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Tags CFC 11 , ozone layer

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Old 18th May 2018, 12:46 AM   #1
dann
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New Ozone Emissions

What (who) might cause something like this and why?


Quote:
a 25% rise in global emissions.
(…)
“If the increased emissions were to go away [soon], its influence on the recovery date for the ozone layer would be minor,” he said. “If it doesn’t go away, there could be a 10-year delay, and if it continued to increase, the delay would be even longer.”
Mysterious rise in banned ozone-destroying chemical shocks scientists (The Guardian, May 16, 2018)

Also in Washington Post, May 17: Someone, somewhere, is making a banned chemical that destroys the ozone layer, scientists suspect

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Old 18th May 2018, 06:38 AM   #2
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The title is nonsense. It should have been: New Emissions of Ozone-Destroying Chemical CFC 11.
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Old 18th May 2018, 07:05 AM   #3
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Hmm, seems to me that most releases would be from old production- foams from building being destroyed, or refrigerant releases form old equipment. But used as a propellant in aerosol cans ? New production AND new release? Have the Chinese gotten hooked on Cheese Wiz?
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Old 18th May 2018, 07:50 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Hmm, seems to me that most releases would be from old production- foams from building being destroyed, or refrigerant releases form old equipment. But used as a propellant in aerosol cans ? New production AND new release? Have the Chinese gotten hooked on Cheese Wiz?
Likely new production, possibly in China.
http://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0106-2

Quote:
The increase in emission of CFC-11 appears unrelated to past production; this suggests unreported new production
Quote:
Although our data and analyses do not allow for a robust identification of the origin of the increase in CFC-11 emissions, we explore China’s potential contribution because it is also the largest producer and user of HCFCs in eastern Asia (see ref. 4 and http://ozone.unep.org/en/data-reporting/data-centre).
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Old 18th May 2018, 08:10 AM   #5
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What if there is an enzyme or catalyst that breaks 1 CFC22 into 2 CFC11s? Perhaps some metal plated to the insides of the cheese wiz cans? Or an amine from fish sauce, working in the digestive tract after eating cheese wiz propellant with fish sauce, on a rice bowl? [/Fun with a little knowledge from high school chemistry class]

eta: I bet cheeses wiz sales in China have grown exponentially during the last decade. Any sales volume greater than zero would prove it.
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Old 18th May 2018, 11:43 AM   #6
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How about melting scrap that contains pots and pans with Teflon coatings? The scientist might have missed that, it's not a "by-product of manufacturing", it's a by-product of recycling.
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Old 18th May 2018, 11:06 PM   #7
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I know too little about this, but is there so much of that stuff (Teflon coatings) so that it could account for the quantity of these new emissions?
So far, there haven't been any useful comments to the Nature article that lomiller linked to.
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Old 19th May 2018, 09:24 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
What if there is an enzyme or catalyst that breaks 1 CFC22 into 2 CFC11s? Perhaps some metal plated to the insides of the cheese wiz cans? Or an amine from fish sauce, working in the digestive tract after eating cheese wiz propellant with fish sauce, on a rice bowl? [/Fun with a little knowledge from high school chemistry class]

eta: I bet cheeses wiz sales in China have grown exponentially during the last decade. Any sales volume greater than zero would prove it.
The Chinese are gettin' crazy with the Cheez Whiz!
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Old 19th May 2018, 09:32 AM   #9
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Maybe CFC dumped that is now leaking out of storage containers. I am assuming that by now the alternatives are cheaper so no point to try to cheat to produce CFC.
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Old 19th May 2018, 02:04 PM   #10
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Banned refrigerants
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Old 19th May 2018, 02:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Zambo View Post
Maybe CFC dumped that is now leaking out of storage containers. I am assuming that by now the alternatives are cheaper so no point to try to cheat to produce CFC.
Nobody stored it, leastwise not here in California. Back in the 80s we had to by a recyking system that pumped it out of air conditioners, then we re-used it. Today, if you install a house air, it has to be leak tested by an inspector. And you can't even sell the scrap component unless you have papers that say it was evacuated by a certy tech.
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Old 19th May 2018, 02:48 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Zambo View Post
Maybe CFC dumped that is now leaking out of storage containers. I am assuming that by now the alternatives are cheaper so no point to try to cheat to produce CFC.
Nope, the alternatives are still more costly, at least in America where Dupont has patent protection. Funny how whenever that patent runs out, we need to upgrade to a new chemical- for the sake of the environment, yah sure. New one is also a Dupont patent.... Makes me wonder who sponsored the Ozone Hole research?
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Old 19th May 2018, 02:55 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Banned refrigerants
Nope, at least not the F-12 used in cars until whenever. Still made in India, and sold in Tijuana. I beleive it was the product at that Bopal chemical plant disaster in India.

