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Old 24th February 2013, 08:30 PM   #5121
deaman
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

The argument is logically valid; so if you want to deny the conclusion, you must reject one of the two premisses. So which one do you deny?
1. God does not exist.
2. Objective moral values do not exist.
3. You and me, human beings, create moral values within ourselves. We create them and sustain them and live and die by them. We are responsible for ourselves. We are responsible for others. We are responsible for the Earth.

We answer to ourselves.
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Old 24th February 2013, 11:13 PM   #5122
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The fact that the bones are made of the same material can be interpreted as well, that they have been created by the same God, that created dino's.
So, no hard evidence on hand.
So your argument now is that anything I can explain as a simple result of observable naturalistic processes should be equally or better attributed to a supernatural miracle?

I understand that my Internet connection is though my WiFi network linked by DSL to AT&T, and I have a modem, a WiFi card, and a monthly bill to prove it. If I move my computer far enough away from my modem or put it in a Faraday cage I lose the signal. I can even detect the radio signals with a receiver. But apparently you believe that I should not rule out the possibility that God himself has chosen to connect me to the Forum through a magical prayer Ethernet. If so I have some complaints about download speed I want you to take to God next time you pray.
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Old 24th February 2013, 11:23 PM   #5123
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
that is just your subjective evaluation of the facts. If someone has the oposit opinion on the issue, its just opinion against opinion. Everything becomes relative and subjective. It would be arrogant on your part to think your opinion is more valid than someone elses.
No, morality is the evolution of standards of behavior that let societies get along and function. Morality is nothing more than the agreements we make to protect ourselves from everyone else. You don't hit people and take their stuff because you don't want to be hit and have your stuff taken. There's no opinion here. What the Nazis did violated the rules we came up with. Where in any of this do we need your imaginary friend to tell us that it's a good idea not to attack everyone else?
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Old 24th February 2013, 11:54 PM   #5124
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Using your reasoning, we are incapable of making a qualitative distinction between mozart and farts.
You refer, I think, to that subset of creation called music critics.

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
No.

It is an objective fact that the Nazis killed millions based on racial fantasies that are not supported by science. It is an objective fact that Germany and much of Europe were destroyed.

That this was a bad thing may be based on subjective human judgement, but the arguments used to justify this opinion are based on solid reasoning.

Ironically, the book that you claim to be your source of divinely dictated objective morality contains depictions of evils little different from what the Nazis did.

Joshua 11:10-15 Joshua turned back at that time, and took Hazor, and struck its king down with the sword. Before that time Hazor was the head of all those kingdoms. And they put to the sword all who were in it, utterly destroying them; there was no one left who breathed, and he burned Hazor with fire. And all the towns of those kings, and all their kings, Joshua took, and struck them with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them, as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded. But Israel burned none of the towns that stood on mounds except Hazor, which Joshua did burn. All the spoil of these towns, and the livestock, the Israelites took for their booty; but all the people they struck down with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, and they did not leave any who breathed. As the Lord had commanded his servant Moses, so Moses commanded Joshua, and so Joshua did; he left nothing undone of all that the Lord had commanded Moses.

1 Samuel 15:1-3 Samuel said to Saul, ‘The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, “I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.” ’

Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Exodus 32:25-29 When Moses saw that the people were running wild (for Aaron had let them run wild, to the derision of their enemies), then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, ‘Who is on the Lord’s side? Come to me!’ And all the sons of Levi gathered around him. He said to them, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, “Put your sword on your side, each of you! Go back and forth from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbour.” ’ The sons of Levi did as Moses commanded, and about three thousand of the people fell on that day. Moses said, ‘Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of the Lord, each one at the cost of a son or a brother, and so have brought a blessing on yourselves this day.’

hiliting by pakeha


I'm always charmed to see examples of human sacrifice in the OT!
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Old 25th February 2013, 03:22 AM   #5125
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
please point out, how objective moral values can exist without God.
They are just floundering about, grasping at scientific discoveries which support their assumptions and belief that naturalism can explain our existence.

There is no evidence, its all circumstantial.
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Old 25th February 2013, 03:26 AM   #5126
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
I don't need a goddamned answer from you. This isn't up to debate you are purposefully cherry picking a quote. You've done this before and I've had to call you out on it.
Hi Lowpro, he's just toying with you. His ace card is in the OP, its the word "existence".

Do you think that science can shed light on it?
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Old 25th February 2013, 04:04 AM   #5127
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Hi Lowpro, he's just toying with you. His ace card is in the OP, its the word "existence".
Ahh, hello, punshhh.

