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Old 23rd February 2017, 08:56 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
That would generate the same issue, though. A bas relief mask is still a 3D object. The only difference is that it has a background, rather than being free standing.

Edti: Why go through all this silliness? Wouldn't it be simpler (if the chemistry proved accurate), to just paint the image with oil, then shake and bake?
Yes, but linen, wet linen especially (as used in my Model 10) has an amazing ability to mould to SHALLOW relief, as is the case with bas relief, as distinct from full 3D. Try imprinting the back of your own hand if you don't believe me. Note the absence of creases, distortion etc. The first stage unwashed imprint, straight from the oven, looks for all the world like a close-fitting glove.

Where's the silliness in imprinting off a human body, if the aim was to promote the imprint as the actual one left by the crucified Jesus on Joseph of Arimathea's linen? It was virtually guaranteed to attract medieval pilgrims from far and wide, a rival attraction to the (then) celebrated Veil of Veronica, that being an 'inferior' face-only imprint.

Paint the image in oil? That would put too much oil into the fibres of the linen, probably interfering with image-development, and one could not be sure of the flour sticking only to the oil - it would get into the interstices of the dry, oil-free weave as well and then colour those too in the oven, giving a messy result.

The genius of the Shroud was to model the sweat/blood whole body imprint in a one-off session onto an up-and-over sheet of EXPENSIVE herringbone-weave linen. Business model: avoid any risk of a dud result by using one, or more probably two, REAL 3D human subjects as templates. (Why spoil the ship for a ha'penny worth of tar etc?)
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Old 23rd February 2017, 09:06 AM   #82
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Now you are contradicting yourself. First you say the fidelity is because you are using real human subjects as templates, then you are talking about shallow relief masks. Doesn't that void the whole point of your technique right there?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 09:16 AM   #83
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What fidelity? the figure on the shroud has wrong proportions to be taken from a real body and the head is all wrong unless the model was a freak.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 09:20 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You have enough posts now I believe to be posting links directly yourself. Otherwise you can put links in the format "www dot whatever dot com" and someone else can make the link for you. That is acceptable practise here.

Never mind "him checking out his pre-conceptions". How about you explain the obvious distortions, such as the overly long arms and odd head size, and tell us if you have satisfied yourself that a contact print, of whatever method or technique, would have produced such odd looking features?
Some say it's the fingers that are too long, rather than the arms (something on which I have no strong opinion). But I did a critique recently on the 33 bullet-pointed challenges that Mark Antonacci made to Shroud sceptics at the end of his 2000 book. Point 11 addressed the problem of the fingers (no mention of arms) thus:


Incorporate specific effects of a draped cloth that fell through a body region – such as blood marks displaced into the hair, motion blurs at the side of the face and in the neck/throat region and below the hair, along with elongated fingers.

Here's how I responded:

"Have just had an idea that links those alleged “motion blurs” (to which this proponent of contact-imaging is favourably disposed in principle) AND, surprisingly perhaps, those “elongated” fingers too. Previously I have suggested two factors that might make fingers look elongated, while not entirely convinced they were the whole explanation (they being an imaging under contact pressure of metatarsal bones in the back of the hand, adding to the apparent length of the fingers, and a bridging of linen between finger bones, making the fingers look slimmer (and longer?) than they really are.

I now have an entirely new explanation.

One, or probably two naked male volunteers were laid head to head on the floor, face up/face down as previously described. The face-up volunteer was instructed to cross hands over groin region before being oiled and sprinkled with white flour. (But it’s actually quite hard to do full cover and protect genitals if one’s head stays in contact with the floor -one’s arms are not long enough, as others before me have pointed out). Next step: wet linen was draped on top. Now comes the eye-watering part of this account. Along came one or more artisans to manually pat down the linen to capture the surface relief, including those two crossed hands. Are you thinking what I’m thinking, dear reader? Yes, our subject suddenly winced on account of his hands being ill-positioned to offer full protection. He raised his head from the floor, both in surprise and maybe protest, using the opportunity to move his hands further down. Hey presto, one has an explanation for the claimed blurring of the image, not only for the groin region (fingers then appearing too long) but for the face and head too! One may even have an explanation for the allegedly tipped-forward/downward head, previously ascribed to rigor mortis, or the unsatisfactory look to the junction of chin and neck, maybe even that prominent so-called “crease” at chin level. All this assumes that imprinting occurred off a real face. While I think it occurred off a real torso/limbs, that would not exclude separate imprinting of a head, correction “head” from a bas relief, e.g wooden carving, as proposed by Luigi Garlaschelli in his powder frottage model – a real face being tricky for contact-imprinting on account of the nose and other sharp relief."


