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Old 22nd February 2017, 01:12 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Oh no, no, no. The burden is on those making the claim. If you can't back up your claim, the sensible will consider it null and void. It couldn't be any other way, otherwise you would have to be seeking proof that there isn't a pink unicorn farting star-dust as it orbits the earth.
Sorry. You've lost me. Kindly specify the claim or claims I have made in the course of my 5 comments thus far that I'm required to back up?
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Old 22nd February 2017, 01:28 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Sorry. You've lost me. Kindly specify the claim or claims I have made in the course of my 5 comments thus far that I'm required to back up?
I thought it fairly straight forward. You said:

Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
.......If you have reason to doubt what I ... say, then the onus is surely on you..........
No, the onus is not on the doubter. It is on you.
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Old 22nd February 2017, 01:45 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I thought it fairly straight forward. You said:



No, the onus is not on the doubter. It is on you.
You have to look at the context in which my comment was made. It was NOT about expecting folk here to take everything I say on trust. It was about another commentator signalling he was not prepared to take what I say seriously unless I could show specialist qualifications in the subjects he listed.

What I say is this: if he or anyone else doubts what I say, then kindly challenge me to back up my words with additional evidence (which I may or may not have - if the latter I will say so). Don't, repeat DON'T ask me to volunteer the nature of my specialist qualifications. I would never ask that of others here, and wish to be given the same right to privacy re my education and career background.
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Old 22nd February 2017, 01:49 PM   #44
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Fair enough.
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Old 22nd February 2017, 01:56 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Fair enough.
Thanks MikeG. Non-combative reply greatly appreciated.
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Old 22nd February 2017, 02:48 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post


One can only speculate as to who created the Shroud, how they made it, precisely when they made it, why they made it. What's more the image characteristics are totally unique, often described as 'enigmatic'. Scores, maybe hundreds of experts, armed with sophisticated instrumentation, have failed to produce a chemical formula for the Shroud body image, or the precise chemical composition of that unblood-like "blood" that stays permanently red and lacks a typical porphyrin spectrum (Adler and Heller).

So why bother asking for a commentator's qualifications in this or that? How can you be so certain they would have any bearing on something that is a total mystery?

Why not stick to discussing the issues? If you have reason to doubt what I or others say, then the onus is surely on you to consult specialists and/or experts
of your choosing whom you consider might have relevant expertise.
Oh, sweetie--the "issues" have been done to death on the threads into which you choose not to dip. Done to death, I might add, by chemistry teachers, artists, and pigment-makers, as well as interested people with (for instance) normal eyesight and experience with the actual shapes and possible postures of human bodies.

You have made an ungrammatical and extraordinary claim; a claim for which you have offered no support. The onus probandi is, in fact, yours; particularly when you eschew reading what has, in fact, already been said.

(To say nothing of the fact that the cartoon on the CIQ cannot be older than the linen of which the fabric was wrought...)
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Old 22nd February 2017, 02:51 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Sorry. You've lost me. Kindly specify the claim or claims I have made in the course of my 5 comments thus far that I'm required to back up?
...something ungrammatical about the characteristics of the CIQ; and an implication that the cartoon is older than the linen upon which it is wrought...

ETA: that implication was another's, sorry.
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Last edited by Slowvehicle; 22nd February 2017 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2017, 03:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
...something ungrammatical about the characteristics of the CIQ; and an implication that the cartoon is older than the linen upon which it is wrought...

ETA: that implication was another's, sorry.
I look forward to this thread returning to the substantive issue raised in the title, namely whether the Shroud of Turin predated its radiocarbon date (1260-1390) by centuries, some 13 according to the pro-authenticity proponents.

I believe it was designed and fabricated by the half dozen or so canons of the private chapel founded by Geoffroy de Charny, Lord of Lirey and his wife. I believe it was a simulation of the body imprint of the crucified Jesus left by sweat and blood on 14th century herringbone weave, a proxy for Joseph of Arimathea's "fine linen". I believe the technique involved a form of powder imprinting, with some resemblance to Garlaschelli's ideas, but important differences too. I believe the image comprises melanoidins, i.e. high molecular condensation products formed by Maillard browning reactions between reducing sugars and amino groups. There are affinities too with the ideas of STURP's Raymond Rogers, but again, important differences too.
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Old 22nd February 2017, 03:52 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
I look forward to this thread returning to the substantive issue raised in the title, namely whether the Shroud of Turin predated its radiocarbon date (1260-1390) by centuries, some 13 according to the pro-authenticity proponents.