And the total tonnage ever made will astound you, it is sooo low. F-12 was the nasty stuff, and only used in autos. Home stuff used f-34, commercial was f-128? 134?

And Mount Pinatubo put out more. naturally, than man has ever made. And it is given off by the oceans too. I just really suspect the science of Doom & Gloom, Duponts team?
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Old 19th May 2018, 03:01 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I know too little about this, but is there so much of that stuff (Teflon coatings) so that it could account for the quantity of these new emissions?
So far, there haven't been any useful comments to the Nature article that lomiller linked to.
Well, all I know is that Teflon is Tetra-fluoro-ethylene. It has the hard to get component of CFCs, Fluorine. Which is highly reactive, not hard to combine with natural chlorine. Chloro-Fluor- hydroCarbon ? So what happens when it get cooked at smelter temps with hot byproducts of the fuel they use? ?
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Old 19th May 2018, 06:03 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Nope, at least not the F-12 used in cars until whenever. Still made in India, and sold in Tijuana. I beleive it was the product at that Bopal chemical plant disaster in India.

And the total tonnage ever made will astound you, it is sooo low. F-12 was the nasty stuff, and only used in autos. Home stuff used f-34, commercial was f-128? 134?

And Mount Pinatubo put out more. naturally, than man has ever made. And it is given off by the oceans too. I just really suspect the science of Doom & Gloom, Duponts team?
F12???
R12 was used up until about 95, but wasnt restricted to cars, was used in pretty much any refridge machinery- car aircons, home aircons, fridges, freezers
R22 was also common in aircon units, also banned

r134 is now the most common in cars, fridges aircons etc (split cycle aircons use r32 for some reason)
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Old 19th May 2018, 06:23 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What (who) might cause something like this and why?
I wish I knew.

Since we're the country most affected by the ozone hole, I'd like to see it stop PDQ.

I's actually vote Vietnam as the culprit rather than China - the Viets seem to be following China's "growth at all costs" plan, just as China backs away from it.
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Old 19th May 2018, 06:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I wish I knew.

Since we're the country most affected by the ozone hole, I'd like to see it stop PDQ.

I's actually vote Vietnam as the culprit rather than China - the Viets seem to be following China's "growth at all costs" plan, just as China backs away from it.
Are you sure about that? Corruption is a problem and no doubt there are governance failings at state owned industries. And of course some local banks have their scandals. But "growth at all costs"? In Vietnam they have strong labour laws (but enforcement should be strengthened) as with many countries coal power plants are being constructed but they have operational FGD units. Their import/export and foreign company regulations are comparable with other countries regionally.
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Old 21st May 2018, 02:26 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Zambo View Post
Are you sure about that?
Not at all - I was just having my $0-02 worth because I can't see any way it'll be Chinese. Thailand & Malaysia don't seem likely; Taiwan & Japan are extremely unlikely, and Vietnam is by miles the biggest economy of other suspects in that region. Philippines is possible - nothing would bother Duterte Harry if he made a dollar out of it, but I think Jokowi's government wouldn't approve, so I'd strike Indonesia.

I just hope they find it and shut it down.
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Old 21st May 2018, 07:36 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
The Chinese are gettin' crazy with the Cheez Whiz!
Loosers
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Old 21st May 2018, 07:41 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Zambo View Post
Maybe CFC dumped that is now leaking out of storage containers. I am assuming that by now the alternatives are cheaper so no point to try to cheat to produce CFC.
They seem to think they have a pretty good handle on potential sources of CFC11 that are still in "in the wild" from older production and at what rate they would find their way into the atmosphere. These projections were on target then suddenly started falling behind around 2010.
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Old 31st May 2018, 11:45 PM   #21
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A new comment to the Nature article argues that
Quote:
the explanation of aging equipment disposal is unlikely to have been significant for CFC-11 though a potential factor to varying extents for some other refrigerants.
An unexpected and persistent increase in global emissions of ozone-depleting CFC-11 (Nature, May 16, 2018)
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Old 1st June 2018, 06:01 AM   #22
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I wonder if it is the "trike" we used to use as a solvent ? It sure was cold on our hands. It came in tin cans, by quart or gallon, like paint thinner. Maybe the Chinese are using it in quick drying paint or elsewhere as a solvent?

Otherwise, it has a higher boiling point than other Freons, so the systems are weaker and are cheaper to build. Sound Chinese?
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