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Old 6th February 2019, 02:24 PM   #121
mgardner
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like most socialist articles, this is just a really long winded way of saying "give me all your stuff"
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Old 6th February 2019, 02:36 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
And the reasoning is not too sharp, but that belongs in another thread.
Not too sharp? Why, if I took that reasoning, heated it white hot, hammered it on a forge, then ground and sharpened the edges, it'd cut to us to ribbons!
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Old 6th February 2019, 05:37 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Not too sharp? Why, if I took that reasoning, heated it white hot, hammered it on a forge, then ground and sharpened the edges, it'd cut to us to ribbons!
My comment was not directed at Axxmann300,I fit wasn't evident.
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Old 6th February 2019, 10:36 PM   #124
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:32 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I'll go over what you all said briefly. Of course if I respond then you make out that I'm some kind of simpleton way too uneducated to comprehend your sublime discourse and if I don't want to hang around fighting a pointless battle then I'm easily offended or melodramatically acting wounded. We've strayed quite a long way from the original points as well.
You could approach it like this. Alternatively, you could accept that you, like me and everyone else, are capable of being wrong about things. How you deal with this is, of course, entirely up to you. The productive way would be- as I mentioned a while back- to show some humility, and be happy that you've learned something. You can then use this knowledge to refine your ideas and conclusions, and so become a better person.
The other way is to retreat into self-pity, and blame everyone else for your own deficiencies. (It will be easier to take the former choice once you hit your twenties, by the way).


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
- Of course a Zygote is a child, it's a unique genetic existence.
We can now add biology to the list of subjects you really need to read up on.


Originally Posted by shankara View Post

- Have I ever spoken to women about this? Yes, and unfortunately many women are conditioned by the feminist agenda to get angry when the notion of self-responsibility is suggested to them.
Or, in other words, they disagreed with you quite strongly and that must be a result of their 'conditioning', and not that the idea of forcing a woman to have the child of her rapist, and then removing that child, is one of monstrous cruelty, which no-one with an ounce of human empathy would support.
Got it.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I've also spoken to women who agree with me that life begins from the moment of conception.
Now, now. Don't be disingenious, old chap- it's unbecoming. Not what I was talking about at all, and you know it.
Still, as you mention it: why is it that you don't think these women have been conditioned by a religious agenda to believe this?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
- Am I demonstrating that spiritual intuition is better than logic? The characteristic of spiritual awakening is that forces of darkness attack it.
Are you seriously portraying anyone who disagrees with you as part of the "forces of darkness"? Wow.


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
- I "sound like a 9/11 Truther"? Is that a bad thing? Because yes of course I'm a 9/11 Truther.
Yes, it is a bad thing. It demonstrates your poor critical thinking, your lack of awareness of the facts of the matter, and also reinforces your apparent anti-American stance.
Why are you "of course" a Truther?
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Old 7th February 2019, 07:00 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You could approach it like this. Alternatively, you could accept that you, like me and everyone else, are capable of being wrong about things. How you deal with this is, of course, entirely up to you. The productive way would be- as I mentioned a while back- to show some humility, and be happy that you've learned something. You can then use this knowledge to refine your ideas and conclusions, and so become a better person.
The other way is to retreat into self-pity, and blame everyone else for your own deficiencies. (It will be easier to take the former choice once you hit your twenties, by the way).
Man, we are all parts of the forces of darkness but some of us are trying to be devotees of the forces of light. You talk about becoming a better person, to me that means lots of mantra, meditation, learning to get in touch with the BEING within me and free from the ego. Humility? I think it's rich for people to talk of humility when they think that they're bigger than Divinity (by the way, if you want to be humbled, go find a good shaman and drink some Yage...) "Humble to God, haughty to man". And like Carl Jung, I know there is a God.

In fact I believe that RATIONALITY in the sense of LOGOS arrives at the same conclusions as INTUITION. One supports the other, heart and brain. But I mean, look at this thread. I post something criticizing Dialectical Materialism and we've barely even discussed Dialectical Materialism, you're too busy finding whatever points of what I said might be (or just seem to be, because really I'm not sure of the intellectual honesty of everyone here) easily attacked. Japan is relevant, Vietnam not. The whole thing is just an example of groupthink, trying to bring me back to a more "socially acceptable" way of thinking because that's just the way humanity is, scared of ideas coming from somewhere beyond the limits of what they consider normal.

I mean, let's face it, you'd already made up your mind that I was wrong before you'd made any real study of what I was saying... Because I looked at the stats from my site and not many people have downloaded the books I translated. Which is fine, they probably would be of no use to you, but don't criticize what you don't understand.

