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Old 4th February 2019, 12:40 PM   #41
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Which CTs "are popular among lefty types"?
The two that come to mind are anti-vax (which is not political, but certainly popular among the new-age woo types) and 9/11 trutherism.

lefty CT is largely a niche group, while the mainstream conservative community openly dabbles in conspiracy theory.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:42 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The two that come to mind are anti-vax (which is not political, but certainly popular among the new-age woo types) and 9/11 trutherism.

lefty CT is largely a niche group, while the mainstream conservative community openly dabbles in conspiracy theory.
Do you think that this is true everywhere or that it is largely a US-based phenomenon?
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:46 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you think that this is true everywhere or that it is largely a US-based phenomenon?
No idea. I have no idea what motivates conspiracy theories, doubly so for easily disprovable political conspiracy theories.

Part of me thinks that for all these birthers, many of them would actually admit they don't believe if interrogated enough. I think it's just wishful thinking or flights of fancy or something. Maybe that's just optimism on my part. I can't understand it.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:47 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Which CTs "are popular among lefty types"?
9-11 CT's are mostly left-wing.

Most JFK Assassination CT's are left-wing since Oswald was a Communist, although it dovetails into right-wing "Deep State is in control and out to get us" silliness.

Anti-Vaccers are evenly split between right and left-wing lunatics. Not a lot of MAGA caps in Marin County, CA., or Austin, TX.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:49 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Part of me thinks that for all these birthers, many of them would actually admit they don't believe if interrogated enough.
Oh I think a LOT of people of various ideological inclinations, religious, political or otherwise, would admit to this. I have no idea what percentage we'd find, but I suspect it would be quite high. I think a lot of these things stem from people defining themselves as X, or as part of group X.
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:03 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you think that this is true everywhere or that it is largely a US-based phenomenon?
9-11 CT's started almost immediately across the world colored by whatever political view was held by the CTists, and their relative bogey men. I stopped by the local Metaphysical bookstore on 9/13/2001 (hardly a bastion of right-wing thought), and the owner told me he'd been getting faxes from people telling him the buildings had been rigged with explosives. One of the people faxing him was a big-name Chem-Trails guy in Sacramento, CA.
It's been a while, but I believe the first 9-11 CT book was written by a Frenchman (spoiler: the Jews did it).

US-Based CTists are an interesting lot. Many of the old Right-Wingers were once young leftists, and many of their CT's have roots in the late 1960's where Nixon, Hoover, the FBI, and CIA were behind everything. Their distrust of the US Government, fueled by their drug habits, grew to unreasonable heights, and those beliefs have been passed along to their kids, who are now adults. I was a JFK CTist because of my dad, and that CT is a Gateway-CT into a sea of conspiracies which all make sense if you buy into the lie that JFK was killed by someone other than Lee Harvey Oswald. Had I not gone to Dallas in 1996 I would still be a CTist - a hardcore CTist.

I am still wired that way, but now I've learned to take two steps back, and do research which entails looking at the sources of a claim, and the work-ability of the claim.

The US suffers from the cancer of Anti-Intellectualism where mob rule decides what is right or wrong, and not the facts.
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:05 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I stopped by the local Metaphysical bookstore on 9/13/2001
You Americans and your weird date formats!

Quote:
The US suffers from the cancer of Anti-Intellectualism where mob rule decides what is right or wrong, and not the facts.
Ain't that the truth.
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:08 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nope. No points there. Perhaps you should've read my response to Ginger's question first.



Yes, I'm well known as an alt-right ideologue, here.
What ever happened to Anita? Is she still making videos?
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:12 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You Americans and your weird date formats!



Ain't that the truth.
OK 01/9/13, is that better for you? Or is 2001/9/13 more correct? The damn turn of the century got the best of me.
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:19 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
What ever happened to Anita? Is she still making videos?
I have no idea, nor do I care much. The woman's a loon.

Originally Posted by bknight View Post
OK 01/9/13, is that better for you? Or is 2001/9/13 more correct? The damn turn of the century got the best of me.
2011-09-13 reads better. Either way, something that makes it easy to read and sort.
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From the intro and first profile:

The trend began on obscure online forums such as the alt-right playground 4chan.

[...]

Now the conspiracy theorist-in-chief sits in the White House.

[...]

Fontaine is a vulnerable leftwing individual who would not harm a flea, which apparently makes him perfect fodder for the sadistic mockery of 4chan, the anonymous message board that hosts alt-right activists and other extremists.

The article is explicitly framed as left/right.

That's an accurate description of 4 chan, who harassed the guy in the first profile. And an accurate description of the victim, I presume. And, sadly, that's also an accurate description of the president, but I guess you could argue that the quote you included is indeed "framing." I still think that it's a stretch.



If they put the harassed-by-anti-vax doctor first, would you have the same criticism? Might you have finished the article before criticizing it?
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:24 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
...US-Based CTists are an interesting lot. Many of the old Right-Wingers were once young leftists, and many of their CT's have roots in the late 1960's where Nixon, Hoover, the FBI, and CIA were behind everything. Their distrust of the US Government, fueled by their drug habits, grew to unreasonable heights...
And then they move to Alaska!
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:31 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I have no idea, nor do I care much. The woman's a loon.



