etc.).

That boils down to "Lets stop fighting each other, I've still got this other person I need to keep beating up and taking their lunch money."
He also has his chronology screwed up;the fire bombings of Tokyo took place in March and APril of 1945, a few months before the Japanese "Surrender" offers.
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Old 30th January 2019, 02:43 PM   #61
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This post is only intended as a footnote refuting a couple of the claims made above. My last post contains the arguments which are actually of importance.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
He also has his chronology screwed up;the fire bombings of Tokyo took place in March and APril of 1945, a few months before the Japanese "Surrender" offers.
I mentioned Tokyo without mentioning the time at which the bombing took place.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
The firebombing of Tokyo was unnecessary. It's said that before Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Japanese had offered to surrender if they could keep their emperor, that the Americans dropped the bombs then accepted the same terms.




Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
How Chomsky keeps his reputation is beyond me, given how wrong he has been. Remember how the guy was a big supporter of Pol Pot even after the revelations about the killing fields came out? Remember his playing footsy with Holocaust Deniers?
So basically in Cambodia they didn't have so much information and were simply trying to find the truth amidst the sources and pointing out the disparities in media reports. They definitely didn't stick to the story after the facts showed otherwise.

(Interesting by the way how you are ignoring my statement about the US killing 3 million in Vietnam...)

And as for the Holocaust Revisionism business, Chomsky was simply defending freedom of speech.

But why are we talking about Chomsky, anyway? All I said was that the mass media is biased:


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
"Not necessarily even in a conspiracy theory way but in the way that Chomsky explained it."
Still, I'll include this quote as I happen to like the venerable old fellow...

Originally Posted by Edward S Herman
His further assertion that Noam Chomsky attributed the deaths of the Pol Pot era to ''nothing but'' a war-induced famine is an outright lie. Mr. Chomsky (and the present writer, who was co-author with Mr. Chomsky of his published works on Cambodia) went to great pains to stress that there was no doubt that the Khmer Rouge was committing serious crimes, although we took no position on their scale (which was very uncertain at the time). We focused mainly and openly on the uses to which the West was putting the Khmer Rouge terror, the removal of history and context, the serious distortions of evidence and the selectivity of attention. These were perfectly legitimate subjects in themselves, justified even more by the fact that the West wasn't even proposing doing anything useful for the victims, and by the sequel in which the ousted Pol Pot was quietly rehabilitated as a Western ''freedom fighter.''





Originally Posted by bknight View Post
"I think Chavez was a very decent human being"
shankara, you should visit with people who lived there before he came to power and after. He ruined a good country for his benefit. History is not on the same side of him as you.
As I stated and as is stated in the podcast, Chavez and his successor are not responsible for:
I) The external pressure of the capitalist USA
II) The internal pressure of Marxist (non-Bolivarian) elements

This is the major part of what is spoiling the country. I highly recommend you listen to the podcast I linked to above by someone with a much clearer perspective than me.

By the way, I wonder what history will make of Elliot Abrams???

Last edited by shankara; 30th January 2019 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 30th January 2019, 03:11 PM   #62
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OK, shankara, you go ahead and have the last word.

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Old 30th January 2019, 03:21 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
...

As I stated and as is stated in the podcast, Chavez and his successor are not responsible for:
I) The external pressure of the capitalist USA
II) The internal pressure of Marxist (non-Bolivarian) elements

This is the major part of what is spoiling the country. I highly recommend you listen to the ...
You quote that you believe that Chavez was a decent human being. My retort was that he wasn't and the rest of the world has a far different viewpoint concerning him than you. Defend that position, not just one of a pod-cast.
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Old 30th January 2019, 03:30 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
You quote that you believe that Chavez was a decent human being. My retort was that he wasn't and the rest of the world has a far different viewpoint concerning him than you. Defend that position, not just one of a pod-cast.
Like I said, the person who made that podcast actually lives in Latin America and has more awareness than me.

You are all of course free to continue the discussion. I have made all the arguments I wish to make, in relation to spiritual socialism which was the original subject of this thread, not specifically Venezuela. The Bolivarian revolution is not quite the same topic, interesting as it is.

Ciao!

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Old 30th January 2019, 04:44 PM   #65
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OK, shankara, you get the last word then. Peace be with you.
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Old 30th January 2019, 05:25 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Like I said, the person who made that podcast actually lives in Latin America and has more awareness than me.