If I wasn't capable of self-criticism I wouldn't be interested in following some spiritual path because spirituality is self-improvement. Unfortunately there are things which are invisible until you open your heart to them, it's like the Bible says "Be still and know that I am God". Get free from what the Zen people call "monkey mind"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz9EakZzPzI
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:11 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
My comment was not directed at Axxmann300,I fit wasn't evident.
Sorry, I should have added the sarcasm smiley. I was implying that the reasoning was about as sharp as a base iron rod (i.e.-it would take forging and shaping to turn it sharp).
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:14 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Sorry, I should have added the sarcasm smiley. I was implying that the reasoning was about as sharp as a base iron rod (i.e.-it would take forging and shaping to turn it sharp).
No problem, I find some of the comments were/are sarcastic, but the nuances evade me at times.
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Old 7th February 2019, 09:41 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Or, in other words, they disagreed with you quite strongly and that must be a result of their 'conditioning', and not that the idea of forcing a woman to have the child of her rapist, and then removing that child, is one of monstrous cruelty, which no-one with an ounce of human empathy would support.
Got it.
Ok, I feel I should deal with this as a final point because, yeah, it sounds pretty harsh. I do believe, yes, that a child conceived by rape is nonetheless a human being and shouldn't be killed due to it's origins. I also believe that not killing the innocent child would prove to be a process of healing for the woman.

As for the idea of forcible adoption, well, I just thought that ultimately it might be better for the woman's process of healing not to be reminded constantly of what happened to her (even if at first, yes, it would be painful and difficult).

It was just an idea I had.
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:48 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Ok, I feel I should deal with this as a final point because, yeah, it sounds pretty harsh. I do believe, yes, that a child conceived by rape is nonetheless a human being and shouldn't be killed due to it's origins. I also believe that not killing the innocent child would prove to be a process of healing for the woman.

As for the idea of forcible adoption, well, I just thought that ultimately it might be better for the woman's process of healing not to be reminded constantly of what happened to her (even if at first, yes, it would be painful and difficult).

It was just an idea I had.
How noble of you.
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:54 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
How noble of you.
He just keeps digging himself in deeper, doesn't he?
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Old 7th February 2019, 02:02 PM   #132
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It was the post before that dealt with the substance of what we were talking about here, if we want to digress to the ethics of abortion in cases of rape (the latter part of that subject not being something I raised, and which is bound to be highly controversial to say the least) lets make another thread about that.
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Old 8th February 2019, 07:15 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
He just keeps digging himself in deeper, doesn't he?
It's been my experience with the imaginary friend demographic that the stronger the delusion, the deeper the hole.
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Old 9th February 2019, 12:52 PM   #134
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...what is "Spiritual Socialism"? A bunch of spacecake eating hippie socialists or something?
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Old 10th February 2019, 02:16 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Man, we are all parts of the forces of darkness but some of us are trying to be devotees of the forces of light.
Doubling down on the accusation won't make it any less hubristic. I note the implication that most of the members of this forum are excluded from being a 'devotee of the light'. Nice.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
You talk about becoming a better person, to me that means lots of mantra, meditation, learning to get in touch with the BEING within me and free from the ego.
You claim to be free from ego, and yet here you are trying to turn this discussion into some kid of karmic dick-measuring contest.
For your information, I have done, and continue to do, plenty of meditation. I just don't feel the need to boast about it.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Humility? I think it's rich for people to talk of humility when they think that they're bigger than Divinity
Not only have I never said that, as I don't believe in "Divinity" in the first place, I fail to see how I can be measuring myself against it.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post