Yup, I could give a link (to most recent posting on my specialist Shroud site) but I'm still wary about putting in links here, given the charges of self-publicity, click-baiting, channelling traffic to one's own site bla bla. I'm only here for efficient dissemination of IDEAS. Links to the closely-argued detail can wait.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 09:45 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Now you are contradicting yourself. First you say the fidelity is because you are using real human subjects as templates, then you are talking about shallow relief masks. Doesn't that void the whole point of your technique right there?
Think of it as a necessary compromise. It's one thing to manufacture a bas relief for the face, if you know ahead of time that contact imprinting does not work for a real face. Why go to the trouble of manufacturing a whole body statue or bas relief if your pilot experiments had shown that one could obtain a satisfactory imprint from torso and limbs using one or more real human subjects?

There are other examples one could cite of hard-headed compromises, like the "wounds" being shown entirely by blood (or "blood") with no evidence of punctures, lacerations, cuts from scourging etc. in the sepia BODY IMAGE. But don't tell the pro-authenticity-tendency I said so. The latter is convinced - to a man and woman - that it can see real wounds, and which indeed gets away with describing them as such in all its publications, peer-reviewed included, using the terms "blood" and "wounds" interchangeably. Such is the messianic tunnel vision that is sindonology...
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Old 23rd February 2017, 09:59 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
I have already responded in some detail to particular comments made here to my experimentally-based Model 10 (flour-imprinting). I refer to the one or two that are worded in moderate and clearly-articulated language.

So try me on the issues that may concern you. But do please confine comments to the science (hypothesis formulation and testing etc). That's what I do, that's why I'm here - to discuss the science. If I continue to get the needless flak, for no apparent reason, then I shall move on. Pronto.
How...interesting that your insistence on confining comments to "the science" includes characterizing easy objections as "flak".

Ack. Ack.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:01 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Now you are contradicting yourself. First you say the fidelity is because you are using real human subjects as templates, then you are talking about shallow relief masks. Doesn't that void the whole point of your technique right there?
The ad hoc retconning continues...
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:03 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Some say it's the fingers that are too long, rather than the arms (something on which I have no strong opinion). But I did a critique recently on the 33 bullet-pointed challenges that Mark Antonacci made to Shroud sceptics at the end of his 2000 book. Point 11 addressed the problem of the fingers (no mention of arms) thus:


Incorporate specific effects of a draped cloth that fell through a body region – such as blood marks displaced into the hair, motion blurs at the side of the face and in the neck/throat region and below the hair, along with elongated fingers.

Here's how I responded:

"Have just had an idea that links those alleged “motion blurs” (to which this proponent of contact-imaging is favourably disposed in principle) AND, surprisingly perhaps, those “elongated” fingers too. Previously I have suggested two factors that might make fingers look elongated, while not entirely convinced they were the whole explanation (they being an imaging under contact pressure of metatarsal bones in the back of the hand, adding to the apparent length of the fingers, and a bridging of linen between finger bones, making the fingers look slimmer (and longer?) than they really are.

I now have an entirely new explanation.

One, or probably two naked male volunteers were laid head to head on the floor, face up/face down as previously described. The face-up volunteer was instructed to cross hands over groin region before being oiled and sprinkled with white flour. (But it’s actually quite hard to do full cover and protect genitals if one’s head stays in contact with the floor -one’s arms are not long enough, as others before me have pointed out). Next step: wet linen was draped on top. Now comes the eye-watering part of this account. Along came one or more artisans to manually pat down the linen to capture the surface relief, including those two crossed hands. Are you thinking what I’m thinking, dear reader? Yes, our subject suddenly winced on account of his hands being ill-positioned to offer full protection. He raised his head from the floor, both in surprise and maybe protest, using the opportunity to move his hands further down. Hey presto, one has an explanation for the claimed blurring of the image, not only for the groin region (fingers then appearing too long) but for the face and head too! One may even have an explanation for the allegedly tipped-forward/downward head, previously ascribed to rigor mortis, or the unsatisfactory look to the junction of chin and neck, maybe even that prominent so-called “crease” at chin level. All this assumes that imprinting occurred off a real face. While I think it occurred off a real torso/limbs, that would not exclude separate imprinting of a head, correction “head” from a bas relief, e.g wooden carving, as proposed by Luigi Garlaschelli in his powder frottage model – a real face being tricky for contact-imprinting on account of the nose and other sharp relief."