I believe it was designed and fabricated by the half dozen or so canons of the private chapel founded by Geoffroy de Charny, Lord of Lirey and his wife. I believe it was a simulation of the body imprint of the crucified Jesus left by sweat and blood on 14th century herringbone weave, a proxy for Joseph of Arimathea's "fine linen". I believe the technique involved a form of powder imprinting, with some resemblance to Garlaschelli's ideas, but important differences too. I believe the image comprises melanoidins, i.e. high molecular condensation products formed by Maillard browning reactions between reducing sugars and amino groups. There are affinities too with the ideas of STURP's Raymond Rogers, but again, important differences too.
Ah. I breathlessly await the evidence you must intend to provide; the objective, non-anecdotal, testable, practical evidence upon which your beliefs are based.
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Old 22nd February 2017, 04:11 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Ah. I breathlessly await the evidence you must intend to provide; the objective, non-anecdotal, testable, practical evidence upon which your beliefs are based.
You can find the evidence you seek on my two current websites. One is WordPress-hosted with shroudofturinwithoutallthehype in the title, with some 300 or more postings these last five years with much hands-on experimentation. My initial research was posted to my sciencebuzz site (Blogger-hosted), which still gets the occasional posting on the Shroud, but much else besides (Stonehenge, Silbury Hill, a wide range of chemical/biochemical/biomedical topics etc).

So I'm not the innocent abroad you seem to have assumed... Why make these assumptions about newcomers - or returnees- to this site? Being a newbie here does not necessarily make one a newbie on the topics addressed. (Speaking of which, I'm pleased to see the post-James Randi site labelling one as "New Blood" instead of the previous "Student"!
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Old 22nd February 2017, 05:37 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
You can find the evidence you seek on my two current websites. One is WordPress-hosted with shroudofturinwithoutallthehype in the title, with some 300 or more postings these last five years with much hands-on experimentation. My initial research was posted to my sciencebuzz site (Blogger-hosted), which still gets the occasional posting on the Shroud, but much else besides (Stonehenge, Silbury Hill, a wide range of chemical/biochemical/biomedical topics etc).

So I'm not the innocent abroad you seem to have assumed... Why make these assumptions about newcomers - or returnees- to this site? Being a newbie here does not necessarily make one a newbie on the topics addressed. (Speaking of which, I'm pleased to see the post-James Randi site labelling one as "New Blood" instead of the previous "Student"!
Ah. Clickbait.

TY

No evidence to post here, then?

Oh, well.

(BTW, "Student" will come--just wait)
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Old 22nd February 2017, 08:38 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
You have to look at the context in which my comment was made. It was NOT about expecting folk here to take everything I say on trust. It was about another commentator signalling he was not prepared to take what I say seriously unless I could show specialist qualifications in the subjects he listed.

What I say is this: if he or anyone else doubts what I say, then kindly challenge me to back up my words with additional evidence (which I may or may not have - if the latter I will say so). Don't, repeat DON'T ask me to volunteer the nature of my specialist qualifications. I would never ask that of others here, and wish to be given the same right to privacy re my education and career background.

State your position unambiguously, or risk being misunderstood.
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Old 22nd February 2017, 08:53 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
[...] I believe the image comprises melanoidins, i.e. high molecular condensation products formed by Maillard browning reactions between reducing sugars and amino groups. There are affinities too with the ideas of STURP's Raymond Rogers, but again, important differences too.
I can't wait to hear your arguments re the Maillard reactions.

Ray Rogers left this life as a discredited chemist. His Kitchen Chemistry was *****.
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Old 22nd February 2017, 11:47 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I can't wait to hear your arguments re the Maillard reactions.

Ray Rogers left this life as a discredited chemist. His Kitchen Chemistry was *****.
The current Model 10 this Shroud investigator/real time internet reporter proposed some 18 months ago is absurdly simple in principle (it's the details at the atomic and molecular level that are unknown, though that would not have bothered the medieval fabricators of the Shroud).

