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Old 21st May 2018, 06:27 AM   #81
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Good post. You are, however, crafting an argument that draws a stark line between "nature and nurture" when you assert that "either one or the other" would be responsible for a disparity in outcome.
Isn't it more likely some combination of the two?
If it's some combination, then inequality of opportunity still exists and still needs to be addressed.

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Old 21st May 2018, 06:33 AM   #82
ahhell
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I thought only old racist grandmas said 'blacks' as a noun.
They usually say, "coloreds or blacks, whatever we're suppose call them now, I can't keep up."

I think equality of opportunity should be the goal but we clearly aren't there yet and its not exactly easy to measure, so outcomes are a decent indirect measure. Even if it is true that equality of outcome is even less possible than equality of opportunity.....without some sort of Harrison Bergeron leveling.
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Old 21st May 2018, 06:55 AM   #83
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
They usually say, "coloreds or blacks, whatever we're suppose call them now, I can't keep up."
Followed, sotto voce, by "I don't see why we can't call them ********s any more, nobody ever used to complain about it."

Dave
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Old 21st May 2018, 09:36 AM   #84
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If it's some combination, then inequality of opportunity still exists and still needs to be addressed.

Dave
I agree. However, ignoring "nature" and how little or how much of a role it plays hinders attempts at crafting fair policies- if we are using "outcome" as the measure of success or failure of such policy.
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Old 21st May 2018, 01:19 PM   #85
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If a true "equality of opportunity" were to ever occur, the insane premise of "equality of outcomes" would finally be rendered worthless by default given there would be no more true basis with which to judge them (inequal outcomes) against. That is, once EVERYBODY is given the same opportunity, the outcomes of that have to remain natural and based solely on 'however the chips may fall' to be true. Anything else and it's a different game than the one they're claiming to play.

Put another way, if you have an agenda that includes an "equality of outcomes" component, you can throw away the "equality of opportunity" aspect because the final outcomes won't be based on the the results of that "opportunity", they'll be based solely on the capricious political fantasies of certain humans who pretend they know better than everyone else.

Simply put, the whole premise "equality" can only ever mean equality of opportunity. Equality of outcomes is just an absurd political premise and is in no way realistic or actually achievable in the real world.
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Old 21st May 2018, 02:03 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
This is always asserted without evidence. I see no reason why people from diverse backgrounds would all choose to pursue the same goals at the same levels as everyone else from every other group.
Not what I meant. You need to work the data such that you are reliably isolating the things I mentioned, ie, hiring rates and demographics. If done properly, different orientations toward one choice of profession or another within any given group would not be in play.

p(hire) given (demo), all other main factors equal (education, experience, etc)
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Old 21st May 2018, 02:28 PM   #87
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In some sense "equality of opportunity" is hard to define. Someone born into a rich family may have more opportunity to succeed in life (depending on the metric of success, of course) than someone born into poverty. Even if the world treats those two individuals the same, they are nonetheless unequally equipped due to those differing circumstances, so do they have equality of opportunity?

Because in that particular case, even if all else is equal, I'd expect unequal outcomes; at least statistically speaking.
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Old 21st May 2018, 02:32 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
In some sense "equality of opportunity" is hard to define. Someone born into a rich family may have more opportunity to succeed in life (depending on the metric of success, of course) than someone born into poverty. Even if the world treats those two individuals the same, they are nonetheless unequally equipped due to those differing circumstances, so do they have equality of opportunity?
I'd say not by a long shot! Networking and know-how are the biggest advantages in my opinion, and these are both very, very unequal in modern American society.
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Old 21st May 2018, 02:37 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Followed, sotto voce, by "I don't see why we can't call them ********s any more, nobody ever used to complain about it."

Dave
As I pointed out earlier, the racist grandmas at the New York Times use the term blacks to refer to black people.
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