Yup, I could give a link (to most recent posting on my specialist Shroud site) but I'm still wary about putting in links here, given the charges of self-publicity, click-baiting, channelling traffic to one's own site bla bla. I'm only here for efficient dissemination of IDEAS. Links to the closely-argued detail can wait.
See the previous threads about objections to the genital-concealing "shroud slouch"...
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:04 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Think of it as a necessary compromise.
It's one thing to manufacture a bas relief for the face, if you know ahead of time that contact imprinting does not work for a real face. Why go to the trouble of manufacturing a whole body statue or bas relief if your pilot experiments had shown that one could obtain a satisfactory imprint from torso and limbs using one or more real human subjects?

There are other examples one could cite of hard-headed compromises, like the "wounds" being shown entirely by blood (or "blood") with no evidence of punctures, lacerations, cuts from scourging etc. in the sepia BODY IMAGE. But don't tell the pro-authenticity-tendency I said so. The latter is convinced - to a man and woman - that it can see real wounds, and which indeed gets away with describing them as such in all its publications, peer-reviewed included, using the terms "blood" and "wounds" interchangeably. Such is the messianic tunnel vision that is sindonology...
You appear to have misspelled ad-hoc rationalization.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:14 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Why go to the trouble of manufacturing a whole body statue or bas relief if your pilot experiments had shown that one could obtain a satisfactory imprint from torso and limbs using one or more real human subjects?
It's clearly not the imprint of a real body, because the proportions are wrong. So your question is irrelevant.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:42 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I haven't seen any evidence of this Mallard reaction.
If it looks like a duck.......
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:45 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
If it looks like a duck.......
Not that old canard...
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:43 AM   #93
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I was asked earlier to supply an image of my imprinted hand. Let's see if image insertion works. Here's my hand imprint immediately after the oven-heating step, but before the final image-attenuation (achieved via vigorous water-washing).

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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:47 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
I have already responded in some detail to particular comments made here to my experimentally-based Model 10 (flour-imprinting). I refer to the one or two that are worded in moderate and clearly-articulated language.

So try me on the issues that may concern you. But do please confine comments to the science (hypothesis formulation and testing etc). That's what I do, that's why I'm here - to discuss the science. If I continue to get the needless flak, for no apparent reason, then I shall move on. Pronto.
Why do you then avoid issues that torpedoe your thesis?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:50 AM   #95
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This is the same hand imprint before v after washing. It's the lower washed half I consider to be a promising model for the Shroud body image (faint, fuzzy, negative (tone-reversed), responsive to 3D-rendering software, bleachable etc etc.

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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:52 AM   #96
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The "before" picture is interesting, but unenlightening. It's the "after" picture which will be more telling.

The problem you've got with this theory is that the hand looks like a hand, and not like the Doctor Who make-up artists have been at it. Same with the disproportionate head. Furthermore, there doesn't appear to be anything other than "it looks something like the same" to support this notion, whereas we like actual evidence here.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:54 AM   #97
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Kindly state (or restate) your objection, abaddon, and I'll endeavour to answer it.
(Isn't "torpedo" a bit strong a term to be deploying so early when dealing with a scientific model?)

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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:55 AM   #98
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You might some longer fingers before you get a good facsimile.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:00 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Kindly state (or restate) your objection and I'll endeavour to answer it.
OK. Two points:

1/ The shape on the shroud can't have come from a body contact print because it isn't human-shaped.

2/ It is possible to come up with any number of plausible methods of producing the image on a sheet of linen. There is no evidence available to pick one method over another, so this attempt by you, worthy and plausible as it is to try, can never rise to anything more certain than "might be".
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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:07 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
OK. Two points:

1/ The shape on the shroud can't have come from a body contact print because it isn't human-shaped.

2/ It is possible to come up with any number of plausible methods of producing the image on a sheet of linen. There is no evidence available to pick one method over another, so this attempt by you, worthy and plausible as it is to try, can never rise to anything more certain than "might be".
Sorry, but I disagree profoundly with both of those points. It might be best to dispense with detailed reasons - which take time to compose - unless you're genuinely interested in hearing them.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 01:39 PM   #101
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What about the Gibbon like arms and the misshapen head?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 01:50 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What about the Gibbon like arms and the misshapen head?
"Metaphor".

(oops...wrong thread)
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Old 23rd February 2017, 02:29 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Sorry, but I disagree profoundly with both of those points. It might be best to dispense with detailed reasons - which take time to compose - unless you're genuinely interested in hearing them.
Well I'm not particularly, but others here certainly will be. Methinks you may have got too close to this subject for too long, and can't actually see the wood for the trees, so to speak. If you cover a human with anything and spread a sheet over them, the ensuing marks on the sheet will not have a mis-sized head, elongated limbs, and banana fingers seen in the image on the shroud.

