Merged: Money/inequalities - Part 3 / Poll - willing to work for free?

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Jesus told you that:

Jesus did not tell anyone anything at all, since there was no jesus in the first place.

Why you think anyone should believe the claims made by an anonymous author about the comedic stylings of an imaginary figure is something you refuse to explain.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Jesus told you that:

Matthew 20:25-27

New International Version

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—

It's unlikely that even if Jesus said those words, that Matthew heard them since he didn't write it down until years laters AND it's been translated.

Also, why should we believe the one spreading these words and not following them? That, again, is you. You don't believe them, because you don't follow them, but expect others to?

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Meaningless gibberish.

Why should I pay attention to Jesus?.

Because Gaetan has fully admitted that he is just trying to witness, not actually make an economic argument but the Mods won't let him do that so he has to pretend he actually cares about the economics but sometimes his real motive slips out.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because he has the words of justice, don't you want to survive?

Putting aside the problem of why anyone should accept the authority of those words, what use are they when people can't even agree what they mean?

You have expressed unique interpretations in this thread of what supposed words of Jesus mean, claiming they mean things that absolutely nobody else agrees they do. Even the people who believe the words are magically true don't agree with you.

And if by "survive" you mean life after death then no, I don't believe in such fairy tales.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Jesus told you that:

Matthew 20:25-27

New International Version

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—

The part you apparently intentionally left out...

" 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

This is problematic for you because if everyone is in service to everyone else Then everyone becomes the one(s) being served. Thus it would be so with them, that like the "the Gentiles" or "their high officials" and unlike Jesus, they would all be the ones being served.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Jesus told you that:

Matthew 20:25-27

New International Version

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—

Irrelevant. Jesus condones slavery. Jesus also condones or believes other monstrous things. People are crippled because they are sinners (John5:14) .

Jesus berates the jews for not killing their disobedient children (Mark 7:9-10)

Jesus goes ape**** at the money lenders in the temple and takes a bull whip to them without attempting to get rid of them in other ways (john 2:15).

Most people are evil and will be burned for eternity (Matthew 7:13-14)

There are literally dozens more possible examples of hideous injustice supposedly said or supported by Jesus, so answer my question instead of running away from it like a coward. Why should I take this bloodthirsty psychopath as a moral teacher?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Irrelevant. Jesus condones slavery. Jesus also condones or believes other monstrous things. People are crippled because they are sinners (John5:14) .

Jesus said they are not necessarily crippled because they are sinner

Quote:

Jesus berates the jews for not killing their disobedient children (Mark 7:9-10)

This is not Jesus who says that but the jewish costom at that time

Quote:

Jesus goes ape**** at the money lenders in the temple and takes a bull whip to them without attempting to get rid of them in other ways (john 2:15).

He got mad because they brought animals for sacrifice for God

Quote:

Most people are evil and will be burned for eternity (Matthew 7:13-14)

Off course if you use money and others evil tools you'll not go to haven.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Off course if you use money and others evil tools you'll not go to haven.

Why don't YOU want to go to haven?

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

It is sometimes hard to let go of your customs or habits, but it is sometimes necessary

In this case, money works pretty well.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because he has the words of justice

I have some people claiming that it's Buddha or some other prophet. Why should I believe you? And why should truth 2000 years ago still apply to vastly different people and societies today?

Quote:

don't you want to survive?

I'm already surviving. Don't need imaginary friends for that.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Jesus said they are not necessarily crippled because they are sinner

Wrong.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not Jesus who says that but the jewish costom at that time

Wrong.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

He got mad because they brought animals for sacrifice for God

Wrong.

Perhaps if you actually read the stupid book it might help you understand why you are wrong.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Off course if you use money and others evil tools you'll not go to haven.

Then YOU are not going to heaven. You use money.

Furthermore, you use the internet. What is the biggest source of internet traffic? Porn. By using the internet, you are supporting porn. I am certain that your imaginary jebus will be delighted that you support porn.

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by Leftus

Why don't YOU want to go to haven?

New Haven is a lot closer to here, and (as the name implies) is newer, but I still don't want to go there.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Leftus

Why don't YOU want to go to haven?

He was trying to get there, but he got, as he so succinctly puts it, "off course."

I hope no aspirants end up in New Haven. I was born there, and cannot say much good of it, except that in recent years it has probably ceased to be the absolute butthole of creation. It's working its way up toward armpit level.

[Leftus]

Originally Posted by bruto

He was trying to get there, but he got, as he so succinctly puts it, "off course."