Briefly I propose that white wheaten breadmaking flour was the imprinting agent. But the fine powder particles had first to be attached to one (probably two) human volunteers. That required an initial swabbing of the naked volunteers with vegetable oil, a technique I had earlier discovered to work when working with metal bas relief templates.

The oiled volunteers then lie down on the ground, head to head, face up for the frontal imprinting, face down for the dorsal. The flour is then placed in a sieve, and sprinkled onto the subjects from above, probably a height of several cm or more. It is this vertical presentation of the imprinting medium, settling preferentially but not exclusively on the higher flatter relief, with maybe small amounts where that meets vertical relief at the sides, that can account for much of the image subtlety - avoiding the look of crude rubber stamp imprint.

Wet linen is then draped over the oil/flour-dusted subjects, probably the two simultaneously, and helpers proceed to press it gently so as to capture as much as possible of the higher flatter relief, avoiding the sides (thereby minimizing lateral false widening/distortion - though I suspect a little helps to avoid too narrow an imprint!).

The flour/oil- imprinted linen is then suspended in a large breadmaking oven or similar (as might exist in a country residence, many miles from the nearest town or city) and heating proceeds. There then follows the same kind of chemistry that accounts for the browning of flour dough to make loaves of bread. The browning depends on Maillard reactions between reducing sugars and amino-groups in the flour (the side chain amino-groups of lysine residues in protein are a prime candidate for those Maillard reactions, though there are others).


After 10 or 15 minutes in the oven (with the temperature up to 180 to 200 degrees C) one then has one's yellow or brown contact imprint onto virtually unchanged linen. (A little yellow discoloration of the latter is not a bad thing since it provides an instant 'aged' appearance).

The final step is to give the imprinted linen a vigorous wash in soap and water to dislodge the surface encrustation, leaving just a faint fuzzy image which has certain properties that might ring a bell. The image is a tone-reversed negative, it responds to 3D-rendering software, it displays a half-tone effect and discontinuities under the microscope, it is easily bleachable (ordinary domestic bleach will do - diimide has not been tested as yet).


Best I stop there and await reaction. Something less dismissive and/or combative than we've seen thus far would be welcome.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:15 AM   #55
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I haven't seen any evidence of this Mallard reaction.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:18 AM   #56
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What you're describing might well be a good way of producing an image that is similar to the one that appears on the Shroud now, but my understanding is that descriptions and an illustration of how the Shroud looked when it was first exhibited suggest the image was much more obvious then. Does your technique produce an image that fades over time?

Your experiments certainly sound interesting, you've obviously put a lot of time into them.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:23 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
The current Model 10 this Shroud investigator/real time internet reporter proposed some 18 months ago is absurdly simple in principle (it's the details at the atomic and molecular level that are unknown, though that would not have bothered the medieval fabricators of the Shroud).

Briefly I propose that white wheaten breadmaking flour was the imprinting agent. But the fine powder particles had first to be attached to one (probably two) human volunteers. That required an initial swabbing of the naked volunteers with vegetable oil, a technique I had earlier discovered to work when working with metal bas relief templates.

The oiled volunteers then lie down on the ground, head to head, face up for the frontal imprinting, face down for the dorsal. The flour is then placed in a sieve, and sprinkled onto the subjects from above, probably a height of several cm or more. It is this vertical presentation of the imprinting medium, settling preferentially but not exclusively on the higher flatter relief, with maybe small amounts where that meets vertical relief at the sides, that can account for much of the image subtlety - avoiding the look of crude rubber stamp imprint.

Wet linen is then draped over the oil/flour-dusted subjects, probably the two simultaneously, and helpers proceed to press it gently so as to capture as much as possible of the higher flatter relief, avoiding the sides (thereby minimizing lateral false widening/distortion - though I suspect a little helps to avoid too narrow an imprint!).

The flour/oil- imprinted linen is then suspended in a large breadmaking oven or similar (as might exist in a country residence, many miles from the nearest town or city) and heating proceeds. There then follows the same kind of chemistry that accounts for the browning of flour dough to make loaves of bread. The browning depends on Maillard reactions between reducing sugars and amino-groups in the flour (the side chain amino-groups of lysine residues in protein are a prime candidate for those Maillard reactions, though there are others).