I accept that you know far more about the chemistry of the shroud than I do. Could you tell us what it is about that chemistry which demonstrates that the images could only have been formed using the flour and oil method you describe? If it isn't the chemistry, what other science might exclude all other explanations? If you can't button it down to a certainty, maybe you might have been a little quick to dismiss my second point.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 03:35 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
"Metaphor".

(oops...wrong thread)
(or possibly the right thread)
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:55 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well I'm not particularly, but others here certainly will be. Methinks you may have got too close to this subject for too long, and can't actually see the wood for the trees, so to speak. If you cover a human with anything and spread a sheet over them, the ensuing marks on the sheet will not have a mis-sized head, elongated limbs, and banana fingers seen in the image on the shroud.

I accept that you know far more about the chemistry of the shroud than I do. Could you tell us what it is about that chemistry which demonstrates that the images could only have been formed using the flour and oil method you describe? If it isn't the chemistry, what other science might exclude all other explanations? If you can't button it down to a certainty, maybe you might have been a little quick to dismiss my second point.
Here's a brief reply to the first part of your question, MIkeG. (I may address the other parts later when I've some more time).

There are two possible answers to the 'overlong arms'.

The first, arguably the more likely, was that hands would need to be crossed over groin for public exhibition of an imprint from a clearly naked man. It was then quickly established that the normal anatomy does not permit that if the subject is recumbent with head resting on the floor. But it does become possible merely by lifting the head a few inches off said floor. So maybe those arms only appear too long because one is subconsciously making the assumption that the subject's head was in contact with the floor when it was not. So the head was probably propped up with a cushion or two for the frontal imprint, while - as suggested previously - a second subject of approx the same build was recruited for the dorsal image on the other half of the linen.

In fact there are advantages to be gained from that raised frontal-image head, at least if imprinting the real head, because it narrows the gap between chin and chest, neatly avoiding problems to do with tricky imaging of the neck without underside of chin. (The option of substituting a bas relief for the real head has already been noted, such that torso and limbs only are imprinted off the raised-head subject).

Alternative explanation? The modellers intended the arms to look too long, whether by the means above - raising of the head - or by finding someone blessed or cursed with exceptionally long arms. Why would they have wanted to do that? Answer: go figure (the clue being death by crucifixion, which involves arms being required to support at least part of the body weight for several hours). What's needed here is a stretch of the imagination, or, better still, an imagination of the stretch.

Those seemingly overlong arms could have provided a useful talking point before finally imploring pilgrims to donate generously to the offertory box on their way out of the viewing area.
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Old 24th February 2017, 01:31 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Here's a brief reply to the first part of your question, MIkeG. (I may address the other parts later when I've some more time).

There are two possible answers to the 'overlong arms'.
Very interesting your “washed” hand.

I think that some alternative hypotheses are possible but they have to explain some features of the body image that are not “natural”. For example:
(1) The fingers are abnormally elongated. The forefinger is longer than the ring finger of the lower hand. This is a classical feature of the late gothic and first Renaisance (Cuatrocento). See this: https://i1.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.o...128.jpg?zoom=2
(2) The position of the hands over the pubis is impossible with the angles of the elbows. This elongation of the arms is characteristic of some painters as Boticelli: See his The birth of Venus: http://www.artchive.com/artchive/b/botticelli/venus.jpg
(3) The blood rivulets are naturally impossible whether the person is up or lying. See Garlaschelli demonstration: http://www.aafs.org/sites/default/fi...roceedings.pdf and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNzVc1MqJ2s . The blood stains of the back of the head are specially impossible : https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehy...ng?w=768&h=411
.

All these unnatural features are visible with naked eye and show that some pictorial retouches are necessary to explain these physical impossibilities.

However, something can be made to discover the real cause of the image only if the church allows that the cloth be examined by an interdisciplinary and independent scientific team. To leave the sindonoligsts be in charge of the investigation is not useless, is harmful. They have no experience of the sophisticated methods of the scientific study of works of art and they are obsessed to demonstrate the authenticity of the Shroud. This is a dangerous mixture.
In addition, the Catholic Church has a big business with the Shroud in Turin. The radiocarbon dating threatened the benefits both spiritual and material and I doubt very much that they risk again.
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Old 24th February 2017, 02:20 AM   #107
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Greetings, all; it's been a while since I looked in, and I must say I'm glad you're now thinking about how the image on the Shroud might have been made, which is linked to my own particular interest, which is why it was made at all.