The point is, if he knows the way, why is he actively avoiding it? I'm actively not killing anyone, except disobedient children, or suffering witches to live, no longer lusting after my neighbors ass, wearing mixed fabrics, or boiling a lamb in it's Mothers milk. It's been hard, but totally worth it. But Gaetan is so certain of this hidden rule that he refuses to follow it.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Jesus goes ape**** at the money lenders in the temple and takes a bull whip to them without attempting to get rid of them in other ways (john 2:15).

Money changers. Not lenders. They changed your unclean everyday money for coins of acceptable purity for you to buy an animal to give for sacrifice in the temple, without the risk of your tainted money ruining its purity.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

He got mad because they brought animals for sacrifice for God

No. You're just writing your own bible now. The money changers did not bring animals. That was not their job. A clue is in their name.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Money changers. Not lenders. They changed your unclean everyday money for coins of acceptable purity for you to buy an animal to give for sacrifice in the temple, without the risk of your tainted money ruining its purity.

No. You're just writing your own bible now. The money changers did not bring animals. That was not their job. A clue is in their name.

Correction noted, thank you.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Jesus said they are not necessarily crippled because they are sinner

Yes, he did.

Quote:

"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

You were crippled, so stop sinning or you may get crippled even worse next time. That is the exact meaning of that passage Gaetan.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not Jesus who says that but the jewish costom at that time

It was part of the Old Testament, yes, but what was the passage I quoted again?

Quote:

And [Jesus] said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.

You are rejecting God's commandment to kill those who do not honour your father and mother, and this is bad. You should be killing these children.

Again Gaetan, you cannot get away from the clear meaning of this passage. Jesus commands the Jews to kill their children if they disobey them because God told them to.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

He got mad because they brought animals for sacrifice for God

Absolutely false. Have you even read the bible?

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Off course if you use money and others evil tools you'll not go to haven.

Heaven doesn't exist.

Here's some more.

Jesus has no problem with wiping out everyone in a global flood. (Matt 24:37-39)

Jesus talks in parables to confuse people so they go to hell (Mark 4:11-12)

If you believe in Jesus, even if you're a mass murdering psychopath you go to heaven, but if you don't believe but are a paragon of virtue, you go to hell and are burned for eternity John 3:18

So please explain Gaetan why anyone should listen to this Jesus character for their morals? He preaches a gospel which is hideously immoral and the few things he says that are good are not novel to him.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

He got mad because they brought animals for sacrifice for God

It states in Leviticus (1-27) that animal sacrifice is exactly what God wants.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

It states in Leviticus (1-27) that animal sacrifice is exactly what God wants.

Unsurprisingly, I think Gaetan got it wrong. Jesus, according to the stories, did famously rout the money changers from the temple, not because of the animal sacrifice, but because they were using the temple as a place of commerce, and because they were according to many, cheating the people and taking advantage of the immediacy of their need, either for sacrifical animals or for the service of currency conversion to pay temple taxes. The temples were also, at that time, used by wealthy lenders to loan money to poor people to pay their rents, thus likely adding to the debt of the poor to the rich.

I don't think there's any record of Jesus being against animal sacrifices, which were routine, nor for that matter of the purchase of sacrificial animals in general. It was the use of the temple for commerce, and the fact that the traders were exploiting the poor, that was offensive.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Yes, he did.


You were crippled, so stop sinning or you may get crippled even worse next time. That is the exact meaning of that passage Gaetan.

John 9 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Quote:

It was part of the Old Testament, yes, but what was the passage I quoted again?



You are rejecting God's commandment to kill those who do not honour your father and mother, and this is bad. You should be killing these children.

Again Gaetan, you cannot get away from the clear meaning of this passage. Jesus commands the Jews to kill their children if they disobey them because God told them to.

Marc 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

This is not Jésus who said that but Moses as an exemple to show they are hypocrites

[bruto]

Yes, according to the story, it seems Jesus upheld the idea of the Mosaic law against the current custom, which effectively overrode the commandment by declaring that certain religious functions took precedence. There's no disputing that Jesus was opposed to the corruption and pettifoggery of the Pharisees.

I don't see what that has to do with the issue of money, though, and it also does not make you right about the reasons for the purification of the temple.

As for the blind man, yes, it's said that he was blind not because of sin, but essentially, because God is a nasty piece of work, who would blind a person just for show. It's not a very good argument for your contention that you must do one thing or another in order to gain divine favor. It seems more in keeping with Ecclesiastes, who points out that the race is not to the swift.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by bruto

Yes, according to the story, it seems Jesus upheld the idea of the Mosaic law against the current custom, which effectively overrode the commandment by declaring that certain religious functions took precedence. There's no disputing that Jesus was opposed to the corruption and pettifoggery of the Pharisees.