(by the way, if you want to be humbled, go find a good shaman and drink some Yage...)
This presumably would be in one of the South American countries your guru says are so in need of reform.
How have these shamans and their practices improved the lot of the people of South America?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
And like Carl Jung, I know there is a God.
A statement that Jung later regretted, as an incomplete and simplistic soundbite.
And, like Jung, you are wrong. You do not know there is a god: you believe there is a god.
There is a salutory lesson to be learned in other threads (in Religion & Philosophy) started by people claiming to have irrefutable proof of the existence of one god or another. Abject failure, every single time.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
In fact I believe that RATIONALITY in the sense of LOGOS arrives at the same conclusions as INTUITION. One supports the other, heart and brain.
And yet pretty much every conclusion you have come to has been wrong (voter turnout in the UK and CEO working hours being but two examples).
Your method clearly does not work.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
But I mean, look at this thread. I post something criticizing Dialectical Materialism and we've barely even discussed Dialectical Materialism,
Possibly because the thread is supposed to be about spiritual socialism.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
you're too busy finding whatever points of what I said might be (or just seem to be, because really I'm not sure of the intellectual honesty of everyone here) easily attacked.
To be brutally honest here, old bean, ALL of your points are easily attacked. If you'd done your homework before starting the thread, you could have avoided this. If you accepted correction gracefully, without throwing around accusations of egotism, intellectual dishonesty and 'groupthink' from the 'forces of darkness', you could still turn this into something you can benefit from. Up to you.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Japan is relevant, Vietnam not. The whole thing is just an example of groupthink, trying to bring me back to a more "socially acceptable" way of thinking because that's just the way humanity is, scared of ideas coming from somewhere beyond the limits of what they consider normal.
Utter bunkum. What your interlocutors are trying to do- with admirable patience and restraint- is bring you back to a way of thinking that is based in reality, and supported by evidence.
It's a skeptics' forum: this happens from time to time.
There is a wide range of opinions on this forum, and the only members who are generally scared of new ideas are the conspiracy theorists and the religious zealots. Both these groups are entrenched in dogma, and seem to be here only to win converts and snipe at anyone who disagrees with them- an approach that may seem familiar to you.


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I mean, let's face it, you'd already made up your mind that I was wrong before you'd made any real study of what I was saying... Because I looked at the stats from my site and not many people have downloaded the books I translated. Which is fine, they probably would be of no use to you, but don't criticize what you don't understand.
Actually, no. I hadn't. If you look at my first post on this thread, you will see that it directly addresses some of the points raised in the article you posted.

The problem is that, every time I do this, you refuse to acknowledge your errors, and push on to some other point. (Dialectical Materialism being the most obvious red herring). If the thread has digressed from the OP, the fault is yours.
Once again, because you seem to be having a hard time parsing this: just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are closed-minded or ignorant. That you keep saying this puts you in a very poor light.


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
If I wasn't capable of self-criticism I wouldn't be interested in following some spiritual path because spirituality is self-improvement. Unfortunately there are things which are invisible until you open your heart to them, it's like the Bible says "Be still and know that I am God". Get free from what the Zen people call "monkey mind"...
Nope. You use your so-called spirituality as a bludgeon to assert a spurious superiority over everyone you encounter.
Monkeys are all about dominance and submission. The alphas roar and puff their chests up, to show how much better they are than the rest of the group. You may wish to re-read your posts in the light of this observation.
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Old 10th February 2019, 05:20 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Doubling down on the accusation won't make it any less hubristic. I note the implication that most of the members of this forum are excluded from being a 'devotee of the light'. Nice.

There are sincere people everywhere, unfortunately not all sincere people are awakened.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You claim to be free from ego, and yet here you are trying to turn this discussion into some kid of karmic dick-measuring contest.
For your information, I have done, and continue to do, plenty of meditation. I just don't feel the need to boast about it.

Ok. I was simply saying that spiritual exercises, for me, are more important than intellectual ones.


Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Not only have I never said that, as I don't believe in "Divinity" in the first place, I fail to see how I can be measuring myself against it.

I don't BELIEVE in Divinity, I have GNOSIS of Divinity.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This presumably would be in one of the South American countries your guru says are so in need of reform.
How have these shamans and their practices improved the lot of the people of South America?

Well I dunno, but go and live as a campesino in South America for a few years and then criticize people who live that way. On both political and spiritual subjects they're the most illuminated people I've ever met, woke me up to a lot of things.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
A statement that Jung later regretted, as an incomplete and simplistic soundbite.
And, like Jung, you are wrong. You do not know there is a god: you believe there is a god.
There is a salutory lesson to be learned in other threads (in Religion & Philosophy) started by people claiming to have irrefutable proof of the existence of one god or another. Abject failure, every single time.

Jung only said he regretted having said that because the fashion in which he said it he thought would be confusing to people. There are a lot of people who have GNOSIS of Divinity (I don't like to use the term "God" so much). There are arguments for the existence of Divinity which make sense, but the intellect/mind creates constructions which seem to invalidate the arguments. Anyway, for me it is a question of GNOSIS.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And yet pretty much every conclusion you have come to has been wrong (voter turnout in the UK and CEO working hours being but two examples).
Your method clearly does not work.

Voter turnout? It's a propogandacracy, I don't care how many people turn out believing they have a free choice they don't really have.

CEO working hours? My mum used to work seventy hours a week and no-one paid her millions for it.