That's a bit more abstract than what Lowpro was dealing with. The topic's strayed rather far from where it began, mostly because GIBHOR demonstrated that he wanted to do something completely different than what is indicated by the OP.
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Old 25th February 2013, 04:09 AM   #5128
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
So your argument now is that anything I can explain as a simple result of observable naturalistic processes should be equally or better attributed to a supernatural miracle?
have you observed the transition of dinos to birds ?
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Old 25th February 2013, 04:15 AM   #5129
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
No, morality is the evolution of standards of behavior that let societies get along and function. Morality is nothing more than the agreements we make to protect ourselves from everyone else. You don't hit people and take their stuff because you don't want to be hit and have your stuff taken. There's no opinion here. What the Nazis did violated the rules we came up with. Where in any of this do we need your imaginary friend to tell us that it's a good idea not to attack everyone else?
Well, many hit others and take their stuff, and hide afterwards, so that they will not be the victim of the same sort. And they often are well succeeded in doing so. Many do follow their personal preferences, without taking in regard that it could hurt the next. If you take in consideration, that according to your world view, there is only this life, no afterlife, then whatever you will do, that makes you happy, it will happen only here. So altruistic behavior, like die for someone else, makes no sense. And there is also no justice. If you were a Jerk during your whole life, that will bring no consequeces.
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Old 25th February 2013, 04:31 AM   #5130
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
have you observed the transition of dinos to birds ?
Yes.
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Old 25th February 2013, 04:36 AM   #5131
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
..., that according to your world view, there is only this life, no afterlife, then whatever you will do, that makes you happy, it will happen only here. So altruistic behavior, like die for someone else, makes no sense..
So you are only good because you will receive special treatment when you die? You are only altruistic because it will benefit you personally.
You actually consider such greedy self interest moral?
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Old 25th February 2013, 04:44 AM   #5132
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Well, many hit others and take their stuff, and hide afterwards, so that they will not be the victim of the same sort. And they often are well succeeded in doing so. Many do follow their personal preferences, without taking in regard that it could hurt the next. If you take in consideration, that according to your world view, there is only this life, no afterlife, then whatever you will do, that makes you happy, it will happen only here. So altruistic behavior, like die for someone else, makes no sense. And there is also no justice. If you were a Jerk during your whole life, that will bring no consequeces.
Yes, and there's a consequence for them if they get caught. This is why the vast majority of us do not take other people's stuff. Where we have a rule of law to enforce this morality the system works. Where the rule of law breaks down this doesn't work. Some of the places where the rule of law fails are the most religious on Earth (ever been to Kenya?).

Obviously there is only this life. Belief in anything else is simply succumbing to superstition or the inability to face one's mortality (or both I suppose).

There's nothing wrong with doing what you find pleasing provided it harms no one else and doesn't prevent, unreasonably anyone else for doing as they please. I can't be bothered with some silly stories about apprentice carpenters with more ego than sense, flying horse, or made-up floods. The rules that humans have come up with are far superior to anything in your screwed up book.
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Old 25th February 2013, 04:47 AM   #5133
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
have you observed the transition of dinos to birds ?
Yes, you don't have to be present to watch it happen if you have the fossils. How is it coming finding a whale with ankles?
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Old 25th February 2013, 05:20 AM   #5134
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Why do you believe naturalism to be the best explanation for our existence ?

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
If you were a Jerk during your whole life, that will bring no consequeces.
And if you are a Jerk your whole life, but let god into your life, are you still judged by your actions?
If Jesus has taken our sins upon himself, where is your legislation?
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Old 25th February 2013, 05:46 AM   #5135
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
They are just floundering about, grasping at scientific discoveries which support their assumptions and belief that naturalism can explain our existence.

There is no evidence, its all circumstantial.
Nice non sequitor, it has nothing to do with objective morals, and of course naturalism doesn't care about ontology. So a non sequitor and a strawman

If you don't understand the evidence for the theory of natural selection, then you can learn
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Old 25th February 2013, 05:47 AM   #5136
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Hi Lowpro, he's just toying with you. His ace card is in the OP, its the word "existence".

Do you think that science can shed light on it?
What do you think great apes are, non-existing?
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Old 25th February 2013, 06:20 AM   #5137
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
have you observed the transition of dinos to birds ?


Actually that's quite an interesting & revealing comment coming from someone trying to defend creationism and deny evolution.

Interesting and revealing because it shows that despite all the pseudo-scientific claims that you have cut-&-pasted here, the entire creationist argument really just reduces to creationists having to reject all evidence that they cannot personally witness as happening directly before their own eyes (unless of course they think it supports their religious faith).
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Old 25th February 2013, 06:25 AM   #5138
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
have you observed the transition of dinos to birds ?
Have you observed the spreading of the Atlantic Sea floor?
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Old 25th February 2013, 06:26 AM   #5139
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
They are just floundering about, grasping at scientific discoveries which support their assumptions and belief that naturalism can explain our existence.

There is no evidence, its all circumstantial.


No evidence of what? No evidence of scientific discovery and explanation being correct?