I don't see what that has to do with the issue of money, though, and it also does not make you right about the reasons for the purification of the temple.

As for the blind man, yes, it's said that he was blind not because of sin, but essentially, because God is a nasty piece of work, who would blind a person just for show. It's not a very good argument for your contention that you must do one thing or another in order to gain divine favor. It seems more in keeping with Ecclesiastes, who points out that the race is not to the swift.

Jesus said that a person who likes money hate God

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

It states in Leviticus (1-27) that animal sacrifice is exactly what God wants.

You misunderstand the real God with Satan who likes sacrifices.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You misunderstand the real God with Satan who likes sacrifices.

So it wasn't God who, after testing Abraham's faith, put the ram in the thicket? All those sacrifices the Jews made, and that were still going on in the temple, were to Satan? Jesus certainly did not say that.

I think you're a little mixed up there.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Jesus said that a person who likes money hate God

Worships money, yes. Loves money, maybe. Uses money, not.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Jesus said that a person who likes money hate God

Yet here you are, using money aplenty. Under your rules, you are going to hell.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

John 9 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Not the same person. Incidentally, I find it interesting you're comparing being blind with being crippled.


Did Jesus say that (some) people who were crippled were crippled because they sinned, yes or no? (It's yes, by the way)

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Marc 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

My point exactly. He was telling them off for not killing their children for being rebellious like god and Moses told them to. Do you think that rebellious children should be killed Gaetan? Jesus does.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not Jésus who said that but Moses as an exemple to show they are hypocrites

Wrong. Jesus was telling them that the law of their bloodthirsty, evil god told them they should kill their children if they disobeyed and that they were not following gods law by allowing them to live.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You misunderstand the real God with Satan who likes sacrifices.

Then what was Jesus meant to be if not a blood sacrifice? A HUMAN blood sacrifice no less. Even in the OT they didn't do that.

[MarkCorrigan]

Again Gaetan, why should we care what Jesus said? You do realise that most people here don't think that god exists right? We couldn't care less about how to get into heaven because we think it's make believe. Some of us don't even think Jesus was a real person, and even if he was a lot of the stories attributed to him are patent falsehoods.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Again Gaetan, why should we care what Jesus said? You do realise that most people here don't think that god exists right? We couldn't care less about how to get into heaven because we think it's make believe. Some of us don't even think Jesus was a real person, and even if he was a lot of the stories attributed to him are patent falsehoods.

There is some confusion here and i want to make it clear. I don't say that what come from Moses come from God but i say it comes from Satan and second what i say is what come from Jesus come from God. God exist and if he wouldn't exist spirits would simply elect one, every community has a representant this is just natural. The God we have is not the universal God, the God of the univers and life is the Pro-God. I love Jesus not because he is Jesus but because he has the words of justice.

[MarkCorrigan]

I'm not sure how I can make this any plainer.

Let me try an analogy. Have you ever seen Star Wars? I'm going to assume you have, most people have.

So, in Star Wars, the Emperor is a nasty piece of work right? But you don't believe he actually exists, do you? That's how we see god. He isn't real Gaetan, so we don't care what people who profess to talk on his behalf have to say about what he wants.

I do not care what god wants because I do not think god is real. Please explain why I should care about what god wants us to do when I think he is no more real than Emperor Palpatine.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

I'm not sure how I can make this any plainer.

Let me try an analogy. Have you ever seen Star Wars? I'm going to assume you have, most people have.

So, in Star Wars, the Emperor is a nasty piece of work right? But you don't believe he actually exists, do you? That's how we see god. He isn't real Gaetan, so we don't care what people who profess to talk on his behalf have to say about what he wants.

I do not care what god wants because I do not think god is real. Please explain why I should care about what god wants us to do when I think he is no more real than Emperor Palpatine.

In every story there is a leader of bad and a leader of good, God is the leader of what is good

[MarkCorrigan]

I would dispute that "god is the leader of what is good", but god isn't real, just like Emperor Palpatine isn't real, Harry Potter isn't real, the Magnificent Seven aren't real etc etc ad nauseum.

In order for you to show me that I should listen to Jesus, you need to show me WHY I should listen to Jesus. Why should I care what a long dead itinerent Jewish preacher possibly said thousands of years ago?