This is what's really getting to me here, you don't deal with the fundamental core of the issues I raise but instead deal with inessential mistakes which you portray to be essential. Distraction.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Possibly because the thread is supposed to be about spiritual socialism.

Socialism, Communism, the central pillar of which is Dialectical Materialism.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
To be brutally honest here, old bean, ALL of your points are easily attacked. If you'd done your homework before starting the thread, you could have avoided this. If you accepted correction gracefully, without throwing around accusations of egotism, intellectual dishonesty and 'groupthink' from the 'forces of darkness', you could still turn this into something you can benefit from. Up to you.

Great, for example I can learn my "first economics lesson", as if I don't know anything about economics yet. Obviously I don't just have a different opinion.


Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Utter bunkum. What your interlocutors are trying to do- with admirable patience and restraint- is bring you back to a way of thinking that is based in reality, and supported by evidence.
It's a skeptics' forum: this happens from time to time.
There is a wide range of opinions on this forum, and the only members who are generally scared of new ideas are the conspiracy theorists and the religious zealots. Both these groups are entrenched in dogma, and seem to be here only to win converts and snipe at anyone who disagrees with them- an approach that may seem familiar to you.

How can you discuss the notion of Spiritual Socialism in a way that is "based in reality" when it hasn't yet existed anywhere and when you haven't read the books which actually explain what it is. As I said, my explanations of it are not gospel, the actual books are what explains it.




Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Actually, no. I hadn't. If you look at my first post on this thread, you will see that it directly addresses some of the points raised in the article you posted.

The problem is that, every time I do this, you refuse to acknowledge your errors, and push on to some other point. (Dialectical Materialism being the most obvious red herring). If the thread has digressed from the OP, the fault is yours.
Once again, because you seem to be having a hard time parsing this: just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are closed-minded or ignorant. That you keep saying this puts you in a very poor light.
Sure, we are all free to disagree. I completely reject though that it's me that keeps changing the subject. Perhaps I am doing it, but if so, a lot of you are doing the same.



Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Nope. You use your so-called spirituality as a bludgeon to assert a spurious superiority over everyone you encounter.
Monkeys are all about dominance and submission. The alphas roar and puff their chests up, to show how much better they are than the rest of the group. You may wish to re-read your posts in the light of this observation.
You know I had exactly the same image of the people here. Perhaps that is a part of what monkey mind is, interesting idea actually. But wait, aren't you making exactly the same (or worse) kind of statement as I made in saying that people are closed-minded and ignorant? You are stating that I simply wish to assert dominance.

I'm not trying to assert my superiority. I am trying to assert the superiority of spirituality to "rationalism" in general. I am trying to assert, if not the superiority, the validity of the teachings of my Gurus in general. Example in relation to the latter: this post was placed in the conspiracy theory section without anyone actually reading the books it's about, just because people assume "oh it's Samael, that guy is a conspiracy theorists". Sure, there are a couple of conspiracy theories in the books, but actually they're a little more sophisticated than most conspiracy theories.

I'm not fighting on my own behalf, I'm fighting on behalf of Samael.

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Old 10th February 2019, 06:43 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
There is a wide range of opinions on this forum, and the only members who are generally scared of new ideas are the conspiracy theorists and the religious zealots. Both these groups are entrenched in dogma, and seem to be here only to win converts and snipe at anyone who disagrees with them- an approach that may seem familiar to you.
I hope you can at least see how Samael (and Buddha) are a whole lot saner than the type of religion which is talking about sending people to Eternal Hell for the sin of unbelief.
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Old 10th February 2019, 07:54 AM   #138
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My Bad...

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The problem is that, every time I do this, you refuse to acknowledge your errors, and push on to some other point. (Dialectical Materialism being the most obvious red herring). If the thread has digressed from the OP, the fault is yours.

Ok so I made a tiny mistake in that I didn't mention Dialectical Materialism in the article...! Though if anyone were to read the books...
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Old 10th February 2019, 03:59 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It's been my experience with the imaginary friend demographic that the stronger the delusion, the deeper the hole.
That't the case with shankara, although I don't want to paint all people with religious beliefs with that brush
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:28 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That't the case with shankara, although I don't want to paint all people with religious beliefs with that brush
There are religious people who believe that you go to hell eternally for not having the correct concept about what God is (a Trinity? a Unity? Has a Son?), who don't grasp that in fact there are simply many ways of explaining the same thing... Yet you label me as delusional based on my (perhaps admittedly poor) attempts to explain a couple of books you haven't even read and so surely don't understand...
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Old 11th February 2019, 05:32 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I hope you can at least see how Samael (and Buddha) are a whole lot saner than the type of religion which is talking about sending people to Eternal Hell for the sin of unbelief.
That Samael may be slightly less delusional than some religious believers is not, in itself, an especially positive point.
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Old 11th February 2019, 05:35 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Ok so I made a tiny mistake in that I didn't mention Dialectical Materialism in the article...! Though if anyone were to read the books...
Well spotted.