If you are reduced to claiming that there is no evidence to support anything which science has discovered, explained and produced, then there must be something very strange indeed going on in your head .
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Old 25th February 2013, 06:27 AM   #5140
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Well, many hit others and take their stuff, and hide afterwards, so that they will not be the victim of the same sort. And they often are well succeeded in doing so. Many do follow their personal preferences, without taking in regard that it could hurt the next. If you take in consideration, that according to your world view, there is only this life, no afterlife, then whatever you will do, that makes you happy, it will happen only here. So altruistic behavior, like die for someone else, makes no sense. And there is also no justice. If you were a Jerk during your whole life, that will bring no consequeces.
And many who claim that their morality comes form 'god' do not cavil to be dishonest, and immoral, in pretense of support of their ideas of their 'god'.
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Old 25th February 2013, 06:56 AM   #5141
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Well, many hit others and take their stuff, and hide afterwards, so that they will not be the victim of the same sort. And they often are well succeeded in doing so. Many do follow their personal preferences, without taking in regard that it could hurt the next. If you take in consideration, that according to your world view, there is only this life, no afterlife, then whatever you will do, that makes you happy, it will happen only here. So altruistic behavior, like die for someone else, makes no sense. And there is also no justice. If you were a Jerk during your whole life, that will bring no consequeces.
You still didn't answer the question, GIBHOR. You keep avoiding it. If morals are universal, constant and objective, then is it immoral to kill your daughter for having sex outside of marriage?
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Old 25th February 2013, 06:57 AM   #5142
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
No evidence of what? No evidence of scientific discovery and explanation being correct?

If you are reduced to claiming that there is no evidence to support anything which science has discovered, explained and produced, then there must be something very strange indeed going on in your head .
It's just another god-of-the-gaps defense.

"Well, you still can't explain those things that we still can't observe, so therefor my superstitious assertions about magical beings must be correct."

In that form of fallacious reasoning, "We don't know" is always trumped by "We pretend to know".
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Old 25th February 2013, 06:59 AM   #5143
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
They are just floundering about, grasping at scientific discoveries which support their assumptions and belief that naturalism can explain our existence.
LOL.

Quote:
There is no evidence, its all circumstantial.
I'm glad you're here, punshhh. Can you answer the question that GIBHOR is floundering on and keeps refusing to answer?

Is it immoral to kill your daughter for having sex outside of marriage?
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Old 25th February 2013, 08:06 AM   #5144
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
LOL.
It's always amusing when someone uses a computer to instantly communicate to people all over the world his or her derision of science.
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Old 25th February 2013, 08:35 AM   #5145
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
It's always amusing when someone uses a computer to instantly communicate to people all over the world his or her derision of science.
Yes but other than instantaneous worldwide communications what has science ever done for us?
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Old 25th February 2013, 08:49 AM   #5146
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When reading this thread, I can't help but imagine a youthful Gibhor coming to school without his homework, and giving the teacher an elaborate story about space aliens and atom bombs and interstellar time journeys. And when the teacher says "Baloney, you just didn't do it," mystification. "But it was such a good explanation! Much better than yours."
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Old 25th February 2013, 11:49 AM   #5147
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There is no direct evidence for God as creator. We do not see him. We do not see her. We do not see an intelligence that we identify clearly as such create before our very eyes. We do see nature creating, granted not living systems, but we see nature creating. So we go with what we see. God needs to show us himself/herself and make a fish or something. then we might believe that nonsense. On the other hand no one has ever presented good fossil evidence for a fish becoming a man, a reptile a bird, a one celled bug a whale and on and on. So neither theory is any good. It is just the naturalistic one is more evidentiary based because we have ZERO evidence for the existence of GOd.
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Old 25th February 2013, 11:52 AM   #5148
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reposted with appropriate quote

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Old 25th February 2013, 11:54 AM   #5149
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Yes but other than instantaneous worldwide communications what has science ever done for us?
Penicillin!
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Old 25th February 2013, 11:58 AM   #5150
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Yes but other than instantaneous worldwide communications what has science ever done for us?
Condoms, IUDs, BCPs, surgical pregnancy terminations.
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Old 25th February 2013, 12:10 PM   #5151
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Originally Posted by indomitablespirit View Post
On the other hand no one has ever presented good fossil evidence for a fish becoming a man, a reptile a bird, a one celled bug a whale and on and on. So neither theory is any good. It is just the naturalistic one is more evidentiary based because we have ZERO evidence for the existence of GOd.
No. Plenty of fossil evidence of transition has been presented in this thread.
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Old 25th February 2013, 12:12 PM   #5152
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Originally Posted by indomitablespirit View Post
Condoms, IUDs, BCPs, surgical pregnancy terminations.
How odd that you exclusively select only things pertaining to sex and reproduction and not, for example, the computer on which you typed your message.
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Old 25th February 2013, 12:30 PM   #5153
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Hi Lowpro, he's just toying with you. His ace card is in the OP, its the word "existence".