Rakovsky: It was a bit rash of you to begin with "I believe" before asking for sources for your belief; that's not really how they see things around here. However, your enquiry has relevance. Even if the Shroud is Medieval, it is worth asking what its antecedents were. There certainly were "shrouds" in Constantinople, probably more than one, and also "acheiropoietic" images, including the Mandylion and probably a couple of Veronicas. The cult of relics seems to have emerged during the 5th century, and none of them have provenances from earlier - although some of the accounts of that time claim to record earlier histories. You also mention the Gospel of the Hebrews, but the linen cloth mentioned in it does not necessarily have anything to do with the burial of Jesus. It occurs in a tiny fragment in Jerome's works, which are also 5th century. Irenaeus, in the 2nd Century, deplores the custom of the Carpocrations to venerate images of Christ along with other philosophers, but there is no suggestion that these are relics.

Meccanoman: Good to see you entering the fray again!

David Mo: Good to see you too!

MikeG: I too have problems with using real people, and in fact I'm not keen on the bas relief either. My own experiments at the moment use a thick paste made of iron oxide powder and vinegar, which I am dabbing onto bits of cloth either with a home-made 'pounce', or just a brush. It is almost a 'dry brushing' technique. The idea is that the 'paint' only touches the very outsides of the threads, that the iron oxide easily comes off, but that the vinegar degrades the cloth sufficiently well to leave the "sweat-mark" discolouration that we see on the Shroud.
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Old 24th February 2017, 03:38 AM   #108
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Hello again Hugh

Sorry, but I don't buy into your idea of acetic acid the generator of the body image's still unidentified chromophore? What's it supposed to be acting upon to generate a reflectance spectrum which STURP said was virtually indistinguishable from that of the 1532 scorch margins? (Thus my own focus btw on thermal mechanisms). Yes, I know that Heller and Adler and others speculated on the colour coming via acid-induced dehydration of carbohydrates, referring dubiously to cellulose as the susceptible target but their resort to concentrated sulphuric acid as a model reagent was unconvincing. I tested battery acid (34% H2SO4) letting it evaporate to higher concentrations, but never saw any yellowing or browning unless heat was also applied, and even then the coloration was slight.

The acetic acid of vinegar is not only very dilute (typically 5%) but it's also, needless to say, a much weaker acid in pH terms than sulphuric and other strong mineral acids. Had I obtained a worthwhile coloration with vinegar I'd have been more inclined to focus on the caramel colour used to give malt vinegar its brown colour, said in some references to be colloidal and thus less likely perhaps (?) to migrate away from superficial locations in the weave, optimistically reducing the risk (?) of 'non-permissible' reverse side coloration (the latter presently an occasional unwelcome appearance in my system which I'm still attempting to resolve).

But there's a more fundamental criticism that could be made of your current approach. You are ignoring the fact that the Shroud body image has the properties (primarily) of an image acquired by contact, not free-hand painting - whether wet, dry or somewhere in-between. Who bothers painting in the negative, to give reversed tones, consistent with an authentic life-size double body IMPRINT onto linen, when it's (surely?) so much simpler to put aside the brushes and take an IMPRINT allowing natural anatomical topography to yield the correct tonal balance of light and dark, almost as a good as a 19th/20th century silver-emulsion negative photograph?
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Old 24th February 2017, 08:06 AM   #109
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Wait, are you using bleached flour?
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Old 24th February 2017, 11:04 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Wait, are you using bleached flour?
Yes, I am, and you are right to flag up differences between modern and medieval flour.

But the faint yellow colour of unbleached so-called 'white flour' is usually attributed to the presence of traces of flavins, but I frankly can't see them altering the Maillard browning reactions that take place in a hot oven - whether modern or medieval - due to chemical reaction at elevated temperature between reducing sugars and proteins.

The human eye is exceedingly sensitive to colour - yellow ones against a white background especially.

But one should not let that blind one to the kind of far more important chemical reactions that take place between those major (non-coloured) constituents of wheat flour - bleached or unbleached - when temperatures are reached that generate NEW yellow or brown colour - far more visible I might say than those traces of flavins in unbleached flour.

Having said that, control experiments are necessary I grant you, though some might consider that to be a dotting of i-s, crossing of t-s, i.e. character-forming counsel of perfection.

Personally, I try to achieve perfection in all my endeavours, but repeatedly find myself falling short. I blame my genes. Bring on post-partum gene editing I say! My dad never got things right where science was concerned...

Thank you for the observant comment.