You keep going on about these books. I read the article, and was not impressed. I saw no reason to read any more: guff in greater detail is still guff.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:34 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
That Samael may be slightly less delusional than some religious believers is not, in itself, an especially positive point.
Simply making the point that you shouldn't be engaging with this on the same level that you engage with some fanatical fundamentalist so-called christian.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Well spotted.

You keep going on about these books. I read the article, and was not impressed. I saw no reason to read any more: guff in greater detail is still guff.
I wrote the article, Samael wrote the books.
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:43 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Simply making the point that you shouldn't be engaging with this on the same level that you engage with some fanatical fundamentalist so-called christian.
Why not? People are either open to persuasion, or they're not. You appear to fall into the latter category, by the way.
Before you level the same charge at me, let me be clear that I am fully prepared to be swayed by any idea you may care to present, as long as it is supported by reason and evidence. Incorrect conclusions arrived at by appealing to vaguely-defined concepts in capital letters will not suffice, I'm afraid.


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I wrote the article, Samael wrote the books.
So?
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Old 11th February 2019, 10:27 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Why not? People are either open to persuasion, or they're not. You appear to fall into the latter category, by the way.
Before you level the same charge at me, let me be clear that I am fully prepared to be swayed by any idea you may care to present, as long as it is supported by reason and evidence. Incorrect conclusions arrived at by appealing to vaguely-defined concepts in capital letters will not suffice, I'm afraid.
Honestly I don't exactly want to persuade anyone in the sense of winning converts. I mean, of course I would love it if some people got onto the same wavelength (as unfortunately even the so-called Gnostics tend to ignore me because they are [militantly] apolitical) but I agree with what Samael says:

Originally Posted by Samael Aun Weor
Dictators of the mind are as common as weeds. Everywhere there is a perverse tendency to enslave, to bottle up other people's minds, to force them to live within determined norms, prejudices, etc.

Thousands of millions of dictators of the mind have never wanted to respect the mental freedom of anyone. If someone does not think like them, he is classified as perverse, renegade, ignorant and so on.

Everybody wants to enslave everyone. Everybody wants to violate the intellectual freedom of other people. Nobody wants to respect other people's freedom of thought. Everyone feels sensible, wise, marvellous, and as it is natural, wants others to be like him, to make of him a hero, to think like him.
Of course I'm not saying that I'm immune from doing this, I have ego...

What I'm really into is Dialectics, Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis. Unfortunately in this society there isn't so much Dialectical movement as Antitheses which don't fit in with "the program" are ignored. Samael has some very interesting ideas which I'm sure could stimulate peoples' thinking and maybe lead them to discover things for themselves. Which is after all what Gnosis is, it's about experience not doctrine.

And you're right, I'm not easily persuaded, especially when it comes to things which I have experience of, mystical experiences or life experiences or whatever.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So?
Well, he is a lot more awakened than me. And more coherent intellectually. He has a type and level of intelligence which I lack.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:09 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post

Ok. I was simply saying that spiritual exercises, for me, are more important than intellectual ones.
Which is perfectly fine, until you enter a debate which touches on economics, history and biology, at which point you find yourself completely out of your depth, but unable to admit it.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I don't BELIEVE in Divinity, I have GNOSIS of Divinity.
Again, bully for you, except that we weren't talking about what you believe, we were talking about your assumption of what I believe.
For someone who claims to be interested in ego-loss, you do talk a lot about yourself, don't you?
What part of anything I have said- to steer you back to the point again- leads you to believe that I am measuring myself against some kind of "Divinity", and concluding I am superior to it?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Well I dunno, but go and live as a campesino in South America for a few years and then criticize people who live that way. On both political and spiritual subjects they're the most illuminated people I've ever met, woke me up to a lot of things.
Something I have absolutely no desire to do, and also something you have not done yourself.
In this post you say you have only visited South America "briefly".

This brings me to one of the glaring contradictions in the ideas you are putting forward here. You say- quoting your guru- that South America needs to industrialise. At the same time, you extoll the virtues of being a peasant farmer, and have called on British people to return to the land.
How can both these goals be reconciled? What will happen to your beloved peasants once industrialisation is complete? How can the UK remain industrialised if everyone goes back to the land?