You are all of course free to continue the discussion. I have made all the arguments I wish to make, in relation to spiritual socialism which was the original subject of this thread, not specifically Venezuela. The Bolivarian revolution is not quite the same topic, interesting as it is.

Ciao!
Is this the "You've made me look like my view is not consistent with the evidence, so I'm leaving" flounce?
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Old 30th January 2019, 07:13 PM   #67
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Very upset that the OP only used font size 6 (he could have gone to 7!!) and didn't apply any color. What has this World come to!
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Old 31st January 2019, 01:25 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Very upset that the OP only used font size 6 (he could have gone to 7!!) and didn't apply any color. What has this World come to!
There was also nowhere near enough punctuation.
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Old 31st January 2019, 01:26 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Is this the "You've made me look like my view is not consistent with the evidence, so I'm leaving" flounce?
I rather think it is.
I think we were all supposed to go "Oh WOW! That's AMAZING!", rather than actually examine the ideas put forward.
Ah, well. Perhaps he's learned something from this.
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Old 31st January 2019, 01:41 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
INTELLECTUALISM

There are also a lot of people intoxicated with theories, an intoxication which unfortunately can seem to some others like genius.. naive and ignorant preaching.
Tweaked that a little. Was I alone in seeing the stunning irony here?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
This quote from "The Social Christ" kind of sums it up for me:
Originally Posted by Someone Or Other
The conscious resolution of this problem does not depend on any type of political ideology of spiritual socialism, . This problem is not a question of opinions or of ideas. Ideas change constantly and the opinions emitted on so weighty a problem can be disputed.

The issue is more serious than that. We must solve the great problem of the individual and the society.

The opinions of the intellectuals of spiritual socialism will not be able to solve this problem because these kinds of intellectual opinions are conditioned by the theories that they have read and studied. The mind of the leaders of spiritual socialism it is in fact bottled up in what they are studying, and unsurprisingly, their thoughts and opinions are a function of whatever they are bottled up in.

Really only we will be able to solve the great problem of the individual and the society, by getting rid of the influence of all propaganda. The problem cannot be solved by opinions nor by political propaganda. We should solve the problem ourselves. We need learn how to think for ourselves. No leader, nor any book, can solve this problem for us.
It is my hope that Shankara, and others like him, will see how this quote, with a little editing, applies in equal measure to his own approach.
Not one of the ideas put forward as a result of blind adherence to Samael's writings has survived its first encounter with reality.
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Old 31st January 2019, 03:53 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I rather think it is.
I think we were all supposed to go "Oh WOW! That's AMAZING!", rather than actually examine the ideas put forward.
Ah, well. Perhaps he's learned something from this.
No, I was expecting a lot of resistance. Samael isn't exactly everyone's cup of tea.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Tweaked that a little. Was I alone in seeing the stunning irony here?



It is my hope that Shankara, and others like him, will see how this quote, with a little editing, applies in equal measure to his own approach.
Not one of the ideas put forward as a result of blind adherence to Samael's writings has survived its first encounter with reality.

"Shankara and others like him"
... because I'm obviously brainwashed or something? I think I could throw an accusation like that right back at the majority of human beings, considering the chaos on this planet and the lies we're being fed.

"will see how this quote, with a little editing, applies in equal measure to his own approach."... Do you think so? Because to me he's talking about the fact of finding a middle way between extremes, neither the left nor the right having the whole picture.

"blind adherence to Samael's writings"
... yes, that's it, we're unquestioning drones, we all accept the dogmas of the Gnostic church however irrational they are. Maybe there are people "in the Gnosis" like that, but I hope I'm not one of them.

I read a bit and I meditate a bit. I don't mean just Samael's books or just religious books, it's necessary to have a healthy balance, to be a little eclectic. I think that reading and meditation go together rather well. Reading stimulates the intellect. Meditation stops us from being enslaved by the intellect.

"THINK FOR YOURSELF, QUESTION AUTHORITY"
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Old 31st January 2019, 04:43 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post

"THINK FOR YOURSELF, QUESTION AUTHORITY"
Spoken with the arrogance and egocentricity of the typical conspiracy theorist. No-one else could possibly have asked the same questions and come up with a different answer now could they?