2011-09-13 reads better. Either way, something that makes it easy to read and sort.
Neither do I, she's not even on my radar.*


*Somebody chided me for that attitude back in the day "What do you mean? She's going to take over the Earth! etc." and I thought it was you. But now I see that I was wrong. Sorry Bro, I let you down.
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:48 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
That's an accurate description of 4 chan, who harassed the guy in the first profile. And an accurate description of the victim, I presume. And, sadly, that's also an accurate description of the president, but I guess you could argue that the quote you included is indeed "framing." I still think that it's a stretch.
An accurate framing is still a framing. But we're not even to the point of debating the accuracy. There's still people who dispute that the framing is there.

Quote:
If they put the harassed-by-anti-vax doctor first, would you have the same criticism? Might you have finished the article before criticizing it?
I might. I'd probably still have the same criticism, though.

But look here: The case studies were ordered the way they were. The intro and the first set the tone.
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:52 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
Ah I get it. Reprehensible behaviour is OK if you have political sympathies with the perpetrators. It's OK to be a bit racist - making jokes about minorities is fine as long as no-one's burning crosses, is that it?

Ask Bill Maher. Racism on the left is apparently acceptable because "they don't really mean it."
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:54 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
9-11 CT's are mostly left-wing.

Most JFK Assassination CT's are left-wing since Oswald was a Communist, although it dovetails into right-wing "Deep State is in control and out to get us" silliness.

Anti-Vaccers are evenly split between right and left-wing lunatics. Not a lot of MAGA caps in Marin County, CA., or Austin, TX.

Ah, those were the days, when Alex Jones was a proud left-winger speaking Truth to Power and standing up to the evil, manipulative BushHitler who was behind 9/11.
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Old 4th February 2019, 02:06 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OMG! The article is bad enough but the dismissal by two of our resident alt-whiters is appalling.


If you think there are any Alex Jones equivalents ruining the lives of some innocent white supremacists or Trump supporters or Republicans, then post them instead of pretending this is faux outrage by the left.
Or parents of dead children killed in a school shooting that the the pile of stinking excrement who runs Infowars thinks was a hoax.

There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind, that most conspiracy theorists are alt-right wingers or extreme left wingers. Those who say that Sandy Hook was a hoax most certainly are right wing.
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Old 4th February 2019, 02:26 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind, that most conspiracy theorists are alt-right wingers or extreme left wingers. Those who say that Sandy Hook was a hoax most certainly are right wing.

"Conspiracy Theories" are by CIA definition theories differing from the explanation delivered by official sources and associated Wurlitzer (CIA-controlled) media. So only people who aren't buying into that consensus "reality" will dare to engage in them. Which makes them "extreme" in the minds of the propaganda victims.

The leading Sandy Hook truther Jim "Uncle" Fetzer strikes me as a very "leftist" professor with 1968 hippie convictions.
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Old 4th February 2019, 02:55 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From the intro and first profile:

The trend began on obscure online forums such as the alt-right playground 4chan.

[...]

Now the conspiracy theorist-in-chief sits in the White House.

[...]

Fontaine is a vulnerable leftwing individual who would not harm a flea, which apparently makes him perfect fodder for the sadistic mockery of 4chan, the anonymous message board that hosts alt-right activists and other extremists.

The article is explicitly framed as left/right.
Yet you can't show the left-right aspects of this case are not valid. Surely you aren't denying Trump is a CTer. And 4Chan and Jones are clearly part of the right wing echo chamber.

Should they have left those aspects out of the article? And the false flag crap, attacking parents of Sandy Hook? It is what it is.

The entire article is not all about right wing CTs but face it, they have been aggressive with their CTs for decades.
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Old 4th February 2019, 02:56 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I'd say the prediction that the victims would be more on the left and the conspiracy mongers on the right was correct. Not because of bias from the publisher but because, while false accusations and conspiracies exist along the political spectrum, the business of sizeable outlets and communities unapologetically pushing conspiracy theory is just so much bigger on the right.

There is no leftwing "infowars" that is comparable in scale, unfounded craziness and impact.
Some people on the forum keep denying that problem.
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Old 4th February 2019, 02:59 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's true that the far left can't organise, but why use 'sizeable outlets' as a criterion?
Because they aren't organized to create CTs?


Originally Posted by baron View Post
Is somebody whose life is destroyed by a Twitter mob of 10,000 leftists more privileged than the person whose life is destroyed by a mob of 10,000 rightists purely on the basis the latter are more coherently structured?
10,000? I think you have a mistaken idea of how big the core of these CT pushers is.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:01 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Both need not be true. Rightist villains, leftist victims, or both.



Not lack of balance so much as lack of reading, My second post? You know, the one where I give you a name? Nah.
You posted a name of someone who was harassed for something they did/said. That is not the same as people harassed because Jones or others made up a fake story about them.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:02 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not a question of the actual politics of the individuals in the article. It's a question of how the article itself is framed. The introduction frames it explicitly as right/left, and this explicit framing continues into the first case study.
It was a valid issue. You want to pretend the politics were gratuitous.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:04 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nope. No points there. Perhaps you should've read my response to Ginger's question first.