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Jung only said he regretted having said that because the fashion in which he said it he thought would be confusing to people.
So, what I said, then. At least we agree on something.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
There are a lot of people who have GNOSIS of Divinity (I don't like to use the term "God" so much). There are arguments for the existence of Divinity which make sense, but the intellect/mind creates constructions which seem to invalidate the arguments. Anyway, for me it is a question of GNOSIS.
You can quibble about semantics all you like: the fact remains that there is no evidence whatsoever for any kind of god/ divinity/ supernatural being. Zero.
The reason your mind and your capacity for reasoning get in the way is because they are trying to tell you that. You really ought to listen to them.


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Voter turnout? It's a propogandacracy, I don't care how many people turn out believing they have a free choice they don't really have.
Your beliefs are irrelevant unless they are supported by evidence.
For my part, as evidence of the power of voting to change things, I present...Brexit.


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
CEO working hours? My mum used to work seventy hours a week and no-one paid her millions for it.
Not the point at all. Please stop dissembling. You claimed CEOs work shorter hours than their workers. You were wrong: deal with it.
I feel for your mother. I'm sure that, once you leave home for university, she'll be able to take a break.


Originally Posted by shankara View Post
This is what's really getting to me here, you don't deal with the fundamental core of the issues I raise but instead deal with inessential mistakes which you portray to be essential. Distraction.
It's not distraction. You have built a ideological edifice on foundations of sand. You cannot simply handwave away the numerous fallacies and errors you have used to support your/ Sameal's ideas, and expect those ideas to still stand. If you want to persuade anyone here of the validity of these ideas, you will have to show that they work. Thus far, you have failed to do so.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Great, for example I can learn my "first economics lesson", as if I don't know anything about economics yet. Obviously I don't just have a different opinion.
There's that bruised ego again.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
How can you discuss the notion of Spiritual Socialism in a way that is "based in reality" when it hasn't yet existed anywhere and when you haven't read the books which actually explain what it is. As I said, my explanations of it are not gospel, the actual books are what explains it.
Asked and answered.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
I'm not trying to assert my superiority. I am trying to assert the superiority of spirituality to "rationalism" in general. I am trying to assert, if not the superiority, the validity of the teachings of my Gurus in general.
How do you think that's going?
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:16 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Honestly I'm getting a little bored of this. I don't have time to defend ideas which aren't even exactly those in the books I was originally talking about. Spiritual Socialism is not Dialectical-Materialist Socialism, nor is it Capitalism or Fascism.
Originally Posted by shankara View Post

And we're not talking about the Dialectical-Materialist (European) Socialism of the USSR and China.
Originally Posted by shankara View Post

Samael is not against Dialectical Reason (quite the contrary), he simply doesn’t accept the Dialectical Materialism of Marx. He rejects Engel’s saying that there are Dialectical leaps, that the quantitative transforms into the qualitative:


Therefore Samael is not opposed to Scientific Socialism, but the pseudo-Science of Marx, which lacks the comprehension of metaphysics, reduces the Cosmos to “matter”, and reduces humanity to being mere machines of production and consumption, animals in need only of animal comforts.

So spiritual socialism is not about Dialectical Materialism....

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak
Possibly because the thread is supposed to be about spiritual socialism.

Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Socialism, Communism, the central pillar of which is Dialectical Materialism.
Until it is.
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Old 12th February 2019, 04:36 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Which is perfectly fine, until you enter a debate which touches on economics, history and biology, at which point you find yourself completely out of your depth, but unable to admit it.
Yeah ok, there are things which are beyond my education, I admit. I didn't do the university thing so maybe I'm a little less polished than some. That's not to say that I don't have some grasp of fundamental concepts.

For example, earlier in this thread you mentioned how global trade has lifted people out of poverty. Now I'm not quite stupid enough not to have already understood this, I simply feel that the neo-liberal way of doing things nonetheless has the tendency to enrich some and keep others close to the breadline (or below it). Can't deny this whole business about the 1%...

History, I know a little. That doesn't mean that I believe that the USA was simply misguided and trying it's best to protect democracy in Vietnam, from what I've read it really doesn't seem that way.

Biologically, I just checked and it turns out I'm right, a zygote is a genetically unique existence.