After 10 or 15 minutes in the oven (with the temperature up to 180 to 200 degrees C) one then has one's yellow or brown contact imprint onto virtually unchanged linen. (A little yellow discoloration of the latter is not a bad thing since it provides an instant 'aged' appearance).

The final step is to give the imprinted linen a vigorous wash in soap and water to dislodge the surface encrustation, leaving just a faint fuzzy image which has certain properties that might ring a bell. The image is a tone-reversed negative, it responds to 3D-rendering software, it displays a half-tone effect and discontinuities under the microscope, it is easily bleachable (ordinary domestic bleach will do - diimide has not been tested as yet).


Best I stop there and await reaction. Something less dismissive and/or combative than we've seen thus far would be welcome.
Well this would be extraordinarily easy to replicate. The only difficulty would be getting hold of the right grade of linen. Is there any reason why you haven't run this test?

As the chemistry of the shroud was looked at in great detail a few years back, is your hypothesis consistent with their results, chemically?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I haven't seen any evidence of this Mallard reaction.
As I say, it's just a model at this stage (though I hesitate to deploy that term 'just' given the crucial importance of models, aka hypotheses, in science generally).

You mentioned Ray Rogers earlier, best known for his post-STURP vaporigraph model that also explained the image color in terms of Maillard reactions. There are any number of pro-authenticity advocates who have embraced that model (indeed, it was the first to be laid at my door some 5 years ago when challenging authenticity). What was Rogers' evidence for Maillard chemistry? None as I recall - in fact he even acknowledged the absence of surplus nitrogen in the earlier STURP analysis of image-bearing fibres - but that did not appear to bother him unduly, nor his fan club.

The important thing is to be able to test in principle for Maillard products, including those fiendishly complex high molecular weight melanoidins, as and when a STURP Mk2 is permitted (probably not in my lifetime!). That will be no easy task, given the minute amounts of image pigment available, especially if resorting a second time to Rogers' sticky tape sampling of stripped-out individual fibres. Until then, one has to content oneself with model-building, with the proviso, as indicated, that all models should be testable in principle (and hopefully, one day, in practice).

A more immediate goal for testing the Shroud might be to detect traces of flour residues which if present make Maillard chemistry the likely chemistry in a thermal mechanism (hot oven) as per breadmaking. I've suggested in my latest posting that the reddish-brown flecks one sees all over the Shroud in Mario Latendresse's Shroud Scope pictures, especially under high magnification and added contrast, might well be gluten, the highly water-insoluble storage protein of wheat and other cereal grains. One would not expect sticky flecks of gluten to wash out completely in the final rinsing stage. Maybe a hoovering of the Shroud, with permission from its custodians, would be all that was needed to test for gluten. (The Shroud was controversially hoovered back in 2001 or thereabouts, so it's just possible that what was recovered and hopefully put under lock-and-key then (?) then could be utilized for gluten-testing).
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Old 23rd February 2017, 01:56 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
What you're describing might well be a good way of producing an image that is similar to the one that appears on the Shroud now, but my understanding is that descriptions and an illustration of how the Shroud looked when it was first exhibited suggest the image was much more obvious then. Does your technique produce an image that fades over time?

Your experiments certainly sound interesting, you've obviously put a lot of time into them.
Might I be correct in thinking you have a certain engraving in mind, one by Antonio Tempesta, 1613, which appeared in a highly controversial magazine article back in Nov 2014 (authored by a tour-guide/occasional writer of history books).

I would not assume that because that Shroud image was so prominent in that ENGRAVING it was necessarily the artist's intention (it being quite difficult to represent faint images if having to rely entirely on scored or etched lines in a metal plate).

Note the date (1613). That was decades AFTER the first (surviving) copies of the Shroud appeared, notably (a) Lier (1516) (b)Guadalupe (1568). They both show a faint fuzzy image, and while I'm no expert in art, I would have said that was the artists' intention, i.e. they are not that way on account of their age.

The dubious thesis in that magazine article began with this quotation: "My research began with this engraving, as it demonstrated that the original images of the Shroud were much more prominent than they are now. The Shroud would not have made an impact on such large crowds if they had not been".

But those outdoor viewers in that engraving must surely have known that if going to see the reputedly GENUINE (! burial shroud with a body imprint in sweat and blood of the crucified Jesus, the image would have been scarcely visible unless viewed at close quarters. But they were expecting and probably content maybe to see the Shroud - not the image in close-up detail.