Ignore this spontaneous, ill-considered response.
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Old 24th February 2017, 02:16 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
[hilite]......I accept that you know far more about the chemistry of the shroud than I do. Could you tell us what it is about that chemistry which demonstrates that the images could only have been formed using the flour and oil method you describe? If it isn't the chemistry, what other science might exclude all other explanations? If you can't button it down to a certainty, maybe you might have been a little quick to dismiss my second point.
Just a polite reminder that you haven't answered this point yet.
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Old 24th February 2017, 03:18 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Just a polite reminder that you haven't answered this point yet.
It's not the task of science to come up with explanations that exclude all other ones, least of all future ones. One is usually content to account for all KNOWN data without presuming to exclude next year's or next century's data that are not yet in one's possession.

My Model 10 (flour imprinting) provides an explanation for the claimed microscopic properties of the Shroud body image (notably so-called half- tone effect, abrupt discontinuities of coloration along individual fibres). In fact it not only provides an explanation - it reproduces them experimentally under controlled, reproducible conditions! But it would be foolish to claim it's the only possible explanation. The onus is now on others to say why my model is wrong, and to come up with alternative explanations. Eighteen months have passed and I'm still waiting.
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Old 24th February 2017, 04:21 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Very interesting your “washed” hand.

I think that some alternative hypotheses are possible but they have to explain some features of the body image that are not “natural”. For example:
(1) The fingers are abnormally elongated. The forefinger is longer than the ring finger of the lower hand. This is a classical feature of the late gothic and first Renaisance (Cuatrocento). See this: https://i1.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.o...128.jpg?zoom=2
(2) The position of the hands over the pubis is impossible with the angles of the elbows. This elongation of the arms is characteristic of some painters as Boticelli: See his The birth of Venus: http://www.artchive.com/artchive/b/botticelli/venus.jpg
(3) The blood rivulets are naturally impossible whether the person is up or lying. See Garlaschelli demonstration: http://www.aafs.org/sites/default/fi...roceedings.pdf and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNzVc1MqJ2s . The blood stains of the back of the head are specially impossible : https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehy...ng?w=768&h=411
.

All these unnatural features are visible with naked eye and show that some pictorial retouches are necessary to explain these physical impossibilities.

However, something can be made to discover the real cause of the image only if the church allows that the cloth be examined by an interdisciplinary and independent scientific team. To leave the sindonoligsts be in charge of the investigation is not useless, is harmful. They have no experience of the sophisticated methods of the scientific study of works of art and they are obsessed to demonstrate the authenticity of the Shroud. This is a dangerous mixture.
In addition, the Catholic Church has a big business with the Shroud in Turin. The radiocarbon dating threatened the benefits both spiritual and material and I doubt very much that they risk again.

Hello again David

Your comment re the flour-imprint of my hand from August last year prompted me to go looking for the unwashed fingers end. It didn't take long to find. This afternoon I divided it into two, and washed one part, leaving the other as unwashed control as before. Here's the result.



I omitted to mention that the "before" was NOT straight from the oven, as stated earlier. It was first soaked in warm water for 30 mins, which has an astonishing effect - it causes the image zone to plump up to make a semi-3D bas relief! There's a possible story there that can be fitted to the events of mid-1350's (when the first exhibitions at Lirey got the blessing of local Troyes bishop, Henri de Poitiers) but I'll spare you my speculations on that, and why Henri subsequently went ballistic with later showings). Are you thinking what I'm thinking (like display of wet bas relief initially, and later the faded washed-out image)?
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Old 24th February 2017, 06:04 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Sorry, but I don't buy into your idea of acetic acid the generator of the body image's still unidentified chromophore?
Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
It's not the task of science to come up with explanations that exclude all other ones, least of all future ones. One is usually content to account for all KNOWN data without presuming to exclude next year's or next century's data that are not yet in one's possession.