But apart from all of this:

“Thank God, I never was sent to School
To be Flogg’d into following the Stile of a Fool.”
William Blake


Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Again, bully for you, except that we weren't talking about what you believe, we were talking about your assumption of what I believe.
For someone who claims to be interested in ego-loss, you do talk a lot about yourself, don't you?
What part of anything I have said- to steer you back to the point again- leads you to believe that I am measuring myself against some kind of "Divinity", and concluding I am superior to it?
Try to understand the difference between Mind and Consciousness.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Something I have absolutely no desire to do, and also something you have not done yourself.
In this post you say you have only visited South America "briefly".

This brings me to one of the glaring contradictions in the ideas you are putting forward here. You say- quoting your guru- that South America needs to industrialise. At the same time, you extoll the virtues of being a peasant farmer, and have called on British people to return to the land.
How can both these goals be reconciled? What will happen to your beloved peasants once industrialisation is complete? How can the UK remain industrialised if everyone goes back to the land?
Did I say that the people of the UK should go back to the land and become peasant farmers? I dunno, nah, probably not feasible. But Latin America becoming self-sufficent, yeah, that seems like a good idea, get out from under the yankee/corporate boot heel.


Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So, what I said, then. At least we agree on something.
The fact remains that Jung didn't say that saying "I know there is a God" was incorrect.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You can quibble about semantics all you like: the fact remains that there is no evidence whatsoever for any kind of god/ divinity/ supernatural being. Zero.
The reason your mind and your capacity for reasoning get in the way is because they are trying to tell you that. You really ought to listen to them.
Life, Consciousness, Ergo Light, Divinity. Creation itself is clear evidence.

Originally Posted by Samael Aun Weor

That which IS REALITY has nothing to do with the three factors of BELIEF, DENIAL and SKEPTICISM.

As long as the mind is absorbed in any of these three mentioned factors, it can not experience THAT which THE CHINESE call the TAO, THAT which is DIVINE, THAT which is the TRUTH, GOD, ALLAH, BRAHMAN, etc.

Who has ever experienced THAT, it cannot be defined because if it is defined it is disfigured.

THAT which some call GOD, it is clear that it brings about a radical, total and definitive transformation.

When Pilate asked JESUS, What is the Truth? He was silent and when the BUDDHA was asked the same question, he turned his back and left.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Your beliefs are irrelevant unless they are supported by evidence.
For my part, as evidence of the power of voting to change things, I present...Brexit.
Ok, they put some process in the hands of voters... that isn't the same thing as a true democracy i.e. without propaganda and demagogues.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Not the point at all. Please stop dissembling. You claimed CEOs work shorter hours than their workers. You were wrong: deal with it.
I feel for your mother. I'm sure that, once you leave home for university, she'll be able to take a break.
I was more trying to say that CEO's remuneration is unjust, perhaps you didn't grasp the point I was actually trying to make (fault of my own manner of expression, perhaps).


Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It's not distraction. You have built a ideological edifice on foundations of sand. You cannot simply handwave away the numerous fallacies and errors you have used to support your/ Sameal's ideas, and expect those ideas to still stand. If you want to persuade anyone here of the validity of these ideas, you will have to show that they work. Thus far, you have failed to do so.
So you expect me to explain to you the ideas and justify them myself, when the book obviously both explains and justifies them. You would prefer my interpretation than the one "from the horse's mouth"?

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
There's that bruised ego again.
Again, I have the right to have a differing opinion and not to be treated as ignorant due to that fact. Again:

Originally Posted by Samael Aun Weor
Thousands of millions of dictators of the mind have never wanted to respect the mental freedom of anyone. If someone does not think like them, he is classified as perverse, renegade, ignorant and so on.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Asked and answered.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How do you think that's going?
As well as can be expected.
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Old 12th February 2019, 04:37 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So spiritual socialism is not about Dialectical Materialism....






Until it is.
Samael devoted a lot of space in the books to criticizing Dialectical Materialism. It's definitely necessary to understand it if only to understand the ways in which Samael's socialism differs from Marxism.
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Old 12th February 2019, 05:52 AM   #150
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In each and every way, it appears to me as a Marxist.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:44 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In each and every way, it appears to me as a Marxist.
What? Are you blind? I mean, the label is crimson now, instead of red, and it has that yellow "New" sticker on it! Can't be the same...
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:50 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by shankara
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak
Again, bully for you, except that we weren't talking about what you believe, we were talking about your assumption of what I believe.
For someone who claims to be interested in ego-loss, you do talk a lot about yourself, don't you?
What part of anything I have said- to steer you back to the point again- leads you to believe that I am measuring myself against some kind of "Divinity", and concluding I am superior to it?
Try to understand the difference between Mind and Consciousness.
This pisses me off. In no way, shape, matter or form is this response appropriate or relevant to the point. It's just smug BS posturing as if the spiritual one is operating on some higher plane, and doesn't have to answer questions directly from mere mortals.