Actually that article gets progressively worse with its tendentious claim to relate "history". Immediately after the words quoted above, it goes on to say:

"There are features - the Crown of Thorns, the long hair on Christ's neck, the space between the elbows and the body, the loincloth - that can no longer be seen today".

Such touching faith in what an early 17th century engraver chose to show and not to show in an engraving intended for public exhibition! Such touching faith in Time to delete some features in their entirety while preserving others!

Why was there no mention of those earlier copies? Objective history? Or putting together a narrative that generates loads of self-publicity (handy if one's also a Mediterranean tour guide with senior citizens at the Captain's table hanging on one's every word!)?

Sorry, I'm not usually this dismissive of rival ideas, but that "just a faded painting" theory is frankly unsubstantiated, even in historical terms, to say nothing of chemically illiterate, as stated earlier. Paintings do not fade to leave a negative (tone-reversed) image... Nor do they disappear when one adds chemical bleaches like hypochlorites or diimide, ones that work only on organic (carbon-based) pigments, not on the solid inorganic ones - metal oxides, sulphides etc - found on an artist's paint brush or palette.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 03:13 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well this would be extraordinarily easy to replicate. The only difficulty would be getting hold of the right grade of linen. Is there any reason why you haven't run this test?

As the chemistry of the shroud was looked at in great detail a few years back, is your hypothesis consistent with their results, chemically?
Yes, it takes only an hour or two in one's kitchen with a hot oven to show that flour-imprinting works in principle to produce an image that is uncannily Shroud-like. Even Thibault Heimburger MD, quick to find fault with Garlaschelli's powder frottage, and even more dismissive of my initial dabbling with heated metal templates, has declared flour-imprinting to be the best model he's seen so far. (He was initially dubious of the need for an oil- base before flour, but later agreed ( probably after doing his own tests) that it played an important in generating that subtle, fuzzy image).

So yes, the model has been experimentally tested, scores of times, with a range of 'templates' range from small plastic figurines, large ones (half human size), my own and wife's hands etc. Results from my face were more problematic - on account of the abrupt changes in relief, nose etc, making me inclined to agree with Luigi Garlaschelli that a bas relief was used for the face (which could explain some anomalies).


You say the chemistry of the Shroud was looked at in great detail. Only partly true actually. Certainly there was a vast number of wet microchemistry spot tests, but most were directed to detecting artists' pigments (largely negative!). But there was a serious shortcoming - namely the (understandable) decision to restrict the tests to individual fibres detached from the Shroud with sticky tape with minuscule amounts of 'unknown'. That placed huge limitations on what one could hope to learn. To give just one example: the tentative identification of the image pigment as "conjugated carbonyls" was based on scarcely any hard data - and indeed seems to have been largely armchair chemistry when you read the account in John Heller's book. (There's a tiny fly in the ointment inasmuch as the simplest conjugated carbonyl - acrolein - CH2=CH-CHO, is colorless when pure!).

I personally believe that carbonyls play no crucial role in determining the yellow or brown colour. It's usually long runs of conjugated double bonds, with or without nitrogen (NOT oxygen) that are responsible for the colour of organic chromophores, e.g. -CH=CH-CH=CH-N=CH- etc etc.

These are the kind of structures one might expect to be formed along the way in sugar-protein Maillard reactions, resulting finally in yellow or brown melanoidins (which may or may not retain nitrogen).

Are Maillard reaction products consistent with STURP's data? Answer: we don't know because Raymond Rogers, STURP's chemistry team leader, did not take an interest in Maillard products until after the project was over. I personally have spent many hours online trying to find chemical and/or other 'fingerprint' tests for melanoidins and other yellow or brown Maillard end-products, so far without success. It is an amazingly complex area of organic chemistry with no specific tests that I can find thus far. We shall persevere... Maybe pyrolysis mass spectrometry is the answer (which if the case would be ironic, given it was the technique that Rogers applied to non-image aspects of the Shroud, notably blood).
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Old 23rd February 2017, 03:21 AM   #61
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How about showing the photos of the results of your experiments?

I've no interest in the shroud whatever, but am curious about the origin of the image. Baked-on flour stains seems rather easier to imagine in the 14th century than a relatively complex camera-obscura "photograph". I'll leave it for others to pick apart your chemistry.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 03:34 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
How about showing the photos of the results of your experiments?