Why do you say "unidentified"? Walter McCrone identified the chromophore particles taken from the STURP tape samples as red ochre and vermillion pigment, consistent with medieval artist's pigments. Based references you've made, I assume you're familiar with McCrone's analysis.
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Old 25th February 2017, 12:35 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by ferd burfle View Post
Why do you say "unidentified"? Walter McCrone identified the chromophore particles taken from the STURP tape samples as red ochre and vermillion pigment, consistent with medieval artist's pigments. Based references you've made, I assume you're familiar with McCrone's analysis.
Yup, indeed I am, as perforce must anyone who wishes to be taken seriously as a Shroud researcher. It would take too long to relate all the contrary evidence to McCrone's bizarre claims, though John Heller's book, relating his and Alan Adler's deep scepticism re the origin of traces of red ochre is a good start. (Reminder: the ochre - iron oxide- was too pure to have been derived from an artist's paint pigment and other origins were suggested, like having been adsorbed onto the linen from the natural waters in the flax-retting pond via ion exchange etc etc.) What amazes me is why Heller and Adler did not make more of their own finding that the image coloration is bleachable with diimide, NH=NH. That agent has a highly targeted hydrogenating action on -C=C- double bonds, converting them to -CH2-CH2- so could never have bleached anything that was an inorganic oxide, sulphide or other mineral substance. It's action is highly specific for organic compounds, specifically those whose chromophore is due to conjugated C=C double bonds, i.e. an alternation of double and single bonds, e.g. =CH-CH=CH-CH=CH- , maybe with some -N= linkages in the linear sequence as well. One probably needs to hydrogenate only a few of the -C=C- bonds in the sequence to destroy the highly-delocalised pi-bonded system, effectively decolorising the chromophore.

The trouble with McCrone is that he was - to put it baldly - a one-trick pony, relying almost entirely on what he could see down his microscope, which gave undue emphasis to traces of particulate material - hardly ideal when dealing with the origins of a diffuse yellow-brown coloration that is more akin to a stain than to an encrustation of artists' paint, ancient or otherwise.

My own view is that the colour is due to the limited seepage from roasting white flour in the region of 180 to 200 degrees C of a LIQUID exudate of Maillard reaction products, i.e. from interactions between reducing sugars and amino-groups. The liquid is able to migrate via the spaces between the linen fibres, i.e. via capillary action, with chemical condensation reactions taking place on the short journey to form high molecular weight enormously complex melanoidin pigments. The latter deposits as an exceedingly thin, superficial coating in an either/or fashion i.e. stained/not-stained, accounting for the peculiar 'half-tone' effect and 'discontinuities' discovered by Mark Evans and others in the course of the 78 STURP investigation. I have been able to witness and report those same two bizarre characteristics in my otherwise simple unsophisticated kitchen-based flour-imprinting technology.
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Old 25th February 2017, 01:16 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Yup, indeed I am, as perforce must anyone who wishes to be taken seriously as a Shroud researcher. It would take too long to relate all the contrary evidence to McCrone's bizarre claims, though John Heller's book, relating his and Alan Adler's deep scepticism re the origin of traces of red ochre is a good start. (Reminder: the ochre - iron oxide- was too pure to have been derived from an artist's paint pigment and other origins were suggested, like having been adsorbed onto the linen from the natural waters in the flax-retting pond via ion exchange etc etc.)
From my ignorance of the scientific theories of Adler and Heller, I don't attach too much importance of their claims because they didn't present them in an acceptable scientific form in some cases and they seem inconclusive in other. For example: they never quantified their conclusions about the "small" quantity of red particles in the image. McCrone did it. For example: they allegued (Adler) to have produced reddish colour by mixing bilirubin and blood but never presented his experiences. They claimed that there was not any image under the blood stains, but demanded more samples "to confirm" this point. Not very consistent.

I don't know the chemical "performances" of the Maillard reaction neither. But I am certain that the Shroud image was not formed by contact or emanation. The famous vaporografic hypothesis is impossible.

And, as I have said in a previous comment, I consider almost impossible that some features of the image have been produced without human intervention (a painter almost certainly).
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Old 25th February 2017, 01:41 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
From my ignorance of the scientific theories of Adler and Heller, I don't attach too much importance of their claims because they didn't present them in an acceptable scientific form in some cases and they seem inconclusive in other. For example: they never quantified their conclusions about the "small" quantity of red particles in the image. McCrone did it. For example: they allegued (Adler) to have produced reddish colour by mixing bilirubin and blood but never presented his experiences. They claimed that there was not any image under the blood stains, but demanded more samples "to confirm" this point. Not very consistent.

I don't know the chemical "performances" of the Maillard reaction neither. But I am certain that the Shroud image was not formed by contact or emanation. The famous vaporografic hypothesis is impossible.

And, as I have said in a previous comment, I consider almost impossible that some features of the image have been produced without human intervention (a painter almost certainly).

I concur with your view as regards 'emanation', David, regardless of what is allegedly emanating from a dead body - radiation or organic amines. But you have also dismissed a contact-imprinting mechanism as well, as earlier here has Hugh Farey. I'd be interested to hear yours and Hugh's reasons for what I consider an extraordinary position.

As for Adler and his bilirubin, that was almost pure fantasizing (but for weak uv fluorescence and a non-specific colorimetric spot test under the microscope), all the worse for being dressed up as science. The less said about that claim for "extraordinary amounts of bilirubin" the better.