Yes, I'm well known as an alt-right ideologue, here.
For the record, I consider you right wing but not alt-right.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:05 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Is that not obvious? The conspiracy theory is that anybody who makes a joke about minorities or the wonderful 'other' is a bigoted racist who has no rights and who should be hounded mercilessly at every opportunity.
Oh lordy, you don't know what a CT is. That explains a bit.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:10 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You posted a name of someone who was harassed for something they did/said.
What, and Brianna Wu didn't do or say anything? She was minding her own business when she was randomly selected for harassment by the Giant Rightist Conspiracy Theory Machine?

How about the Catholic kids who were targeted by the entire leftist mainstream media, with outright lies broadcast about them internationally in an effort to demonise them and wreck their lives?

You use some very selective definitions when it suits.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:12 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
For the record, I consider you right wing but not alt-right.
Do you make up this crap as you go along? What random term would you like to redefine next?
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:12 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It was a valid issue. You want to pretend the politics were gratuitous.
What politics?
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:14 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
9-11 CT's are mostly left-wing.
You would have to consider Alex Jones left wing to believe that.

These guys have one thing in common, they are suspicious of the government. Now that there is a right wing CTer in the White House I imagine they are having a bit of cognitive dissonance.


Quote:
Most JFK Assassination CT's are left-wing since Oswald was a Communist, although it dovetails into right-wing "Deep State is in control and out to get us" silliness.
This is just crap. No one cares Oswald was a commie, the assassination CTs are all about different groups/people that killed JFK. Pretty sure they believe Oswald was a pawn.


Quote:
Anti-Vaccers are evenly split between right and left-wing lunatics. Not a lot of MAGA caps in Marin County, CA., or Austin, TX.
Once again, the issue is the government telling people what to do, the nanny state and all that. Big Pharma in bed with the government.

I suspect you don't know a lot of anti-vaxxers.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:17 PM   #70
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I found the article illuminating. It humanized the real cost of CT-ist echo chambers on people's lives.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:17 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
9-11 CT's started almost immediately across the world colored by whatever political view was held by the CTists, and their relative bogey men. I stopped by the local Metaphysical bookstore on 9/13/2001 (hardly a bastion of right-wing thought), and the owner told me he'd been getting faxes from people telling him the buildings had been rigged with explosives. One of the people faxing him was a big-name Chem-Trails guy in Sacramento, CA.
It's been a while, but I believe the first 9-11 CT book was written by a Frenchman (spoiler: the Jews did it).....
The video Loose Change pretty much single handedly started the 9/11 CT.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:21 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Or parents of dead children killed in a school shooting that the the pile of stinking excrement who runs Infowars thinks was a hoax.

There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind, that most conspiracy theorists are alt-right wingers or extreme left wingers. Those who say that Sandy Hook was a hoax most certainly are right wing.
I am reminded of the Trilateral Commission and One World Government CTs from Jimmy Carter's era. Stuff's been around forever.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:25 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
What, and Brianna Wu didn't do or say anything? She was minding her own business when she was randomly selected for harassment by the Giant Rightist Conspiracy Theory Machine?

How about the Catholic kids who were targeted by the entire leftist mainstream media, with outright lies broadcast about them internationally in an effort to demonise them and wreck their lives?

You use some very selective definitions when it suits.
Seems to be a consensus in the thread that Gamergate doesn't fit nicely into the article's premise. You can't cherry pick that and try to drag your people who were harassed for things they did into the premise a made up out of the blue CT is why they're being harassed.

Harassing people in social media is not the issue. The issue is people who are inadvertent victims of CTs
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:27 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What politics?
The politics related to the CTs. For example, the child porn ring in the pizza parlor was a CT directly related to a false attack on Hilary Clinton.

You can't divorce the politics when it is directly involved.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:28 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I found the article illuminating. It humanized the real cost of CT-ist echo chambers on people's lives.
This ^
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:29 PM   #76
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The politics related to the CTs. For example, the child porn ring in the pizza parlor was a CT directly related to a false attack on Hilary Clinton.

You can't divorce the politics when it is directly involved.
Does this mean you're not actually disputing the claim that the article has a political framing?
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:30 PM   #77
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does this mean you're not actually disputing the claim that the article has a political framing?
Way to distort what is being said.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:34 PM   #78
lionking
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I had read the first two profiles when this article came out a few weeks ago. Skimming through it again, I don't understand what is left/right about this. Declaring that this article fits one's preconceptions about left/right while simultaneously declaring proudly that one didn't actually finish the article before posting here is ... odd?
Both odd and textbook trolling.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:42 PM   #79
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Way to distort what is being said. : rolleyes :
It's still not clear to me that you actually understand what's being said.
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:49 PM   #80
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's still not clear to me that you actually understand what's being said.
You're claiming I don't understand what I said?
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