I've no interest in the shroud whatever, but am curious about the origin of the image. Baked-on flour stains seems rather easier to imagine in the 14th century than a relatively complex camera-obscura "photograph". I'll leave it for others to pick apart your chemistry.
I did a posting in August of last year which shows the flour-imprinting technology to good advantage (appearance before as well as after the final wash).

Put this title into your search engine to locate:

Might invisible ink technology (mere child’s play) have been superbly fine-tuned to achieve whole body imaging?

Then scroll down, past the imaging of plastic figurines, to the back of my own hand (Figs 11-13).

What do reckon? Valid model or not?

Thanks for the interest.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 04:21 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
The current Model 10 this Shroud investigator/real time internet reporter proposed some 18 months ago is absurdly simple in principle (it's the details at the atomic and molecular level that are unknown, though that would not have bothered the medieval fabricators of the Shroud).

Briefly I propose that white wheaten breadmaking flour was the imprinting agent. But the fine powder particles had first to be attached to one (probably two) human volunteers. That required an initial swabbing of the naked volunteers with vegetable oil, a technique I had earlier discovered to work when working with metal bas relief templates.

The oiled volunteers then lie down on the ground, head to head, face up for the frontal imprinting, face down for the dorsal. The flour is then placed in a sieve, and sprinkled onto the subjects from above, probably a height of several cm or more. It is this vertical presentation of the imprinting medium, settling preferentially but not exclusively on the higher flatter relief, with maybe small amounts where that meets vertical relief at the sides, that can account for much of the image subtlety - avoiding the look of crude rubber stamp imprint.

Wet linen is then draped over the oil/flour-dusted subjects, probably the two simultaneously, and helpers proceed to press it gently so as to capture as much as possible of the higher flatter relief, avoiding the sides (thereby minimizing lateral false widening/distortion - though I suspect a little helps to avoid too narrow an imprint!).

The flour/oil- imprinted linen is then suspended in a large breadmaking oven or similar (as might exist in a country residence, many miles from the nearest town or city) and heating proceeds. There then follows the same kind of chemistry that accounts for the browning of flour dough to make loaves of bread. The browning depends on Maillard reactions between reducing sugars and amino-groups in the flour (the side chain amino-groups of lysine residues in protein are a prime candidate for those Maillard reactions, though there are others).


After 10 or 15 minutes in the oven (with the temperature up to 180 to 200 degrees C) one then has one's yellow or brown contact imprint onto virtually unchanged linen. (A little yellow discoloration of the latter is not a bad thing since it provides an instant 'aged' appearance).

The final step is to give the imprinted linen a vigorous wash in soap and water to dislodge the surface encrustation, leaving just a faint fuzzy image which has certain properties that might ring a bell. The image is a tone-reversed negative, it responds to 3D-rendering software, it displays a half-tone effect and discontinuities under the microscope, it is easily bleachable (ordinary domestic bleach will do - diimide has not been tested as yet).


Best I stop there and await reaction. Something less dismissive and/or combative than we've seen thus far would be welcome.
Others will point this out, but among the multiple flaws in your "solution" are the flat aspect of the cartoon (which cannot be produced by pressing, even lightly, a flat surface against a rounded object); the anatomically inaccurate and posturally impossible nature of the cartoon; and the fact that your technique would not produce an image vivid enough to have been displayed out in the open, as the CIQ is depicted as having been. How do you account for the fact that your technique would appear to be no more than a way to imitate the current nature of the cartoon, not the cartoon-as-it-is-described 700 years ago?

All of which, of course, simply begs the question as to why this technique would have been invented and assayed only once...

(Parenthetically, has any evidence of any "large breadmaking oven or similar", large enough to bake the CIQ without folding, ever been presented?)
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Old 23rd February 2017, 04:32 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
[spoiler]<snip of ad-hoc dismissiveness for focus>

Why was there no mention of those earlier copies? Objective history? Or putting together a narrative that generates loads of self-publicity (handy if one's also a Mediterranean tour guide with senior citizens at the Captain's table hanging on one's every word!)?