But Adler being wrong about one or even several things does not necessarily equate to Adler being wrong about everything. One ought to give very serious consideration to the implications of the image pigment being decolorized by that diimide reagent. It's certainly been a major factor in the development of my own thinking - right or wrong- these last 5 years.
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Old 25th February 2017, 01:47 AM   #118
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I have experimented with varying concentrations of sulphuric acid, but find that the discolouration it produces is very grey, rather than the scorched appearance of the Shroud. I tried vinegar on a whim, and it does produce the correct colour, but only after heating. However I don't believe the image was painted in invisible ink, which is why I have combined it with iron oxide. As David Mo suggests, however, the amount of iron oxide, and in particular whether there is enough to produce an image, and how uniformly distributed it is across the cloth, is inadequately evidenced to be sure about. It is quite difficult to carry out experiments to place, say 1ug of powder evenly over 1cm2 of cloth, so as to observe the visibility of the outcome.


Sorry, I missed Meccanoman's last comment. I have spent some happy hours smearing my face with cocoa and pressing cloths to it, but have never achieved anything remotely satisfactory. There is not only the 'Agamemnon Mask' effect, but also the serious problem of creases and wrinkles, which invariably result in big triangles of non-contacted cloth. Hands, as we can see, are much flatter than faces, so these 'wrapping' distortions are minimised, but I cannot see that technique applying to whole bodies.

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Old 25th February 2017, 02:20 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by hugh farey View Post
I have experimented with varying concentrations of sulphuric acid, but find that the discolouration it produces is very grey, rather than the scorched appearance of the Shroud. I tried vinegar on a whim, and it does produce the correct colour, but only after heating. However I don't believe the image was painted in invisible ink, which is why I have combined it with iron oxide. As David Mo suggests, however, the amount of iron oxide, and in particular whether there is enough to produce an image, and how uniformly distributed it is across the cloth, is inadequately evidenced to be sure about. It is quite difficult to carry out experiments to place, say 1ug of powder evenly over 1cm2 of cloth, so as to observe the visibility of the outcome.


Sorry, I missed Meccanoman's last comment. I have spent some happy hours smearing my face with cocoa and pressing cloths to it, but have never achieved anything remotely satisfactory. There is not only the 'Agamemnon Mask' effect, but also the serious problem of creases and wrinkles, which invariably result in big triangles of non-contacted cloth. Hands, as we can see, are much flatter than faces, so these 'wrapping' distortions are minimised, but I cannot see that technique applying to whole bodies.
I agree wholeheartedly about the face, and share Luigi Garlaschelli's view that a separate bas relief was used (which accounts for the curious mask-like appearance with severe cut-offs at the cheek bones.

Hands - no problem, being flat. But don't be too quick to dismiss contact-imaging for the torso and limbs as well. They are also somewhat flat as regards highest relief, arguably more like hands than face.

Have you tried imprinting off one or more parts of the torso and limbs, Hugh? I'm presently experimenting with a large plastic toy - approx half human scale ! Initial results look highly promising: here you see the way that the flour-imprinting medium is only harvested off the higher relief to give a final imprint - not shown - that bears all the hallmarks of "made by contact", that same hallmark being seen in numerous places across the Shroud body image I might add.



PS: Have belatedly taken a photograph (from top of step ladder) of the unwetted, unwashed image from the above imprinting, alongside the full-length subject and a metre rule. Not wishing to flood this site with more photos than shown already, I'll hold it back until I have additional pix of the next two stages - wetting and final washing to get the bas relief and final Shroud-like result respectively. But if there's anyone wishing to see the first-stage imprint they need only ask.
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Old 25th February 2017, 04:53 AM   #120
ferd burfle
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
The trouble with McCrone is that he was - to put it baldly - a one-trick pony, relying almost entirely on what he could see down his microscope, which gave undue emphasis to traces of particulate material - hardly ideal when dealing with the origins of a diffuse yellow-brown coloration that is more akin to a stain than to an encrustation of artists' paint, ancient or otherwise.

It seems you've relied on secondary sources for your information about McCrone's analysis. If you'd have read his peer-reviewed, published paper you'd know his polarized light microscopy results were confirmed by microchemical tests, SEM/EDX elemental analysis and x-ray diffraction. See http://www.mcri.org/v/64/The-Shroud-of-Turin

Unfortunately the link to the paper on that page is broken; PM me if you'd like me to email you a copy.

ETA: The particles he analyzed were absent from the non-image (control) tape samples; the particles he analyzed were the chromophores.
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