Shame on you.

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Old 12th February 2019, 09:20 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
This pisses me off. In no way, shape, matter or form is this response appropriate or relevant to the point. It's just smug BS posturing as if the spiritual one is operating on some higher plane, and doesn't have to answer questions directly from mere mortals.


Shame on you.
Yeah ok sorry it was a bit of that wasn't it... It's just there's things I've experienced which I really would like to be able to explain to people and which it's rather difficult to put into words. In fact there's no point in me even trying to explain certain experiences because I don't think many people here accept the validity of mystical experience as a criteria of truth (so in a sense actually I am coming from a different plane, from a different place, whether it's "higher" or not).

And sorry Msr Yak...

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Old 12th February 2019, 09:36 AM   #154
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Thanks. That was a very gracious apology.



I won't speak for anyone else, but I accept mystical experience as evidence for itself. These experiences reveal exactly what they reveal. We can use our brain in interesting, novel ways, but the experiences is taking place inside our brain, and nowhere else. We can focus on a subject or object for a longer, more intense experience than otherwise. We can have deep thoughts that might change the ways in which we think outside of that mystical experience.



What mystical experiences don't do is change the rest of reality. Thinking that there is a hidden, as yet unrevealed "truth" in there somewhere, and you get it but I don't -- that's where I disagree.


The issue on this board is that the mystical people often use these experiences or thoughts as a cop-out from reality. They intimate that the big, mean skeptics don't get the "deep thoughts" of the mystic, as if we haven't had similar experiences or thoughts. It can be very condescending.
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:28 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Thanks. That was a very gracious apology.



I won't speak for anyone else, but I accept mystical experience as evidence for itself. These experiences reveal exactly what they reveal. We can use our brain in interesting, novel ways, but the experiences is taking place inside our brain, and nowhere else. We can focus on a subject or object for a longer, more intense experience than otherwise. We can have deep thoughts that might change the ways in which we think outside of that mystical experience.



What mystical experiences don't do is change the rest of reality. Thinking that there is a hidden, as yet unrevealed "truth" in there somewhere, and you get it but I don't -- that's where I disagree.


The issue on this board is that the mystical people often use these experiences or thoughts as a cop-out from reality. They intimate that the big, mean skeptics don't get the "deep thoughts" of the mystic, as if we haven't had similar experiences or thoughts. It can be very condescending.
Well, at the end of the day Intuition and Reason arrive at the same point.

As for whether mystical experiences are too profound to be understood by skeptics, I think that it's easy to get on an ego trip of thinking oneself very profound. At the same there can be experiences which are actually so profound that one can't even explain them to oneself. There's definitely a part of me which is like "well, did you ever try Yage/San Pedro/Mushrooms etc etc? If you haven't been there how can you understand?".

By the way, you saying that such things take place "inside our brain" in itself contains an assumption that our consciousness is merely a product of our neurology. Personally I think that consciousness is modulated by the brain, nervous system, body etc (you could say an Idealist position but I don't think that's quite it).

I think that to a lot of mystics I probably seem just as much "big, mean" as you lot do to me. A lot of mystics have no time at all for politics. Also, I have actually subjected my religious beliefs to criticism and don't have a lot of time for Abrahamic dogmas... nor for Atheistic dogmas, which are equally crazy...
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:33 PM   #156
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shankara, straight up question: Are/do you consider you are a socialist?
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Old 13th February 2019, 05:27 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
shankara, straight up question: Are/do you consider you are a socialist?
Yes, in the sense of being in favour of distributive justice, agrarian reform etc. Basically yes, economically.
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Old 13th February 2019, 07:50 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Yes, in the sense of being in favour of distributive justice, agrarian reform etc. Basically yes, economically.
Another term for redistribution of wealth that our former President loved so much.
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Old 13th February 2019, 10:20 AM   #159
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I should have used "Another euphemistic term that our former President loved so much."
That would indicate my feelings more accurately.
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Old 14th February 2019, 01:21 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by shankara View Post
Yeah ok sorry it was a bit of that wasn't it... It's just there's things I've experienced which I really would like to be able to explain to people and which it's rather difficult to put into words. In fact there's no point in me even trying to explain certain experiences because I don't think many people here accept the validity of mystical experience as a criteria of truth (so in a sense actually I am coming from a different plane, from a different place, whether it's "higher" or not).

And sorry Msr Yak...
Apology accepted.
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