Sorry, I'm not usually this dismissive of rival ideas, but that "just a faded painting" theory is frankly unsubstantiated, even in historical terms, to say nothing of chemically illiterate, as stated earlier. Paintings do not fade to leave a negative (tone-reversed) image... Nor do they disappear when one adds chemical bleaches like hypochlorites or diimide, ones that work only on organic (carbon-based) pigments, not on the solid inorganic ones - metal oxides, sulphides etc - found on an artist's paint brush or palette.
Why was there no mention of your B&D breadflour technique? Objective history? Or construction of a narrative that accounts for the one-off nature of the cartoon? (For that matter, the postulated existence of a "large breadmaking oven or similar" that could, in fact, bake such a cloth?)

Thanks for the attempts to drive traffic to your site...
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Old 23rd February 2017, 04:54 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Others will point this out, but among the multiple flaws in your "solution" are the flat aspect of the cartoon (which cannot be produced by pressing, even lightly, a flat surface against a rounded object); the anatomically inaccurate and posturally impossible nature of the cartoon; and the fact that your technique would not produce an image vivid enough to have been displayed out in the open, as the CIQ is depicted as having been. How do you account for the fact that your technique would appear to be no more than a way to imitate the current nature of the cartoon, not the cartoon-as-it-is-described 700 years ago?

All of which, of course, simply begs the question as to why this technique would have been invented and assayed only once...

(Parenthetically, has any evidence of any "large breadmaking oven or similar", large enough to bake the CIQ without folding, ever been presented?)
Flour-imprinting is NOT a solution. It's a scientific model, my Model 10 in fact, an aid to interpreting existing data and for generating predictions and possible new or modified hypotheses. Why do you insist on viewing ongoing research as an opportunity to pour scorn onto the research investigator? Do you imagine yourself to possess all the answers? (If so, kindly explain how the body image on the Shroud was generated).

My Model 10 has withstood some 18 months of experimental hands-on testing, using a wide range of templates, human and inanimate. At no stage have I ever felt the need to embark upon a Model 11.

I can, or rather could, address some or all of your other points. But I'd frankly like to observe a change in tone from your end before doing so. I'm here to discuss - not to be subject to vilification. Reminder: manners maketh man.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 04:57 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Flour-imprinting is NOT a solution. It's a scientific model, my Model 10 in fact, an aid to interpreting existing data and for generating predictions and possible new or modified hypotheses. Why do you insist on viewing ongoing research as an opportunity to pour scorn onto the research investigator? Do you imagine yourself to possess all the answers? (If so, kindly explain how the body image on the Shroud was generated).

My Model 10 has withstood some 18 months of experimental hands-on testing, using a wide range of templates, human and inanimate. At no stage have I ever felt the need to embark upon a Model 11.

I can, or rather could, address some or all of your other points. But I'd frankly like to observe a change in tone from your end before doing so. I'm here to discuss - not to be subject to vilification. Reminder: manners maketh man.
"Methinks the laddy doth protest too much..."
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Old 23rd February 2017, 05:43 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
I can, or rather could, address some or all of your other points. But I'd frankly like to observe a change in tone from your end before doing so. I'm here to discuss - not to be subject to vilification. Reminder: manners maketh man.
You are not being vilified. Your claims are being robustly examined and challenged. There is a difference.

You signed up to a Membership Agreement in order to join this forum. I draw your attention to Rule 12 of that very agreement.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 06:31 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You are not being vilified. Your claims are being robustly examined and challenged. There is a difference.

You signed up to a Membership Agreement in order to join this forum. I draw your attention to Rule 12 of that very agreement.
You could have fooled me...
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Old 23rd February 2017, 07:05 AM   #69
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PS: If one is genuinely serious about wanting to robustly examine and challenge, quote unquote, then here's a tip. Put one's points to the other party one at a time, fleshed out with a bit of additional comment so that the recipient can properly appreciate the precise nature of the objection.

Don't be tempted to blitz with an onslaught of objections, unless one wants to be seen as attempting to bulldoze into submission.

I'm more than happy to entertain objections to the flour-imprinting model, but as I say, one at a time please. If this well-meant advice is ignored, I shall deal with the first point only.