Do you think that science can shed light on it?
Depends on whether you want to conflate the word with "purpose".

I can tell you a lot about existence from an empirical perspective but not much on purpose. If his ace in the hole in on our existence then I just default to biochemistry/physics. GIBHOR keeps asking "how" we're here when what he really wants is "why" we're here <SNIP>.

Edited by Locknar:  Edited, breach of rule 9.
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Old 25th February 2013, 01:04 PM   #5154
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Originally Posted by indomitablespirit View Post
On the other hand no one has ever presented good fossil evidence for a fish becoming a man, a reptile a bird, a one celled bug a whale and on and on. So neither theory is any good. It is just the naturalistic one is more evidentiary based because we have ZERO evidence for the existence of GOd.
We DO, in fact, have plenty of good fossil evidence for all of those things. And DNA evidence.

And other forms of evidence that are not as fundamental, but are still consistent with what we would expect from Evolution: Branching Patterns of immunology, embryology, morphology, etc.

And, we can USE that data to solve real problems in the field of biology. We know the Theory of Evolution is... at least on the right track.... because otherwise, those solutions would all fail.

Claiming "So neither theory is any good." is actually in accurate. The naturalistic one is TONS of some good!
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Old 25th February 2013, 01:13 PM   #5155
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Originally Posted by indomitablespirit View Post
Condoms, IUDs, BCPs, surgical pregnancy terminations.
Machine guns, mustard gas, germ warfare, nuclear weapons.

Is there some point here?
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Old 25th February 2013, 01:24 PM   #5156
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Machine guns, mustard gas, germ warfare, nuclear weapons.

Is there some point here?
Probably a build up to a fundie fornication rant or some such.
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Old 25th February 2013, 01:33 PM   #5157
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Originally Posted by indomitablespirit View Post
There is no direct evidence for God as creator. We do not see him. We do not see her. We do not see an intelligence that we identify clearly as such create before our very eyes. We do see nature creating, granted not living systems, but we see nature creating. So we go with what we see. God needs to show us himself/herself and make a fish or something. then we might believe that nonsense. On the other hand no one has ever presented good fossil evidence for a fish becoming a man, a reptile a bird, a one celled bug a whale and on and on. So neither theory is any good. It is just the naturalistic one is more evidentiary based because we have ZERO evidence for the existence of GOd.
We've seen the fossil transitions through time and they indicate diversity from fish to man. Evidence such as homology and conservation of body plan along the lineages provides evidence for that but is also predicted through evolution. We don't see a fish become a man but we see a fish develop into terrestrial creatures (and aquatic; they don't go up a ladder, they branch like a tree) and those terrestrial creatures develop and diversify (genetically and phenotypically, but genes beget phenotype). We see that from fossils and evolution predicts that. There's no barrier to it to indicate it absolutely could not have happened so the Theory of Evolution stands. GIBHOR's insistence that novel genes can be made is just wrong on so many levels. Biochemistry would literally have to invalidate itself for GIBHOR to be correct. You have to understand that genes work in a cascade function not just a part of protein synthesis; genes, functional or otherwise are all regulatory to each other. Having duplication changes regulatory pathways which affects everything in development including survival from another gene. Because of this survival isn't a dichotomous outcome which GIBHOR needs to make his "Half a wing" stupidity "fly" (hawhaw). The genes for wings came from a continuum which then adapted for flight rather than being there "first". It could also work the other way as we see in Penguins which evolved from an ancestor with developed "wings" which it adapted for flippers as per its environment. We see that in the flightless cormorant too, a species which obviously evolved from a winged ancestor which flew.

Special creation never could explain this though unless special creation adopts Evolution as true and just admits that God didn't create man God created physics and then left the experiment on.
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Old 25th February 2013, 02:12 PM   #5158
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
When reading this thread, I can't help but imagine a youthful Gibhor coming to school without his homework, and giving the teacher an elaborate story about space aliens and atom bombs and interstellar time journeys. And when the teacher says "Baloney, you just didn't do it," mystification. "But it was such a good explanation! Much better than yours."
there isnt a more fantasious explanation, than the one, that natural mechanisms caused the universe into being
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Old 25th February 2013, 02:14 PM   #5159
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
You still didn't answer the question, GIBHOR. You keep avoiding it. If morals are universal, constant and objective, then is it immoral to kill your daughter for having sex outside of marriage?
If you can tell me ONE example of christian parents, that do this based on the teachings in the bible, i will answer your question.
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Old 25th February 2013, 02:16 PM   #5160
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Originally Posted by jof View Post
And if you are a Jerk your whole life, but let god into your life, are you still judged by your actions?
If Jesus has taken our sins upon himself, where is your legislation?
faith, without good deeds, is death.
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