Don't assume that people haven't already questioned things just because they disagree with you, they might just have been more prepared to listen to the answers they were given.
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Old 31st January 2019, 06:23 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
Spoken with the arrogance and egocentricity of the typical conspiracy theorist. No-one else could possibly have asked the same questions and come up with a different answer now could they?

Don't assume that people haven't already questioned things just because they disagree with you, they might just have been more prepared to listen to the answers they were given.
Well that's kind of an interesting thing, isn't it... To be honest I think I wrote that because it seemed like the guy was accusing me of being brainwashed or something.

But honestly, no I don't think that all people are capable of thinking for themselves. Not even most people. That's the sad fact of situation on earth planet.

Originally Posted by Samael Aun Weor
Human Reason is no longer able to think spontaneously, it is degenerate and only repeats like cassette players or parrots, everything that is stored in the cellar of memory.

When someone challenges us, immediately we respond with what we have stored in memory, but if this fails we are lost because we are no longer able to answer.
It's true isn't it, a lot of conspiracy theorists talk about AWAKENING. You're probably right, a lot of those theories may be very fantastical, but the basic notion that we are being lied to and led to the slaughter to me seems correct - we genuinely do have to AWAKEN. Think Plato's allegory of the cave.

So, I kind of went with that quote just because I wanted to find some nice quote with which to end my participation in this thread, which I'm feeling is basically pointless... But maybe should find another one...


"EMANCIPATE YOURSELVES FROM MENTAL SLAVERY
NONE BUT OURSELVES CAN FREE OUR MINDS"
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Old 31st January 2019, 06:52 AM   #74
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So, just to make sure I understand...

To urge us to think for ourselves and be individuals, you're using well-known (and examined) examples from 2000+ years ago and quoting over-used slogans?

Seems legit.
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Old 31st January 2019, 07:35 AM   #75
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THINK FOR YOUR QUESTION, AUTHORIZE SELF!

QUESTION YOURSELF, AUTHORIZE THINK! FOR!

AUTHORITY QUESTIONS FOR YOU TO THINK!

AUTHOR YOU FORITY QUESTIONS! GEE, YA THINK?

This is like being back in the sixties.
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Old 31st January 2019, 08:07 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post

I read a bit and I meditate a bit. I don't mean just Samael's books or just religious books, it's necessary to have a healthy balance, to be a little eclectic. I think that reading and meditation go together rather well. Reading stimulates the intellect. Meditation stops us from being enslaved by the intellect.
I more or less agree with your approach, but I question how meditation relates to "being enslaved by the intellect." Meditation helps the mind from getting enslaved by ... almost anything really. Training the mind in mindfulness can help us from being enslaved by our emotions more than anything. I would encourage you to try just meditating for meditation's sake, rather than using it toward any gain in terms of intellectual growth. A little metta (loving-kindness) and some gratitude work doesn't hurt either.

Last edited by carlitos; 31st January 2019 at 08:09 AM. Reason: deleting snark
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Old 31st January 2019, 08:34 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Can’t be bothered to read this article…? You might find it interesting...
Maybe so, but then I can't be bothered to read it.
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Old 31st January 2019, 01:03 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Tweaked that a little. Was I alone in seeing the stunning irony here?



It is my hope that Shankara, and others like him, will see how this quote, with a little editing, applies in equal measure to his own approach.
Not one of the ideas put forward as a result of blind adherence to Samael's writings has survived its first encounter with reality.
Shankara attack on intelleculism is amusing giver the fate of anybody considered an intellectual in that Utopia that Pol Pot created in Cambodia.
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Old 31st January 2019, 03:15 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
Spoken with the arrogance and egocentricity of the typical conspiracy theorist. No-one else could possibly have asked the same questions and come up with a different answer now could they?

Don't assume that people haven't already questioned things just because they disagree with you, they might just have been more prepared to listen to the answers they were given.
And it's amazing how often people who scream "think for yourselves! Question Authority!" turn out to be the most blind,unquestioning followers of an ideology that you could imagine.
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Old 31st January 2019, 06:41 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
A lot of people have been talking lately about "Agenda 21". I don't think that the value of the article exactly rests on whether or not that is correct. Also, has anyone actually had a look at the books themselves?
I don't care what a lot of people are talking about. Just because there are "a lot" of them, doesn't mean they are right.
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