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Old 23rd February 2017, 07:45 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
You could have fooled me...
Why should I even make the attempt? It seems to me that you are taking personally attacks, critiques and objections to your ideas, not your person.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 07:52 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
PS: If one is genuinely serious about wanting to robustly examine and challenge, quote unquote, then here's a tip. Put one's points to the other party one at a time, fleshed out with a bit of additional comment so that the recipient can properly appreciate the precise nature of the objection.

Don't be tempted to blitz with an onslaught of objections, unless one wants to be seen as attempting to bulldoze into submission.

I'm more than happy to entertain objections to the flour-imprinting model, but as I say, one at a time please. If this well-meant advice is ignored, I shall deal with the first point only.
Sorry, it is not up to you to determine who may or may not ask which questions nor when they may do so. Anyone may post anywhere on any topic on a public discussion forum.

If you post anything which exhibits a cornucopia of glaring flaws, why would you be amazed at a cornucopia of objections coming right back?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 07:56 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
PS: If one is genuinely serious about wanting to robustly examine and challenge, quote unquote, then here's a tip. Put one's points to the other party one at a time, fleshed out with a bit of additional comment so that the recipient can properly appreciate the precise nature of the objection.

Don't be tempted to blitz with an onslaught of objections, unless one wants to be seen as attempting to bulldoze into submission.

I'm more than happy to entertain objections to the flour-imprinting model, but as I say, one at a time please. If this well-meant advice is ignored, I shall deal with the first point only.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 07:58 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
I'm more than happy to entertain objections to the flour-imprinting model, but as I say, one at a time please. If this well-meant advice is ignored, I shall deal with the first point only.

My biggest objection is that your draping technique would provide a distorted image of a human face. The cheekbones, particularly as they lay further back from the nose, would appear "stretched out" when the cloth is lifted from the face. This distortion is why map makers have to develop complicated formulae for expressing a 3D object on a 2D medium.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 08:03 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
My biggest objection is that your draping technique would provide a distorted image of a human face. The cheekbones, particularly as they lay further back from the nose, would appear "stretched out" when the cloth is lifted from the face. This distortion is why map makers have to develop complicated formulae for expressing a 3D object on a 2D medium.
...thus the ad hoc suggestion of a bas-relief "mask"...
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Old 23rd February 2017, 08:06 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Why should I even make the attempt? It seems to me that you are taking personally attacks, critiques and objections to your ideas, not your person.
I have already responded in some detail to particular comments made here to my experimentally-based Model 10 (flour-imprinting). I refer to the one or two that are worded in moderate and clearly-articulated language.

So try me on the issues that may concern you. But do please confine comments to the science (hypothesis formulation and testing etc). That's what I do, that's why I'm here - to discuss the science. If I continue to get the needless flak, for no apparent reason, then I shall move on. Pronto.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 08:08 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
...thus the ad hoc suggestion of a bas-relief "mask"...

That would generate the same issue, though. A bas relief mask is still a 3D object. The only difference is that it has a background, rather than being free standing.

Edti: Why go through all this silliness? Wouldn't it be simpler (if the chemistry proved accurate), to just paint the image with oil, then shake and bake?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 08:10 AM   #77
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Well OK then, as I have had a reasonable discussion with you so far. How about answering the in-principle objections raised by SlowVehicle? First and foremost, that the shape as represented on the shroud is so out of proportion that it couldn't have come from contact with a human body, whatever the process.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 08:21 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well OK then, as I have had a reasonable discussion with you so far. How about answering the in-principle objections raised by SlowVehicle? First and foremost, that the shape as represented on the shroud is so out of proportion that it couldn't have come from contact with a human body, whatever the process.
Edited by Agatha:  Please address the arguments made, rather than attack the arguers.


Try inputting the following title into one's search engine, attaching the date Jan 2016:

Contact prints from a 3D figure will always be wider and suffer from wrap-around distortion. True or false?

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Old 23rd February 2017, 08:35 AM   #79
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You have enough posts now I believe to be posting links directly yourself. Otherwise you can put links in the format "www dot whatever dot com" and someone else can make the link for you. That is acceptable practise here.

Never mind "him checking out his pre-conceptions". How about you explain the obvious distortions, such as the overly long arms and odd head size, and tell us if you have satisfied yourself that a contact print, of whatever method or technique, would have produced such odd looking features?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 08:36 AM   #80
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What about the figure on the shroud not hsving the proportions of a real person?
It looks like a stylised painting.
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